Couples Therapy for Co-Hosts | Ep 60

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you're in your prime, which of course we mean midlife. You'll hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out. In short, all the things that shape us and continue to move us. I am your host, Mark Winter, a self conceived artist, entrepreneur, husband and father of two based in New York City. And I'm joined by my lovely co host, Paul Fottinger. Hey Paul. Paul (00:34) Hey, how's it going? I am your co- you're the host and I'm your co-host. We should talk about this, but maybe we do in this episode. I am an entrepreneur, former executive, Marc (00:42) Do you like how I threw that in? Paul (00:45) father of three, divorced. very conscious today about the topic we're gonna talk about. sitting in Vienna, in beautiful autumn in Vienna, and looking forward to our topic, Mark. What are we gonna talk about? Marc (00:59) Well, today's topic I think is gonna d one that is deeply personal and close to our hearts, which is starting a business with friends. Should you do it? How should you do it? What are lessons you can draw from it? I think we've got a lot to say in the topic and we're eager to join in. Exactly. Lessons, mistakes. There's a lot of bit of couples therapy in this one too. Paul (01:15) What did we do wrong? Yeah. How do we like working with each other? Yeah, it's it's f it's full of juice this episode. Enjoy. How's going, my friend? Marc (01:28) It is going great. It it's Paul (01:31) Yeah. Marc (01:31) so nice to see you, you know, and now that I'm officially on the on the other side of the pond. It's been kind of an epic week, man. Really crazy. like Paul (01:38) Man, yeah. So wrap the terminator around it right away. I I'm curious. What's the how can you I mean after last week's Terminator that you know you were mine, as you were going through Marc (01:50) Ha ha ha. Paul (01:52) the October first marathon. So what's what's it this week for you? Marc (01:56) So you know, I have I would like to to give a strong shout out, you know, f first of all to a lot of our our French fans that I've discovered there are many actually in Paris who've come up and said, Hey, what you guys are doing is really great. So part of me wants to shout them out, but that's a little self serving. But I will shout out a recommendation from one of our fr chef Fran French friends who also my Dear friend Christophe also recommended recommended me this restaurant. And we're gonna go there next time we're in Paris together. It's called Cheval d'Or. Amazing, Paul (02:33) Golden horse? Marc (02:34) amazing blend of kind of Asian, French technique, like, like, like, Paul (02:39) Ooh. Ooh. Marc (02:42) like, like foie gras on like rice cracker, brioche kind of thing. yeah. And and and that recommendation Paul (02:46) Did you go there? okay, you went there. Okay. That sounds awesome. Marc (02:51) was like so good. I was just like. You know, I slapped the table and I was like, I'm coming here with with Fatinger. It was that good. On the list. Paul (02:58) This is fantastic. I love it how you casually kind of like you graduated Marc (03:02) Ha. Paul (03:02) from an epic weekend in Munich to now you you taught us some it's very down to earth this podcast in fact. So guys, I'm gonna bring you to you know I I Marc (03:09) Yeah. Paul (03:10) I'm gonna at least try to make a bit of a counterpoint with my terminator of the week. Right? Because unlike you who Marc (03:17) please go ahead for go for it. Let's bougie, please. Paul (03:20) who just continued his debouchery and hedonistic lifestyle Marc (03:24) Ha ha. Paul (03:26) I went to the inside, you know. And no. In Marc (03:29) Okay, okay, good. Paul (03:31) all honesty, as a huge shout out to my friend Andy, who I don't think you know, who founded a year ago, this business network, which you know, started as a business network called Conscious, bringing to better together people who think that bringing consciousness and a more aware state of mind into business is worth doing. And he put together an event with about two hundred people. That was somehow a a mixture of a a networking business event and a retreat journey. Insane. Yeah. And and it was really, really, really cool. And I walked away with I don't know, lots of new impressions, people that I want to meet and and and talk more and an open heart. It was unbelievable. Huge shout out to him and the whole team. Yeah. Anyone Marc (04:16) Nice, nice nice Well Paul (04:21) in Vienna? And I think they're gonna expand too. Really. Marc (04:24) I love it. Paul (04:24) Huge shout out. Marc (04:24) Cool. Well, my idiot of the week is I gotta say, you know, there there are a lot Paul (04:31) Can only be yourself. Marc (04:32) of ex Well I gotta say, man, you Paul (04:36) I'm sorry, go ahead. Marc (04:37) know, Paris was really dirty, dirty this week. And I was there for for fashion happened to be during Fashion Week and also during the these school protests because apparently the schools are so shitty, they're protesting like how trash everywhere. Paul (04:48) They're also protesting all the time. But anyways, yeah. I mean for sure they should really Marc (04:51) Yeah, but trash everywhere. yeah. No one's picking it up. And you know, the just you just watching this stuff and I was like, my God, like like the how do you say this? Like the mass acceptance of mediocrity, you know, in that moment, just very paramount, you know. So I don't know if that's Parisian or just you just feel like something's gotta be done, you know, to it was just Paul (05:15) Yeah, something's off. Marc (05:16) yeah, something just felt ugh, yeah. Paul (05:18) You know, something's off is also kind of my my i idiotic thing of the week. I wanna come back to the now that I've Marc (05:24) Yeah. Paul (05:25) gone a bit to the inside again to the you know, more self reflected version of the idiot of the week, talking about the idiotic thing that I did that I did. And Marc (05:30) Yeah, please. External please. Yeah. Paul (05:34) it I it's just so typical though. It it actually now weaves perfectly back into your pair story. Because I really don't feel I feel like I'm coming up with something. And so last night, you know, my brother invited for a dinner with his, you know His best man and and so on, because it was his tenth wedding anniversary and obviously I went out and then I wanted to go home. And then I said, you know, I don't feel well, and my brother was like, Yeah, but you you know, every grown negroni can heal everything. It's like, no, actually you're right. So you know. One negroni later and a little bit. I got home and obviously it didn't help. You know, I mean that's my idiotic thing. And the i did the Marc (06:11) Yeah, yeah. You were up. Paul (06:12) the real idiocy of this is it's not the first time I'm trying, and it's not the first time it isn't working. So anyways. Marc (06:18) And it won't be the last, I can guarantee that, you know. Exactly. Well, one through line is Paul (06:19) It won't be the last either. Anyways. This week's topic Marc (06:25) yeah, I was gonna say one through line this week has been friendship. You know, we spent a lot of time with friends. As a matter of fact, I even met my old personal trainer in Paris for for a coffee who was Paul (06:38) I saw your picture. Marc (06:39) yeah, I was also building stuff and with some friends there and and we thought like actually a really valuable session that we've never really covered yet. talk about which will be really great is starting your own business with friends. Do you do it? Paul (06:53) Yes. Marc (06:53) How do you do it? Should you do it? Paul (06:57) Absolutely. Marc (06:58) all the above, etc. And I think you and I have got a lot to say about that. So Paul (07:03) Yes. We did speak about friends at work once, just for full disclosure, and if anybody wants to almost listen to the prequel of this episode. Marc (07:14) the prequel of that. Yeah, exactly. But this but this is this is something different. So like I think we've all been in a situation, I mean, you and I and I think I think a lot of our listeners, you know, where like you you've turned to a friend and you know, you like you like each other, et cetera. You're like, Hey, you why don't we start something? Why don't we create something? Wouldn't that be a lot of fun to hang out, et cetera? And and you know, we like each other, we we we think similarly, like we if we we just have the big idea, it's gonna be really, really great, you know. And I think doing that in your twenties versus doing this doing that in your forties with a lot of the wisdom and the experience that you have is a very different thing. But nonetheless, we've all you and I have all sort of like dabbled in it, right, with a with our feet. And I thought like it would be great to get some top line reflections from each other, right, as we think about kind of the journey of building or or dipping your toe in the pool of business with friends. Paul (08:11) Here you go. Alright. Nice. Let's do that. And it was for reference episode twelve. That's been a while, It's been a it's almost a year ago. That's crazy. It's Marc (08:17) a while. god, I remember episode twelve. yeah. That's Paul (08:21) But Mark, you just started a business number one, and you started with a friend, right? So how is that going? Marc (08:27) Yeah, it's true. Sort of Paul (08:29) Or is that or Marc (08:31) Okay, it's funny that you're asking me on this very day. So I just got noticed that Laura, my co-founder, also a dear friend, just gave birth to her her lovely daughter, Yay! Paul (08:45) yay, congratulations. Marc (08:47) Baby number two for her. So the family's getting much bigger. So really exciting. Congratulations, Laura, if you're listening to this, which you know, late at night it would be really funny if you weren't. Paul (08:56) You shouldn't. But anyways Marc (08:59) Cheers. Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I can't wait. Paul (09:00) finally have an excuse not to listen to Mark's voice, Laura. Please. Please. Yeah. Marc (09:08) no, I mean I think that is that is a good I'm gonna knock on wood, a good example of bringing a little bit of wisdom to a business that for for now up to date seems to be working really well. And to take you inside of it, like what gives us confidence. For this is it's a couple things. I think one is like we we're we're friends, but I wouldn't say we're we're not like the let's let's go out on a weekend and you know and get completely ripped and and bear our bear our secrets to each other type of of friends. I think you know we we Paul (09:46) Yeah. Marc (09:46) met through work, we grew a lot of respect through friendship, we've had a lot of fun, you know, at work. So, you know, built a friendship that way as well as trust. But we're also certainly friends and if we didn't work together we would happily meet each other out outside of work, I think, you know, but now we're we're actually partnering together. Paul (10:01) But I think you said one thing's really important, you met at work, right? So you you kind Marc (10:05) Mm-hmm. Paul (10:05) of your relationship started at work. Marc (10:07) Right. It started in professional context, you know? Right. Paul (10:10) In a professional context. yeah. And at work you were also kinda in the end on a similar level. Marc (10:16) you know, she was an intern and I was like I was I was strategy director. And then later I would say, yeah, I mean, I I had a I had a more senior position at this firm, but like I think we we saw each other as peers, you know. and also saw each other as having very really complementary capabilities, which I think is really key, which I'd love to get into. Like a lot of my failed like business ventures with friends is when we've had such overlapping Paul (10:42) Yeah, let's talk about those. Wha w w which I I don't know. I mean apart from ours, but what Marc (10:49) Well Paul (10:49) are the failed ones? Marc (10:51) well you know, I once tried to launch a custom suit making business. with No, it's a great idea. No, it was actually a genius idea. It's you know, a Paul (10:58) But maybe the idea was just stupid. I mean, okay, fair enough. Please keep on going. Yeah, great idea. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Marc (11:05) lot of my ideas are ahead of its time. You know, you'll come to know. Well well Paul (11:07) Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody did this back in two thousand five in Thailand and all over Southeast Asia, but it's okay. Marc (11:13) that's the whole point, 'cause I was living in Shanghai. And I was fascinated by the custom suit business. I said I should bring this to the States. I met a one of my friends who's a genius designer, like engineer, et cetera. I was like, like we can easily make that. Custom suits, China, like, like, you know, we'll just feed it to the factory, we'll get measurements, it'll all work out really perfectly. and what went wrong was a couple things. One is like, we are two big party friends. We've like every time we see each other, you know, it's You know, there's just look it escalates. Like and Paul (11:44) It escalated. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (11:47) our ideas and we're dreamers and we're big ideas and but we're just there's a lot of dreaming and when we finally got to the making, like it got way harder than we thought it would be, you know? And we didn't have the the gall or the transparency to name it up front, like when it wasn't working. And so we just kind of let it out there. You know, it was just you know, I was doing some stuff. Paul (12:14) Mm. Marc (12:14) You would just you know, and then I would say we wasted several months of our our our friendship capital, you know, burning on around this kind of idea of that was seemed really cool and just kind of fizzled out. that's one. And then there are others exploratory ideas that I often had also with friends, and I think there's a theme here of like we're just two alike, you know. I don't need another version of you, right? As a as a co if this is a scale up. Totally, you know, but it's a kind of a startup, it just doesn't work that way. And when I realized I've got two relationship makers, Mark and you know, another one, you know, on here and we're just gonna go build and talk and you know, bring people in, et cetera. Like who's the hands in all of this stuff, you know? in Paul (12:56) Yeah. Marc (12:56) addition to us. And that's when we we realized you can build a shallow idea pretty quickly, you know, versus that make sense? Does that rhyme with with a lot of your experiences? Paul (13:03) Fair enough. That is fair. That makes total sense. But it it rhymes with a lot of experience, although that's a a bit boring. I mean, I had a a great I would say business friendship and it it went beyond with, you know, Jörg who I I partnered with in in my last job before Wom as a consultant where we built a business together where we didn't know each other and it took a while to get closer and we were really always on on the same if you want seniority level. And it took some outside enemy to swear us in together and that worked really well. And then we worked r super well, also for the same reasons, because we have quite complementary skills and we both really had a great ability to talk about the the things that moved us. And from the very beginning we had almost a system that we would also speak together with a coach once a year about these things in a bigger group. And it c we s had somehow established a way also that at least once a year we would meet somewhere, go for a walk in the woods for hours. Talk, then have dinner, fantastic wine, which we we shared the love for good food, and would also say the things that bother us. And and that was Marc (14:11) Mm. Paul (14:11) just a very, very healthy, mature adult relationship, I think. You know, that that's also what helps us. Marc (14:16) And you're also in your late thirties when you did it, right? Paul (14:19) We were in our late 30s, ex exactly, and we both had our egos, but we were already back then able to say that, you know, in a sense, what what bugged us and so on and so Probably he put up with a lot of sh my shit and me the other way around because but I I think we both did because we had the feeling we couldn't do it without the other person. We needed the other person. And we wanted the other person to be there because it felt better Marc (14:39) That's right. Hmm. Paul (14:42) with them. So that's that's the one story that worked. So I really think that one of the distinctions is if you meet at work, that's a different kind of story. It is a I mean, now we're doing something together together again, so you could argue. but still I think It has a you know, it kind of started in a different way. The friendship is is is seeded in a different way. For us, for example. Marc (15:06) Yeah, it's it's it's it's brush it's brushed with professionalism. Yeah. Paul (15:09) Exactly. So then I have also things I mean when we work together, I mean sometimes you piss me off, like I told you the other day. I mean, it's episode sixty, we recorded sixty four, you've never been on time, you know. No, still not. I mean today great example, great excuse. Yeah, fantastic. Marc (15:22) Still not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm afraid to show my time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I always have I always have a great excuse. Exactly, you know. Don't worry. Paul (15:31) But I stopped bothering to be honest a little bit. It's it's okay. because I Marc (15:34) Yeah. I I broke you. Paul (15:36) also know I would never have so much fun and we work and we can also tell each other and it's that's okay. And Marc (15:40) Yeah, yeah, that's true. Paul (15:41) you call my pissiness out and and so on, so you know. Marc (15:44) You know, but but but not not not to to you know Paul (15:48) And let's talk about why this works and what isn't working. Maybe let's make this a little bit of a therapeutic call here. Marc (15:50) Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well like before we exactly not to like lube each other up here, you know, but but Paul (15:57) No no, we do the opposite now. Marc (15:59) to the Paul (16:01) It's like copper therapy. Marc (16:03) So bad. No, I look, I I think what one of the great joys that has been working with you, and I think it's a good example of this, is just like, hey, like like we we recognize and see the brilliance in each other. and like and trust that brilliance and and and let it go. And you know, I I I I think that is a very special, unique thing to go do. I mean, would you agree with that? 'Cause you're nodding. Paul (16:31) I'm I'm nodding in agreement. I'm I I I'm I'm nodding in agreement and I want Marc (16:32) Or you're like or is it like those Paul (16:35) to add that we're also good in calling ourselves out. I'm just thinking about what Marc (16:39) That's true. Paul (16:39) are the things that piss me off because I think that's way more interesting. What pisses you off about me? Marc (16:43) Yeah, yeah. You pissed off that I'm late. I'm my god, where do I start? I think like, you know, I I th I think you you have an incredible amount of self-doubt sometimes about whether an idea is good or not, right? And I'm like, dude, it doesn't matter. I think like it's I think click it's it's you're like, but is this really Paul (17:01) Okay. Marc (17:04) can we and I was like, No, no, there's a great angle here. I think people want to hear. I hear from our audiences all the time. I think that's a good one. Two is like when I am late. Which is by the way a degree of five to ten minutes most days, you know. Like the the f the the fester Paul (17:15) That's true. At a hundred percent of the occasion. Marc (17:18) the festering annoyance that you have, right? Like I have to loosen you up, charm you up, like massage you a little bit, correct some jokes, remind you remind you that we're all here Paul (17:25) It's true. You're very good at it. Marc (17:30) to have fun. This is not a business meeting, you know. Paul (17:36) you're doing this on purpose. So you're sweet talking me. Really? Really. You're lubing me every time. my god, I didn't notice. But I gotta give Marc (17:38) Yeah, yeah, I take you to the chiropractor. Yeah, exactly, of course. Yeah. A little every time. Yeah. yeah. Paul (17:46) you that you're very good at it. Marc (17:48) thank you. Yeah, exactly. We talk you know, I'm just like leaping in there and you know, I need to I know what you need, you know. I just you know, it's a p a big pump up. Yeah, it's great, right? Paul (17:56) I love it. This is perfect. You should write a i I want a short you know, a short manual on this so I can give it away to other people who work with me. Marc (18:05) Yeah. Yeah, You say, all right, cool. That's great. Paul (18:09) Okay, I know we I think we get the picture. Okay. Is there is there is there anything else? Marc (18:15) Listen, I really don't have my no, I think I think the the other the other like borderline annoying but I I have incredible respect for, and I think this is true. Like your Like anal rent, like you're saying, like, no, it's an episode every week, and it's at this time that it gets released, right? Is profound. It's just like like like this level of discipline I have nothing but respect for. And I'm like, I mean, you realize that I I brought like a fucking mic, like this camera setup, like to Paris, like multiple times. I'm bringing this to Europe because we can't be one day late. Like it has to be exactly. Or a few days late. Yeah, exactly. So Paul (18:55) It's true. It is true. But we can't. Marc (18:59) no, it's right. It's so like, you know, what do you do? Like like part of me is like if I were to like I'm afraid if it comes a day late, I would take away your superpower and and diminish it. And I I love it. I really do. It's just I respect it. And sometimes it's a pain in the ass, you know. But but that's what makes you you. Paul (19:17) no, I I I I I'm really grateful for putting up with this. And and Marc (19:24) Yeah. Paul (19:24) I'm really grateful that you also see the benefits of this because you would have never had sixty episodes ever. Yeah. Marc (19:27) I it a hundred percent. you would I would have thirty five casually, you know? And yeah No no no Exactly Paul (19:35) And actually I would have fun. But let's not talk about this. No well, thank you, Mark. This was very nice and open. See, this is great. I c as so apart from now I w I really want to give back now, may I? Marc (19:49) God. I was afraid. Paul (19:51) You should have asked me this, but I'm just going anyways. Apart from you being late, which usually I don't care because I kind of plan for it anyways. Yeah. But sometimes Marc (20:00) Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Paul (20:02) if I also have a tight day, it pisses me off, but that's fine. But there's one thing, and this is funny, but I think it's more o on my end on my end, but you trigger it sometimes. Sometimes you tell me, Hey Paul, I've had this great idea and I was like, Man, yeah, I know. I wrote it to you yesterday or two weeks ago or three months ago. It's like, I know. And you kind of pitch it to me like it was a God given insights that hit you on the mountain, you know exactly and you're like, hey Paul, Marc (20:26) This is so true. God Paul (20:30) what? You know, really, you know, we should do a podcast about that topic. really, yeah, it's been in the fucking Marc (20:34) Okay, listen. Paul (20:36) episode New Ideas list for twenty years. But yeah, great mark. Marc (20:40) that's that's that's so funny. I'm I'm gonna own that. You know, I have to say, Mike with with Laura, you're so you're not the only person that do this. Sometimes with Laura I was like I'm like, hey, we should write that person. Like and like here's exactly how we break it down. And she's like, What? We talked about this yesterday, right? And and either Yeah I exactly ex I'm just blacking out. Paul (21:01) So it could just be a function of your of your alcohol consumption too. Marc (21:08) I I I I'll tell you, life this way is making me black out. Paul (21:08) no, but I think this is as fun as this is, that's it actually, to be honest. That's it. The rest I just really appreciate because I really do think that I love this and I had a similar thing with with Jörg in a sense that we were Very different in the way we were as as as people and how especially in this case because Marc (21:29) Yes. Paul (21:29) we also had a team to lead, how we interacted with the teams and the team and the people and the roles we took. But in terms of values and Marc (21:36) Mm. Paul (21:37) in terms of how we looked at the business, we were extremely aligned. And that is very interesting that people so different, and I don't think we are that different actually, can be so aligned and on the principles of things and where they want to go take things. And think that is one thing that is extremely important. Marc (21:53) Yeah. No. Paul (21:53) already as a as a as a mid episode takeaway as we talk about this. But as I as we are so honest with each other, can I ask you s one other question? Sorry, Mike. Would Marc (22:02) Sure, Fiz. Paul (22:02) you ever work for me? Marc (22:05) Fuck no. I I like it's just like no, and you wouldn't work for me either. You would put you like yeah. And and Paul (22:10) No fuck no. That depends on how much you pay me. Marc (22:14) okay, there's that, right? It's like Mark, you know, I this is my venture, like here's here's five million to like, you know, come up with some good idea, obviously. No, but I Paul (22:21) Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Marc (22:24) think i in in a business context as like okay, here's here's the would you ever work for me if it was a public company? Paul (22:31) No, I wouldn't either. Marc (22:32) Yeah. No. Paul (22:33) I think the clear answer from both of us is fuck no. But why? Marc (22:35) Yeah. Well, I think like w it actually gets to to what some of the other dimensions of like w working with friends, right? I I just think like when right now there's equality. When as soon as you introduce some level of hierarchy, you know, God forbid if I have to like look at Paul's presentation, you know, that looks like like strategically correct but lacks like bold just fucking with you. Like no I gave you we strategically correct. No, but Or or or you read Mark's fluffery and said, What is this crap? Obviously we're playing play into caricatures here. But the but the but the hierarchy piece is is I think a real challenge. I would advise against it completely. I know that a lot of friends, you know, take on some of their friends on because they trust them inside their business. And I think like but and you know, obviously each situation could be really different, you know, given on the financial matter parameters, et cetera. But like if I had a choice and the freedom, no. And unless you had the the most kick ass fucking idea that I could not imagine that I didn't come up with and it's like it's just genius and you're like, like Paul, you're I need to come work for you. Like whatever it is, that's Paul (23:44) Mm. Marc (23:45) it's a different story. It's something of passion. Paul (23:47) Can I add another angle to this? Would you Marc (23:50) Please. Paul (23:52) would you be okay with me investing in your business? Marc (23:57) Yes. I think there's a difference. And and and the reason why it would be I believe in your strategic advice and counsel. And basically what you're saying is, Mark, I believe in your idea and your business so much that I'm putting my money behind it. and in return, you're gonna get my counsel, et cetera. And in return, if should you be s successful, I'm gonna benefit from that trust. Paul (24:24) Interesting. Marc (24:25) You know, like if Paul (24:27) Interesting. Marc (24:27) if you had a great idea that you were raising capital for and I loved, I would totally throw money on it. Would you Paul (24:32) Mm. Marc (24:33) accept it? Paul (24:36) Yeah. Marc (24:36) Friends and family? Yeah. Paul (24:37) Yeah. No. Interesting. There's statistics though that say that you know, found us that took a lot of money from friends and family, usually not that you know successful in raising for the next round, etc. But so th that's that's that interesting. I I was just thinking it on on my own. I give you a third question though. Would you hire a friend though to work for you? You know, like assume you are the CEO of a company or you know, you run a big department. Marc (25:02) Well, look, I mean, I'm hiring friends now. And Paul (25:06) Mm-hmm. Marc (25:08) even with Libra and I I would think like and there's a lot of trust that underpins it. There's a long friendship that goes underneath this where, you know, and even in some cases I find myself having to like clarify what the job is and what the role is, right? In a really great way. And and it it it makes things great and it can make things a little more complicated. Paul (25:31) Mm. Marc (25:32) You know, I'm not against it, but like at least it's not a permanent role. Would I like it's all fractional. Would I hire someone permanently right now who's a friend? Tough. I think it's so much easier if it's okay, if if it was equal complementary capabilities, equal cap level of capability, mindset, everything you want, one's a friend, what isn't, I want the one who isn't a friend to hire as a company. Like therefore I can have direct conversations when things go wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you agree with that? Paul (25:55) Really? Yeah. Question is can you judge it, right? Yeah. No, I it is really about w No and yes, I would say. In a sense, I think that If you work with a person you know and is a friend, it is great when it goes well because you know Marc (26:16) Yes. Paul (26:16) them, you have already trust, you don't have to build that up, you know their weaknesses, you know how to communicate, you can do Marc (26:21) Yes. Yes. Paul (26:22) with all of that, right? And you are much better at selecting this person because you know them. It's so hard, as we all know, to select people in whatever meticulous interview process. However, when things go badly and the performance sucks and you have to do something about it, it's it's really I I guess I've never done it, in fact. It must be really shit. I I did have to Marc (26:42) it's terrible. Paul (26:43) let I know actually it's not true. I did, I mean, not a very close friend, but a friend still, and it was not great that that we had to part ways in in a company because it and because it also it was the environment that that asked for it at the time. so that's the no part. But on the other hand, I I looked and spoke to quite a few friends in the course of my my career because I th thought they would fit in well and we could handle it. And you know what the difference was though? I think there's, as you said before, different levels of friendships. And I don't wanna put like this is a out of 10 friend. It's not about how good they are, but how close you are. So I think Marc (27:23) Yeah. Paul (27:24) there are very close friends like where we are, where I would be really you know, where I wouldn't do it because I would be afraid also and and because Marc (27:32) huh. Paul (27:32) we're also too close, as you said before, you know. Marc (27:34) Mm-hmm. Paul (27:35) We wouldn't be telling each other our deepest secrets. There's still kind of Marc (27:38) Mm-hmm. Paul (27:38) a distance. and in fact, this is now quoting a friend who I invested in his company. And we Marc (27:45) Mm. Paul (27:45) we just talked about it the other day ago. And he said, you know what? I I I like you invested in us because we know each other, we are friends, but it's not like we know, you know, our deepest secrets and fears, and that's okay, you know, because there is this trust and it works. and so I think this kind of r level of relationship can also keep a business relationship healthy because you can bring into the business relationship what should be there anyways, like the honest feedback, the non-confrontational talking to each other, the trying to make things work, but sometimes it doesn't. And actually the friendship pushes pushes it back in because you kind of have the Marc (28:22) Yes. Paul (28:23) feeling you can't just you know, say something or or not to take so much care of it. and I have had actually instances where I worked for a company and a friend was invested That I wouldn't say went badly, but it was hard on the friendship. It was really hard on the friendship for both of us because we didn't agree on on subject matters, you know, and on how how to handle different things Marc (28:46) Mm. Paul (28:47) or which way to go. And I I don't think we never really also were able to actually resolve it and say, you know, let's agree Marc (28:56) Interesting. Paul (28:56) to disagree. and we both might be right or might be wrong. Maybe also because one always had to be right. I don't know. Yeah. Difficult one. So I I guess a what I want to add on this. So one angle is the depth of the friendship. And Marc (29:12) Yeah. Paul (29:12) if it's not too deep, I actually prefer working with, working for, investing in, because there's trust. The trust is very important. And even if things go sideways, and that's the highest risk if this person works for you in a full time capacity, I would Marc (29:27) That's right. Paul (29:28) take that risk, but is is the one that I would consider the most intense in a most intense way. And then there's this other level of at the end of the day, that person, apart from complementary skills, needs to be a person that is easy and good to work with for you. Some people just don't work with you, you know, in a sense. Or you with them. It's not a thing that they're bad. It's just like some people you always fight get in a fight with. Some people piss you off. Some people trigger you, you know, and it might only be your shit, but they trigger you. And that's hard. Marc (30:02) Listen, I I'm with you a hundred percent. Paul (30:02) Did that ever happen to you? Marc (30:04) yeah. I mean, listen, gosh, I mean we can go off and off in this. Like like I I have friends who who I brought in, right, who are here's the thing. Especially I don't like if I know what it takes to do what they did can do when I'm asking them to do. I know what it takes and it takes them, you know, five X longer or like they're they're batting around, right? And I'm like Paul (30:26) Mm. Marc (30:27) I was like, sorry, this is this is a professional organization, this is not a friendship, right? And we have to and we have to delineate the two. We're here to kill it and not to fuck around Paul (30:38) Mm. Marc (30:38) as friends, et cetera. And I think that's very hard for some people. Because I think you and I are also, you know, when we're on, we're on. You know, and like we we we're we're here to to like it's not it we want to have fun, but it's also like to win it. And so when the ambition is very different for the others, like or the the flow is very different, that's it's just never it doesn't work the way, that same way. And so Paul (31:03) Yeah, and I think it's yeah. You know, we have this saying in German beim Geld hört die Freundschaft auf, which basically you know what it means, but for Marc (31:11) Yeah, Paul (31:12) not non German speaking listeners means friendship stops were with money. And it's kinda true if you think about it, and because I mean or or not, what do you think? I think it's true. Marc (31:27) I think so too. like I I wish listen, there there are some examples where I I've seen it work, you know, like really, really well. I mean it's funny. I was just talking to one of my distant cousins this morning. Like they founded the the salad chain sweet green, like where his brothers did, you know. And Paul (31:49) yeah, yeah. Marc (31:50) they're all doing like they're all friends. They're all doing well, they all different levels. Some's like the CEO, some some like you know, some play operational roles, like they're they're willing to step back and wean in. I think they had enough coaching on clarity of that. And there was obviously a lot of money involved that that thing went public. So they were smart enough to get ahead of that and not be woosy goosey. And I think there's hygiene when you're starting with a relationship with friends that's really, really critical to get right and never to take for van never to take for granted. So without the hygiene, the operating agreement, the clarity on expectations, like think like I mean, this is a given, but you know, I knew when we started this business that together that Laura was like, I'm gonna plan to have a second ki child and it's gonna be soon. You know, and I was like, You have to prepare yourself for that, but I'm all in. Great. Like that's a really I mean, that's the level of transparency up front is was was me too. Like I was like, I don't wanna start another consultancy. Like I want to build something that's radically different. Do you wanna join me on that? Yes. Let's go. There's something about shared ambition and and that hygiene esque piece. We want to be fifty fifty. We're not like we're not gonna we're gonna preserve that at all cost. There's there's there little quarry on bits of that and always working on it seems to me as as a big piece to tend to the the nature of that relationship. Do you agree with all this? I see you nod a lot. Paul (33:14) Mark, I'm almost thinking this is a perfect closing for this episode. And and it it also ties into what I said before, right? This friendship forces you to work harder on on the working relationship. And I think that's exactly the hygiene you just mentioned. And I think that's a beautiful Marc (33:27) That's right. That's right. Paul (33:29) takeaway among many in this, because I and it ties in also back in with the experience I just had about you know this Marc (33:37) Mm. Paul (33:37) on these two days about more conscious leadership because it's exactly that and more conscious working together. Because that's what it is. I Marc (33:44) Mm. Paul (33:44) mean, you you need to be more aware of what's going on, what's going on with the other person, invest in that. maybe have, you know, someone to help you with that, invest in regular whatever you do. You know, things that you would think might be, you know, normal anyways, but in fact Marc (34:00) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (34:02) they're sometimes not, and they sleep easier. And maybe the friendship makes you do that more. And and I think To always be sure that these are two different things, one is friendship and one is business. And it's very hard at sometimes to to to keep them apart. That's Marc (34:15) A hundred percent. Paul (34:17) why there is books and books and research about research about family businesses, right? Because it they are very hard to untie. And and and that's Marc (34:22) Gosh, exactly. Paul (34:25) what it is in in in in the most extreme form, right? Because you know, you don't choose your family, whereas you usually do choose your friends. So that is interesting. And in and and my last takeaway on this is it depends on the Person. I think that's a Marc (34:40) of course. Yeah. Paul (34:41) friend is not a friend. And Marc (34:45) Well, I wanna say I'm I with that said, I'm really glad that to be doing this podcast with you, Fatima, you know? that that is a good decision. Paul (34:54) Thank you. I a as you should be. And me too. Marc (34:58) Exactly. All right. Bye. Paul (35:02) Thank you.