guyslikeus EP13: let's try to define what success really means

Paul: [00:00:00] Welcome to guys like Us, the podcast that may seem too sophisticated sometimes, which is really something we never wanted to be or don't think we are. We're probably the least sophisticated people, uh, that we know. Exactly. Exactly. So, hey guys, we are in our last live session from New York podcasting room here, so it's great. Wouldn't be any Marc: better. It's been, it's been an awesome six days with you. Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Are you, are you, are you looking forward to, to me finally getting on that plane and leaving? Marc: I'll, I'll miss you, but my liver won't, you know? Paul: Yeah. But I think it's, I mean, is a dynamic. We're gonna break it [00:01:00] next time. Next time. We're gonna build in some detox days. Yeah. No, we're never gonna do that. That's, that's the biggest, that, that's some insane, insane bullshit. I mean, uh, but you know what, it's always fun to. You know, now we're gonna sound bou, bougie again. It's nice to drink nice things with you and share them and eat well, and like, I fully agree. That's, that's great. I fully great bond. Insane. Yeah. I brought a, a, you know, something from over, from Austria. What'd you bring again? Uh, yeah, it was a fun wine. Yeah. Yeah it was. It was, it was, it was a fun wine. It's called, um, what's it called? Patronage. Actually, it's a bit crazy. It is a bit stupid, but it is fun. It's a fun California wine. It was delicious. Of some wine makers in Austria who go into their vineyards and pick the ripest grapes very late in the year. And then they make this, but it's, you know, beautiful. It's, uh, not, you have to, don't have to drink this every day, but every once in a while to splurge is, is kind of fun. Yeah, [00:02:00] I was great. It's not like we follow it Marc: up. No, no, no. See, I, Paul: I wanted, I open this podcast safe, Marc: but you fell right into my trap. It's just so great. Paul: I did follow in your trap, but it doesn't mean I know. It's because we heard feedback yesterday, right? I mean, from a one listener and you said, I shouldn't listen to just one feedback, but you know that it's, uh, 'cause we're talking about this and, and wine and stuff. It's just something we like and it's something that we're into, but it doesn't mean anyone else has to, or, you know, especially great or, or, uh, you know, something that needs to be achieved at all. A hundred percent. Today's a beautiful day outside. Amazing. I mean. You always leave on good days. No, it's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's hard to leave today. I send you up. Yeah. It's very beautiful. Yeah. It's very beautiful outside. And we are here in this office today to record an episode about success. Okay. I thought All right. I thought, I mean, you, you were really Marc: keen to go on this one. I love it. Paul: Yeah, I was because, you know, I thought it was a nice kind of [00:03:00] opening into our, the more professional topics and, you know, seeing you here in your professional context, sitting, you know, with a jacket in that fancy office. Right? I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is like, um, are you successful, mark? Do you consider yourself Marc: successful? Geez, man. Well, can we like start with the softball, softball question? Um, I, uh, I believe that I have achieved some version of success. I feel somewhat successful. I don't feel like I've reached anywhere near my full potential, but, uh, but I feel like, yeah, I have some success. Why? Paul: Well, how do you measure that? Marc: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess the definitional measurement would be that, you know, I sit on a leadership team of a company, you know? So like you've achieved, and I guess it's just position. Yeah, well [00:04:00] it used to be, and it's changed for me too, but I would say like. Success is how many people report to you? How much, you know, acreage, you know, or, or, or square, square, kilo kilometers do you have in, uh, do you occupy in this space? Yes. Uh, you know, how big is your, your. Your length and, and impact all of that, right? Is a, is a big part of, um, what are traditional measurements of success, right? So high. It's the higher up the ladder you go. So, Paul: and that's fair enough. I, I, I mean that, that's great. See, this is fun. Um, I was just actually reminded of these, I was thinking of this. Obviously there's external, if you want measures or KPIs of success that we all know. Yeah. And whether we strive for doesn't. You think there's a different culturally between the US and Europe? Huge. Marc: Yeah. Oh, massive. Paul: I mean, you know both. I think both. Yes, very well. So what's, um, [00:05:00] okay, so sorry. The corner office and the, the acreage of the, the office made me think of that. Yeah. Right. And in every TV show, you know that every, you know, every lawyer show. Yeah. The corner office, the corner office floor, the high floor, and that you don't have in to that extent in Europe, for example. No, I mean, and maybe not anymore here either, but it's, it's, it's one of those cliche, almost hollywoody things that Totally. That you all know. Marc: And look, I mean, I can riff, I mean, there's a whole podcast series you could do on the difference between Europe, European, and American business culture. But one thing I'd say, just a couple of observations. I mean, obviously, um, the, and I'll divide it into simple framework. I think I used this before, another one around money and meaning. So in the US for sure. The jobs, like, uh, so much of your meaning, your life, meaning is tied to what you do for a living and your work, and the more you're compensated, right? In theory, right. The idea [00:06:00] is that the more meaning you feel more purpose, you've achieved, da, da da dah. I find in Europe it's been remarkably separated, you know? Uh, it's not that, it's that, you know, it's not that it doesn't exist, of course it does. Right? But I think. I think Europeans are much more protective about their, um, work. Like, you know, what's their, what work success is and what life success is, you know, and I think that they've really kind of bifurcated the two or more successful bifurcating the two. Paul: Okay. But when you, when you, I, I don't know, actually, I, I can't compare. Where Marc: do you fall on the spectrum? Paul: I think it also changed over time. I think, I mean, and now we're, you know, I think going towards what we had already discussed and, and you know, everyone who hasn't listened is welcome to tune into the, you know, I think is our second episode that we did on, um, the Good Life, right? And, and that's kind of like how do you balance, you know, success? I think, you know, I guess in, in all other life areas, uh, also [00:07:00] with work. And I think very often as you write, you so say. The work is the dominating one. Totally. But, and, and then other software, et cetera. And I think we've discussed it at length there. I I don't wanna go down that road again because I think still within the definition of success in your job, there is lots of of things. So you're talking about Marc: professional success, I was Paul: talking about professional success. Got it. And, and I think you, you already named a few things right there and what is the measure and how, how do you feel about it? And one is you said, you know, what is your rank, your title, and everything that comes with it, right? Because in the end, you know, whatever your office is or how many people you lead, that's all kind of, kind of like an offshoot of that, or, or a definition of that money is another one. Which brings me to a question, you know, do you think or do you feel, what if you were paid average? Right, but you had a really big title, you know, and really nice office and so on and or the other way around. You were, and, and had lots of people that report to you or the other. What Marc: makes you say that? Paul: [00:08:00] Keep going or the other way around where you are like, you know, you, you sit somewhere in your basement, but you make. Because let's say you are a trader and you're absolute genius and you, you know, reaping in millions. You know who, who you, you know, what would be what, if you looked at them, what would feel more successful to you? Which career? Which person? When you talked about them, Marc: you know, obviously the first, but I think, you know, professionally. I love reading and I love being inspiring. I love collaborating. I love working alongside brilliant minds and all those things. And as long as in the context we're having impact that's cool and worthwhile, then, then, you know, I, I'd rather have less and being a great environment with great people, et cetera, then have more Paul: so, so we're kind of establishing success does not equal money. [00:09:00] Marc: Yeah. And I think we're, we're. If success equaled money, let's be clear, right? We would have radically different jobs and pursuits than we had in the past if we believe that I would be, that's true. I would, I would've already, we would be compet competing hedge funds, you know, and that was our underlying belief. Paul: That is true. That's absolutely, and I, I, I agree with you that I also, if I look at others and I look at their jobs, and then usually you also don't know what people are making. You kind of have an idea. Right? Right. And you look at what they do and the impact they have and you know what they move. And it's actually probably more about the perceived level of power, I guess, you know, you could call that right. Or influence, uh, someone has, and. That is, you know, but they're all finding enough external measures, right? Yep. Of success. Yep. And have they, I mean, when you think back of your, you know, your first jobs, what was that, you [00:10:00] know, a topic for you? Am I successful? Is it enough? What? What did you look at? Marc: Look, I think earlier my career, um, I was always, I was just in full learning mode. I never believed when my first job started is where I was gonna end, you know? And, you know, I started my job. I had a very kicks job actually, it. Almost your, your version of of, of version one. Um, so it was in publishing, it was at Random House. I, you know, I'm very happy to share with this part. I was making $30,000 a year in New York City in 2000. It was, it was like brutal. I, I still remember. Because I was too proud to like ask my parents for money or whatever, you know, I was living in a, you know, somewhere in Hell's Kitchen, some shitty apartment, and I would, you know, eat on certain days by whatever soups were on sale at the far at the pharmacy. Because, you know, I just, well also, I was, I was also because I, whatever I went, I had soup. I had money for beers with friends, you know, like this kind of thing, [00:11:00] you know? It wasn't like I was starving. Yeah. But I was definitely paycheck to paycheck. You know, the value proposition, I think for those companies were like, Hey, guess what? It's a fancy, amazing office. You know, it's, you get to work on books, you know, and the very first book I worked on was the Da Vinci Code, you know, it was crazy, you know, and I never, I felt like I had a successful experience. Did you feel back then already? I mean, I knew when the Da Vinci Code launched that like. It's probably it for me, you know? And like, like it's hard for me to imagine a bigger book being part of a bigger book in my career, you know? Paul: Mm. Marc: I already felt that. And, um. I, I don't even think there's been a bigger book. I mean, outside of the Harry Potters, maybe one or two. Like since that kind of like, everyone remembers that, that kind of thing. And, um, I, but I never thought, oh, I just had a successful career. I just felt like, oh, it was, uh, that was an incredible experience. I gotta be part of that story, you [00:12:00] know? And, um, onto the next thing you know, I think we started to feel success. Is when you're given more of responsibility. Uh, and that's when, um. You know, when you have people reporting to you, when you have a p and l to run, when you have, like, when you feel the way, the real implications to you fucking up, you know, versus playing, you know, uh, uh, versus being a bit part player. So, you know, to make it real, like at the back to this Da Vinci code example, you know, I was a publicist, you know, at that point in time I was doing a rotation and you know, I was calling up, uh. Christian radio people, uh, you know, in the Midwest saying, you're never gonna believe there's this crazy book, and it's just Jesus am Mayor. It's a great story, you know, and Absolutely. And the book was launched the, the day the US invaded Iraq, which, anyway, um, but like, if I fucked that up, right, if I called no one, the book would've been fine, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's, it's just, [00:13:00] it was okay if I was responsible for launching that different story, you know? And yeah, Paul: I mean, I do. I remember that time of my career, my fir very first job where being successful was very important to me. And, and it, I guess because you kind of go outta university and it starts with what kind of job you're getting, right? Are you working for, and then I went in consulting and I didn't go into the big. You know, the big, uh, McKinsey pain, they, they didn't want me back then BCG so ended up, which was great with KPMG, right? We already, you have some friends of your school that go, you know, have those bigger jobs and they're already making 40% more. And you know what they're making because Eddie tell you fuckers. And, and, and be, you know Right. That those are the best paying jobs. And I remember very wi vividly. I started in, in, in KPMG as a, you know, actually as an intern. 'cause I wanted to see how it was. And after three months, my partner back then he asked me this and I mean, this intern thing, [00:14:00] bullshit. That you wanna start like, right. You know, I say Okay, then, then three months later, I already had the feeling it wasn't enough. Hmm. And I, I, I went out and I applied for other jobs and I got a job at a local investment bank. Look at it. And they would've paid me. I think 50% more basically, or 30% more. Right? Right. So I went back and I really thought about this, and then this very senior partner, he took me in and he said, listen to me, right? So I was like, you can either go and work for this shitty investment bank that no one knows outside of Vienna. I mean, this. They might pay you better and so on, or you stay with us, at least we're known worldwide. If you ever wanna do an BA or something, that's a great brand and you have to think it a little bit more long term, right? I mean, know it's not what happens now. It is what happens over the next, you know, 10, 15 years that looked at him. It's like to me, I mean, I did what he said. I stayed and it was, it was a great choice, but I just remember how very short term focused I was on. On looking, you know, around me and who went to university with me and what kind of jobs [00:15:00] they had and what they did and how much responsibility and, uh, and. I didn't feel comfortable in that learning job in the beginning, while I had really good people around me. Also my dad back then who, you know, were like, listen, this doesn't matter how much you make right now, it might not be much. And it wasn't, to be honest. Right, right. Uh, but that's not what it was also about, I think it was two, four a month or something, you know, that was my first Saturday. Ouch. Mm-hmm. You didn't jump very far, but anyways, you know, it, it was this very much, what's your title? So are you a consultant or a senior consultant? Oh my god. You know, like all these things. And um, and that stayed like this for a while because you're also, I guess in that the system is like this, you know, a promotion, a better title, more money, Marc: you know, you know, well. If you have a boss, you know, you wanna rise up to when you barely, barely have a boss. You know? And I [00:16:00] think, um, I feel, I feel like most people are kind of like that or they want freedom, you know, or some, some, some feeling of autonomy. I think that comes with success. You know? 'cause you have trust or you have, uh, a, a move forward. That's my feeling. I'm not, I could be wrong. That's certainly what I want. Uh, but I, I think, um. Measurement, like the nice things about titles for people, and I, and I totally understand why we have them, is because, yeah, they're nice benchmarks for skillset and reward, but also it's like it helps people know where they are, you know, in this kind of existential type of, you know. Thing called a career. Like what, what you've achieved, you, you've achieved something, Paul: right? Yes. But it is, it is a comparison thing, right? At the end of the day, and I remembered we had, that was an interesting one. Um, when, when we, when I worked at Woman, we bought in, you know, our, you know, US affiliate, which, you know, was kind of a merger and then we thought [00:17:00] of a worldwide title. Kind of system because we didn't have one. It was a, you know, startup that was eight years old. So, you know, we had titles left and right and front and center, and it was very important to the US to have certain titles, which we didn't, didn't do because a VP for example, we don't have that in Europe, so we didn't do it. I mean, but now we have, we then had it in the end. But it was a big thing that we didn't have bigger titles for our US colleagues. And we somehow settled, I guess, somewhere in the middle of it. Okay. Um, but it was a, it was not a fight, but it was actually almost difficult to solve because he wanted unified and then, and it was exactly like this. We didn't want to give, you know, the US different titles than Europe because then the Europeans would be, but why are they called like this? But they do the same job. It was like all about this nightmare is a nightmare and is actually almost like a no-win zone. Well it's, Marc: it's the Maslow's hierarchy rewards and recognition. Right. You know how. You know, how we need that in the top part and how essential that is to keep us motivated, to keep us engaged, to keep, make us feel [00:18:00] seen and all that. I'm fascinated by that story though, because, uh, I, I could imagine the mass confusion and also, uh, insurance aur like the call for equity, right? Yes. Across each of that. Yes. Yeah. Paul: And then, and which is a very difficult one when you. Are looking at the same thing through different cultural lenses and experiences. Right, right. That's right. I mean, a hundred percent. So it's, it, it, well, I don't know at, at one point and I feel it didn't matter anymore. As soon as it's all settled and people understand, you know, what is really. Connected to it, but it still, it's something. It's something, and it is, it is less when people look inside the company. It's more important when they look outside and I understand because then you want to apply for your next job and it's worth something that when you, when you were a director or you know, something like that. Marc: Well, I have, I have a question for you. When was the time in your career that you felt most successful? Was there a moment or a [00:19:00] time? Paul: Yes. I think it's, when I, when I became CEO of womb, I think I felt most successful because it was always a dream of mine to do that job. Um, or, and I always thought it would be great, and that's when I felt most successful. Probably wasn't though the best time of my career, to be honest, because it was hard and it was lots of work and lots of different, it was brutal. But yes, that's when I felt most successful. I guess also when I, before that, when I became partner and senior partner in the P, that was also great. Yeah. I was quite young then. My late thirties, and there was, but it's again, that right. It was more comparative, uh, uh, as compared to others, than, than did I love the job back then or did I make a killing? Not really. Mm-hmm. Right. I mean, I was making good money check. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did I love it? No, actually no. Mm. Didn't love it. Mm. So much. Lots of pressure, always selling. You know how it is, right? You never have enough. And if you have, uh, [00:20:00] neither enough clients, nor enough people, so it's either one of those, no God. So that was somehow, you know that, right? So it was somehow tough. And that's why what I find interesting, we talked a lot of about, a lot of external measures. Yeah. And, and I think what's nice is I also agree with you, it's not money. Money is not the definition of success. Um, it is obviously one, I think it is obviously more, it is almost more career and, and, and these kind and the things that you actually others see, right? And that's a title and it might and so on. And then so if you scratch all of that, and it was a question my coach gave me and, and, and right at the beginning of my sabbatical. I was about to reorient myself or think about what I would do next, and he was like, imagine there was no money and no recognition of any kind for what you do. You know? How would you define success? Repeat that again. Imagine. Imagine there was no money and no recognition and no [00:21:00] recogni. Meaning no title, no office, no. Got it, got it. No recognition. No one would give a shit. What would you do? What would you do? Right. And also, you know, exactly. What would you do and how would you define success then, for you? When would you feel happy? Right. I mean, what is, you know? Hmm? Do you have an answer? Uh, no. I'm asking you. Marc: Fucking asshole. You know, I, I think, um, the short answer to this is that I would be. Writing or bringing stories that I have in my crazy little brain more to life. And, you know, I was, I was for context for, for those, it was, I was a creative writing major. I used to love writing books, et cetera, you know, turns out, and obviously spent some time in the publishing industry enough to know, God damn, that's the hard ass business. And I didn't wanna be poor, you know, and I would've been poor for a long time. Um, and so I, I [00:22:00] saw. A job and an industry where I could still be creative and have big ideas and, and bring them to life in amazing ways, et cetera. But you know, if you ask me what's the thing I would love to spend more time do most it would be that. Paul: Yeah. And Marc: why, because it makes you feel, I love bringing. I like bringing ideas and things to, I hate this phrase, bringing them to life. I like make, I like making shit, you know? And I, and I like, and I like, and it's funny, you know, I, I've written a bunch of television pilots, et cetera, and I'm still in, in development, hell with that. But, you know, the joy of like, oh, here's a story I would, I have in my head. And then to, and connecting that, to actually writing it and bringing it and fine tuning the dialogue, laughing at my own jokes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like sharing it with people. And they say, get the feedback and say it's great, and then you go. I dunno, we're so, we're a storytelling species, so I feel like putting seconds out people, you know, my first Paul: thought back then was I saw myself [00:23:00] somewhere in the countryside, in a, maybe in a beautiful old farmhouse with a huge table, you know, and open woodworking. Yeah. A little bit of woodworking, but more. Cooking, you know, having people around, you know, well, Marc: that's the outcome of my work. You can come unless you wanna, unless you wanna open a restaurant, you can. That's you can Paul: come. No, but that it was, that, it was about, you know, spending time with the people I love, with my kids running around, you know, and, and, and all of this. I think, I guess so it, it became quite melancholic kind of view. It's interesting then to go deeper and say, okay, why is that? What is it that you do that, that you like? Right? Because the first thing is I think, is we get a picture and we get a, you know, get a thing, but then the, you know, or an idea, but to go a bit deeper and say, okay, what does it make you feel? What is it that you do to really understand, you know what, what then could be something. That we can do that makes us feel successful in a world where money matters, because we just need [00:24:00] income to live. Right? Yeah. Unfortunately, that's the case. Yeah. That we want to afford and that we wanna do. And, and that's life. I mean, tough luck, but I thought it's an interesting, it was an interesting thought experiment to kind of get to the core of that, Marc: you know? Uh, it's, it's a good one. It, it's funny, like I, I have a, I have, um, a close friend and, um, one, uh, uh, and he's in the, he's uh, one of the great. Minds and robotics and AI here, and if he's listening, you know Anthony know who you are. And I'm always fascinated. I mean this admirable, like the joy, like he's so queer about his purpose. And, and it's professional purpose. He is like, my life is gonna be, is dedicated to robotics. I think the future is about humans plus robotics and how robotics can help people, you know, not just businesses. And that's what I'm dedicating my life to do and I'm, I'm gonna reject things that are meaningful. And the funny thing is, is that. You know, back to, I was joking with Paul [00:25:00] before we started recording. You know, I, I love the German language to encapsulate, you know, like feelings or emotions and everyone know it's like zeitgeist or, or you know, rem shame and this kind of thing. Um, the joy of seeing no to a big paycheck. 'cause you know, it's not, yeah, it. It's, it's a big piece of it. Anyway, Anthony has like, has told me stories where he is like, yeah, I, I turned down this offer. I've never seen a paycheck bigger than that in my life. But I said, no. Right? And, and he's, he has like three or four of those stories. And not that he is successful as he is, obviously he's, he's choosing this path except about that clarity to like turn down something that he is like, this is deviating me a deviation from what I'm here to do. Or it's a, or it's not the right manifestation of it, you know? Paul: Yeah, absolutely. That's great if you have that right. Marc: Yeah, I find that I would like to get to that one. Paul: Also in the internal measures, and we're not even going [00:26:00] now into work life balance and stuff. But in a sense it's like, do I feel a sense of purpose? I had a conversation this morning with a former employee who's now in New York, he's like, you know what? I'm doing a job right now and I don't feel, I feel like I've helped a lot of, you know, very affluent, you know, very rich companies to make more money off of consumers. And I kind of, you know, feel it's a bit. Soulless and I want to do something with more purpose. Um, that's one thing, right? It's the purpose. The other thing is, do I have fun doing what I do? A hundred percent right? Do I like what I'm doing right or do I not like it? And, and, and I feel, and I, let's say if you do something that's totally outside of what you like doing or your comfort zone or your tenants is hard to. Have any of the, the, the external success factors checked, like money and status, because I think you suck right? Usually at that. Yeah. But, but it doesn't mean that, you know, you can be successful, you know, in your career and do things, but still do things that you actually don't really, really love or like. Right. And, and actually I think. Many [00:27:00] people are like this. Mm. And, and would still say, you know, I'm don't think, Marc: Hmm. Don't you think most, Paul: are I Marc: most, yes. Sorry. Language called I've never, I mean, yes. Yes. Let's put it this way. I've never met a happy warrior. Never in my life. But that's, that's, that's cross. I, I mean, I'm picking No, I mean, I'm, I'm picking on them right. A little bit. Right. I, I disagree, but fine, but, okay. And I'm not have, I'm not, I'm not calling them out saying, like, you, you made the wrong choice. Like, God forbid, like, like it's. Also a responsible choice, A success, like you could say, like, Hey, I have a talent, I've, I have, I have, um, uh, you know, I'm good in negotiations and our arbitration. Like, like, it's an amazing way to feed my family. And Paul: ties a little bit back to the, you know, the conversation we had on, on, on, um. Superpowers. Yeah. Right. In a sense. So I guess, right. If you, if you really then find your superpower and you can act accordingly, then o off you go. Right? I think then you're gonna feel the, the thing is [00:28:00] just, I, I think we're so wired to those external success measures that we don't quite have the, I don't think the sensory, you know, the sensors anymore to feel, to actually feel those less. Tangible legs, less externally validated things like, ah, I'm actually, I actually like what I'm doing. I like to get up in the morning. I think we do feel that when it gets so bad, right, that we don't like to get up in the morning anymore. And when we get close to, I don't know, burnouts, et cetera, ppe, which we also all know, but now it's not about too much work. It's about by doing work that doesn't fill your cup. Marc: I, um, I think if this podcast is designed to reframe for people how to think about success or if we're, we're, we're just unpacking it ourselves. Uh, I, I mean, I think it's, it should be like, I, I just wanna be really clear 'cause I, yeah. I made a [00:29:00] comment not knowing how to be wires and I, I'll stand by that, but. Uh, I'm walking back, but I, I also want to acknowledge it's a fair choice to pursue careers like that, that are rewarding, at least, at the very least financially. Uh, but, and I think there we should be really real about trade offs that people make, you know, in pursuit of that. And, um, you know, partners at amazing law firms who are, you know, great people on the outside, you know, like they're awesome. You know, like, um, I. I'm pretty sure they don't like their job, but I'm also pretty sure they don't mind what they're bringing home. You know, and they're okay with that kind of trade off and they're rising through, through that kind of success. I don't know if I'm bringing your conversation where, where you want to right now, but I think it's worth, I think it's worth naming and, you know, like you're, we're in New York, right? Look, I look, you look at downtown just full, the, the financial capital of the world, roughly. Right? And also it's legal capital, right? [00:30:00] I'm pretty sure most of those people aren't happy, you know, and this is me pontificating here, but like, I think they're happy with what they take, but are considered successful. That is so, and I think Paul: that, that, that's where, that's the tension I'm trying to go. So I guess that, I mean, obviously those external success measures and we, you know, everyone who's listened to this is clear. I think that hasn't, that has no. I think it's very little. It doesn't carry you very far. No, it doesn't carry you very far. Right. I mean, it's not like, other than if it was like this, it's very successful. Usually, you know, people that have a burnout are usually very successful and the reason why the external success didn't carry them was because it's not enough. I think it's not enough. And that's, that's a big one. So to me, and I wanna ask this question, but I'm gonna answer it myself first, is how. The, the, these big, the two big topics that are in my mind when I think about success is a, how we define it and what am I, how do I define it for me personally, what, what is success? Mm-hmm. And, [00:31:00] and it's funny because if I kind of try to, uh, put the, take the money away and the recognition. But stay in the same job, not go down in a dreamy, dreamy land where I can make steak every night for my friends and drink wine. You know? So that, that would be my dream. But it's not that, that where I do whatever I like to do, which is, you know, work with people, work on projects, work on companies, right? But it wouldn't be. No one would be there judging somehow my success by giving me a paycheck or by, you know, whatever evaluating the company, blah, blah, blah. Would, how would then I feel, when would I feel successful? And to me it would be if I. Achieve certain goals I set to myself for the business. I think we haven't talked about that. So, you know, you want to launch a new product, you launch that product, you want people to develop, you see them developing. That was always actually the feeling where I felt the most successful. Like, like where I really felt joy coming up. Where when I saw that people rose to the [00:32:00] occasion, they developed, they became, you know, better professionals, you know, whatever. Um, those are the things and I find. It's worth identifying those when you go through your career and, and saying, okay, those are the things that make me tick. Because I also think that when you follow those impulses, you will be successful also on the external merit peace, a IE, someone's gonna pay you. That's number one, right? So that's really defining your internal KPIs if you want of success. And the second one is, is the concept of time. Marc: Now we're getting interesting. Paul: Go for it. I think I was always also in comparison to, you know, my group of friends or, you know, peers rather successful quick in, in, in, in my, you know, kind of career and so on. Also, you know, fell on my face, you know, then later, but. Um, [00:33:00] but then I also see people that five, six years ago where I thought, okay, you know, they're doing an okay job. They're just stuck with it. And they, you know, rose to really nice positions within their companies. They're very successful financially, power-wise, but also happy in what they do. And I wouldn't say they just set it out, but maybe they didn't look so much left and right. Um. Or we're not concerned by that. And then just sometimes it compounds, you know, it's also people that didn't jump around in companies but stated one just put in the good work, you know, and things happened for them and happened very nicely. I think this feeling of wanting everything and, and looking left and right and said, oh, damn, my best friend just got the senior in front of the manager or whatever. Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Paul: Doesn't matter. 'cause in a few years down the road, who gives a shit? It's about what you learn, who are you exposed to, what your network is. So I find, you know, the people that look at those things rather than the titles over time, that pays off. So [00:34:00] that's, that's, that's my concept of, of time. Marc: That's helpful. I agree. Look, I think if you find what, if what you're exceptional at. It goes back to, you said the superpower like aligns to like something that the market wants or needs. You're golden in a great way. Like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just need to figure, but also, you know, in the context of an organization in some way, you know, like, I think, but, but you have to be seen by, you know, your boss or leader to go do that. You know? I think I'm like. I'm pretty sure I, I pretty fast in this company. The leadership thing, I think partly because. I'm, I'm an extrovert in a culture of, of introverts, you know, and like, okay, great. We need one of those to run business development. You know? So, so like, I, you know, it was a need that it was helping, helping out, and I actually never, and I'm terrible at asking for raises or promotions or anything else like that, but, you know, but I'm really [00:35:00] good at following my passion and, and you know, that just tapped into something I love to do, um, and still love to do, you know, so it's, it's a, it's a. Beautiful thing when those, when those stars align, you know, moving forward. Um, but I, but I didn't chase the money, you know, as much as like many of the other friends as you're smiling because he is like, no, he didn't. No, we did. But like, I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't my motivations for, for impact. I mean, otherwise I would've left, you know, a long time ago. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, but the time time is interesting because I think, you know, let me add another dimension to this courage. I actually think, like, you know, we, we. Grow up, we go, you know, we're putting systems from education into, you know, professional right? And education system tells us, okay, you know, you're smart enough, you grow up a level, you know, so like already ingrained, you know, [00:36:00] you, you know, you're succeeded when you've got high marks, when you pass onto the next grade, et cetera. So that behavior that we're behavior is ingrained in us and we carry that forward right to, to our professional. Um. Careers. It's, it's the most natural thing in the world, right? You just wanna, every few years you wanna level up, you wanna get a little more money, da da. And at the same time, I feel the way the professional systems are set up do not allow you to, to very often do not allow you, or very often do not allow you to. Take what you're actually remarkably great at and build a business around that. You know, because they're have a need. You know, they need a fractional, they need to do x, y, a fractional frac, A fractional piece of your skillset set isn't required. Please do that in that slot, et cetera. And if you wanna master that fractional slot and you could build a great career of it, that's great, but just know, and I think. For us. Like be aware that, that that's what that system is asking you to do. And I think the courage piece is where I was going. It's like, [00:37:00] this is where the entrepreneurial part comes in and you know, others like for success. That's what I really admire about, about many entrepreneurs is that, um, the idea of like, let me just connect with my passion with what I love. Right. Apply the metric of time and hopefully some investors will see my passion, throw that in there and it compounds and then it'll come back. You know, and maybe actually that's the answer I would say like, Paul: yeah, I'm just thinking if we just said something so logical and maybe we are just caught in that, that, you know, you know, obviously. You're successful in your job when you like what you're doing. Duh. Yeah. Duh. Exactly. Duh. But may. But yeah. But maybe everyone should look through that lens at what they're doing right now. Um. When you don't chase short term, you know, kind of, uh, rewards like a promotion or something just for the fuck of it because it's not gonna get you an error. It's not gonna make you any happier, by the way. Um, nothing changes really. [00:38:00] Um, from a certain level of money on up to some crazy money, it also doesn't change anything. Usually you just usually start spending more on the same stuff. I mean, you can always get, do nicer vacations, nicer cars, nicer wines, but at the end it's the same shit, right? Every morning. Yeah. Every, no from a very, from obviously from a very privileged level onwards, but still, you know, that's, that's where, where, you know, many people chase after that next commercial or that next job. And, and now I want to tie it back to the good life, because I don't think you can look at it. Because I think to me now success apart from, you know, am I happy with my job, right? And what I'm doing is also does it allow me to, you know, fill the cups in all the other sections of my life as well? Mm-hmm. For me, very important. Do I see my kids enough? Yeah, yeah. Do I have time for them? Do I have time for my hobbies? Do I have time for sports? Do I have time for my [00:39:00] friends? Do I have time, you know, for other things for myself to go in the woods alone and you know, look at the trees basically. And I guess if you want to tie it back to that is a job that gives you. Said in the very beginning, you know, time or freedom or whatever you need to make those things happen. You Marc: know, I, I have. Ex mentor who's, I guess maybe a mentor and a coach now. And he has, he have this thing, he likes to say that work is life. You know, people talk about work life balance. I reject that notion, you know, you, you're living and you're working. It's your life, you know? Um, which is an interesting provocation, you know, to and as, uh, as a good coach. And I think, you know, when we talked about success, at the very least, I think a successful career is also the one that allows you to. To have that level of ba I mean, we're defining it for ourselves here, right? Yes. In this moment, right? Like, it, it, of course, it's about some financial reward that's [00:40:00] assumed, some sell status. You've, you've had some type of impact and you've also got to see your kids. You've got to go like, spend meaningful time, you know, with your friends and, you know, create the balance, you know, in between everything that's. That's, that's helpful. And, you know, and how, where, where the weight shift on that scale, you know, is different for everyone. But, um, that to me feels like a, a very solid equation to look at. Yes. As for success. Paul: And the more you let go of what is an external validation Yes. The better it is. Totally. 'cause actually no one gives, you know, Marc: yeah. I wanna close or, yeah. Yeah, we're about to close. Go ahead. Yeah, that was, you was, uh, with, um, I don't know what happened to my, something disappeared here, but I do want to close with, you know, we, we got some photos yesterday. You know, photographer, you know, he used to work here and, you know, he, he left, you know, to pursue. He's like, you know what, actually, like, I'm a decent strategist, but I'm [00:41:00] an even better photographer. Awesome. Yeah. Like the Awesome. Yeah. That's like, I'll, I'll do, and I dunno, there's something just. You know, you could see the passion yesterday. You could see the talent. Super queer Paul: man. I mean, it is a perfect segue also 'cause he, he was my terminator. Yeah, I was calling him out as the Terminator because he absolutely crushed it yesterday in our photos. I mean, we did a photo shoot yesterday and you'd probably see it very soon, or hopefully see it very soon in our podcast artwork. And it was super fun and you could see the passion, the talent. Terminated that. Cheers. David D. Full on. David D. Amazing. Marc: Exactly. Amazing. Paul: Do you have any other input on Terminators? Anything happened that you would like to call out? Marc: Gosh, man, I think I need to pass. Like we, we've been, yeah, Paul: we've been talking so much. We've been talking Marc: so much about that stuff. I also have to say the last are great, Paul: the last 24 hours didn't, I mean, the biggest idiot in the last 24 hours was myself again. You know, I don't remember what I did, but I'm sure I did something stupid. [00:42:00] Well, you know, look as idiot free. I had an idiot free day. An Marc: idiot free day is not a bad thing. Yeah, but hey, listen. What a fun six days it was to record with you live indeed in person. Hopefully we, we now we're gonna Paul: go back to, to, uh, remote and all the, the fun of remote timing and me being, you know, too tired. You're not. Being in the evening mood yet, it's really not easy. I mean, it's not a joke, the six hour time dnce, it's not. But you find the same also kind of state of mind and kind of like vibe that you're in. Right. I, I agree. That I find is the biggest one. I, well, that's why, Marc: well, that's why we always started with drinks back then. I think we said out. Yeah. Which is Paul: also difficult because it was like three in the A for you, which, you know, frankly in an office is quite. Well, it was, well that's a, the definition of success that you can exactly go around in your office with a glass of wine and drink. Listen, be Marc: being, uh, yeah, exactly. And me maybe 9:00 Paul: PM sometimes was already too late actually to geez, Marc: to, to get. Well, listen, we're gonna, we're gonna get, um, we're, we're gonna go back, um, separate a little bit. Maybe we'll come back again [00:43:00] once or t once more before the end of the year at least. That'd be awesome. I love it. We'll figure it out. But, um, thanks everyone for listening. Thank you. See you soon.