Why Two Sleep-Obsessed Guys Still Can't Sleep | Ep 39

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, and how can you be new to this podcast already? Come on. This is an amazing podcast about the things that you start thinking about when you're in your prime, you know, midlife, you hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, which I had one last night, and in short things, all the things that shape us and continue to move us. And in today's episode, it is a very special episode because this is a episode about sleep or lack of it or how we manage it. How you doing, Paul? Paul (00:39) I'm tired. Good morning. Marc (00:43) I'm trying to elevate you with my energy. Well, ⁓ your host today is Mark Winter. I am a entrepreneur, a artist in some cases, a father of two, and ⁓ right now awake because I poured myself an extra dose of coffee in my French press. And I'm joined here by my dear friend Paul in his fancy new cap. Hello, Paul. Paul (01:10) Exactly, my fancy new cab Marc (01:11) because our merch is so ridiculously cool now. And people are asking for it. Can't wait. Paul (01:14) It is very fucking cool. Okay, well now I have to order them. Anyways, my name is Paul. I'm your co-host here calling in from Vienna. Who am I? I would say a usually a very good sleeper, not these days. And we're going to get into this. A father of three, an entrepreneur, former CEO, a lover of rabbit holes from everything. Sleep also was one of my rabbit holes once. So I'm really curious and really excited to talk about this. So Marc (01:36) Hehehehehe Paul (01:41) That's me and this is a super fun topic today, Great choice. Marc (01:45) Yeah, good, good. And so look, I think today we're both sponsored by the same thing, is that possible? Which is caffeine. Paul (01:52) By coffee, by coffee. mean, it is, I am amazed by the fact that it's, what is it now? 7.30 and you're up and on this podcast. So kudos to this level of commitment. Thank you. Marc (02:00) Yeah. Well, it helps that I've been jet-lagged because I just came from Europe after spending a little time with you. So he's up at 5, know, and 5.30 and then puts in the Colombian marching powder, at least the legal one, and gets going. Paul (02:09) ⁓ that helped. The legal one I was about to say. I was about to say. Oh, that's great. I also just raced back from the office to do this podcast. I'm really excited. Let's go. I mean, sponsored by coffee. guys. Not out of a French press, which I learned from Mark, actually. I always I know I bought this French press because I always liked the coffee in your house. And now this is I did. Marc (02:30) Cool. Cool. Let's go. You did? Really? Okay, so I never thought you liked the coffee when you stayed over at my place. I always thought, okay, like, really, you like it. Paul (02:46) No, no, I always like to and actually, I mean, I drink this is out of a beer later like of a mocha. I was never a big fan of the of the of the huge coffee machines at home because a they are expensive be they're very difficult to run and see I can walk outside of my door and get great coffee. So I might as well I can get a lot of coffees before I offset and amortize the coffee machine. Marc (02:53) Mmm. Yeah. Not to derail us, but I was making this observation. was really tired over the weekend with family and kids. There's something about Europe where I have a reaction of going into a cafe and then the coffee that you order is the machine where they hit the button. And then you get your espresso and espresso macchiato and they charge you three euros. I'm just saying. But it's everywhere, right? They're like, I know. Obviously not. It's not a proper coffee house, right? Paul (03:28) Mm hmm. No, but no, no, no, no. No, that's a joke. That's joke. Don't go there. No, no, no. Marc (03:39) But even the fucking shitty ones here in New York or elsewhere, the bodegas, at least they're running it through a filter. There's something about they're making it, you know? Versus they hit... Paul (03:47) Yeah, that is more than some fucking ⁓ WMF machine. Industrial. I fully agree with you. mean, that's basically that's that's a gas station coffee. That's what I call this, which sucks. Anyways. Marc (03:51) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Totally, It does, it does suck. anyway, let's bring us into this topic. first of all, first of all, let me leave it this way. How are you sleeping these days, Talk to us about your. Paul (04:15) I I already spoiled this. I've been not sleeping well lately. Yeah. And you know how that manifests? I will share. I don't know. I think I know why. But how it manifests usually is that I've troubles falling asleep. don't lately. I don't. But that's what I had the last few nights. And that I wake up quite early, earlier than I have to and more. Marc (04:20) Hmm. Hmm. Would you like to share more about why? Yeah. Hmm? Hmm. Paul (04:42) than that, it's actually, I just feel like I've been hit by a bus all day long. And I don't feel like I've actually gotten a proper rest. That's been my latest and greatest, yeah. Marc (04:47) Hmm. I'm sorry to hear. Jet lag helps because you push yourself to exhaustion, so minimum you're getting six. The grandparents took one of my kids, so it's only one to manage right now, so it's actually lot easier. They're not waking each other, and it helps. But in general, it's been interesting. Part of the reason why we chose this topic is because listeners who know us know us, so we're actually quite optimizers. Paul (04:56) How about yourself? Yeah, fair enough. ⁓ that is nice. Yeah. Marc (05:22) Like we optimize what we eat, we exercise quite often, consider ourselves fairly healthy. But sleep is the one thing that always bites us in the fucking ass, right? mean, also it's like the one thing we can't beat. ⁓ And in general, I want to get into what keeps me up in our routines, I think they're really interesting, but I think we should put a little sign to this. So the great book, Why We Sleep. Paul (05:35) Yeah. Marc (05:51) You've read it, right? Amazing, right? Just to like, are the key reasons why we do. Paul (05:52) Yes. Yes. I listened to a summary, to be honest. didn't, I didn't think the reading was that great, but it's a great book. I, and I listened to lots of his podcasts that in the end, he also has a podcast actually this Dr. Walker and I really liked it. Yeah. Marc (06:00) It wasn't that great. They're awesome. Yeah. I mean, I bought the book and I started to read it and it was one of those you're like, wait, okay, I just can just read the chapter headlines and a few paragraphs I'm into it. But nonetheless, why we sleep. Okay. First of all, brain maintenance and memory, right? We know that, right? Like it's about memory consolidation, neural waste clearance. You actually build up a lot of shit. So it's like a dishwasher for your brain in a way. And, ⁓ synaptic pruning, right? So it helps the brain trim unnecessary neural connections. You know, it makes you more efficient. Number two, which is super important for us, of course, is physical restoration and growth, tissue repair, immune function, ⁓ energy conservation. Especially when we work out, we know how well we need that to rebuild our fucking muscles, as old as we get. I noticed the difference, Huge, right? Emotional regulation, massive. We all know how we blow up on zero sleep. ⁓ Paul (07:00) Mmm, wow, crazy, yeah. Marc (07:04) And this is where also for the mental health thing, which is kind of interesting, like, it's strongly linked anxiety, depression, increased risk taking behavior, ⁓ which is probably why I quit my job, and I'm kidding, but like, I'm like, fuck it, I can't sleep, I have enough, I quit. And then metabolic health, which is massive, right? Like it's how your body processes fuel. If you notice like, ⁓ when you get a lot of sleep and I look in the mirror, I look trimmer. in the morning. Like if I have an eight hour day versus a five and a half hour sleep, like it's so interesting. You're more bloated to tremor. It's kind of crazy. Paul (07:38) Yeah. think the thing that stuck with me most is actually when you zoom out a little bit from all those hard facts, because what that actually means in your overall ⁓ well-being contributors, that sleep is actually the biggest contributor to your well-being, health, longevity and everything. And if you wanted to, I don't remember if you wanted to attribute it to, know, or divide it up between sleep and what you eat and exercise. Exercise is maybe 10, 20%. Then is about that a little bit more, maybe a third is what you actually eat and the rest 50, 60 % is sleeping. And we are, we are obsessing about which kind of supplements we put into our body, which is kind of optimizing the last 2%. Marc (08:23) Yeah. Paul (08:31) And we leave on the table all the potential that we have with sleep, which then actually when you sleep better, as you just said, your metabolism is better, you do eat better, you don't overeat because you're emotionally more stable and all these kinds of things. So sleep is a huge key to health, to fitness, to longevity and to, think overall, your overall state and state of happiness. Marc (08:45) Totally. And you know what's funny, I think we're gym rats, you're a bit more than I am, but nonetheless, we're trying to get our bodies into shape all the time, but how often, and it's funny, because I remember in Vienna, we had a big night, you kind of woke up hungover, you're at the gym, right? And how often are you at the gym thinking, God, if I just slept more, I didn't have to do Paul (09:18) Never. I always know, I'm always feeling, I'm always feeling if I had just gone to bed early and actually when I had a really long night like we have, I go to the gym and I punish myself. So. Marc (09:19) Really? I'm always doing that. Paul (09:32) I punish myself. I go and I go half an hour on the fucking stair master. Exactly. And then I do all these things that are not too hard, but where I need to sweat and I need to grind because then I get out of the gym and I feel like at least I have made up for the night before. Listen guys, I know this is psychologically not healthy. I am aware of the fact. I am also in therapy, but this is how I take. Marc (09:34) And that's the Sado masochist. Yeah, exactly. Okay, I mean, by the way, I also kind of do the same. I mean, I feel like if you have a big night, you'd want to burn it off the next day, which is kind of national. All right, so the thing like, just the other thing I should say is that we also instrument ourselves, right? In the sense of like, I have an aura ring, you have a whoop, right? And so we kind of know already intuitively how we feel when we wake up. And then at the same time, we have the data that... Paul (10:03) Yeah, yeah. Yes. Marc (10:22) should nudge us in terms of the right behavior change, right? So like, I get push notifications to say, Mark, go to fuck the bed. Yeah. Paul (10:30) I do the same, yeah. Yeah, I get the same. But how often, I wonder, how often ⁓ does your aura tell you one thing and you actually feel completely different one way or the other? Marc (10:42) It's not, it happens more often than not. I'll tell you what the aura ring does for me that I like is if I wake up feeling like shit and my aura ring says actually you had a lot of restorative sleep, you know, or like you're, it's a score better than I anticipate, then I'm like, I feel better. I'm like, I can enter the day okay. It's totally a placebo. Paul (10:57) Yeah, that's a great, ⁓ yeah, you feel better. It's like a placebo effect. But the unfortunate thing, it also works the other way, I find. I mean, there are nights when I get up in the morning, was like, man, that was a long, great sleep. And I would look at my whoop and it's like, my actually was pretty mediocre. And I get like, fuck you, you know, I tried everything last night. I went to bed early. I didn't eat a blah, blah. And it's still shit, but I actually feel good. So I think it goes both ways. Marc (11:18) Yes. It does, but it is very funny how dependent I am on how I enter the day is based on my Aura score. And funny, do you ever screenshot? It's stupid. No, no, no. This is also, the gamification of how we enter the day is... Yeah, yeah, I also think a lot about... Or let me admit this. I've screenshotted... Paul (11:35) Yeah, which is stupid, by the way. Yeah, yeah, But it's okay, I we are all guilty of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (11:54) my or ring scores like my best ones like one day I got 100 I'm just like motherfucker I just won you do yeah Paul (11:56) course. Man, man, also when I send it to a friend of mine, Kiko, know, know who I'm talking about and he sent me his sometimes it's like, we're like, fuck yeah. And it's like a fuck yeah day. And then if the sun is shining too and you have 97 % recovery score, I'm like, I'm like going to the gym and I'm ripping it. a lot is in my head. But yes, I'm looking at this a lot. Marc (12:17) There. Well, okay, so that's, okay, so that's what I wanted to talk about. So what are the things? So knowing that we are humans who, we have the information to sleep well. We want to sleep well. This is not new information for us, right? Like we have instrumented ourselves with the rules that we'll talk about later, but we're aware of them about, we should not drink too much. You should eat three hours before, you you should unwind, et cetera. And yet, In the middle of the night, sometimes you might toss and turn and wake up or you go to the bathroom. What are the things that disrupt you from sleeping? I just kind of want to talk about that for a bit. Paul (12:53) so we know we talked about rabbit holes in the beginning and I got into this rabbit hole at the beginning of this year where I had, I think over the course of two or three weeks, a very detailed conversation with my Gemini agent, ⁓ about, ⁓ when I go to sleep, when I ate last, what I ate the next day, what my HRV was. my heart rate variability, is, know, the one good indicator we have about how rested our central nervous system is, ⁓ how high or low my resting heart rate was, everything. I shared every Google notes really to a level of detail because I had noticed that, which is really interesting, my, especially my HRE in the last one and half years, funny enough, since I have not been working as a CEO anymore, has been lower than before. Marc (13:43) Hmm? Hmm. Paul (13:46) which is totally crazy and counterintuitive because it's actually a level of stress. And then I got into all different kinds of optimizations. As you just said, right? I mean, eat three hours before you go to sleep, even four actually put away your phone. Don't look at screens anymore. Turn on brown noise in your room. That's also what I've been doing ever since because it kind of drowns out all the noise that comes from the streets, et cetera, et cetera. Marc (13:59) Yeah. Paul (14:15) to a limited positive effect. The funny thing is that I still sleep much better when I'm not in my apartment in Vienna. I was just at my parents in Graz that live a little bit more outside obviously than I do here. And I had two glasses of wine and my sleep score and these two HRV and resting hydrate were better than they would be on the cleanest of nights in Vienna, which I can't explain to myself. I don't know if this Marc (14:43) Yeah. Paul (14:45) place has bad energy or if the place where you live always kind of exudes a certain level of stress because it's connected with work in your head, I have no idea. So that's kind of coming from what do I measure and what keeps me up? Maybe it's my place here in Vienna. Usually things don't get me up at night. The only things that really wake me up at night is if I ate too much or drank too much and my Marc (15:07) Hmm. Paul (15:12) My body is having troubles digesting and coping with all the stuff I put in. But I don't... When I sleep, I sleep. Yeah. Marc (15:22) Really? I'm so surprised. so, I mean, you lead a fair way. There loads of stress you put on your day to day, right? I mean, right now you were sharing about a lot of tough conversations you need to have at work. Obviously, you have three kids that you manage. You have relationships that yeah, yeah, exactly. No, no, totally, I was about to go there. Yeah, exactly. All the things of life, all the things of work. Paul (15:40) Co-manage, to be fair, yeah. Marc (15:51) You shoulder, I would say, a significant amount than many of the people that I know. And none of this shit wakes you up? Also, not to mention your own existential kind quandaries that you have from time to time? Nothing. Paul (16:04) No, they keep me from falling asleep. They really do keep me from falling asleep. And usually when I wake up early then, at five or so, maybe I can't fall asleep anymore because I have those things in my head and I'm on. But it's not like I wake up at two in the morning. I only wake up at two in the morning when I have to pee because I had too many beers. Otherwise I sleep. Marc (16:27) Wow, okay, so I wake up all the time at 2.30 in the morning and my God, I'm not an anxious person, either it's, if there's a big change, I'm waking up thinking about it. I'm like, my God, I'm gonna wake up thinking about this. I know it, and think about multiple responses to back in the day, how to handle something with my boss or with a client or things like that. When I was debating on Paul (16:32) Really? Yeah, yeah. Marc (16:56) quitting my job and starting something new. I think that was a month of just waking up at night, just thinking like, how do I best do this? How do I structure this? do I, like, will there be enough money? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Then like in the creative process, when I was writing, I would wake up all the time and thinking, okay, what's the best version of this story? Like, how do I best architect this? And part of the reason why is that I thought that my dreams and my thinking really thrived in the liminal space. between reality and dreams. Like there's something about that, you know, that I kind of started to embrace. And so I would be up thinking about that for a while. I'm never thinking about family or kids, you know, to be able to just, no, it's like, it's, no, it's just like, like, I worry about that during the day, you know, it's like, it's Mark existential quandary time. Paul (17:29) Mm. Fair enough, no need to Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. I mean, I do have restless nights. I mean, I've been also dreaming so vividly and wildly lately that I woke up and I'm always like, it really didn't feel like rest. It felt like I went through Alice in Wonderland on LSD, like a motherfucker for eight hours. Right. Really? Yeah. Fun. But also like a bit like Jesus Christ. Right. And now my actual day starts. Marc (18:06) Fun. All right. All right. Paul (18:12) But no, no, I really don't have that too much. do have it. I've always also as a kid had problems falling asleep because I have and I know what it is. I know Johannes, who we talked to in episode, I think 18, right? The the the stress buster and the nervous system. Connoisseur taught me this. And this is all what it is about. Right. When you also talk about no screens before, you know, before you go to bed is you need to give your nervous system a break and the chance to actually wind down. And apart from the no screens, can do box breathing, four in, four holding your breath, four out, four holding your breath, things like this, and other techniques to actually just calm your vagus nerves and all of this. And that actually helps. That was also part of my rabbit hole, by the way. And the funny thing is that I know, and what keeps me up at the moment is that I'm in front of my laptop. ⁓ mean, yesterday I really... Marc (18:43) Interesting. Hmm. Paul (19:11) I was still on Claude Cote when I was already in bed because I wanted to finish something, which I know is stupid and is a bit like an addiction to be fair. And we can talk about this in a separate podcast. And, and I'm just so wound up and then I'm also so tired that I sleep right away, but I just sleep like shit, but I'm wound up and my nervous system actually never gets the chance to, to calm down and your sleep starts. And that's always what I tell myself before you actually go to bed. You you put your phone away and, and, and I've, I've been really good at that actually, that I, I don't have my phone where I sleep. I mean, that's one of the hacks. I have it in a different room where I have also the charger and everything is always there and it never moves. And before I start like the shower and everything I do before I go to bed, I put my phone there. set the alarm and I don't look at this motherfucker at least for half an hour before I go to bed. So that's, that's. Marc (19:41) That's a really good tip. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Wow. Okay, so you're already far away from rituals. I want to talk about not just hacks, but things that... No, no, no. No, no, it was great. No, it was great. What also doesn't work as you start to optimize? And think in my experience, what does? So what doesn't? Any pills. So if you're taking an anti-haz, a melatonin... I never sleep... I can sleep six hours, I'm never sleeping eight. I'm talking about... Paul (20:11) Yeah. Sorry, I was jumping a bit. Yeah. Yes, interesting. I disagree. That's a different thing, right? the question? Yeah, okay. Marc (20:33) Well, Well, this is what I'm talking about. Like a high school, yes, I know how to knock my ass out. Like, I guarantee it's six for sure. Paul (20:38) No, I do take I mean, maybe we should be sponsored today by coffee and melatonin pills. have this great Sunday Natural, I'm going to, you know, maybe those fuckers sponsor us, Sleep Essentials, which is Ashwagandha and whatever the fuck, and also a little bit of melatonin, which is a fun fact, right? When you buy melatonin in the US, a ⁓ pill has 10 milligrams, right? And usually when you buy them in Europe, it has one or maybe two. So coming from Europe, Marc (20:58) Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Ha Paul (21:14) Once I remember when I cause when I used to work for whom I went to to Austin a lot and I had this week where I then Told my girlfriend this back then. It's like listen. I'm sleeping so great. I'm taking two three of these melatonin pills. She's like Look at the box how much melatonin is in there? So I basically was taking 20 to 30 milligrams of melatonin each night and obviously slept like a fucking baby But that's also about 10 to 15 times the the the recommended dosage. So yeah Marc (21:36) Yeah, of course. Paul (21:43) That's a... Exactly. Marc (21:43) Perfect annihilation. Yeah, exactly. If they guide you, you're mixing that with vodka. You'd be the first one to die of melatonin. Paul (21:48) No, actually that was a week where I didn't drink any alcohol and slept well. Anyway, so melatonin and these sleep complexes helped me and I also take a special form of magnesium before I go to bed, ⁓ the L-3-onate, because it's the only type that actually crosses your blood-brain barrier and actually helps your brain to relax. I'm not sure whether it helps or not, but I like to think it does. Marc (22:08) No, okay, that's interesting. All right, well, okay, we have some disagreement on that. So the other thing is, ⁓ so at least in the US, because it's legal here, edibles, right? Like, that's all the rage, like, here's a sleep edible, et cetera, right? I mean, well, I mean, I'll say, fuck, dude, that's the thing. So if the data to show is like, yeah, it knocks me out, right? But then around six hours or something, then I'm waking up, right? And I'm baked. And then, Paul (22:21) And how are they? I would have even crazier dreams, and be so fucked up. Marc (22:38) It's like, can I go back to sleep? And lots of times I just sit in bed with high dreams until I might drift off again in a little bit and then I'm supposed to get up to work. feel slow, lethargic. Paul (22:50) Maybe you should try those sleep complexes again for the sleeping through. think to sleep long, especially long at rest, full sleep in the end is something you can only do with yourself and being relaxed and so on. But at least to have six hours without a break, maybe you try them. How about coffee? What's the last coffee you take? Marc (23:04) Yeah, duh. Mr. Trial Well, it's gonna get to that. So the last coffee I take, I feel like I'm immune to caffeine. You know, usually around 5 p.m. will be the last. I know it's bullshit, but I'm just telling you that I don't have a problem falling asleep. So 5 p.m. might be the last coffee I'll take. I'm not stupid to take an espresso, like after, I mean, maybe after a super fancy meal and I'm like, okay, we're gonna be out for a little, yeah, sorry. But. Paul (23:20) That's bullshit. That's the big one. Yeah, yeah, but... Like I did the other day when we were here. Yeah, but you know, the thing is, and I remember that was in the book, right? Coffee has a half life of about six hours and a quarter life of about 12 hours. So that means you still have coffee and then especially when you are over your first tiredness, right? And then you get in a bit of a light sleep and you still have some coffee in your system that can also, maybe you try having your last coffee at lunch for the next couple of weeks. Marc (23:49) Yeah. No, maybe. Well, I'll tell you what, like, the coffee here is also really strong. Like, what we have here is cold brew, you know, and you guys don't really have cold brew in Europe. Oh, no, no, it's come back, right? You do have it in Austria. It's just not a standard thing. No, it's not. No. So when Vera and I on Monday, slight aside, but funny, we got off the plane and, you know, came to New York. Paul (24:10) and not at five. We have it at... Yeah, but it's not a big thing. It's in the specialty, Bobo, hipster shops. Marc (24:38) We were so exhausted because I was like basically my little one Valentin would not go to sleep. So eight and a half hours of this little toddler on the coach seat and we were like done. I was like, there's only one thing that's going to help us is cold brew. So I go to our local place and they give us the cold brew and it's so fucking strong. I was like, feel like, I was like, it's like if you, you we were like, know, Pablo Escobar's place, just like wild, like crazy after. Paul (24:55) Yeah. Marc (25:08) It was at 4 p.m. We were awake till almost 11, you know, on this stuff. It's crazy. I'm just, you know, that's my version of your 30 milligrams of... Paul (25:14) Yeah, what other sleep myth or sleep, fair enough, what other sleep myths are there to uncover? Marc (25:23) Well, I think, okay, so for sure, edibles are terrible for you. Obviously not having coffee is great. Like before is important. What about the heavy blanket? Have you ever done that? Paul (25:36) No, have you? Marc (25:37) That to me has worked, yeah. You know what it's great for? It's awesome for naps, which I've decided are important now. If I'm like, oh, I should nap, this woven heavy thing, it's stupid expensive for some reason. I don't know why it's 300 bucks, but it's actually worth it, because the naps are so good. I'm like, hey, you know what, I pay 300 bucks for that. Paul (25:40) I bet it does, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, ⁓ so this is a bit of a section of dos and don'ts, right? What works, myths and yeah, I like that. What else works or doesn't work for you? Marc (26:05) Yeah, yeah, it's really good. think, ⁓ I guess the other thing I would say is, and we should talk about this, is like, you, well, I think I know your answer. You don't listen to anything to go to sleep, right? So I love falling asleep. It's like I'm a little kid. I want to be told a story before I to bed. And so I purposely pick either audio books, usually it's about world history or like a song. or science, it's usually those two. It's never politics or talks like that. And I just listen to those, as soon as those voices come on, it's like 10 minutes amount, max. Paul (26:47) I have a friend ⁓ who is exactly the same, he always wakes up because his wife moves too much or snores too loudly, I don't know what the reason is, but then he always tells me he puts in some German science YouTube shit and he sleeps right away. I, for myself, I can tell you that I was always envious of people who were able to fall asleep during TV. I think I can tell you the three or four times in my life. that I fell asleep while watching or listening to something because my brain is so switched on to the shit that I'm listening or watching. It could even be the most boring home shopping series. I would watch it to absolute exhaustion. There is no way. So for me, that's not an option. Marc (27:35) funny. Well, I think like, so I'd have strong recommendations on this. ⁓ So there for those, there are people that love it. And by the way, you might want to try it. There's a good ⁓ headphone company that does this that will turn on a, I'll put it in our chat. It'll turn on a podcast for a while, like a, you something that helps you sleep. And then when you fall asleep, puts on brown noise and just, so it's just, so it doesn't have it going on. mean, Paul (28:01) That's great. Marc (28:05) For me sometimes, I will listen to a fall of civilizations podcast, which is an excellent one. It's like the fall of the Romans, or the fall of Vikings, what they did. And sometimes I'm waking up and it's horrible shit. Yeah, and then there were decapitations and bowel. What am I listening to? Yeah, yeah. Paul (28:21) So you would have rather had brown noise in that case. No, but in a similar sense, do like sleep meditations and I do like all the things that actually work to calm you down. So I like those sleep meditations. I like those breathing exercises. Sometimes I'm a bit too wound up to actually do them, which is crazy, but you know yourself, I'm so restless. then actually reading works. Marc (28:32) Yes. That's right. Hmm. Paul (28:50) ⁓ you know, just read five to 10 pages. And even if it's the economists, to be honest, that can also, it just is all about winding you down. So this kind of works for me. Yeah. Marc (28:53) Hmm. It's awesome. I believe in that. That's my new ritual, the way. Reading. Yeah, exactly. It's working. It works so well. Paul (29:04) Yeah, I would wish I would be more. Do you know what the biggest, what's the, how do you say, the single biggest, contributed to good sleep. in terms of behaviors. That's a good one. That's a very good one. Apart from that. Marc (29:17) No kids. ⁓ no, tell me. Paul (29:25) It is bad time consistency. When you go to bed, the time you go to bed better. So I listened once and guess there's a great, great diary of a CEO podcast with, ⁓ and I don't know, I think her name is homes. She is the kind of chief scientist of whoop. And, and it was super interesting. And she says, and they have all the data, right? They have all the behavioral data as well. And it is like, when you go to bed and when you wake up to keep that consistent. Marc (29:30) What's that? bedtime consistency. I thought bad time. ⁓ yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Paul (29:53) That is the most important is more important than anything else in there than the amount of sleep and because that actually drives everything. And to the point that, you know, she says, there is no such thing as, you know, sleeping a little bit, but catching up over the weekend. doesn't work, right? Sleep sleep is doesn't work like your bank account. And she calls that social hangover, right? If you sleep longer on the weekend, because you go to bed longer, you know, obviously traveling is tough. ⁓ Marc (30:09) Yeah, totally. Paul (30:23) And she talks about naps to actually catch up on sleep, very short naps, but to have them before 1pm, because if you have them afterwards, they actually negatively impact your sleep in the following night. So I find that super interesting. And I find that also super hard because if you really follow that with all the other things, your life becomes really boring because you basically eat it. You eat your meal is like you feel like you're in a retirement home. Marc (30:45) Yeah. Paul (30:50) or in the hospital, you eat your meal at 6 PM, you go to bed at 10 PM, you don't drink, you put your phone away at 10, you read something, bless you. So it's just fucking boring if you have to do it like this. So that's the biggest contributor though. Marc (31:02) Yeah. It's true. It's one of those inconvenient truths, but I know I agree. And actually, I mean, for the most part as a parent of young kids, going, I find that to be true. It's like around that 10, 30, 11 amount. Hey, one last thing before we wrap up. And I always thought about this, especially in Europe, is temperature control. So like, you got to keep that motherfucking cold, you know? Paul (31:20) Yeah, anyways, yeah. ⁓ 100%. Marc (31:33) and cool so that your body just like gets in there and I hate air conditioning, I do, but at the same time I think about Europe in summer, no one's sleeping well, it's awful. Paul (31:46) I hate nothing more than a warm bed. Unless it's cold outside and you cuddle in, right? But if you wake up at night and everything is so warm, sometimes I go and turn over my blanket or rip open the windows or something because I like, no, I fully agree. It sucks. Absolutely sucks. So Mark, what's your takeaway from our conversation? Marc (31:49) Ugh. Yeah. I can't do it. Oh no, it's the biggest fight I have with my wife, it's horrible. So listen, I think both is that we are actively trying to find great sleep, that's for sure, right? That we already know. But I think, first of all, it's just healthy to talk with you about what you are doing differently. And I think if there's one thing I would say that I want to try. Paul (32:14) and actively ignoring the things we already know. Marc (32:29) a little bit of what you're doing is a little bit of the sleep meditation to be honest with you. ⁓ I think there's something interesting about how we can clean our brains up. And actually maybe the takeaway of just talking about this is I'm realizing we're also put even with listening to podcasts and stuff like I'm doing at night or others are still like shit in my brain, you know, or more shit on top of my brain to knock it out versus like how do I take things away? Paul (32:40) Yes. Marc (32:58) And that's the provocation. Paul (32:58) Yeah, it's more, and what I learned is that all the things that I know that actually work for me to actually do them, which is kind of a recurring pattern in my life at the moment on many fronts, to stop working at latest 9 p.m. to put my phone away, to read at least two to three pages, to go to bed before 11. And that's about it, Marc (33:10) Mm. Mm. Yeah. I think the everything else we've just been outlined, ways to just cleanse your brain and enter the evening with the regularity and the timing and hold yourself to it as a good way. That was fun, man. Paul (33:35) I agree. Very fun. Very fun. So... Marc (33:37) Yeah, we should do more podcasts early in the morning when at nursing a coffee. Paul (33:44) I actually agree with you because yesterday night I couldn't have done it. was too tired talking about today's topic. Listen, the most idiotic thing of the week and the Terminator. I mean, you know my most idiotic thing of the week already and it deserves a spot. Mark was visiting me together with his beautiful and fun and nice and intelligent wife Vera last week and we went out to Wachau to do a very special episode that is going to come soon. Marc (33:49) Hahaha. Paul (34:12) And on our way out, I get a phone call from a restaurant in Vienna called Mraz, which is really fun. It wouldn't have been cheap, but I think we would have done it. And they called me, Hey, Paul, we have a space, you from you are on our wait list. Would you like to come tomorrow? And I got so excited. was like, fuck yeah, we're going to come. Right. And then he also tells me, I was telling everybody and I was then he, then Marc (34:31) He was telling everybody, he'd be like, Hi, hey, I would like a coffee. By the way, I have a reservation for this. Paul (34:37) Exactly. I told everybody I saw that we have a reservation there because it's very hard to get one. He also told me that I have to... It's very important that I reconfirm to an email. Obviously, I hang up and I get so excited that I forget. Up until the next day, when I realized I should have reconfirmed something, ⁓ I called them and obviously I had lost the table. I had to call Mark, who was already on his way to the restaurant, to say, hey buddy, you better divert because... we don't actually have a table. So I completely let that experience slip through our hands. I'd like to think that the universe was telling us something and instead we went to a beautiful place which is amazing, Cucina Itamisi, we posted it on Instagram as well and that was awesome. Almost my terminated of the week right away because that's Scott of Etobie actually, one of the founders and owners because I then called him, he saved the night. Marc (35:19) So good, so good. Save the night. Paul (35:33) And I called him, like, buddy, we have a real problem. Can you fit us in somewhere? And he did. And that was awesome. So thank you. Thank you so much. Over and out. Marc (35:41) Awesome. So My idiot or stupid thing I've done is, know, I, for whatever reason, maybe because I was spending time in Germany, like misspelled and kept misspelling a high value client of mine's name, you know, in emails, right? was Neil, N-E-I-L, and I kept spelling it N-I-E-L, I guess because I was in Germany. Paul (36:08) Jesus Christ! Okay, you can say, is my German auto-correct? Even that wouldn't work. Marc (36:13) I did. It was such bullshit. was like, I'm spelling like a local. I'm so super sorry. All right. And then my Terminator of the Week. So this is a really fun story I'm going to tell you. It's going to take a minute, by the way, just to prep this, but it's worth it. So about 10 years ago, a friend of ours, co-friend of ours, Gregorio, based in Guatemala, called me and said, hey, I want to start a clothing line. And together, I brought in a designer, Ali, into it and we started to envision what this clothing line could be for the Latin American market and we kept talking about it. was one of the great projects that never happened. And then Ali called me about a month ago and he said, Mark, I'm with a friend and he's talking about underwear. He wants to launch his new underwear brand. So I talked with him and said, And sure enough, he sent me a sample and the... the theory or the value proposition is called King. It's a male underwear company. I will say, I think it's ⁓ mainly for the gay target group, but why not, it's for everyone. ⁓ I asked them what makes this underwear different, and it's... has a powerful innovation, called the King Sling, which is an anatomical sling, keeping your balls secure while your body's in motion. And I gotta say, it's like a bit like a jockstrap, and I gotta say, I'm wearing it now, and it's pretty cool. So congrats, that's my Terminator of the Week. Paul (37:52) Mean I am not sure if this is in the Terminator category category or in the I don't know if you should be sharing this category, but okay great Marc (38:02) Well, you know, I have so many samples now, I'm just gonna hand them out. You know, but it's, I will. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can't wait to send you the website. Something different, you know? Paul (38:07) Send me one, send me one and now I'm curious. Here we go. What a Terminator, what a Terminator. This was fun. Have a great day. Ciao. Marc (38:16) It was a lot of fun. You too. Bye.