Don't Do It for the Money | Ep 51

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about navigating all the things when you're in the prime of your life, which is of course middle age, as much as we loath to admit it. whether you're new to this podcast or no doubt you're a regular listener, this is a place where you come to to hear what's top of mind from people like us, to hear great stories about friendship, about love, about career, about all the things that move us and shape us. And no doubt you'll find a lot to laugh about too. I'm here in New York City. my name is Mark Winter. I am entrepreneur, part-time artist, father of two. a lover of existential questions, I think at this moment in time. And I'm joined here by my dear friend Paul. Hey Paul. Paul (00:48) Hey, how's it going, my friend? I am calling in from beautiful and tranquil Austria today, really, because I'm out in the countryside. I am a father of three, an entrepreneur, a former executive, a lover of rabbit holes, I guess also at times a lover of existential questions, but usually a pragmatist. And and I have always been this. Marc (01:11) Yes, you are. Paul (01:13) when people ask me for career advice, which funny enough they they have and you too. And that's why we chose this topic for today, which is about career changes and about everything that influences those choices and and and the experiences we have made in the past twenty and some odd years in our careers. So it's gonna be a good one. Marc (01:21) It's gonna be a great show. That's right. I'm excited. Let's dive in. Paul (01:37) So Mark, before we get into your week, what who are you sponsored by today? Marc (01:42) Well, you know what? I was sponsored by by Guinness three times actually over lunch, so I'm feeling really good. Paul (01:48) That's a casual Thursday. Marc (01:50) It was a casual Thursday and now now I'm being sponsored by N espresso, double espresso to stay up for this. Paul (01:57) I I am sponsored. We're back to episode one, which I think must have been really almost a year ago, a bit longer. you know, when we talked about the wines of our of our fathers. And so I'm in my parents' house and it is the ugliest label ever, is some rose from Burgenland. No, it is from it's actually straight from the winery. It's a rose from Johann Zechmeister in Burgenland. they've been doing wine since sixteen hundred, yeah. Marc (02:06) Yes. that is is that from Spa or something? Okay, nice. Paul (02:23) And I gotta say though, in all honesty, it's very good. It's very French in fact. And it's you know one of these wines my dad has praised for value and I was like, my god, really in my snobbiism. Marc (02:29) Okay. Let me let me see the bottle. Look The color looks the color looks not bad actually. A little darker than a classic French, but no. Paul (02:39) It is actually it is a tad darker than a classic French, but it's very nice. Too nice for for me not wanting to drink today. But I had one hell of a day, which which brings us straight into how has your week been? I mean, can you describe it with a terminator and an idiotic thing for our audience? you know what? I'm gonna start with the terminator because I just came from Marc (02:46) Good. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Go for it. Paul (03:07) I'm an under NDA, but from a company somewhere in the Dach region, as an outdoor sportswear company, small brand, but they've been around for twenty years. and I visited their offices, which are in the middle of nowhere. Beautiful. And it was so amazing to see what these guys have built and The energy in that place, the love and the passion, the care that goes into this product, super sustainable, really cool. But it goes in the line of I said it the other day, these amazing companies and founders I can meet. And this morning when I drove there, I I was a bit like, why am I going there? I'm not sure that's gonna work anyways. And then four hours later. Marc (03:34) Mm-hmm. Paul (03:48) I was like, Wow. Marc (03:50) Awesome. Awesome. well I spent the morning at Anthropic, funny enough. I guess the insight I can I can provide that that felt like Terminator esque is like, you know, th this person who who I was speaking with, she you know, she came from another tech firm and she's only been there about two months and she's like You know what's crazy, Mark? She's like, I don't think I could ever work at another company. I was like, Why? She said, Because everything is so connected here. Like there's no debate. Like all the like classic tensions that you have are like, you know, what do we automate? Why don't we automate? What do we keep you? She's like, No, no, no. We're already in a like AI native kind of way. She's like, All my tools, everything comes through and it's just continuously learning and thinking for me. She's like, Why why would I work anywhere else? This it's just Paul (04:13) Why? Marc (04:36) Wild. So super cool and enlightening conversation. Yeah, I know. I know. You you're we're gonna call you Mr. Claude of of all Herr Claude from from from from Ustaich. Paul (04:38) What I'm building for myself, brother. I'm telling ya. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Herr Cloud, Herr Klaus. Herr Klaus, I'm thinking of an idiotic thing past week. Yeah, please. Marc (04:54) while you think about that, I'll sh I'll share mine. I went out to support the US team on Monday, which was as idiotic as I possibly could. Not to do a World Cup version of that, but but I should have known that, you know, in the US we have this saying, you know, everything Trump touches sports wise turns to shit. You can apply that probably to a lot of things, but in particular sports wise. So he went to the New York Knicks game three, you know. Paul (05:21) They lost. Marc (05:22) in Madison Square. yeah. It's the only game they lost. He went to, right. And he fell asleep during the game. And of course, you know, he inter he f now famously exposed FIFA as the mafia organization it is. And and, you know, everyone knows Trump's a mafia bell's boss, but of course he puts his fingers in there and and the US never looked worse. So, I can't believe I was supported. I knew it. Paul (05:45) reminded me though of my idiot of the week, which is also World Cup related. And I'm as I am struggling through a very weird version of a jet lag because I'm getting up at one o' a.m. in the morning and unluckily now every time I get up there's a game on. And even more stupidly, and here we go, I watch it. And I wonder why my sleep scores are in the gutter. But here we go. Hey, nice doll. Nice to talk to you and Marc (06:03) Yeah, there you go. Paul (06:12) Nice to dive into today's topic, which is let's define it broadly for now. about career changes. Marc (06:18) Okay, nice. Paul (06:21) And we did think about this Marc (06:21) I I think we've got something to say about that. It should be a great show. Paul (06:25) It should be. It should be. How did we get there? Because I I had another conversation just this week with a colleague who's about to change career and it reminded me of many conversations I've had in my career with people that worked with me or friends that I'm sure you've had too. And then I also thought about my own choices and I thought it'd be fun to reflect a little bit about how how we made career choices and what drove them and whether we think in hindsight there were good ones or bad ones. and see if we can distill something insightful out of this. Marc (06:53) Yeah. I love that. Okay. I'm down. I'm down. Paul (07:00) So let's start with you, who's basically only had one change in the last thirteen years. Marc (07:08) I was waiting for that. Paul (07:08) No, but for no but for context, when we left the NBA, we graduated in twenty eleven, you joined SYP and you were with them, you know, until the beginning of this year basically. Correct? And and you had two jobs before that, right? For before the NBA. Marc (07:19) Bananas. Yeah. Basically basically Three or four, something like that. I can't remember. Yeah, yeah. Paul (07:26) Yeah. But but but I mean correct me if I'm wrong. I I think the interesting thing is why you didn't change jobs in the last twelve years. Before you did, which we actually recorded I think around episode thirty if anyone's interested. It was me in the car. It was me in the car in the ski resort, I remember very vividly. Yeah. Marc (07:37) Yeah. So Yeah, yeah, something like that. Okay, good encyclop encyclopedic memory. Yeah. Good. you know, look, I think that's a question I ask myself a lot. You know, I think when especially in the States and among high performers, you know, what you experience a lot is constant cur career change. You know, people stay two, three years in a job and they move on to the next thing and the next thing they try to build their portfolio of experience, you know, through across a lot of different industries, etc. But you know, I felt like I had a Paul (08:18) In fact, Mark, sorry to interrupt you. I think the average is three point seven years in a job in the US, just for reference. Marc (08:24) Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. You're like you are you are Her Claude. You know, it's perfect. Yeah, good. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, like, you know, I think like but beforehand, you know, I I I'd done roughly that. You know, I was at Random House and I was in the film business for a while and then other stuff. But you know, when I found a firm that that kind of challenged you, I think that that's always interesting about consulting, especially of really great clients and early problems, you know, if you're you get problem addicted. Paul (08:31) I got also Neuralink in there, I wish. Yeah. Anyways. Sorry. Marc (08:55) but I also think like you get to reinvent your your job as long as you get to do that. You could be at the same company, but you're playing different things and doing different stuff. People feel like you have a bit of a you know, very candidly, you're having fun and you have the security blanket of of a place that you know to have fun. So it's like a house party, you know, if you will, where like the ground floor is playing one beat, you can go upstairs is another thing, you can go up a good you know, go up to the attic. Paul (09:17) Mm. Marc (09:23) I and you have the security that's all the same house, you know? Paul (09:27) I I love that that's a beautiful picture and and that's also an amazing place where you can, you know, change the floors like this. I I wonder though, I'm sure you were tempted at times. And and can you recall a time where you were especially tempted? And and and I mean now in hindsight, I mean you're also not there anymore. Describe a little bit what it was and why you you know, in that very concrete example decided to stay. Marc (09:35) Yeah. All the time. So I think it's good hygiene in practice for every person to be interviewing at least every few years. The reason why I believe that is that you should know what your net worth is, right? is is the thing that I've been doing valuable in the market? Have I like will it attract attention and respect and that kind of stuff? And you know, I'll be very direct. Like the come down between the place I was operating, which is like advising CEOs and their leadership teams, and then the roles inside those organizations, which were several levels down, right? Given who I was, was just too much of a gap for probably my ego to take a bit. And for what my career like, I was like, I advise these guys. I can be them, right? Which is always also ludicrous, right? but it was a So so first of all, look th that was a a little bit of a hard thing to wrestle with, which is by the way, very common, I think, a lot of the the the businesses. Consulting businesses. And then Paul (11:03) I think that's just to r to to reflect on that, I think in consulting that's a very real thing, right? Because I mean, very soon in consulting and that which is great about this job, you're the people opposite the table on the client side are several levels above you. And as you just said, right? I mean, you are in your mid thirties, you're talking to the CEO or you're talking to the C something or or one level down in a huge company, and then you you get leveled in, you know, I don't know, C minus three. Marc (11:24) Yeah. Right. Paul (11:32) in that same company and you like are you know you never get to see the CEO basically, you know, I never get to have those conversations. Marc (11:33) Yeah. Totally. Yeah, suddenly we're in the room together making big company decisions and you wanna you wanna come in here? Great. Let me put you all the way downst d take the elevator down a few force. Exactly. And they you know, you're like, What the fuck? Like and so, you know, and there's it is. I think I think if you you know, if you if y you know, at some point, you know, I remember when I was I imagine you too, you know, when you're young and you're you're in big rooms and big boardrooms and you're like, Wow, I'm really doing this and facilitate you know, you get this big ego going. Paul (11:47) Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That's hard to take. I can see that. Marc (12:08) And then the the reality check of like, wait, going inside means playing a different role, you've got a different suit. And that's really hard. So you can imagine I flirted with a lot of different opportunities, you know, around that. Where I gotten most close was to come on like a a chief, like a reporting to a chief revenue officer of of a large software company. And and you know, I was really kind of entertaining that and you know, the reality was is that I wasn't very passionate about the product. Paul (12:22) Yeah. I remember. Marc (12:38) You know? And I was like, God, I think I'm good at selling like whatever w what I was doing before because like I really cared about it, I believed in it. And I was like, I don't even know if I give a shit about this kind of product. So I know I'm a good salesperson, but it would feel very inauthentic for me to take that. I'm not even sure I can be successful. So yeah, that was Paul (12:57) Hmm. And I mean, why did you even entertain those? Were they better paid in general? Huh. Marc (13:02) Much. And I think that's the that's the cra you know, that's the crazy thing. Like I ha I had a debate, you know. And it's very weird, like and it's also byproduct of American. You know, if you if you go deep into I would be in in one role making a good double, if not more, right, of what I was taking in. And then I thought that's not gonna make I mean it could make me happy, maybe not gonna make me happy, but it feels like When you're making choices explicitly for the money and you know there's not a lot of passion for it, it's not a good recipe. So though, you know, and and and I did the math, I said, okay, my family will still be okay. You know Paul (13:37) Yes. And and I I mean, yeah. You know, just to just to just to rhyme on that, I think my the my very first vivid memory of making a career choice or actually not making it like you, was one of my first jobs in consulting or the first. And after a few months I started comparing myself to my peers at a university. Some of them and I worked at KPMG back then, I didn't make any money basically. Marc (14:09) Yeah. Paul (14:09) And then some others worked at Roland Berger or BCG and made much more. And I was what the fuck is this? Or investment banking. So obviously I went out. And that was the first time I ever, and it's the last time I ever did this and actually interviewed with an investment bank. They made me an offer. They would have paid me double, which, you know, wh which was a lot. And it was double. Big deal. And it was three months into my job also. You know, so I went to the partner. It was like the senior partner of the thing. And he he took me in and he was like basically telling me. Marc (14:25) W big deal, big deal. Paul (14:36) To fuck off. You know, that's a stupid idea because I was some shitty investment bank. And if I ever wanted to do like an MBA, it's better to have a big brand and it's about learning and so on. And I gotta say, my dad back then, I mean, he really backed me up and he was like, Listen, I mean, you know, luckily he he had the means and he was also saying, if you need something, let me know. Just don't do this for the money. You know, it's too early. And in hindsight, it's not gonna matter. What matters now is that you learn and you have to stay at the place where you feel you learn the most. Marc (15:03) By the way, so that is so interesting that your father came in came in and and gave you that bit of advice. You know what my dad told me every time I would try to switch? Paul (15:09) The only the w the only advice from him I ever took, I think. that was a good one. I should have done it more often, by the way, but yeah, yeah. Marc (15:12) That was a good one. Nice. Well, you know, my what my dad would always say every time I was looking, he's like, Are you sure you want to weave? I was like, What are you kidding me? I've been here forever. Paul (15:25) But your dad was at Deutsche Bank for fucking fifty years or something, no? Marc (15:28) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He's well he's like, you know, the thank you. They're like, he's like, you know, like you've got a lot of flexibility, you're in a creative plus space. Like, sounds like paradise to me. Why would you want to leave? You know? And I was like, Okay, I got it. Like what you want the story you want to tell yourself is that your son is okay. He's in a cool job. Like, I don't have to worry about him, you know? And you know, y there there was there was some logic, I think, to what he was saying. And at the same time, I felt like I was like, man, dude, you're really conservative. Like like if if I were if I were, you know, in your roles I'd be like, Yo man, you gotta reinvent yourself, push, life is short, go, go, go. Paul (16:06) Hey, but let's face it, I mean his 40 years at once are basically the 12 of your generation. So I think you're you're pretty much following in his conservativeness, you know? Hey. No, you know, and there is I think there is something in that. And and now I'm jumping a little bit, but is patience. And I think my my my first looking around was clearly impatience. And Marc (16:12) Yeah. thank you. Exactly. And you know, he did pretty well for himself. So, you know, he was like, you know, he was trying to Yeah. Paul (16:36) And I w I and the the and I crazy, no? And and it is it is actually a joke because every time I had a younger, you know, an employee in their end twenties, early thirties coming to me, you know, employees or fr you know friends of friends or whatever, and they were also clearly impatient. Say, I need to move up and it's like I said, I know I'm the wrong person to tell you this, but there is a value in Marc (16:38) You impatient, impossible. Yeah, just what a wild idea. Paul (17:03) in sometimes sitting things out as well and seeing how they develop if if you see that some of the factors actually align. Marc (17:06) Mm. Paul (17:16) You like what you're doing, you like your colleagues, you can learn from your boss, you you can see that there is not a lot of politics, that what you do is actually valued, that there is no elbows, you know. If you have these that the company is moving forward or generating in a good direction, these are all the makings of hey, something can develop out of this. And if you have a surrounding like this, I I do feel stay because especially when you are a good talent and I've had this Marc (17:38) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (17:45) I was very lucky, especially in my last job, to work with very talented young individuals and I always told them, Listen, I don't know what I have in store for you, but I know there will be something. And in fact, those were my jokers. Whenever we did a restructuring and wherever I had to take someone out or restructure something and I needed someone there, these were the people I would go to and they would always make career moves, big career moves, th which I couldn't have anticipated, let let alone Marc (17:56) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (18:14) They could have. But if you are that kind of resource in the company and you need to understand whether you are or not, you know, and this company is on a great trajectory, stay because that's awesome. If all the other things that you said are not there, right, and there's a is a shitty boss, shitty colleagues, you know. I mean, fuck it. No patience needed, you know. So that so that's but Haiti, yeah, d Marc (18:33) Right, right, right, right. Totally. Totally. Fascinating. Paul (18:41) The other thing though I was just thinking about when you said, you know, you you didn't leave for the money, right? But you kind of left also for less money. And I think I I feel more and more that this is also a career choice that there many people and I myself did that twice in my career. And I and I feel a lot of people that are changing, especially later on, especially when they had, for example, a consulting or a banking career or a career in finance in general. They they are confronted with decisions where they go into industry and all of a sudden make less, or like you become an entrepreneur, which I think is less first with the you know, with the outlook of more. But but some of these roles are really less with no outlook of more in the next ten years, you know, like or you know. So so what's your take on that? Marc (19:15) Mm-hmm. Todo lo. You know, I think people are redefining what their dream job is, you know, or wondering if it's even possible, you know. And like like I think people have taken a bit more of a cohesive point of view about what work is and isn't. And you know, when they take a job that pays less but gives them more time, I assume that's the trade-off, right? Or more joy. I don't think anyone's taking jobs that are Paul (20:01) I di I thought of something else. Marc (20:03) Really? Okay, tell me. Well well I'll give my assumption, then you tell yours. Like my assumption Paul (20:04) I think there's another angle to that. I I think that's an interesting one. Yeah. Marc (20:09) is that like if you're taking a job for less, it's because that job is offering you more time more more time, more joy, more flexibility. Like it's more of either a lifestyle or more purpose. Paul (20:24) Yes, and I think it is also something when you want to change your career or the tr trajectory of your career and you want to change something. And I remember I don't remember I don't remember many things of the MBA, to be honest. Only two. Actually, one was that you're not motivated by more money, which I never really believed in. And number two is that if you want to change your career, only change one of three variables, right? Marc (20:36) That's true. Agreed. I agree with that. Paul (20:54) your role, that's the type of job you do, your your industry or your geography. And I thought that was and actually came for career services. And I thought that was actually very smart. But if you want to change any one of these, or maybe two, because that can happen, you will get paid less. And now take the example of, for example, a finance guy that wants to become a CFO. And let's assume he has worked for an investment bank. Right? I mean, of course he's gonna make less in the industry as a as a young CFO. But he will then have been C CFO. This was my choice when I when I changed from consulting into industry. I made half. Fifty percent. But I knew I'm in a C level job and it will put me on a different trajectory in my career. And it did, in fact. so and I did other choices when I left BCG, which were which I also went twenty five percent down. Actually. I'm on a downward trajectory. This is sucks. And what the fuck is this? no, but it was also partly, you know, there were different parts. Like one part is what you said, like I wanted something more entrepreneurial. I got this. but I also wanted less time abroad, and because it was the the the time that my first our first kid arrived, and I wanted to be not gone all the fucking time. Yeah. So it was a mixture of that. Marc (21:55) Yeah, I was about to say, what do you Okay. I buy all that. And I I also this like a part of the themes are sometimes you need to step back before you step forward, you know, and I and it does that resonates. Did ever tell you when I started my job in the film business, you know, I went from like being, you know, a a pretty decent publicist for pretty f like kind of famous writers and and and random house to like taking phone calls. Like making reservations at hotels, installing air conditioners for my producer. Like it was like I was just like, What the fuck is this? And I pulled her aside. I remember I'll never forget it. I pulled my producer about aside and I was like, What? What are you having me do? It's a story editor here, right? And she looked at me directly in the eyes. She's like, Don't you know what this is? Let me know if you change your mind. And I was like, I guess I'm sticking with it. It was crazy. Paul (23:13) Wow, that was a that's a pretty direct chic ding. Yeah. Marc (23:17) Yeah, she she had that quality. Yeah. Paul (23:21) Y you know though in in in that context, what I've always said and and and thought to myself, I never and I think that's a quality, no, I'm praising myself, but I I never looked at my next job as my next job only, but I always looked at it as a stepping stone. And that was also always my my kind of career advice. It's like I I asked what do you actually want to do in five to ten years? And is that bringing you closer to this or not? Marc (23:40) Mm. Paul (23:51) And so I always thought and then as I grew older though, I thought, isn't the point coming soon that the next one should actually be the one? You know what I mean? Because I I took many of my career decisions and I changed, I mean, for context, between the MBA, I changed job you know, MBA and now I changed job three times. The last one was not voluntary, but still which actually was the best change. I mean I said so much for that. But but I always saw it as a stepping stone. I have so much more fun. Marc (24:00) Mm. Y you're so much more fun now. Jeez. Paul (24:20) No, no, but I always thought, okay, this is not gonna probably not gonna bring me where I wanna be, but it's gonna bring me closer and it it's opening more doors or it's opening more optionality and it's giving me that. And I I always had this. And I I thought that's a that was always kinda cool. But then came the point, I guess towards my my forties, where I thought, okay, but shouldn't that next step be there now? And and I became more I I guess critical of the next step. Because that kind of thinking allows a lot of shitty jobs or shitty parts in because you kind of give yourself an excuse you're doing this because of the next thing. But I guess at some point the carrot needs to move closer. If you know what I mean, Marc (25:05) You know, no, it makes a ton of sense. Paul (25:08) But it reminded me funnily, or I mean probably it makes no sense in any other head than in mine, to to kind of a provocation that you you made yesterday. and I wanna consciously close the topic of, you know, how do you make those career choices in terms of Marc (25:15) Ha ha. Paul (25:25) money versus learning versus career chains versus you know how good is your boss, which I think all of the things are super important, to what we discussed yesterday on the phone about, what is your dream job Is it just about the job or does it encompass more than that? Like the freedom it gives you, like your dad said, like what I said, like use you Marc (25:32) Talvez. Paul (25:46) suppose my choices are are made like this at the moment and they are that I value my freedom more now than I did ten years ago. I I didn't realize I guess. And and you make different choices and you maybe let go of some of the career ambitions, etcetera, etcetera. Marc (26:04) Well, that's the tension we were surfacing around, dream job and dream state, And it is an interesting tension I think that a lot of people are facing these days. Paul (26:12) I think to think about your dream state is a luxury. Marc (26:17) A hundred percent. Paul (26:18) And and and I mean l let's face it, all job choices are a luxury where you have choices that feed you, feed your family, feed your loved ones so that's that's I mean privilege number one. And I guess privilege number two is when you get to think about you know, is is there something else out there? And and to me, I as I said, I was forced into a pause. After I had reached what was my dream job and what frankly would still be my dream job if I had no other obligation outside of a job. And that with that I mean kids that are in an age where they're still fantastic to play with and to spend time with, and where I think I can really have an impact that I will not be able to have again in five or seven or ten years' time. but I am very happy I was able to have this pause and and have people around me that that that Marc (27:04) Yeah. Paul (27:11) push the pause button for me, not only the people who fired me, but also the people around me afterwards who said, Do you really want to repeat this? Do you really have to prove yourself again? And and that to me was great insight to see, you know what? No, I don't. I proved something to myself and I'm I can finally put this aside and and do the things that still I still need to make money, obviously, and I still need to make ends meet, etc. etc. But Marc (27:26) Mm. Paul (27:40) Do I have to go and prove something? Not as much. as I did in the 20 years of my career before. And that's when I started looking more for dream state, if you want, which is highly governed for me by freedom. That's my h number one kind of goal to be able to decide for myself. Yeah. What is it? live free or die in New Hampshire. Yeah? Marc (27:52) Mm. You're so American. I love it. Yeah. Live free or die. Paul (28:06) I So that's my take on the on the state. I think it's a luxury. But I also do think that I see a lot of successful people who do not use this luxury. I've had many conversations with people who were double, triple CEOs, who had I don't know, two, three more zeros on their bank account. And we know people who have two, three more zeros on their bank account who still fucking kill themselves instead of being, whatever with their kids doing other things, playing golf for fuck's sake. I don't care what you wanna do, Marc (28:36) We we we've talked about this when your job becomes your life and you know nothing else, right? And and the inability to know what would do if you or or how to fuck off brings me profound sadness. That means you're you're quite lost. So actually, for for our audience if you can't figure out what you would do with a few extra zeros in your bank account or f or an extra day in your week that gets freed up. Send to me exactly. Paul (29:02) Send them to me. No, but you know, it really reminds me of this book w we talked about before where in the money chapter, right, the five types of wealth, i he defines like write down what kind of wealth you wanna have and then when you've achieved that, then you're done. And I think the same is true for your job. Because if you don't, you will always want more and you will always progress and go and go and go and prove more, improve more, improve more. So I think that that's actually kind of the same mechanism. Marc (29:15) Mm. I love that. I love that. I I would like to to put this career change conversation, in the context of AI. And so imagine you are trying to change your career now. Paul (29:45) Mm. Marc (29:54) and you know, you're looking for jobs, you're looking for the next stepping stone in your career. And I I imagine if you're in our audience, you're you're somewhere in your, prime of your life. how do you how would you, Paul, model that for the AI era? You know, it's it's this is all nice to like talk about it before. What about now? Tell me. Paul (30:14) Two things. Two things. Number one, a job that gives me the opportunity and the need to dive in deep into this technology. Because I had the opportunity to spend twenty hours each week for the past five months on this. And the the the twelve months before it was ten. And and because I had a job that allowed me to do this. So I would look for a job where they would push me into this technology and tell me, Hey Paul, create something with an agent. Do it. And I pay you for it. Number one. Marc (30:30) Mm. Yep. Yep. Paul (30:49) Number two, I would have to have the perspective that I can make a difference as a human. And to tell you a different anecdote, I had a call this morning, phone call with a friend who told me I just came out of the meeting, the meeting was amazing and you know what it was? It was just amazing because I was able to tell something difficult to a client and it went really well and and I thought to myself, Hey, I did this really well and I said, Congratulations, my friend, you just did something that AI will never be able to do. Marc (31:24) Mm. Interesting. Paul (31:26) So find a job that also gives you these two extremes almost. Marc (31:30) So what I love about what you're saying and I agree with, is part one is prove that you can be an individual contributor. Paul (31:42) I think it's more than that. I think it's get an opportunity to learn what the fuck is going on in this world. Marc (31:47) that's true. And therefore, because the future will be most likely, you know, if you're not running the fucking company, you're gonna be an intro individual contributor of some way. Like like sh prove that you can master technology and have the wisdom to actually bring something like like I think that to me feels really kind of interesting, right? Because what what I've heard, and this is just a signal of executives who are applying to roles that now kind of use AI native startups, is that Paul (31:58) Yes, yes, I know we're getting it now. Yes, absolutely agree. Yes, yes. Yeah. Marc (32:10) Those AI natives, they don't want executives. Because executives manage people. Guess what? You're not you no one fucking wants that right now. Well, how can you translate how can your wisdom make shit right now? You know, that to me is really interesting. And the second piece I love because I like I here's the thought. So I I think modern capitalism has taught us to behave like machines, right? Paul (32:21) Mm? Mm? Marc (32:39) In the sense of a as leaders or lead like machines, right? You're doing process process optimization, you're doing f efficiency, you're trying to maximize margin like like you're making the most logical and mathematical and precise way for not for everything, but for most things, right? I mean that is that is kind of your your role as CFO certainly as as operations, but okay. Let me let me let me just continue on the soapbox. Like Paul (32:56) I raised my hand to disagree though, but okay, keep on going. Marc (33:04) Think more like a machine than not. And I think hopefully with AI, you are able to think and embrace thinking more like a human in the ways that you also described, right? And in your in your part two. How can you automate all the machine-like qualities of your brain, which you still need to have, but and then focus on being more generative? and more open. So that's my thought. Feel free to Paul (33:29) All right. All right. Here i I I know I love the twist and but I just don't want to get carried too far away on on this AI topic because obviously we could go very deep down this rabbit hole. Marc (33:39) Cool. This felt very enlightening. Paul (33:39) All right, man. Nice conversation. Marc (33:43) well, Paul, you know what? this was a great conversation. Yeah, I've got I've got a a couple of takeaways that I thought I'd love to share with you one is that, you know, I think there's the the the three paradigms of, you know, if you're changing it better be role, industry or or geography, which which is I I agree. It's good great to be reminded of that. And I think this lesson that, you know, sometimes you gotta take a step back to move forward. And and I I see, you know, a lot of parallels I think in all of us actually, as we're we're pivoting, and by the way, we're much happier because we did. we have to put a little bit of our ego aside as we kind of make a a kind of shift and and change, you know. And I think that to me is it's a great reminder. and and not to beat yourself down. the second is like, you know, be really cognizant of the kind of wealth that you want to have and a and and like align yourself is because then you know when you're done. And it's a good reminder of that. 'cause I I think people lose sight of that and make sure you're not chasing numbers just to chase numbers. Paul (34:41) Yes. Yes. No, no, let's let's make sure that Carrot actually comes closer. You know? And I really only have one to add, have no matter when, always a step afterwards in mind. Because I do think optionality is always great so think of where this brings you and what this can do for you later. Marc (34:53) Yeah, that's Paul (35:10) And that also means sometimes against everything in my body and every grain, patience. Marc (35:19) Yeah. I'm gonna add one more too. Paul (35:20) I've seen great careers develop because of patience. Marc (35:26) That's well, that's actually so profound we should probably close there. I'm gonna add one more, I actually think like it's also helpful to bring the context of AI into be prepared to understand how you can thrive in your job. using this technology really potently and powerfully and second of all from a human perspective, ensure that it's not just the tack, but also you're leading forward in a way that that helps you grow, you know? And you're you're just not a cog in a machine. Paul (35:54) Yes. Beautiful Mark, thank you so much. What a pleasure, as always. Marc (36:02) Cheers. Paul (36:03) Cheers.