Don't Outsource Your Baggage | Ep 50

Episode 50 === [00:00:00] Intro / 50th episode celebration --- Marc: welcome to Guys Like Us. Um, is this our 50th Paul: It very well is Marc: Wow. Okay, so it's the 50th time we're, we're going to air, and so this is a podcast, of course, about all the things that you start to think about when you're in your prime, you know, very much mid-life. you're gonna hear about stories, family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, relationships in their good times and the bad times, something we're gonna talk about today, but all the things that, uh, shape us and continue to move us. I am your co-host, Mark Winter. I am still recording from, the incredibly empty wine cellar in, uh, in my building here in New York City. I'm an entrepreneur, father of two, part-time artist, part-time creative. What's the difference? Doesn't matter. But anyway, really happy to be here with you, and I'm joined by, in real [00:01:00] time, in real life, by my Paul: In flesh and blood, Paul Fattinger calling from New York today. Usually living in tranquil Austria, but today I am here. Who am I? I am, I guess, a fractional of many things, a fractional executive entrepreneur, rabbit hole lover. For this episode, extremely relevant, divorced father of three, currently single, um, spend lots of money on therapies Marc: Yeah, all that. And so look, this is our 50th episode, which is a lot of fun. And, and we thought we are gonna honor our 50th time by, by going down, you know, in New York we call it the third rail. The third rail in a subway is that one rail, you know, the train touch it, otherwise you go off. and we, we did this one 'cause it's all about relationships, and we thought it would be a lot of fun is to talk about what work and what doesn't. I'm gonna play the role about what works. Paul's gonna play the role of what doesn't- obviously. [00:02:00] A- and we'll, we'll do a bit of a switcheroo at the end. So, um, give it a listen. We're really proud of this one, and it's a nice celebratory Paul: I'm Before we start though with this, um, we are not sponsored by anyone right now other than by Marc: Yeah, we emptied our Paul: Yeah, Marc: Yeah. was News & banter --- Paul: Um, any other Terminator things that come to your mind, uh, from, you know, Marc: You know, uh, there, there's a lot, but, like, I would say the vibe in New York City, I keep joking to everyone, has been better Track2-Combo 2: than sex Marc: and, you know, the energy in the streets is like, you know, the Knicks won, the World Cup's playing around. You know, when we were walking around last night, I mean, it just felt like something was happening. It was crazy. And, um, I think New York's having an urban moment, so that's my terminator for Paul: That's awesome. I'm gonna do a totally unrelated termina- [00:03:00] terminated to today's topic. I gotta say that, you know, I have been focusing again for the last few weeks to look at businesses, um, that, you know, I, I can invest in with a, with a group of co-investors, and l- really lots of interesting shit has, uh, you know, over my table. Nothing that is, is, um, you know, ready to roll or anything. But I find it amazing what kind of businesses out there, are out there that are, like, 5, 10, 20, 30 million turnover. Make good money, man. Um, which is a problem because then you have to pay a lot for them. uh, it is so interesting to talk to the founders, talk to the managers, Marc: That's Paul: what makes them tick, um, to think about how you could actually bring them into the next generation and lead them through the next phase. I found that ex- exhilarating I, I'm really, really happy about this part of my, my Marc: Uh, I'm gonna take your work-related anecdote to throw in, uh, a [00:04:00] work-related and, and maybe idiocy is too harsh a word, but I have to say, like I'm talking to a lot of AI founders at the moment, and the confidence that they have of how they could replicate a business so easily through code is I think they're, they're totally undervaluing, uh, the legacy of a brand, institutional trust with the relationships, et cetera. Yeah, you can replicate like, you know, a Nike product, but it's still Nike, right? Paul: Very, very interesting. You know, my idiocy is actually you. Why did you buy Michelob Ultra in stadium where they had so many other nice beers on tab Marc: You know what? You know what? I'm gonna defend that. Um, I knew I was gonna have a lot of beer, and it was really hot Paul: this was the Germany-Ecuador Marc: Yeah, Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, I overdid it, and it was, it, that was dumb. Relationship success topic setup --- Paul: Anyways, let's dive into this Marc: So we're approaching episode 50. Can you imagine [00:05:00] And can you imagine that we got to episode 50 without you discussing or us discussing Paul: I can't imagine that Marc: I can't Paul: cause it's a good Marc: I thi- There's a good reason. Yeah, it's a good reason. And, uh, you know, uh, because you, we, we liquored you up with, uh, a beer and, uh, a half bottle of wine, you, you came back, you're like, "Okay, you know what, Mark? I'm ready. I'm ready to talk about relationships," right? All the way through, which is actually quite interesting, Paul: It, it could be the liquor or we have this phenomenon that when you're deep in the seventh season of a series, you know, you need to, you need to kill somebody, you know? In of the Marc: Exactly. to Exactly. Paul: it interesting. we can argue what, what what this is, but it's Marc: Okay. Fantastic. Fantastic. And, um, can you explain to everyone what, why your, why relationships has been a th- It's taken to the 50th episode to talk about Paul: Well, m- m- what do you mean? Maybe it's the... No, the fact that, I mean, obviously I'm divorced, which is, [00:06:00] you know, the very public stamp of a, a relationship that has failed. W- is funnily enough still a stigma, uh, Marc: Which is kind of crazy, but Paul: is if you look at the stats because, uh, I think w- we Marc: Most don't Paul: might actually be in the majority, uh, the Western, uh, world. Um, but it feels like a stigma. It like a failure too. Uh, and it, it, it's, it still does sometimes. So I think that's the Marc: Okay. Uh, fair enough. I, uh, have been looking forward to this one because I think this'll be, this will be, this one will be a lot of fun. And, but I, this isn't about an inquisition or, or let's be really clear upfront, or a, uh, dissection of your, your, your divorce or also, as you know, I've, I've strong love and, and affection and consider your, your ex-wife a friend. So that's not what this is. However, what we are gonna talk a little bit about is just a philosophy of relationships. What, what makes it hard? Like, [00:07:00] like how to even start one these days, right? And, and also Tell me about it. Yeah, what'd you wanna talk about? Paul: That's what you wanna talk about. Here we go. Here we go. No. Well, actually, I wanted to ask you how... I mean, w- we're just talking about y- your amazing, uh, wife Marc: how to maintain is the other one. Exactly. Paul: And you said the title of this was Relationship Success, in from a, drawing a, a conversation we previously had, right? You learn more from your wins than from your failures, so maybe we should talk about you Marc: Wow, that is an excellent, excellent turning of the table. I like that. Um, sure, I, um, I'm gonna caveat this one with I'm gonna assume that everything I say my wife agrees with, so Paul: The good thing is she never You can do that we're not gonna tell her about all of them. Marc: Yeah, 'cause exactly. No, I'm- look, i- if this is about relationship success, I mean, look, a- and, and I'm gonna knock on wood here, I've been married, uh, 10 years, but together with my wife since [00:08:00] 2009, um, when we, when Paul and I actually first met, uh, in business school, when apparently I was talking a little bit too much bullshit, uh, in, in, in Gracia i- in Barcelona, and haven't stopped Paul: No, but I, I mean, it made you successful Oh, interesting. Marc: And, um, you know, when my wife showed up, uh, to visit me in Barcelona, the-- Paul, the very first thing he said, and he still makes this joke 15 years on, is, "How the hell are you still with, with this guy? This makes no Which is good place to start a relationship success. Like Da- date someone who doesn't make any sense, and you'll be Paul: Maybe I have a great angle here for this. You know, maybe you could think of the top three things why you think this is working, I can think of the top three things why mine haven't worked Marc: So, Marc's #1: Chemistry & attraction --- Marc: I believe that, a [00:09:00] successful relationship, at least marriage, is actually for the most part rooted in physical attraction, my friend Paris Lapas, a Greek guy, who actually, who you well you know, he, he, he, he also is a bit of a philosopher, and he used to say, "You know, Mark, you know what? In a relationship, sex is 70 percent And I thought about that for a while, but it actually, no, I think that's right. It's chemistry, right? It's, it's this, it's physical attract- It just is. Like I've... There's no reason to pretend it's not. And, uh, uh, m- my... I'm lucky enough to have a very, very beautiful wife and, and for whatever reason, um, she thinks I'm attractive. Track1-Combo 1: Maybe she has more, Paul: more than minus 1.75. Marc: Exactly. She's vision impaired. That is, this is a fun episode. Paul: Exactly. Marc: Date someone who's, like, slightly blind and she'll ok Paul: Exactly, and pretends to Marc: No, no, [00:10:00] but, but I, I, I think th- that's, that's absolutely, number one. I, I think we're, we, we've remained really attracted to each other. We've worked, I think, to stay in shape for the most part, Okay. Paul: No, I think this is lo- lovely. You know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna do, uh, now one of my ones so you Paul's #1: Don't outsource your problems --- Paul: can think of the next one. So I think what is definitely a recipe for failure is when you look for something in your relationship that you can actually only find in yourself Marc: Wow. Okay. Wow. Someone spent some time in therapy. Wow, this is great. Keep Paul: Exactly. That's your 50,000 euro answer here. 'Cause that's it you know, get Um, I think it's true for, for, for many of Marc: I believe Paul: it is interesting theory actually, right? That, that you get together with a partner, um, and there's the, the first [00:11:00] attraction and chemistry is also because it will, it will mirror you some- you something that is a very profound topic of yours And I think whether a relationship then actually makes it or not is whether you can together, you know, get over this topic. together doesn't mean that the other person helps you over it. The, together person gives you the space and the room and the trust that you work on your own shit and get over it Because when you think, like in my case, I looked for lots of things in, in, in relationships, not only in one that, um, I would've never found there Marc: Right Paul: then I went on to look for somewhere else and somewhere else and somewhere else, and never found it. And I eventually found it, Marc: It was all Paul: inside me entire but I had to find an Marc: You're like a cheap '70s novel. Paul: Exactly. I had to run the fucking train against the wall a few times I really understood what it was. Um, but I think that's, that's to me one [00:12:00] things how to fuck it up if you really think that your relationship needs to solve your problems Huh. That's a good one Marc's #2: Parenting alignment --- Marc: Um, okay, so, so for number two, uh, I'm actually gonna also draw on, on the wisdom of Paris Lappas Paul: Jesus parallel. He's actually a Greek Marc: Yeah, he's good. he's Aristotle in when my first he, he said something to me really care- which I loved. It was, it was super crazy. Like, Mark, if, like, I, I, I told you this is the real critical moment because now you're about to discover who your wife really is as a mother and this is something you can't control So the first thing that you can control is like, look, you know, if you, if, you know, the sex is bad, you know, with your wife, okay, great. And you don't have great, move on, get another, right? Exactly. Uh, um, for, for, for both your sakes, you know? But, but the moment that your, [00:13:00] your wife becomes a mom, that's the, that's the 50/50 gamble because on one hand she could be, you know, more relaxed, easier, et cetera. You know, this is his words, on the other hand, she could be a total nightmare, you know, full on like- helicopter helicopter that, like, Paul: crazy sh- badass shit, you to eat now and The, the Marc: mor- the moment the morning starts, she puts on her helmet, Paul: Not like your wife who told me, you know, "I just bought ice cream for the kids and beer for myself Yeah, exactly. Marc: Well, which is the secret, right? Exactly. So then you realize, oh, okay, like, you know, uh, you know, uh, and this is luck, right? I mean, well, I guess you could al- argue all of it is a bit chemistry and luck, but, you know, I think, um, being this is... 'Cause kids can be a relationship destroyer in one way or the other, and you never know how your partner's gonna be, what kind of parent they're gonna be. You have a hint, right? You assume that they love you, of course, that they, they'll be loving is a given, right? But how they'll express that is, uh, you know, it, it feels a little bit like playing roulette. [00:14:00] And, with that said, uh, I thought that was a really interesting bi- bit of wisdom Paul: And what's the recipe for, for success then? Luck? Track1-Combo 1: an Paul: alignment on how to be a I Marc: think alignment on how to be a parent. Well, well said. Wow, that's a great leading... You, you, yeah, you're on fire. Uh, nonetheless, I mean, this was, um, an important one. I, I, I-- You can't overlook this, I think, I think how you show up as parents is, is super important for relationship longevity and success Paul's #2: Speak your truth --- Paul: My number two, um, of which I was also guilty of basically in all of my relationships, is what is a sure way on the road to failure is, Marc: I'm on the edge of my seat. Paul: um, not speaking your truth. Not speaking up for what [00:15:00] you actually need Whether this need is rooted now, something that you did with or not doesn't matter. but I know that I as a person very often didn't speak up. You know? I not, not that I was low maintenance, I would never suggest that, you know. Uh, but to really talk about the things that really matter to you or that really mattered to me, that maybe bothered me, that I needed, that I thought I wanted, to express those needs. And I felt I, I never expressed them because I was afraid that I would rattle the boat or something, or that, you know, it would Track1-Combo 1: cause Paul: a fight. You know, it would cause a or whatever. While in the end, this- these things kind of stay there and, and they, they eat at you and, and then you get to a point where it's too late and they ate too much of your substance too much of substance of maybe love and compassion for the other person, maybe also yourself. So not speaking your truth, uh, was for me a huge, uh, [00:16:00] fail. And I, I really admire couples I'm friends with, with them, and I hear how openly they discuss their deepest feelings and fears and wants and desires, and I think that's incredibly powerful and I, I really... I, I envy that, and that is I would love to, to model in, in, in future For the Marc: Um, okay. Marc's #3: Play to your strengths --- Marc: uh, I love that. My third is, I gotta say, like, playing, knowing your lanes and playing to your strengths I, I, like, I th- I think, like, I'm, I'm very hel- happy to, to delegate to, to Vera for the things that she's uniq- uniquely great at, and she delegates to me what I'm uniquely we don't second-guess each other, and we, we might sell each other on a thing, you a, a thing or two. and she's, really clear, uh, what, [00:17:00] what I also love, actually, to your second point about what she needs, you know, if she needs more from me or not, you know, on a, on a thing. It's like, "I really need you to focus here," et cetera. By the way, I've also seen you use this, uh, seen you use this vocabulary in our relationship when you're like, "Mark, I need six hours of your undivided attention, and here's wh-." It's cool. It's clarifying, right? To declare that. It's great And this one is, you know, look, I, I mean, I still play a little bit of the visionary aspirational with, like, you know, husband, you know, in our relationship. Here's what we can be. Here's what we should do. Like, you know, this year's gonna be X, the year of Y. Um, but she also, you know, is thoughtful and s- to understand how to make it happen, you know, in a really, in a great way. So that complementary skill set is really great Paul: Wow, Okay, Marc: And by the way, it took us a while to get there A- a- and no, no, I j- I just wanna qualify it's not like all this has been landed. Paul: to bring this down to Earth again here, um, [00:18:00] how to fuck it up number I, I do often think, um, this thing you, you, you know, in, in, in good And I find it's, uh, it's not an this is not a clear-cut statement because I think there is a time to go- to leave things, especially when kids and, and you are in a relationship that is maybe toxic and it doesn't work and you fight a lot, I am sure it's much better to just fucking finally let go I do also think Paul's #3: Zoom out before big decisions --- Paul: before that point actually comes, there are a few moments where you already want to leave, where it's probably better to stay and work and give space and breathe and fucking zoom out, man. Zoom out as far as you can, to the moon you have to, [00:19:00] to see the bigger picture Marc: That's interesting Paul: Um, because if you don't and you stay in that, you know, Mostly when you situation in your relationship, also very stressed, um, in a very agitated state that's a state where it's not a great point to make a decision. I always say that one of my biggest learnings in, in, in everything in life was don't make a decision when you're super hyped, and don't make a decision when you're super fucked up, right? Make a decision where you somehow feel you in an equilibrium and clear. Yeah. And when you are in a hot phase in your relationship, when you're fighting a lot and things are not going well or you're not feeling comfortable or zoom out and stay in and work, right? And then there comes the point where, you know, the work is, uh, not paying off anymore and it's too late. Fair enough. And that happens in fifty percent of the cases. Fuck You know, that's fine. But I, I really truly think that there is something to this statement and, uh, that zooming [00:20:00] out and getting a perspective is, um, extremely beneficial. Or let's phrase it the other way around. If you don't, um, it can quickly lead into the gutter of your realtionship Marc: Yeah. Can I, can I qualify something? Like, not to make you feel better or worse, but just w- while we were saying, like, I've never seen you... Like, I've you know? And, um, maybe not the very, very worst, but at your worst, when you're and you are a completely different Not, not that different, but, like, you were, you Maybe it's because I'm not in a relationship right Track1-Combo 1: . now. Well, no, I mean, Marc: I think, like... I mean, I just... You know, you were chain-smoking. You were just, like, like, sure. I mean, you were open. I mean, not that different. I sh- uh, I don't wanna be... Maybe I was being a little bit of, um, exaggerating, but I, I mean, I could feel, Yeah. It wa- it was just, there's Track1-Combo 1: I Marc: lots of decisions in, in, in every direction, also in relationships afterwards before that almost made under duress, Paul: yeah Marc: that's my[00:21:00] And, Paul: And, and, and this is not a great basis Marc: And, and this is another situation No, a- and everyone, and anyone will tell you that, like, you know, un- unless you do, like, ridiculous military training with the Navy SEALs or something like this, right? Like, where they, where they, where you're trained to make the right decision under It's, it's it's incredibly challenging, right? Paul: let's face it, you don't have to. You can actually take Marc: That's just it, right? And I think that's really, that, that's a strong That's right. Yeah. That's strong. Paul: That was strong. So now I want to give both of us a joker Marc: Okay. Paul: And we can also name the one thing, right, you think... Because I s- I talked about all the negative can now name your number one, you know, how does it go to shit, uh, recipe, and I do the other way on, on the positive side. And before we do this, I, I want to, so you can think about it, I Marc: already know, but Esther Perel & final round --- Paul: I wanna share something I really found helpful, interesting is, um, the very famous, I mean, she's in so many podcasts, wrote so many books, Esther Perel. Track1-Combo 1: My Marc: favourite Track1-Combo 1: yeah, she's great. And, she describes why it is so difficult, nowadays to keep a relationship. [00:22:00] Paraphrasing this obviously, I don't know if I quote her correctly. But basically,what we expect from a relationship today is actually a very new phenomenon in this world and in most of the other parts of the world, it doesn't exist in this form because, you know, a marriage, a long-term relationship used to be almost more an economic, affair than it was a romantic one, and then the, the romanticism came in and, and we want so many things from one relationship. We want the romanticism, the sex, we want the security, the safeness, the partnership. So we look, for so many things in the relationship to one person, Marc: Hmm. Paul: and that is incredibly, incredibly challenging. So the fact that many of those relationships with all these expectations, and you all know my principle that happiness equals, reality minus expectations. you know, if you expect all of this, it's gonna be Yeah. Marc: need to figure out what prioritize. No, I agree. And, and back to like, you [00:23:00] know, Paris prioritize, like helped do the card sort for me in a way. Paul: Yeah, So, but what's your number one route to hell? Marc: Hell, uh, you a story I, I wouldn't say our relationship broke, but it was, it was of a not, not in a great spot, is when unilaterally make decisions about what we should be doing, And if she disagreed with it, I was like, "Fuck o-" Like, like... A- and they were always awesome ideas, I felt like. I just never brought along for the ride. I mean, like, the- there's minor stuff, but, you know, but to entertain our audience. You know, uh, I c- I remember this. I decided that I needed to be at a party in Istanbul for my friend's 40th birthday party, right? This, by the way, this... Stop And, and, and Vera's like, "Okay." And she had this other thing in Germany, right? And I just was like,[00:24:00] cancel the Germany thing. You need to come to..." Like, I just and, uh, I guess where, where I'm going with this is that, you know, when I more vision-led without belief-building led, back to this conviction piece on another episode I was, I was like, "This is the most obvious and most amazing thing to do, is just do it." Um, uh, that is a, a funny example of probably many others that I've done, uh, that I've felt were the w- And I never did the, um, belief building and the stor- Like, l- let's ride along for the journey for it. Like, this is, this is the kind of thing. And, you know, I've made a lot of executive decisions that were amazing, I think, you know? And also some dumbass Paul: where you were not the only Right Yeah, exactly. Fair enough. Marc: They're usually around fun shit, and thank God no- nothing financially destructive. Yeah. What about you? What's one of your Paul: your great- I think one of the great things I, I picked up in, in, in, [00:25:00] for context, loads of therapy sessions in couples and, uh, in different constellations and so on, that I really liked two of those, therapists told one thing you need in a successful relationship is a common project, something you do together Marc: That's not kids Paul: And that is not kids. And guess what? Kids are not a common project. Because you do that, that goes away. And I thought, and that could be some people work together, some build a house together, some people, I don't know, build a business, whatever it is. And I find, I, I find this so intriguing as an idea, and it's something that I really also, now that I'm single and I'm happy and it's fine, this is something I really look forward to and, and almost long for, to build something with, with a partner it's something that really, you know, uh, bonds you and is fun and is, is amazing. So I think that's a, that's a cool thing Marc: Nice. That's re- that's really good advice. Actually, I haven't done that in a while. I'm gonna, [00:26:00] I'm gonna You're very brave Paul: You Wrap-up & takeaways --- Paul: too Okay, Paul, so this is great. So look, uh, I love the, your conversation. My, my takeaways from what you, you had to say was first of all, like, what, you know what? Marc: Very often what you're looking for could be inside yourself You know, that's, that was, that's really powerful. That was potent, uh, Track1-Combo 1: Poetry in motion Exactly. Poetry in Marc: Exactly. Really, poetry in motion was really good. You know, the second thing that you talked about is, you know, you really have to speak your truth You know, there's no way people know how to act on how you're feeling if you're not r- really being true to yourself and going forward And the third, um... Wow, we're always doing threes. It's funny. Uh, but it's, but, uh, they're all Track1-Combo 1: We are Paul: We are. We are. It's ridic- so pathetic, I know. but, um, but the good times and bad times Marc: and and, you know, n- not jumping ship very often, like, like when, when, you know, you could stick through it, especially in key moments Paul: [00:27:00] Very well summarized, Mark. Let me see if I can remember what your hot points were of how you actually make it work. Number one was to quote the great Paris Latta, "70% of the relationship is sex." Or as you translated into something more, um, communicatable, is, uh, 70% is chemistry Then another point you talked about was staying in your lanes. Yeah. You know, knowing what is yours and what is hers, and empowering her to be, you know, the best version of, of, of her or him, wh- whoever your partner And then the s- second or third thing you mentioned, um, was about alignment in parenthood, which is a bit of a, kind of a surprise bag because you never know- Right um, before you actually have That's the gamble. Yeah. Here we go. That was a beautiful conversation, Mark. I think it's... I mean, it's very fitting for our 50th episode Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm proud of you, proud of us. That Marc: proud Actually pretty... Might way easier than I That Paul: So here we go. We're gonna do [00:28:00] all these deep talks See you