guyslikeus EP09: let's talk about legacy

Marc Winter (00:12) Hello, welcome to guys like us, the Ozzy Osbourne of 1980s, the podcast, little crazy, little nuts out of control. This is how I'd like to think of us. How are you? Paul Fattinger (00:27) I'm great, but I'm afraid the only thing that's out of control is our mics and our ability to actually control them and not double record them. But I'm great. I learned a lot of new things today, which was the idea of the podcast, right? So I now know what a, what was it? Mic bleed and cross talk is. Marc Winter (00:47) Well, you know, man, you've been like any good reader, which is a little bit what we're going to talk about tonight, know, obsessed with a problem. It's nice to see how your brain is working in pursuit of finding a solution. You know, I think we're all going to benefit from it. Paul Fattinger (01:02) I'm just kind of really a little bit pissed off that you buy nice equipment and it doesn't work. But then I just thought it's like when you buy yourself really nice skis, doesn't mean that you can actually ski. So I'm feeling that we just bought ourselves okay equipment for podcasting, which doesn't mean that we know what the fuck we're doing as we can clearly see and hear. Marc Winter (01:21) Well, look, you know, I'm trying to make it up to you. So ⁓ first of all, ⁓ it's nice to share a glass of wine with you. We're drinking a nice Napa cap, right? We don't actually drink Californians too much. We're usually sticking in Europe. Paul Fattinger (01:37) Yeah, I never do because they're too expensive to buy and they just don't make sense value for money was I find in Europe, but I'm happy to and we're sitting here in the game room of Mark's funny building. We tried the wine room yesterday, which was like basically an echo jammer. And with both of our voices that don't seem to be very, let's say gentle that didn't work. So we found this space now we're hoping it works and we have a great topic today, Mark. What is it? Marc Winter (02:04) Yeah, so we thought it'd just be kind of fun to reflect a little bit on legacy. And I think legacy is a big word, naturally, how we think about it. And I personally have been sort of really obsessed with the topic recently, not just because of the great reflection, the project we talked about, about capturing the stories of our elders in a podcast format, but rather like, personal legacy and impact and how what we wanna leave behind changes. And I think that's really interesting. And spending a little bit time with you these days, I'm reflected just so much about your own transformation, actually, both as a friend, you're always great, but just of what you're prioritizing and why. Paul Fattinger (02:55) First of all, you need to hold your mic closer to your mouth, I think. And I see, because I see on the screen, whenever you talk, even in your low, sexy radio ⁓ voice, that the fucking meter there goes to yellow all the time. So anyways, you know there's a funny story, actually, before I answer your question, which I don't get, so I'm stalling a little bit. ⁓ A friend of mine once told me that he was told, I think by a therapist, he was like... You know what the trick is with women? Whatever you say, you have to say it with a sexy late night radio moderator voice and everything is gonna be okay. So you're gonna say, hi honey, tonight I'm gonna go out with my friends. I'm gonna get trashed, but I love you. Marc Winter (03:42) Okay, ⁓ well done. Can I elaborate on my question to you? All right. so, well, can mute your mic while I tell the story. So, dear listeners, I would like you to close your eyes and reflect 15 years ago, where I'm meeting the professor, Paul Fatinger, in business school. Paul Fattinger (03:48) Yes, please because I don't think it's gonna come back to me. I was so focused on not fucking up the mic. So yeah Marc Winter (04:10) and a deep, I would say, career-focused trajectory that he had at that point in time. was like, think he wasn't quite captain of the consulting club, though he pretty much was captain of everything, doing work sessions, really trying to bring up his skill. And I thought, okay, this guy just wants to lead company. And sure enough, you did. You went from a consultant to leading consulting group to CEO of Wombikes for... for a while and now you're finding yourself in a moment where that pursuit of the professional has changed its meaning somewhat. And I'm loving this moment for you because I think I'm learning a lot from it as you're processing ⁓ that shift of what matters. And I think the thing that I think is really powerful for a lot of our listeners is that you have confidence, I think, in your decision. about where you were and where you're going and what matters. And I think that's really interesting to benefit from. And I think it relates a lot to legacy. Paul Fattinger (05:16) And here is my question, that's why I don't think I got it before, is how does it relate to legacy for you? Marc Winter (05:22) Well, I think a lot of people, and maybe this is the most American first insight, For Americans, legacy is very often their work, right? It's their job. What I left behind was, I was a marketing manager at the paper company for 30 years, and I had these kinds of customer, and that to me is so connected to their time on the planet ⁓ that... that type of obsession ⁓ kind of dominates, I think, so much of their ego and what matters. Paul Fattinger (05:58) I think that's the interesting one because I never thought of legacy, that's the funny thing, and I never thought of legacy as a work thing. And I almost sometimes, I very often think that I maybe think too little about legacy because, okay, let's, legacy and purpose to me are close. And I hope we're not just, know, fucking with words now and which are related but I often am not envious but I'm very I'm looking up to people who have that purpose in their work right it's like I have to do something to change the world and so on that's kind of like you know you do that and then that's I guess that's legacy right you have a purpose if you have that purpose maybe that's legacy to me and I never thought what I'm gonna do on this planet work wise is gonna leave a legacy or I want to leave a legacy or Paul was the greatest CEO. That was something, or crying out our greatest consultant, who cares, right? I never thought about this. Legacy as an idea really came into my life, I think, with kids and even later, think with kids plus the time I had now to think about what I'm here for and what could be my legacy. Marc Winter (07:08) ⁓ Okay, I mean that's kind of interesting because I think certainly in this country you just said change the world, use those phrases, right? I mean that's a lot of startup culture, it's a lot of tech culture here, you know, like I think famous example like Elon Musk, if you talk about legacy, it's very much tied to his career and the businesses that he launched. know, River Murdock is in the news today and absolutely doing the same. Paul Fattinger (07:30) he also has 52 kids that's also legacy Marc Winter (07:34) Totally, mean that's the heart of the conversation. I've always had this theory, which is a simplistic thing, I probably mentioned this on this podcast before, but you've heard my equation of money and meaning. Well, let me indulge you for a sec. So I've always been fascinated that the firm I had worked for, Paul Fattinger (07:46) No, haven't, but go ahead please, Marc Winter (07:56) for so long and helped lead. It was very much focused on giving companies purpose, And defining their why. But really what was about giving the leaders that ran them their why. And I was always fascinated that they would, always awash in money and cash, right? But they would pay us millions to give them meaning. They could never find it themselves. And, you know, in many ways I was in the meeting business for many, many years, you know. And, you know, some leaders had it, they knew, but it was really aligning, you know, everyone around, okay, here's what we're here to do and why. And then they would take that, and then they wrote books about it, you know, they're like, okay, that's the idea I had all along, and you this is what I stand for. Paul Fattinger (08:45) Yeah, I hear you. I totally hear you on that legacy and companies legacies. But you know, on the personal front, I struggle with that topic. I think that's what I'm trying to say. I struggle with that topic. And I think, okay, I think of my dad, had he built a small company that that was kind of a legacy. then in the end, also, then he sold it and it now, you know, became something else. And I think by the time he's gonna go, no one's gonna know that anymore. And no one's gonna give a shit. And I don't think he does. But by the way, Right, so I'm not sure it's about things that you build unless you are like Elon Musk and build a starship that brings humanity to Mars. I I don't want to put any value on that now, but that's a big fucking change, right? Marc Winter (09:28) Well, you know, I'm not so sure I agree. Well, I'll speak for myself. ⁓ I definitely think it's about more things that you make and build and give away than and of course, the primary legacy I think naturally people have is raising good families, right, and kids and, you know, having that type of impact as a place. But I often think about, you know, legacy in the end is what you're remembered for. Right? Paul Fattinger (09:57) That's a good one. Yeah, what do you remember for? I thought about that. What do you remember for? But in the end, that means how and if you touch people's lives with whatever you do, right? Isn't that the legacy then in the end? And I think we should just keep the mics on because otherwise it's a very weird conversation. Marc Winter (10:16) No, no, 100%. But I think, it's not, but very often it helps to be working with things, know, intangible things or others that to be remembered for otherwise it's, you know, experiences, right? And experiences fade. Paul Fattinger (10:31) Okay, listen, let's turn this around. If, God forbid, I died tomorrow, what would you think was my legacy? Marc Winter (10:41) That is a very, very tough question. ⁓ Look, obviously three beautiful children, it's a legacy of some kind, they'll remember you, etc. I think... ⁓ Paul Fattinger (10:54) Okay, sorry, what's yours? Marc Winter (10:56) I think it's still being written. But I don't, I look, I think that's it. Like, like, actually, I think that's the heart of the question, I think a little bit is, I think legacy comes at the end, right? I mean, legacy for me is when you're done with life and you've weaved, then when you leave the earth, that's exactly like the kind of ⁓ thing you're most remembered for. That's what matters. I mean, that by me is the definition of legacy. Paul Fattinger (10:58) but what But isn't legacy a product of ego to still survive after you're gone? Because people still think of you, people still admire the things you do, even when you are not here anymore. Isn't that kind of like the external affirmation for eternity type of thing? And if it's that, and we go back to, know, mean, is that great? Who gives a... Marc Winter (11:27) Totally. Look. Paul Fattinger (11:52) Is that important? And I know there's a bit of a contrary view on that, but... Marc Winter (11:55) No, no, no, no, actually, no, I'd love to push. So I think. Here's why it's important for me. And let me answer that. I agree with you. There's a whole argument to be made that this is really about satisfying the ego. It's about the puffery and maybe energizing yourself to fuel ambition, et cetera, so people can say, wow, look what this guy did. But for me, it's a little bit different. I think ⁓ I use the idea of legacy to fuel my creative energy and that makes me want to make, leaving something behind. And I use that as a source of energy, more like wouldn't be great if my kids or my family, like if when I get hit by a bus. Paul Fattinger (12:38) Hmm. She's really today. I mean, wow Marc Winter (12:56) idea to fuel some of my art and like and my activities and even like something you know, think it's like to do is an amazing creative output. Paul Fattinger (12:58) you Marc Winter (13:08) I think in the back of it is the idea that hey we made a thing. Paul Fattinger (13:11) Yeah, hear you, I'm not sure, it's to me, this is the, I don't know, somehow I'm now coming off like, I think negative legacy is a negative thing. And because it to me had now has this touch of, you know, it's basically like the Putin, she conversation that they want to change their organs and live forever. And you know, in a negative interpretation, that is also legacy. But you want to live forever, that's why you want to create something that is still there when you're gone, kind of thing. And if that's what you need to fuel your creativity, isn't it the admiration of others that actually fuels your creativity? And is that the right fuel, I'm asking myself. And I think I know the answer to that. Marc Winter (14:01) Yeah, it's, but fair. But I don't think it's the admiration of others, though maybe that's a part of it, for sure. That's part of it, if I'm honest, totally part of it. But it's more about, this was, I made something worthwhile. Paul Fattinger (14:15) And here I'm totally with you and here I can and 100 % connect. And so I kind of think to me right now what it is, it's like I had an interesting comment in a kind of a workshop on this conference the other day, right? And it was a very interesting group that met of an entrepreneur that is now on his, I don't know, third, fourth venture. And this venture is about connecting business leaders with Marc Winter (14:31) Yeah. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (14:43) the topic of mindfulness in a sense, right? And bringing that into the conversation, but really as a forefront topic. And he brought together leaders that all were on that path, which was a beautiful thing because you saw highly successful people that were really also highly reflected in doing their work and going there, which was, think, also very encouraging that you can be out in this world actually kicking ass without, I always say it very bluntly, without being an asshole. So, whole story, long story short. Marc Winter (15:06) I would say very bluntly without being an asshole. So, a whole story, no more story short than this woman asks this question, she says, know, I'm worried that if we all turn you towards and look for what you want to access, no one is left to actually do the work to make this world a better place. Paul Fattinger (15:12) then this woman asked this question, she said, you know, I'm worried that if we all turn inwards and look into being mindful and what do we want ourselves? No one is left to actually do the work to make this world a better place. And I felt caught in a way because in my sabbatical in the last 11 months, there was a phase where I turned inward and I very clearly said, I don't give a flying F. And everyone, it was when... Trump was elected and obviously, you know, then there was Gaza and lots of terrible things happening. And then people around me were like all very much concerned about this. And I had to be honest, wasn't because I couldn't change it anyways. My concern wouldn't have done anything. I felt very egoistic about it, to be honest. But also what came out of this phase was that, you know, what I can change and do now is my three kids and how I... how I relate in their lives and what, that's my ultimate direct impact. Marc Winter (16:12) Well, I see you, that's actually a lot of what I wanted you to share with the audience because I knew that about you and I find it really interesting because it is a shift and I think it's a beautiful shift in a way, but also I think it allows you to chase something a little bit more, right? A different type of meaning. Paul Fattinger (16:35) Yeah, but what I wanted to say is that came and then I focused on that and I still am and I still think it's that I have, I wouldn't say I've done so many things wrong, but if you look from the outside, there's so many things I think I've learned quite late in my life and I very well know that some people never do, so I'm very happy that I did. But I also think that those lessons you can learn earlier and the reason why it took a while is because we all grew up in a certain way. Marc Winter (16:52) I'm ⁓ Paul Fattinger (17:03) all of our generation that's the same. It's not particularly, I think, our parents as individuals fault. It's just the way it was, right? ⁓ So we're learning things usually in our, know, that mid-40s kind of midlife phase. I would love my kids to learn how to feel right now and Marc Winter (17:22) know when they're free because I kind of used them in a gateway to better the series earlier and so on. But coming from that, don't find it enough. Paul Fattinger (17:22) not when they're 40 because that kind of gives them a gateway to better decisions earlier and so on. But ⁓ coming from that, though, finally enough came other things like I like talking about these things and I hear that when I talk about these things that find there is resonance, people like to listen to those stories. And that's also why we're sitting here today, because I make this podcast because as you said, it feels meaningful and it feels authentic and it feels like what I do can have an impact on others. And I guess now we're getting closer to legacy because it's just all the lines by passion and lines. Maybe it's Ikegai if you want, right? That concept. Great concept. We should talk about that. You remember what Ikigai was exactly about? I never heard those three circles that align. Marc Winter (18:08) Yeah, mean, gosh, it's so funny. ⁓ We used it for a purpose statement, funny enough, for a Japanese mercantile company called ⁓ Mercari, but I think it's about people's, it has to do with purpose, no? Like people's reason for being, right? Paul Fattinger (18:30) Yeah, absolutely. And it also, I think, is used to find, you know, kind of what you need to do when your own, I think, passions and talents align with what the world needs. And I think something else, that's kind of what it is. And it's a beautiful concept. Marc Winter (18:47) So, okay, first of all. Paul Fattinger (18:48) It's like passion, what the world needs and what you're good at and you know in that kind of sweet spot where there's the line is your IKIGAI and that gives you a reason of being and getting up in the morning basically. Marc Winter (19:01) Let me ask you this. That's a great thing. Do you think like, who knows, I very few people, right, I think wake up in their 20s, just going back to this transformation, I feel more closely connected to being clear about the legacy I want to leave behind in a weird way than I ever was. And I don't know fully yet what it is, but it's more like, it's a lot of creative projects, I think. you know, it's the storytelling project I'm doing, this podcast series, you know, some of these television pieces that I'm writing and then film pieces that I'm writing, right? In addition also to this other thing that I'm building, you know? Paul Fattinger (19:25) And what is that? Marc Winter (19:48) And I see it all connected, right? ⁓ a, know, the big theme is ⁓ creativity through the lens of powerful stories and storytelling. That to me is it, right? And actually I realized that what I've always loved was ⁓ either helping people tell their story or telling great stories myself, you know? And. you know, think, and that can manifest in so many different ways, like where we are now and. Paul Fattinger (20:20) It's beautiful and it totally aligns with what you do and who you are. And I just had a thought and it might be deeply too deeply philosophical and into into this bottle of, you know, California cap. But maybe legacy is more a tool to sharpen, you know, who we are here and now than an extra thing and a goal. You know what I mean? Because you know that famous thing... Marc Winter (20:47) I love that. No, I think that's genius. Like, sit back and have a sip of wine. Because I think, like... Paul Fattinger (20:54) Did I have my yearly moment of genius? I missed them. I had them at work at like one bright moment, a quarter. Maybe. And then I was like, I was so happy. Marc Winter (20:57) It's... No, I love the idea of it as a tool. That's what it is. It's just a tool to help you prioritize. Paul Fattinger (21:14) Yes, because you know that these famous things, right? Also, Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, think is habit number two or one, I don't know, the first couple, he's like, you know, imagine this famous thing, imagine you are at your funeral and what is being said about you, right? I mean, there's an intervention done in so many, you know, different... you know, find your purpose and so on, exercises. And that's legacy, right? Because what people say about you, you know, at your funeral, that is, to me, the definition of legacy, that it's more a tool to find out, you know, what you want to stand for, what you can stand for, what you have the ability for, than an actual thing, because who gives a fuck? I'm dead. You know what I mean? Like, dead as an ant goal doesn't do anything. Marc Winter (22:01) You know, it's funny actually, in many ways, I had to answer all along as I was landing on the topic for this quick hit podcast because I was reflecting a little bit on after being in this job for 14 years, leading this company and I was writing down lessons. One was about, some of them are about money and meaning, like one I just shared already. Another one, I always liked a little spin on Tolstoy. You know, all happy companies are alike and all unhappy ones are unhappy in their own way. And one of the next one was old bold moves come down to legacy. Anything bold. Any move I've ever seen a leader, a business leader take, they are thinking about what are they gonna say about me in the papers and my tenure when I'm done. And I often use that as a tool, hold on, like as a tool. for business decisions, right? But it's actually very much a tool for life. And if you think about it, because I... Paul Fattinger (23:01) Bob, man, I totally disagree. love this. Awesome. Let's go. yeah, yeah, yeah. Because listen, if you think is like, what are they going to say about me? That is totally the wrong motivation to do things or not do things. Hold on, hold on. I'm going to say about the papers tomorrow or the next few weeks. It's more about when I retire and I'm off. Marc Winter (23:04) Okay. No, hold on, hold on. Not what it's gonna say about me in the papers tomorrow or the next few weeks, et cetera. It's more about when I retire, when I'm gone. Paul Fattinger (23:24) Bless you. ⁓ Marc Winter (23:29) Oops. Like, you know, it's the Time magazine, it's the Epitaph exercise. You know, it's, you know, you have, ⁓ you know, 40 years on when, you know, when you've retired, you you put your face on the magazine, what do they say? Paul Fattinger (23:43) Okay, I don't want to tell you how do you do your job and basically say now that you're doing it I don't think we mean this but but I'm almost let me challenge this isn't How about if you know, okay if you had a leader in front of difficult decisions and I you know, I was there plenty of times and And I'm not saying what I did or didn't do I don't remember but Did you say you know what if you're now in a room and no one sees what you're doing? and no one cares what you're doing in a sense, right? Out in the outside world, the newspaper, your, I don't know. And you just do what feels right. Don't you think that could almost bring out the bad decision? Marc Winter (24:27) Well, listen, I want to clarify what we're talking about. You're talking about leadership and the everyday decision making that's made. I'm talking about bold moves, real transform, like the biggest big bad rules, not like some of the stuff I know you've had to do, which is really hard versus like, you know, Paul Fattinger (24:47) And I, okay, I hear you, I hear you, I gotcha. And this is actually the funny thing, right, about humanity, that a lot of our bold moves and advancements come from ego. They come from that. Because, and they come from, and the greatest, I wouldn't say the greatest leaders, but the greatest innovators that I know, and I personally know, they strike a very thin balance between genius and motherfucking crazy or with a bit of a Napoleon complex as I like to say. Marc Winter (25:24) I mean, look at the top five innovators that we've had, at least in the US, right? I would say the past. Ivan, Ivan, Zuck, Sam Altman, ⁓ Steve Jobs. ⁓ Pick another one. All dangerously close to, you know, on the verge, mean, that's well documented. the, and I don't even know. Paul Fattinger (25:31) Yeah, Elon for sure has a few screw loose, but he's like genius. Yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (25:49) how much they, they're too crazy, many of them, I think, to even think about legacy so much. But I actually think that... Paul Fattinger (25:55) No, I think they do a lot. I don't know them. But which brings me back to, mean, it's a great tangent because it's like, isn't there a legacy a lot about ego? do you need that actually to lead a happy life? Because do you need to innovate and do something crazy and change the world to lead a happy life? Is that the right impact? you know, that's kind of what I'm trying to challenge right now because we're all trying to do that. Marc Winter (26:19) Okay, then let me ask you this as a philosophical idea. Do you believe that it's a person's duty to at least attempt to realize, understand, and fulfill their potential? Paul Fattinger (26:32) Oh man, you got me on this one because you know, right? I I hate nothing more than untapped potential. And I had this episode today where my middle son who has wanted to play on a proper football team and he's nine years old forever and we never wanted to do that because the pain is, because you go to games on the weekends, blah, blah. So now he's played. two training sessions and one match and he had a sore ass basically. he's been, you know, and he didn't want to go to training today and really pissed me off because it's you know, that's kind of, it's untapped potential. You don't use your potential. You know, there's resistance, you have to get over it. So I'm totally, that's my mindset. It's also what got me where I was. Is that healthy? I don't know, man. Yeah, I mean, that's my problem or. Marc Winter (27:24) Well, look, I mean, it's a life philosophy. That's what it is. I think we're aligned in this. life is short. You could do a lot of things with it. Look, if you gave me, if I woke up and had a hundred million, and was another podcast probably, but if you few hundred million in my bank account, would I be happy just fucking off on the beach with the boats and go, yeah, for some time. Paul Fattinger (27:46) 100 % for some and Marc Winter (27:50) And then I think I'd be thinking, what else can I be doing? Like Mark with his gifts, et cetera, how can I better execute it? I don't necessarily need to be doing the hard work of rising businesses, but I would think about where I can deploy my talents Paul Fattinger (27:50) then I think I'll be thinking what else can I do to mark the gifts that are out there that are actually coming out. I don't necessarily need to try and do the hard work of like businesses. I'm gonna think about where I can deploy my talent. Marc Winter (28:04) in a way that's meaningful to me and useful to the world. Paul Fattinger (28:08) Yes, and I think we said it before and I think that's kind of the angle you wanted to take all along is like we have lots of areas of our lives where we can apply our talents and we most frequently attach it to work. And yes, and that's why we see legacy work. But to be a great father and leave behind three kids that are super happy and then have maybe another six, whatever, and so on, that can also be a huge impact on the world generationally and not some company or building. So I guess that's where you wanted to take me. And there's other areas like this, right? There can be a great friend, you can be a great uncle, wherever you are needed. And also not everything needs... I'm against that legacy. think I'm gonna out myself now. I I call bullshit on legacy. I think actually that the world would be probably a better place if that concept, I know that doesn't work like this, didn't exist. Marc Winter (29:09) Fair, but it does. as you like to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I like to say, it does, fair enough. But I like the way you placed it. I really do. I mean, I think of it as a tool to help you focus on what matters and give you greater meaning versus, because you can reset it all the time, you know? And that's kind of where I let off with this conversation because I, you know. Paul Fattinger (29:11) That's fucking true. does. It does. Yeah, it does. I mean, not telling you off. Marc Winter (29:36) Well, let me finish my fucking point for a second and I'll tell you. My invitation for you to tell your story a little bit about how things have changed, for me was a shifting of priorities of what matters in a really thoughtful way, which I often thought was whether explicit or implicit enough was tied a bit to a legacy about how you wanna be useful to the world. Paul Fattinger (29:58) Yes, I think, yeah. Yeah, you landed it. You did, you did well. I just, to me that concept just was never, is never, is where can I have impact with who I am and ⁓ what I do and what I do best. And if that translates to legacy, so be it. But really, who cares? Marc Winter (30:00) Bingo. I landed it. Hmm. Nice. OK, well listen, this was a lovely conversation. Paul Fattinger (30:22) Nice one Intense I mean it makes me think and also makes me think we're not done with this topic, which is fine. We can do a follow-on and We didn't do any research on this guys. This was all totally life That's why we fucked up ikigai, which is sad because I read a book the other day Not too long ago. It's a beautiful concept, but you can look it up. Look it up guys is a great concept Marc Winter (30:36) But it's a good thought starter. No, no, I think... Look, I think, you know, we like to synthesize at the end of our podcast what these messages were. But actually, I don't think there's a synthesis here. It's more of a provocation. And if you're listening and you're thinking about impact and less about, you know, what are people gonna say at my funeral, but more about how can I be most useful to the world right now as an interesting provocation and how will that fill me up? Paul Fattinger (30:52) yes, please, here you go. Marc Winter (31:14) or let's put this way, is my utility and my passion and my skills and all that, are they in line, right? And really beautifully to have great impact and it's a beautiful idea. Please. Paul Fattinger (31:24) And can I add to that? I think it is exactly what you said. And just to say it in other words, actually. when they come from your inside and are truly yours. And I think to me that is important because I had the feeling that I was chasing for the largest part of my life, dreams and goals and legacies, if you want, that I picked up somewhere but were not truly mine. And when you do that, you're never gonna be happy. Marc Winter (31:31) when they come from your inside and are truly yours. And I think to me that is important because I had the feeling that I was chasing for the last part of my life dreams and goals and legacies that I picked up somewhere but were not truly mine. And when you do that, you're not going to be happy. Ladies and gentlemen, it took Paul two glasses of wine to finally give in the line I wanted to say when we kicked this off, and I'm glad you shared that. Exactly. Paul Fattinger (32:05) The next time you tell me before. But so then it is, that's what it is. It is, it is. And that's why I think I'm so, this legacy topic just kind of rubs me the wrong way because it has that external kind of filter thing, right? What do other people say about you after you're dead? no. What do you feel right now that you love to do? Marc Winter (32:06) No, it's good. This is an organic insight. Yeah. Yes. Paul Fattinger (32:28) that you want to contribute, that you want to spend your time with, and it's truly yours and not someone else's expectation or someone else's whatever you saw somewhere. And that's what it is. And if you do that, you're going to have legacy, all right, but who cares, right? Marc Winter (32:42) It's a lot like how ⁓ people who've made it really well, especially entrepreneurs, said, chasing the money, the wrong thing. Chase the passion, bring it to life, you've taken care of. It's a similar principle. That was fun. Paul Fattinger (32:56) Yeah, as simple as that. man, thank you for driving us there. Right. Do you have any terminators or idiots of the day, we've got to say today? Marc Winter (33:08) Jesus, well, I think my wife, Vera, terminated some chicken today. That was amazing. That was really good. Yeah, yeah. By the way, Paul Fattinger (33:14) ⁓ was amazing. I always suck at doing chicken at home and I'm inspired now again. Marc Winter (33:19) You know what, guys, it's inspired, it's good job. It's the Zuni Cafe in San Francisco. They do this legendary chicken where you dry it in the fridge, you stuff it with herbs, and then you roast it. It was a great testament to it. If you're ever in San Francisco, I think it's still up on Market Street. It's a great bird to have and indulgent. What about you? Paul Fattinger (33:44) I think my turn of the week is the day was that you know when we rode the bikes to your office ⁓ through you know basically what is it was it so basically and and then and then and the West Village there was this guy on his bike right his e-bike and with his kid on the back seat which is not e-bike is actually it's a fucking mopey moped which is not allowed in Europe but you have to you know it's seen in Marc Winter (33:48) We upload the bikes to your office through, you know, from the social media. It shows this guy on his bike, With his T-bike and with his kid on the bikes. The T-bike is actually a fucking e-mobile, which is not allowed in Europe, but you have to use it. can see it in the US, and the T-bike is a bike that's heavy, so you don't have to use it. Paul Fattinger (34:10) in the US and e-bike is a bike that has pedals but you don't have to use the pedals actually it's just there for a joke yeah well in Austria and Europe it doesn't work like this you actually have to pedal so I thought I was a pretty cool dude with a little kid there with a helmet going around and in general I like all the biking in New York is Terminator style man I've said this before it's awesome it's awesome the infrastructure is awesome the back path are actually better and better I don't know why you go on the sidewalk all the time Marc Winter (34:14) It's awesome. Yeah. cause you know, I need extra adrenaline. I'm a junkie. exactly. It's like, you want to get nuts? Let's get fucking nuts. Paul Fattinger (34:39) never done this in my life. I've also been... No. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's totally useless. But no, no, no, exactly, exactly. It's like really, really... And I am not shy when it comes to, you know... You turned off, So that is my terminator. So biking in New York City is my terminator. Marc Winter (34:56) I just wanted to show the Austrian I got balls. Sorry, this one, what I said repeated. Okay, well, the idiot, my idiot's probably the same as your idiot, which is that guy in the, ⁓ that Lambo, ⁓ like detailed SUV, what's called again? It was Uros, my, first of all, I've got six of those in my building, don't ask why, and this one was like lime green, it was like about to turn into a transformer, you know, just like a kid's car, basically, right? was, those things cost $250,000. Paul Fattinger (35:11) You ⁓ Uros, Lamborghini Urus. This one was like, lime green, was like a, to turn into a transformer. You know, just like a case copy, right? was, well, doesn't cost anything, it just does. Yeah, and then you put a mirroring foil on it, it's insane. But on the other hand, it's almost like, if you can do that. Marc Winter (35:34) We talk, yeah. It's an. Paul Fattinger (35:45) You really don't give a shit. Or you do and you're really off. Anyways, I don't... My idiot... The thing that really annoyed me today, and it's hard to give if it's a physical... What would you say? Yeah, a concept that exists in physics like echo and the idiot of the week. But I hate echo because... Because we spend... I spend a lot of time today figuring out how to avoid... Marc Winter (35:46) Yeah. Maybe use the Terminator. Paul Fattinger (36:14) uh... might lead and cross talk is very hard if you have a apartment crime whose voice is so beautiful that it it it transcends uh... you know all uh... you know every wave length whatever and cross into my mic but that's my idea of the week it really pisses me off and it gives me a lot of them appreciation for the people who actually have figured out how that works Marc Winter (36:39) Well on that note, thank you Paul. Paul Fattinger (36:42) Thank you, Mark. Same here. See ya, bye. Marc Winter (36:44) ⁓ And look forward to see you next time on guys like us