guyslikeus EP10: business networking: an art or a must?

Paul: I got it again. Good. Welcome to guys like Us, the podcast where Mark and I really wanna make an impact and maybe leave some legacy ah, [00:01:00] ah, that is better than mine yesterday as we discussed the other day. Ah, Marc: yeah. Paul: Hey Mark, how are you doing? I'm doing great man. How are you? I'm great. We are sitting here on, uh, in a podcast, community podcast studio. 180 Orchard Street, right? Yeah. In the Lower East Side. That what a cool place to be. Yeah. That your wife verified for us because we were so useless with our mics that she gave up and it's like, guys, you need to, you need to find this. And we are here to record our first. Episode on business topics. Marc: Mm. Paul: And we chose the fun, uh, topic of networking. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: So, let's see. Let's see. First of all, if we can record properly here, but we think we, we do, we, we did a bit of a trial run, so it's gotta be about networking. But how was your morning? I mean, just to check in quickly with you. Marc: It was great. It was for the first morning since you've been here, I woke up perfectly fine. I felt great. My vitals were high. Mine too, like I was green. I Paul: was 81. Ugh. I was 84. Yeah. [00:02:00] But you know, I think it's also, and we're gonna do an episode on that. It's also when you, um, when you abuse your body for a while, basically the baseline drops. So then when you, you know, abuse it a little bit less. It thinks you are like on high performance, but if you had, you know, if you had not drank for two weeks and drank like we did yesterday, we would be in the red. You know what I mean? It's all relative, you know what Marc: I mean? Thank you as always for just, you know, bursting my bubble. I thought I was like, oh, I can get, you can never get away with it, can you? You know? Mm-hmm. That's just it. It Paul: is. I Marc: know. It was, it's, it was fun. Paul: You know what I did this morning? Marc: What? Paul: Tell me. Uh, I went for a run in Central Park. Marc: Mm. Paul: And it was amazing. Mm. It's the third time now that I've done it, um, and last three times every time I managed and it's unbelievable. So beautiful. Best park in the world, I think. Um, just epic. Marc: Such a New York thing to say, but, well, I mean, it's not bad. I mean, you know, [00:03:00] you know what it is. It's just because these, the city is so intense. It's the one release valve, you know? But Paul: it was busy, man. I mean, listen, there were so many people running. It was quite fun actually, you know, summer and, yeah, and I was so slow that, you know, everyone was passing me. So you get. You get to see a lot of people. Marc: That's, that's for sure. All, all, Paul: all the, the, Marc: a Feast of delights. Paul: No, it was really, really nice. It was really, and the views are insane. And weather like this today, like at kind of an Indian summer type of day, beautiful blue skies, the skyline, I mean, hard Marc: to beat. You know, it's funny, I, I try to, to get a little bit of a workout in, but you know, it's always so hard if you, I don't know about you, but if you don't start right away. Um, your, your workout. I just, I just find you're just fucked. Like if, if you, if I don't get up and just go, then you know, the phone calls come, the messages come, I get distracted, et cetera. I, I want to sneak down and, and it just doesn't work, you know? Then you feel responsible and so, you know, [00:04:00] I, uh, I'm living through you. Let's put it that way. I know, but I lemme just do something. Okay. Thank you. Even better. Paul: Sorry guys. I mean, mark is a little bit like a bit of a baby that, uh, sometimes you have to too shit for Mark's been really pissed with me. I mean, he's, he doesn't tell me he's too good of a friend, but I would love to Marc: throw this bottle at his head, actually. Is this recording? Paul: Because first of all, before we came here, wanted to show me some dive bar and had a, have a, you know. Whatever. I didn't want to do this because I wanted to be very Austrian and be here on time. Marc: That's first of all, I mean, you're, you're half telling the story. I mean, the first part you're like, absolutely, let's do it, and then let's do a shot. And then you talked about how you have big plans to fly a kite and keep that. Kite flying into dinner and beyond. Right. And so I was, well, I wasn't sure I was, and then you were writing an Paul: email for 10 minutes and then we got paid. And then Marc: it's priorities, man. [00:05:00] Priorities. Okay. Alright. Yeah, actually it is priorities. Thank you for distilling your priorities for us because yours is being on time and mine's fun, you know? And so, yeah. Good. Paul: Good. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Alright. Can we start? Yeah, we can start. We're getting like an older couple bickering around, like, this guys might be the end of, uh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Of guys like us. It's, Marc: it's, it's only four days together Exactly. In person. That's Paul: exactly, exactly. We, we should do the next, we should do the next one on couple therapy. Oh my God. Yeah. I, I have experience with that too. Yeah, I heard you. Yeah, exactly. You can super fun. Marc: Well, you Paul: know, Marc: yeah. The Jungian and, uh. Oh, we can Paul: do this. Uh, yeah, but there's a few things that could be interesting. You know, you have to listen to each other until one finished. I think you a graduate Marc: school on that, you know, and Paul: reflecting upon, you know, everything you read. Okay, screw this networking. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: How do we get to this topic? How do we get to stopping? Marc: Probably, probably we're distilling what are the [00:06:00] things that most annoy us in our, in, in leadership, in our jobs and, and, or, or most annoyed us initially maybe. I imagine networking must have been top of the list. Paul: I think networking Marc: is a huge word, right? It's the forced social interaction. Correct. Go ahead. No, no, no, no, no. Paul: Go ahead. What? What's on your mind? I was Marc: just like, why is it a topic in the first place? I think because it makes people uncomfortable, right? A lot of people are just uncomfortable with it because it's really like it. It feels like inauthentic human interaction. Where I am supposed to meet a bunch of people, find some shared interests, hopefully, and then, you know, maybe we can do some business together down the line or something. You know, it's just a very challenging, I, I think, especially for. For, for, for introverts, especially, even for extroverts, you know, it's, it feels very, like, it could be very forced, right. As an interaction. Paul: Yeah. That, that's, [00:07:00] you know, I fully agree and we should go into this, but maybe before we do a network, right? I mean, why, what is a network for you in, you know, in a business context? And I remember you telling me the other day that um, you know, you really felt your network was. Becoming alive, you know, for, for a certain project or, or topic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so, so what, what if you say, you know, I mean, let's, would you consider yourself having a good network? Yes. Okay. And what does that mean? I Marc: see it as a collective of interestings and successful. It doesn't necessarily have to be both, Paul: you know? Yeah. Fair enough. Marc: Yeah. Um. Or, uh, individuals who, um, are having impacts some type of impact in the world and should, um, [00:08:00] I ask be beneficial to me in some way. Right. I mean, I think like the purpose of having a business network, right, as a collective of like, actually I should say it this way. I wish I had had prepared to write down a definition, but just on the fly. I think it's a, a collective of like-minded. Individuals with shared values, hopefully shared interests, you know, um, who can be beneficial to one another. Paul: Yeah. And isn't network and nepotism or network and how do you call this when you, when you. I don't know, when you don't deal at arm's length, but you give, you know, things to friends or people you know that you probably should, I mean, nepotism is, Marc: is is the extreme version of that. Yeah. Obviously that's your children, et cetera. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And Paul: I'm, I'm looking for the, the correct, like insider trading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, or, or, or, you know, favors, favoritism. Favoritism. Yep. So where's the line? Marc: Well, I mean, I think it. [00:09:00] It's not about, I think you're choosing an isolated example here, right? You know, I, you know, I'm doing a deal. I want to give it to my friend's company or, you know, I think my friend's company is gonna cut me a deal. I don't think I, I don't think, uh, a network is, is intended by that actually. I get a lot of joy personally, and it took a, a while of, of bringing together, I think, interesting people, um, with some shared interest who would benefit from knowing one another. And I think, you know, when you. Transcend a moment in your career where I think you have a little bit of the confidence that you have knowledge and you have wisdom, you have things to offer, you know, uh, others and, and you're curious, et cetera. Um, uh, I, I think that's a, an excellent entry point, um, to start making connections. Right? Paul: Absolutely. I was just thinking. What it meant to me. And, um, that's where I was Marc: gonna go. Paul: And it's [00:10:00] obviously similar and I, I, I wanted to be a bit less philosophical about it. Um. It is a group of people, you know, however big you know, and I think I, I like the shared values and I think trust is very important. A hundred percent. Um, and, and, and trust in, in the capabilities of the other person, right? Mm-hmm. Because when you out there and you are, you know, looking for services or looking for people that you work with, right, because you are on a project or you're trying to, I don't know, buy a company, sell a company, I don't know, implement an ERP, do something where you need. Somebody else other than you and your immediate people. And that can also relate within a very large company, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, I think you work for a huge tech company, right? Yeah. And that's the same that you need to get something done. You need to know people, you need other people to do something. And there might be many out there that are available, uh, to you, but the cost of actually A, finding them and B, evaluating whether they're actually good and you can trust them, [00:11:00] and whether you, you know, are able to work together well. Is very high. I, it takes a lot of time. So when, you know, for example, in my cases, sometimes, you know, a good lawyer. Marc: Hmm. Paul: You go to him or her, and he is like, that's what you do. You work with him or her, period. Right? Because you've worked before. And that's, to me, is a network. Or you can sometimes also just call someone up and ask, right? Mm-hmm. And get some information or get an answer very quick. Not be charged for it. And that's a, that's a huge value in that. I find so it, it's that, that trust that you have to build over time to have a good working relationship. And you and I, I mean you worked in the service industry and, and the best projects I always felt are when there is a lot of trust. A hundred percent of course, you know, between you and your client. Yeah. Because they're not asking all the time, what are you doing? And, and asking you to record every minute and every. Task and all of this, it's extremely highly inefficient, all of this, right? Because you get in a defensive position from both ends. If you have trust, all these things work much more [00:12:00] smoothly. Mm. So to me, network is all about trust. Marc: Fair. Okay. But you know, I think that's your evolved understanding of networking. Well, let's go back to of network at network Fair, but let's go. This was, networking was the topic. And so, you know, I think we have an established base on what network is, but. The journey of building your own network, I think is really cha It was really challenging for me at, you know, at first, I, I was, I found it brutal, you know, um, partly because. I would go to these network events, there would be, you know, a hundred, 150 people. People you didn't really know. You know, my, my first instinct candidly was to go to the bar, right. To have a few beers just to relax, you know, and then you were just exactly the same, you know, you stole my story, but I'm 100% right. People are, are, are coming by with the cannae and the appetizers. So eat some of those, right? Then you strike up a conversation with someone else. You're, you're watching other groups kind of form and. Figure, do I step [00:13:00] into this one? Do I go to this one? You know, who looks a little bit interesting, et cetera. And it just felt, felt like always a really painful type of experience. Have Paul: you ever met anyone on one of those events? That you didn't know before or hadn't known before. There was really like a pure networking effort win. Right? So you went to conference or whatever event you ran into that person got the business card, you know, and then that connection helped you in any way Marc: a handful of times. Paul: Yeah. Marc: Therefore, a much waiter in life. Much waiter. Yeah. But, Paul: but really connections that were kind of cold acquiring. Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Like cold, like, ah, like. You know, you, you join the one group, oh, you should meet this person. Then, you know, you meet that person and they start talking, oh, okay, I'm working on this thing. And then suddenly an uh, uh, an opportunity might spin up. Uh, it's happened. [00:14:00] It happens rarely, you Paul: know? And I think because Okay, networking, when I hear it, I still cringe and I get, I get, I get, you know, I know my stomach starts going funny, right? So I'm happy I didn't have that shot. Um, because I also remember in business school we talked about this networking. And even then we had those networking sessions and some Kill me Exactly. Some stupid companies coming in and you had to. Network with their recruiters for some, okay. That jobs that we didn't want to, Marc: that's the lowest of the low of networking, Paul: right? I mean, it was just like, it was like, of course it was. Yeah. But we felt that we had to do it. In order, you know, to be, or it was kind of implied. We never really did not because we were so cool, because also we kind saw the, I think, futility of all of this. Mm-hmm. But, but that's when it started. And then, and then I think to me, when I started, um, really selling or having to sell projects, you know, and, and having to go out there, consult, there were lots of networking events and you cannot get into the scene and you feel like you [00:15:00] have to go there. And while. I think, you know, a lot of people perceive me as very outgoing, which I can be in these very moments. I was the same. I needed uh, two glasses of wine. Marc: Yeah. Paul: And then though, usually to me, and that's I think something I've settled into right now and I'm very happy about. I never met lots of people on those events. Mm. I kind of always found I either did or didn't, and if I didn't, I left. Also, that took me a while to leave and say, you know what? I went there, I wasn't successful, but I was also happy to pull the plug and go home and call it a loss or you know, not call it a win at least. Or I found someone that I really liked or that I knew already and that I hadn't met in a long time. And we hung out, had a few glasses of wine or whatever, or water talked, had finally went home. Right, period. Okay, Marc: so lemme build on a little bit what you're saying. Um, I find. You and I, I've had to train [00:16:00] myself out of this. 'cause there usually my networking experiences went two ways, right? One is that I would find someone I already knew inside one of these events, and all I would do is talk with them and drink with them. And everyone else, you know, would come up to me. You would make small talk, but I just really wanna talk to this person. Hmm. And I was like, okay, that was a cool hangout with, you know, free beer and wine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then when I started to push a little bit deeper when I really was kind of alone, you know, then I would make small talk to one or two. And if you connected well enough with them. I was like, great job done. I've already made, like, you know. Exactly. Yeah. I'm done. Checked. Yeah, exactly. I already made that social hurdle. Right. How many of you like, this isn't, this isn't a Olympic sport, you know, of from now on, it's up upward, right? Yeah. 'cause you've done your Paul: minimum. Marc: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, and sometimes that could be on fire and you, you know, you collect them, you get a bunch of people going, blah, blah, blah. But you know, um. You know, and then in the end, nothing ever really came out of that because either I was having a little too much fun afterwards and I was just like, forgot it was nice, or they weren't really useful anyway, they were actually, which was [00:17:00] fun. Yeah. Then there's also the third, which is always the worst, which is, you know what I'll call like, um, the stage five Clinger. That is you meet someone who's not interest. They think you are interesting. And then you go around and you try to go to the different circles, et cetera, and then suddenly, you know, this person is still there. You're like, you're still there. Like, what's going on? You know, they don't leave. And uh, that's always been really hard, you know, later in life, you know, I was able to say, you know, nice to meet you. Um, I'm gonna explore a little bit, you know, around and, you know, and fuck off basically. Paul: Exactly. You know, I went to a conference. Uh, the other week and that's what, how this topic also came about. Right. And uh, it was just for a day. Mm. And it's a beautiful thing. It's a bit little bit like the Austrian devil. It's just much smaller, but what's it called? Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. European form. It's beautiful. It's in a beautiful scenery and it's fun. And I went there just for the day and I had no expectations. I signed up to two sessions [00:18:00] and I was there because I was joining a friend session in the afternoon. First session A was interesting, and B, I met someone who, she talked to me and said, you know, we went to school together. I didn't remember in the first place, but then I did, and the next conversation would've never met her otherwise. And then, you know, not, not because I don't care, or she did, but we would've never, you know, unless we, you run into there, and then I ran into three, four other people I, I know. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: But I hadn't seen it in a while. Mm-hmm. And I wouldn't have seen otherwise. And that's already kind of to me, set it, you know, check the box of saying. That was worthwhile. Yeah. You know, because I met, uh, four or five people that otherwise I wouldn't have talked to. Mm-hmm. And who knows what it, and, and it was fun. It was nice to reconnect and so on. I think that the problem with networking is the expectation you attach to it. Marc: Yeah. Paul: Right. The expectation that you, you know, like picture this, you are, you know, a young partner or, or whatever director in your, in your consulting company, you're trying to sell something [00:19:00] and you're like, you're looking at your billables and they suck, and you're like, you try, you know, no, I need to go out and you need to sell projects. Yeah. You do, but you should have done this six or 12 months ago. Yeah. Because that's how long the sales cycle is gonna be. And maybe on someone you've never met before, you met at a conference, the sales cycle is like two to three years. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. If, if that even works. So, so these things, and that's the kind of problem you have. This, I felt this, this, um, urge to do something right. To get out and do something and, uh. But that's never gonna happen. No. So you're gonna be depressed after those events. And I was, many times. Yeah. I mean, totally resonates. I, I think, Marc: you know, these days, and maybe, I mean, I walk in with a lot more confidence and I think the difference is that, um, I believe I've something to offer in conversations. Back then, I was more in the listener, you know, I was the hungry. Person and, you know, you're trying to network, but you're not really sure [00:20:00] what I could give people outside just listen and make some funny banter, you know, and, and, and try to, you know, get, be useful of some kind. Right. And now I feel like when I walk in, it's, it's more, I'm much more targeted and efficient with my time. And I shed, I've decided to shed a lot of the inhibitions that have always, you know, kind of held me back a little bit or what were Paul: they? Marc: I think I hate the, I mean, these are all scenarios that will ring familiar probably to our listeners, which is basically, you know, there's the, there's the, the circle of people that seem to be having, like, having a good time. You know, do I interrupt and introduce myself and shake their hand or do I let them have a good time, you know, or wait by the side for some thread of a conversation that I can just leap into, you know, it's like, did someone say, you know, uh. Um, this, you know, an insight from this book. I love that book and you kind of dig in that way. Um. That's, [00:21:00] that's one inhibition, you know, you know, which just is social, right? It's just a social kind of where do you interrupt and break through these kinds of gatherings, you know, especially when people feel like they're so intent in conversation. Um, the others are. If there's a big, if there's a keynote speaker, for example, you know of some kind. Mm-hmm. I used to hate going up to them. Then introducing myself. You know how everyone waits in line for that, you know? Oh God, I hate that. My, yeah. And you had to say, and you had to say like a few smart things. Oh, I really like what you had to say. By the way, you know, I work for this company. If you ever want this, call me. Oh, Paul: no. Yeah. To me, I have to say, sometimes I also, you know, it's like, it was, did I have my, um, kind of elevator speech together, right? Yeah. And was I also confident enough to say, you know, because in the end that I always felt like when I was a consultant, you, you, I felt, uh, and then, then that's what you carry. Yeah. That you are always kind of the, the, the person asking for something. Right. And not being able to offer, [00:22:00] you kind of dare to to do business. Yeah. Right. And that's not a great, that's not a great start. No. Also, that mindset is not a great start, right? No. If you, if you just go out there and you're like, I am here because I'm Paul, I'm an, I'm an awesome human being. That's right. And we can talk about whatever and. You know, that's a, I wish I, I had known that. Right. And not to, that's why I'm saying take that end game out. Right. Or the equation. That expectation. The outcome, yeah. And the outcome out. Right. Yeah. And just be, is to connect with people. Because at the end of the day, and that's what I, I learned early, but it took me a while to kind of really bank on it is Mm. You're only gonna have a network with people that you like and that like you. Totally, totally. That's the rest is not to me. That's why I was, you know, about the definition of network before, because I think a, a purely utilitarian network is not a very, um, is not a very stable or reliable one. [00:23:00] No. Right. Because I mean, this whole trust and stuff like this, I, I, I need to want to work with you. Because I like you. I mean, that's why I'm working with you because I like working with you. 'cause you're a nice human being and you need to connect on that level. I find. Marc: I agree and I think it, I mean we should probably do something like maintaining and, and growing a network I think is really helpful, which is to me much more around. Generosity and all the things that you talked about. You know, I, I think, and really dedicating spending time with, with those, I, Paul: yeah. I wish you absolutely get to this. That's why I think it's network networking, whatever, whatever. Let's not get hung up in definitions, but so, so one of my big learnings was less is more. And it took the pressure away from it. And I, I've actually always been someone that had, you know, fewer friends, but very good friends, deeper connections. And also when I went to an event, I talked to five, not 50. Mm-hmm. But those five, I think I left an impression the other way around. Uh, and if we met again, we were like [00:24:00] old friends meeting again. And, and over time, that also compounds. And I wouldn't say I know everyone now, but I know a lot. I mean, and the other thing is network is a compounding. Thing. Totally. And unfortunately it takes time. I think there are some, some people who superpower it is to network and, and, and actually not only to collect business cards, but to actually build a network. Yeah. That's, that's work. And they can do that at a much earlier age. For the rest of the time. It's, you know, in what kind of industry are you, how, how exposed are you and how do you also interact with people? Because every positive interaction is, is multiplying in a network because people don't talk to you about, it's like a small snowball effect and it takes time. And I feel we are probably at the peak or close to the peak of our network. Plus also our network gets worth more because in, in a sense, because the people that, you know, we all getting into positions now that, you know, that part of our career where you peak. Right. You know, Marc: frankly to grow, to get more successful. Yeah. Paul: Yeah. Marc: Agree. Well, you know, I think there's, [00:25:00] um, there's. Something you also said that, that, that I wanna call out, which is I, this idea of it's less is, less is more, but also authenticity and being really clearer about your intention, you know? Yes. And, and if you are just there to meet interesting people and tell yourself that then versus, you know. Land a phone number to, you know, to follow up on or, you know, that kind of thing. Um, obviously professionally, uh, it changes the game and how you pro you know, it's how you frame the problem, you know, is exactly the door you'll walk into, right? Or the opportunity. And so, you know, the, just simplifying it and removing the pressure is always really helpful. I also think like, um, you know, your, your point about. Five, you know, um, I mean, five people in a broader kind of big conferences is actually kind of interesting. And, and actually I should probably try that sometimes because these bar [00:26:00] large industry conferences, I'm usually just collecting, you know, I'm fleeting, kind of, uh, across a room and making, passing connections versus really going deep. Paul: But I, I, I think it also depends a little bit on. Again, you know, what is the outcome? What is your role there? Yeah, yeah, that's true. Because you are working for a company that is already, you know, has a, a big name and where you can follow up and where something can happen. And it's, it's really just also, it is about being present there and, and having a presence. Yep. And, and, and showing up. Right. Showing, and that's, and that's okay. Right. But it's not necessarily, I would almost say that's not networking per se. That's more. Business development conference. Marc: Yeah, that's, that's totally true Paul: to me, that's, that's two different things because these are the people that you are gonna meet. There are not gonna people that you're gonna call up, you know, maybe because, you know, relationship builds on that, but that's selling to me, that's sales. Marc: A hundred percent. It's a good, it's a, that's a, that's a, you're spot on. It's great to call that [00:27:00] out. Well, let me, let me, let me actually share with you a moment where I kind of break down. Especially like a potential, you know, sell to like an actual meaningful network, you know, or connection, you know, very often, like a, um, if I'm really curious about someone, and even though we might be talking about work or whatever, I might send them a note to follow up with. Like, Hey, like that you sounds like you have like an interesting life. Hmm. Or, or that perspective on leadership, you know, you just said was really striking. How did you arrive at that kind of perspective? You know, let's get some time, let's grab a coffee, let's grab a whatever. I'm just curious if you're open. Let's do that. And I think, you know, I'm actually genuinely curious, you know, I mean, I love human beings. I mean, that's one thing that's a theme, you know, like, uh, and um, through that way I think people are also, I mean, it sounds like it's a tactic. It's not meant to. I think people are flattered to be recognized that people are listening. That you're, that someone's listening to you, that there's an insight that you had that that seems, that they're curious about. [00:28:00] And, um, they'll give you their time. And through that, I think it's a nice way of. Building, I think more authentic and meaningful connections that you can grow a network around. Paul: Yeah. If I wanna draw a conclusion from my end to, to what we just said, right. It was about almost like how do you build that network? Yeah. Right. And I find that especially early on in our careers, there's way too much emphasis put on that networking. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: And that that actually, that it's almost a transactional thing where that happens when you go to an event, uh, and so on, right? But I, I, in hindsight, I don't, I don't remember, maybe not a single is wrong, but if even a handful of connections that I, I released somehow coldly met on a conference or, or on something that was labeled as networking, Marc: Hmm. Paul: 99% of my network today happened through. You know, my work business terms, colleagues, [00:29:00] former colleagues, clients, uh, collaborators, um, competitors, people that were on the other side, you know, sometimes in, in, in, in even a dispute or something. Um, but respected the way, you know, we work together and that you meet again because the world is small and blah, blah, blah. That's my network today. It's really not the people I went and found while networking. Marc: Um, that resonates. Uh, I think, um, and the more, I mean, if I look at my professional network, if I've had to draw out a theme, you know, from them, and I think it's artificially large because I ran business development for this firm for so long, so it's just called that. Yeah, that's what it is. But I mean, I still. I think there's a theme around a philosophy, how business is and should be, and that it can be better, like among all those around my network or they're always curious about it, whether they're stuck in the role or executing it on it or not. And so they sh there, there's a shared idea, um, that kind of like [00:30:00] bonds us and links us together, which I think is really cool. Paul: Mm-hmm. Thank you. I really liked that and I was just thinking, and there's also a bridge maybe to maintaining the network, the best networker. I know we both know him as a friend of mine. Um, he. He's great at maintaining network, but he was also great at, at, at building networks. Mm. And it was not through going to parties and stuff because you knew, you meet so many people in the course of your career, think of all the colleagues that you are never in touch with again. Right. And he was someone who generally, I think also loves interacting with people that he lacks and, and connects to and just really also made that effort. And it's not. I think we have way more networking opportunity around us. It's almost comical that we jump to events where we meet, you know, very strange people that we've never met and before we actually harvest the potential of a network that we have around us. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: Through I agree. Friends, colleagues, and so on. [00:31:00] Yeah. Yeah. And. Where you already have a connection. It's like in business development where you always say, uh, uh, even a lukewarm lead is better than a cold is like they're not hundred times better than a cold lead. A cold lead is hardcore. Yeah. It's really difficult. Same with networking. I mean, if there's already a connection through whatever, go for that and that person is interesting and then it'll grow. So lemme ask you this, uh, we're, we're, I Marc: totally agree with you. Do you like people in general? Oh God, people Paul: always ask me. I'm not sure. You know, someone told me once, I'm selectively extrovert, so I'm extrovert when I need something. And that might be true. I do a lot of people always talk like people at times, but there's times where I'm, you know, that's why I sometimes very happy to sit in the mountains and be left alone. Yeah. Marc: That's funny. I mean, I think, um. The, uh, I'm, I'm obviously, well, I think you know it. Um, I, I love human beings. I mean, I'm always [00:32:00] fascinated by them, curious by them. I mean, obviously some of, sometimes they annoy the hell outta me, but, you know, from in general I'm just, I just, um, I get a lot of energy from being around people that said, you know, I have a lot of empathy. Like, I mean, some of my best, uh, many of my closest friends, they're terrified of you, of people. Like, there's, like, there's nothing that scares them more than. Walking into a room of people they don't know they like, it's just the worst. And yeah. And so, you know, for them I have the greatest empathy in terms and they, you know, for those especially, have to build professional careers. I mean, that's like the hardest thing, you know? Um, and for those who are, you know. And I think for those who might have been naturally inclined, I think then the trick is to make it meaningful, right? So, Paul: yeah. But you know what just said triggered something in me because I actually do like people, I, I think I'm sometimes scared of people. I'm scared of the feedback I get, and it's something about, you know, getting affirmation or not affirmation or other people think. So [00:33:00] when I managed to leave that aside, um, I, and. That doesn't happen very often still, I mean, now way more aware of it. Beautiful connections happen, right? And beautiful moments happen, right? So I do actually like people, I'm just, I think you said it right. I think people, I don't know if anybody really doesn't like people. I think people don't like what people could do to them or the things they think that they could do to them, you know? True, true. At least that's, that's, that's the truth for me. So thinking about. Maintaining a network naturally. And again, I'm referring to my very good friend who's never gonna listen to this, but uh, maybe I'm gonna make him call him up. This guy's amazing because he manages to go for coffee with everyone knows when everyone we work together at BCG, he knows when everyone who's you know, left is back in town, blah, blah, blah. And he loves doing it. I mean, it feels so natural. Um, and I'm not that person. I'm not that person at all to me. Um. I'm [00:34:00] happy to tag along because there's lots of people we know together and, and he's always like, Hey, this guy's coming to town. Do you wanna meet us? Ah, fantastic. But I would never even have also the bandwidth to handle all of this. I mean, it's insane. It's, it's, it's, that's why I'm saying if someone's doing it like that, that's a super superpower. Downright unreal. Marc: Yeah. I, I may not be as good as your friend, but I mean, it's definitely a power of mine and I will confirm, like it fills me up. I love, uh, being in a city or a town filling up my calendar, or when someone's in town organizing something for them. I think like it's, Paul: yeah, I can see. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah. Again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again and again. Marc: But, but I, I will say like for whatever phase of career I am now, what I find really interesting is how much time I can, most of the time I'm on my phone. Just WhatsApping connecting one person to another, like then actually going somewhere like manifesting something, going to the next thing, like the [00:35:00] mental nodes that like are firing in my brain about who to connect with, who to talk to, what kind of insight is really interesting to bring to someone else and vice versa, et cetera. And therefore maintaining this kind of, um. Professional network right now is, it's mind blowing. We, and that's actually something that AI unfortunately can't really help me with because it's not that empathetic. But, um, it's, it's, uh, it's a huge part of my brain power. It's unexpected actually, because it kind of, it drains me. When I was on paternity leave, I had three months of time, right? Mm-hmm. And I was building special projects, you know, uh, and doing a lot of outreach, et cetera. And, you know. Sometimes I wouldn't leave my computer for four hours. I was just on the phone or on my computer, and Vera was doing. How are Paul: you keeping track of all of this? You must have a CRM bill in your brain, or what's I Marc: do. I, I do have a weird mental CRM. There's a bit of that. You know, I, I [00:36:00] have a, I have a super big knack for remembering conversations and insights. Like I, I think it's just. If I spend time with you and I thought you're, you were really interesting. So I mean, I, I will, I will follow up. And it's funny, like, you know, even in my own. You know, professional career. Like, uh, a few months ago, someone reached out to me, he's like, mark, we had this conversation like eight years ago. You know, like way back when. Yeah. And you've sent me some stuff and, you know, since then, et cetera. But like, yeah, you know, uh, maybe it's time to do something, you know, and I'm like, God, man, that was, Paul: that's eight years ago. But I think that's what you said before I cut you off there. Right. And, and, and you know, Thomas is very similar to you in that, that you. You do things in your network, you just like connecting the dots. Yeah. Right. And, and by doing this, you're doing things for very, you know, without an end or without an end in mind. Like for that very, you know, you don't think of the outcome, right. You're like, [00:37:00] I think this is interesting for this person. They should notice, they should talk to each other and then whatever. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's bringing you joy. It's something, um. I have to be honest, for me, not, not so much. It brings me joy to connect the dots when it is a, a problem or a project that I work on, for example, right when I was trying to acquire this company or when I'm thinking about a new project or company and I think about this and I want to know something about this, or I want to develop it somewhere, that's when my neuro start firing. It's like, oh, I could talk to this person and that person. They could work together and I could hire her and him and blah, blah, blah. That's that. But I don't, to me, they don't fire just for. For the network itself. Funnily enough, I think that's Marc: the, I, I, I don't have that gene, I guess. Can I tell you what's the most irritating thing? No. Oh my God. So very often I'll make a connection from like one person to another and they don't follow up on it. Paul: And. I've done, I've been guilty of that too. Marc: Yeah. I mean like, and [00:38:00] I'm, I hate it Paul: if I do it myself, but I also, Marc: I, I don't want to out like how high, how high, high profile some of these like people are bringing together. Right. And you know, it's somewhere in the newspapers, et cetera. And I'm like, so you didn't take that invitation? You know, like a few months later I would follow up and they're like, no, no. Oh yeah, that's, I have follow. But that was like Paul: really crazy. Yeah. No, that, that, that's what I understood. Marc: That then I just tell myself, okay, we're just wired differently. But Paul: you know, the, interestingly you said that the reason I asked for CRM is because I, many times in my life I tried to actually build that for me, because then I know what this is. So I'm, I'm kind of, I guess despite what I was saying, I'm not out of this trap of, out of, I know now also for what I want to do, like find a company that I invest in that we buy. You need outreach. Yeah. And you need to organize that somehow. Yeah. And um, and I've been trying for a month to write down who I should talk to. Uh, [00:39:00] it kind of developed organically to be honest. Now I still would like to do it because I think it helps you, but what really helped me, and it might also be something for the listeners, first of all, I started meeting people that I thought would be helpful. Um, it sucked the joy out of my life. So I stopped doing that. I then started to meet people that I would really like to meet, and it gave me joy. Marc: Mm. Paul: And um, that's a nice, I started for myself that there are so many. People out there that play a numbers game in a sense that are like, let's meet two and a half thousand people a year, or, I'm just seeing a number now. Right. And something's gonna stick and that's a valid approach. Mm. And I was like, a, I, I can't do this. I don't know. I, I can't do this anymore. Maybe I'm too old. Maybe I'm too lazy. Maybe I, it is not me. I'm gonna just meet people that I'd like to meet and that, that I feel and they'd like to meet me. And that, that when I look at my calendar, I'm like, oh, [00:40:00] nice. And not, oh fuck. And, and I think out of this, it's much smaller than, we're not talking two and a half thousand, we're probably talking a hundred. Right? Yeah, that's fair in, in relation. But I think it's gonna be more, uh, productive for me because I think those people are gonna care, hopefully, and they're gonna tell their story to others. And the network effect of this, you know, to stretch toward is gonna be much bigger and it's authentic. And the same thing was true for my, you know, LinkedIn outreach that kind of activated a lot of the network that I didn't think of. That I, because I didn't sit down and make a long list. Right. It, it just, you know, it, it kinda reached, you know, whoever it reached and, and wherever I wrote, you know, sparked something in someone and then they wrote to me and then we meet and, you know, that also worked for me. It's kind of almost an, an passive active, I don't know how you call it, outreach, but it really, it really worked for me other than the numbers game, you know, that's, Marc: that's helpful and, and true, I think to you. Um, if I could [00:41:00] also offer like a bit of advice to some listeners. I think getting queer on your story is really helpful to think through, kind of building a network. A, it'll give you intention, you know, behind, uh, who you wanna network with and why. But also I think as for those who find it really hard, you know, just, you know, understanding a little how to introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, you know, from, in a way that feels true to you, and also. I think compelling for others and, you know, the compelling for others part might by be the we, but I think that, you know, everyone has some angle in, but, um, that to me feels, uh, a really helpful tip. Paul: Absolutely. And I was just thinking maybe it's really rich of the two of us to talk about this because I think at the end of the day we are, I guess not bad at this. No. And so on. And I think there're, [00:42:00] and yes, we are. I'm sometimes scared of too many people and I, I don't like the feedback and we both feel, don't, don't feel comfortable. But I think there are people that feel much, much. Less comfortable than, than we ever did in situations like this. And, Marc: and can I, can I just say like, just to, uh, I don't wanna come off as, as some master networker because I mean, I just need to also share, like, I remember a year and a half ago, two years ago, I was, I think it was Web Summit in Lisbon. Mm-hmm. You know, and, you know, someone generously got me into the green room, you know, back where all the big execs are, you know, it was my role in business development. But, but I was like, I just put that a hat away and I was like, lemme just do the networking thing. And even that, it was just. It was too much. You know, it was just like an overwhelming, too many people, too much effort for me to do the introduction, do like, do the story, et cetera. And I would just, I felt exhausted by it, you know? And, uh, you, you also have to have, to have the right mindset and, and have the energy, I think, for something like that, especially in these types of, you know, events like things. And, um, you know, I, I ended up [00:43:00] having a glass of wine and walking right out. Paul: Yeah. But he, I think, I think. If we try to. Try to takeaways again from this? Yeah, because I, I think that's, that's helpful. Yeah. Um, maybe I'll start with my three please. And then you can have some time to think about yours. Oh, good, good as always. So, so my first beat faster, no, but the first one to me is erase that, that, that feeling that you need to do network, especially when you're a younger professional or even although the need for networking is bullshit. Your network builds over time. You do it every day and how you interact with people, it's true. And how you are right. And, and whatever you project and, and your behaviors are, it's like leadership is the same thing. Marc: Mm-hmm. Paul: Yeah. So that's number one. So don't, don't stress about it. Uh, I think that to me, erase outcome and don't stress about networking itself. It kind of builds over time. It will be, you know, they're connected to this. Um, and the third one is also about authenticity and. [00:44:00] Do what feels comfortable to you. Some people are totally fine only meeting two people. Others are fine meeting a hundred, and there's no right or wrong. I think the wrongest thing you can do is trying to be or emulate someone who you are not, because that's never gonna work. So I. Marc: You know, that's, that's my third one. I'll, I'll, I'll have two and I'll, I'll break your consult consultant model three. Um, work on your story. I think that's important Absolutely. To have, be clear about, about the introduction, who you are and why. And the second, which is really essential, is the follow up, I think. Oh, nice. You know, where, and making sure that that's a, coming from a place of authentic inquiry and curiosity of, you know, real like. And, and that you're, that you're, you're curious to get to know someone. Um, that's, that's an excellent way forward. Paul: And can I add on this quickly? I think it's also No, no, but it's also that on authenticity that, uh, sometimes you just also. Don't be [00:45:00] like the other day I wanted to get in touch with someone that I, it used to be a client of mine. He then worked at a bank. I needed to get into that event of that bank on that, on the conference. Hmm. He was the only person that was at mine, and I wrote to him, was like, Hey, listen, I know we didn't talk for four years. I, I, I really wonder how you're doing would be nice to meet at one point, but right now what I need from you is, can you get me into that event? It was very straight up. Yeah. WhatsApp message. And he was like, listen, I actually left the bank, so, so no, but I would love to get, you know, you know, go for a beer with you. I was like, perfect, thank you. You know? So also be straight about what you need and want. That's true. Because what I hate is people that are like, hi, how you doing? And you know, the fifth message is gonna be like, tell me what you need and I'll tell you if I can help you want to or not. Right. And, and whatever. Right. So that's also. Right. You just, you, you just got me on that. No, Marc: that's a good one too. Alright. Paul: Alright, man. Um, any terminators today? Speeds. Marc: Uh, I would like to shout out the venture capitalist, uh, behind [00:46:00] this community podcast studio, which is pretty cool. Yeah, that's a terminator. Yeah, here we go. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I guess early investor Paul: and Uber. So they told us, and, um, for free, as long as you don't run it as a business as we are not. No, really. I went for some time. If this is a business, it's a very bad one because it's negative cashflow. 100%. Um, but lots of fun. Um, yeah. And my, my Terminator is also I Central Park. I mean, I, I know I is not a person, but I just, I am like, every time it blows me away, it's just so beautiful. That's park in the world. I mean, it's like, yeah. Amazing idiot. Marc: Oh, that's really hard. Paul: Oh, I had one also in Central Park, like it, this is connected to, with the back, a dude on his, um, what's it called? Electric scooter. Yeah. Yeah. Going at least 50 kilometers an hour, 30 kilometers an hour. Almost running over me without a helmet. Yeah, that's [00:47:00] made it of the week. Yeah. Marc: In a suit. Gosh. All right. Well, um. I mean, the only thing I would shout out today has been largely idiot free. But, um, we have, like, you know what? Here's a, I'm gonna go real New Yorker here, the fucking cops, right? Who aren't cleaning up certain corners of, of New York City. So there's this one corner, uh, on my way to, to bring my son to school, which I now have to avoid because there are at least four, uh, drunks and junkies talking to themselves at eight 30 in the, you know, eight, 10 in the morning. And they're there every morning. You know, they gotta clean them up. Paul: Yeah. What can I say? Okay. You know, here you go. Here you go. Yeah. Clean it up. Another one. Clean it up guys. Just one shout out. Um, sorry, I just dropped a bottle. Let us know what, uh, what you want us to talk about, um, if Yeah. Yeah, if you want get us, you know, at Paul dot funding@uhgmail.com or a comment, uh, on your, the platform of your choice. It was fun, mark. It was great. We're gonna repeat this tomorrow. I know [00:48:00] you have. You're on a tight podcast schedule. I'm tight podcasting schedule. I'm excited. You're gonna whip through this. Yeah. So you must like the whipping. Yeah. Okay. See you soon. See you.