Our Kids vs Elon's 10-Year AI Forecast | Ep 57

Marc (00:00) Welcome to guys like us. If you're new to this podcast, this is a podcast about all the things you start thinking about when you're in your prime, you know, midlife. You're gonna hear stories about family, leadership, friends, relationship, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shaped us and continue to move us. And in today's episode, we've got a really special one and provocative one for you because we're gonna talk about Elon Musk's 10 year forecast and what that might actually mean for our children. So it's real parental focused. And I'm your host today, Mark Winter, self-conceived artist, entrepreneur, husband, father of two, based in New York. And I'm joined today by my friend Paul Fattinger. Paul (00:45) Hey, how is it going? Yes, I am calling in for mebizza today. A former executive, father of three, love of rabbit holes, very deep into the AI rabbit hole, as you all know. And I'm very much looking forward to this conversation with you today, Mark. Marc (01:01) Me too. I think it's gonna challenge and provoke us a lot to think about what matters as we raise our kids. So let's get into it. Paul (01:08) Hey buddy, how's it going? Marc (01:10) Hey, how are you? Paul (01:11) I am fantastic, I'm fantastic. But I'm as always, Marc (01:15) Are you drunk? You sound drunk. Paul (01:17) I'm not drunk, I'm not drunk. But we can talk about drinks first of all, because I'm finally drinking again. I'm having this. I have a Marc (01:22) Yeah, please. Are you? What are you drinking? I want to live through you. What is that? Paul (01:28) nice French light cooled red wine, which was kind of my mission for the summer to have more of those. Look at the color. Marc (01:39) Beautiful. Look at that. Paul (01:40) But it was too hot to have it. And now I think it's the perfect time. If you hadn't moved our recording time, I would have cooked myself a nice steak to have with this. I'm still gonna do it afterwards. So yeah. Exactly, so I second-posed. How about yourself? I mean, it is 3 p.m. 2. Marc (01:53) That's what your second bottle's for. Don't worry about it. It's okay. You know, I I'm drink it's three PM. I'm but you know, I I yesterday was Labor Day weekend and we hosted a lot of friends and originally I was thinking, well just gonna kill one or two bottles and of course it started when my my friend brought over. She's like a a b a bottle of you know vive cocoa just to get things going and then six bottles later everyone was sort of just done. Paul (02:22) I love it. mean this this Marc (02:22) Of good stuff. Paul (02:23) the humbleness of season two is striking again, which Marc (02:26) Yeah, exactly. It's just it's just Paul (02:30) brings me straight to my Terminator of the Week because I am going to do a Mark Winter here and I'm going to call out myself as the Terminator of the Week Marc (02:41) Okay. I'm dying for this. Tell me. Paul (02:44) because I have scheduled a work trip for myself to Ibiza where I am right now. A work trip because I meeting my good friend who started out as my coach Johannes. because we're organizing a fantastic retreat for men to go a little bit and explore themselves and their inner workings here in Ibiza. Start sometime in mid-November. So this is also an Marc (03:16) Mm. Paul (03:17) ad. If anybody's interested, drop me a line at paul at guyslike.us. And yeah, that's what I'm doing here. And the idiot is I landed here, I opened the car and I looked in the middle console and there was a pack of cigarettes and I was like, this is nice. I started smoking. Yeah, of course. It's like, this is so stupid. Okay. But anyway, so this is in short, you know, summing up where I am and what I'm doing. Marc (03:46) Can can you can you share more about your men's retreat? What will I walk away with after several days with you and Johannes Paul (03:55) hopefully a better connection to yourself, an idea of, you know, how you tick, what your nervous system is doing, what's good for it, what's not good for it, how does it feel when it is in different states, maybe some tools and methods to regulate it. And, and with the overall goal, goal to kind of live a more connected life that is, you know, really true to your purpose and calling. Marc (04:20) Nice. Okay. Wow. That was super quir. You know, I was I was so tempted to like make fun of you. I don't know why. And then I realized like what a cool thing that is to go do. Really? Respect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. What a flex. Yeah. Amazing. Paul (04:29) It is a very fucking cool thing. It is a cool thing and I'm really looking forward to it. So let's see. So how about yourself? Marc (04:37) You know, so first of all, I wanted to give you I'm gonna have two terminators of this week. I'm gonna give you try not to to to levitate with your ego when I tell you this, but you know, you gave me A really good tip in the gym around using kettlebell exercises, especially around the worlds and things like this. You know, I started Paul (04:55) Hmm. Marc (04:58) to do it and get deep into that, and you really notice the difference both in your in your waist and your arms. So, like thank you for that. Paul (05:05) Awesome, around the world are killer, I love them. Marc (05:08) They're really great. They're kind of easy for me to do, but if you just do it over and over again, it's great repetition. You know, it's it's really smart. Paul (05:13) Keep your legs straight and your ass tight, my friend. Marc (05:16) That's what it is. Okay. Got it. Okay. Paul (05:18) Hehehehehe Marc (05:21) So the other terminator thing I'm gonna give not to myself, though I cook this recipe, is to the restaurant Kokari in San Francisco. They have this excellent Greek restaurant. And they I followed their cookbook cooking an octopus I've never through a method I've never made before, which is the following. This Paul (05:41) Mm-hmm. Marc (05:42) one, you create like you put red wine vinegar, a lot of spices in there, and then you throw the octopus in, no water, for about 10 minutes. And the theory is that the octopus itself has so much water, it just releases everything. And you get this the it's the most perfect tender octopus I've ever had. And kokari is the recipe. It's an incredible terminator piece. Now, the idiot Paul (06:08) Wow. Marc (06:09) of the week was how I chose to grill that octopus afterwards. So so Paul (06:16) you completely kill it. Marc (06:17) no, dude. You know what it was? I didn't I didn't let it dry enough and I didn't put enough olive oil on it. And so of course you threw it on the grill and then Paul (06:25) Hmm. Marc (06:26) you've removed it, and then suddenly all the purple and the tentacles are gone with that delicious flavor. So Paul (06:32) Hmm. Marc (06:32) so you know, I got part one right and I'll Definitely looking forward to part two. Paul (06:37) Hey listen, there's something exactly to look forward to, to do the next time and to do it better. I mean, that's what life's all about. Here you go. I mean, to do it right the first time is kind of boring anyways. Marc (06:44) There you go. But but but I just want to demystify for our audience, you know, like cooking something like that is actually way easy and super fun. And so anyway, I'm very happy, proud of myself. Paul (06:54) Nice. But that is a nice one. That's a very nice one. And is an interesting arc now to our topic of today because this is not connected at all. this is the segue is no, the segue is there is Marc (07:06) exactly. Exact I was like I was he's gonna do the mother of all segues here because Paul (07:12) no segue because we talked this afternoon, my afternoon about, you know, our next topic and we had a few episodes about AI. And I was kind of asking you, because you are working on this topic and you actually worked all summer on it, you know, what's going on? And we kind of landed on it together that a lot of things have been happening behind the scenes for us, would say, mere individual contributors. A lot of big questions are being asked in the C-suites of the companies, which needless to say, it's going to be an interesting conversation, but we settled on you know, talking about what's important for us as parents, as fathers in our cases, because we have kids that are going to grow up in a world that is most likely going to be very, different from the world we live in right now, and especially the world we grew up in. So that's the topic of today. And as a, Marc (08:16) I a hundred percent agree. Paul (08:18) and as a kind of a a rocket that takes us to this topic and that's a great segue. There was, you know, if you want an event that Elon Musk gave a very long interview to the economist. I think it was at the beginning of July, which was heavily reported on and, and, it's also on YouTube. I recommend everybody to watch it. I mean, you don't have to love the guy, but you have to give him that he calls himself the greatest human predictor of all times. Marc (08:49) Ha ha ha. Paul (08:50) which is slightly cocky, but actually not untrue. And what I found very interesting, I looked at the transcript and I fed the transcript to Claude and I think it's 14,400 words long, and he Marc (09:03) Wow. Paul (09:04) says the word children five times. Marc (09:08) Mm. Hmm. Paul (09:10) And for a man that has, I don't know, how many kids? 10, 20? That's interesting. And so Marc (09:15) At least. I agree. I agree. Paul (09:18) the exercise we're trying to do today is kind of take some of those predictions and apply them to what this could possibly mean for our kids. But more importantly, what this means for us and the decisions we have to take anyways. Yeah, what it means for those decisions, right? So that's that's kind of where we are. So what's your before I start with those predictions that came up there, what's kind of your first take on this to get a Marc (09:50) Yeah, no, it's a good it's a good thing. So I he is Yvonne's indicative of many of the conversations I'm having with people not quite at its level, but not that far off in that orbit, where you feel this great rewiring of global economies, of how work happens, of basically how we live and work and the confidence in that, right? is what's so interesting to me about it. and either they're all sitting around the same circle, you know, getting high underneath the same tent, or they're seeing data or the potential in ways that we haven't yet seen. Right. So that kind of validates the a point of view. Paul (10:33) That's certain, I think. Marc (10:37) Yeah. And you know, actually I was just reading today, just to to quantify kind of where this is going, you know, OpenAI said it solved a millenni a Millennium Prize problem, the whole like the holy grail grail of math. in 2000, a bunch of scientists said, the seven most important math problems. And like like did that. So okay, so it's already like absolutely carrying forward like that for us. And and I think it does challenge very clearly what does it all mean for education? how useful is it to know a certain thing, you know, versus broad abstract strokes of a thing. And assuming all that is true, when we tr look at our children, you know, how do we best prep them for the future? Seems like a very, very clear and open question. I don't really have answers to. Paul (11:31) And this is exactly, you know, bang on, on the first quote I wanted to give you and the first trigger for us. Quote Marc (11:40) Mm. Paul (11:40) on quote, said, AI is now better than at least 90 % of professional software engineers at writing software. It'll get to what I call stockfish level, stockfish being the chess app, right? That already beats Magnus Carlsen just running on a phone. And he says, it's going to get to 99%. And then that applies to everything, everything, everything. So is exactly Marc (12:04) Yep. Yep. Yep. Paul (12:06) what you asked. So what should we enroll our kids in? You know, I remember when they said, I remember everything about us and about our kids. They should learn Mandarin. They should learn mathematics. They should learn software Marc (12:21) Yeah. Paul (12:21) engineering. They should learn. It's almost, and nowadays it changes every month. So what is it? I mean, what are your, I mean, your kids are younger. Marc (12:33) Yes. Paul (12:33) mean, they're not even in primary school yet. And that's one of the other predictions he says in five years, he thinks that the combined artificial intelligence will surpass the combined and cumulative. human intelligence. So by the time your youngest goes Marc (12:52) Yeah. Paul (12:52) to school, computers, whatever you want to call it, artificial intelligence, is Marc (12:56) Sorry, it's it's step this stats blowing my mind. Yeah. Paul (12:59) smarter than everything all the humans combined. Marc (13:04) So I I go to what I will call the unaut unautomatables. What are the human skills and the qualities that I think AI can mimic but can never really own, right? Like what what's what the can't automate? I think a lot about, you know, obviously cr you know People are talking a lot about craft and making things and creativity and r you know and how we make stuff in in ways that feel new and vibrant and really wean on imagination. And I think my my sense is that what we're really getting to is an untangling of what I think modern modern capitalism has taught us to think like, right? Which is Paul (13:59) Mm. Marc (14:00) The very thing AI is replacing, right? So, you know, you grew up learning math, spreadsheets, and me too, right? Physics, like all those things. And I think you still need to be aware of those topics and what they are and learn them, right? Because that's contributes to your understanding of the world. Do you need to master them? I'm not so sure. Paul (14:23) So you're basically saying it is a very human, know, humanistic Greek approach of things, right? You learn, very generalist. You learn to know, you learn how the world works and its fundamentals. So that's physics, it's biology, it's math, right? You learn how this whole AI works. I think that's probably not uninteresting. And I think what comes on top is you learn how the human works. how people works, how society works. I mean, that's kind of where I'm at as well. I just don't know how this translates Marc (14:58) I mean it yeah, let's put it this way. Paul (15:00) into actual school, but that's a different story. Marc (15:02) Well no but no but this is really important thing. So so I wanna share t two bits of anecdote anecdotes here. AI a AI might supersede human intelligence, but it won't replace human intelligence. Like our human our kids will need to be intelligent, right, in the future. yeah. Yeah. Paul (15:19) We'll need to know something, you're saying. We need to know how to do something, yeah? Marc (15:23) Yeah, exactly. They need to have a world view of some kind. so they'll need to know how to do s like like any intelligent person, it doesn't mean that it stops you from the pursuit of being smart. But let's talk a little bit about where education systems are now and why it's so scary. So I was with a friend of mine and his daughter, she's she's young, I think she's twenty two, or nineteen even. She's Paul (15:50) Mm-hmm. Marc (15:51) at she's in University of Sh Stuttgart or Kaiserslawten, one of those Basel, Paul (15:56) Whatever, yeah. Marc (15:57) whatever. and you know, I was like, So who how is AI used in your school, right? And she's like, Well, right now we have to pledge that we don't use AI for our reports, et cetera, or we don't use AI for these kinds of problem solving, et cetera, dah dah. We all sign it. I said, but of course everyone does it. Everyone uses it, right? And then what about the p teachers? yeah, of course. They're all using that to grade their papers, right? Like it's just Paul (16:24) Of course, I never thought of this, of course. Yeah, why wouldn't you? Yeah. Marc (16:25) It's just it's like it's a circle jerk, yeah, of AI, right? So everything's just AI, we're gonna grading AI. It's just it's just really kind of hilarious if you think about it. And then so Paul (16:36) Point being Marc (16:37) well, I think universities are completely lost about what to teach and how to teach it. You know, is what I would say. Paul (16:46) Hm. of course. I mean they they don't have the speed. I mean, listen, I mean it took them twenty years to get in a new history book. How how will they adapt every six months to to a technology that is developing at an exponential speed? It doesn't work. It is insane. It's never gonna work. Which brings me to, you know, I had a conversation with a friend yesterday who told me, I'm taking my kids out of school. I am homeschooling them. I am Marc (17:12) Mm. Really? Paul (17:14) there's an online curriculum. Actually, my wife moves to Asia with them for three months. I'm gonna travel back and forth a little bit because all of this is bullshit. Marc (17:23) Hmm. Hmm. Paul (17:24) And I wonder and I ask myself and I'm and I'm challenging this, I'm asking myself a lot, and I've had lots of discussions with my dear co-parent and ex-wife about this and we're always settled, I guess, for the lack of a better alternative in all right, at least right now he's studying something. It doesn't really matter. I mean To give you an anecdote, he has a very strict geography teacher who hands out D's and F's in the tests because he asks him how many rivers are there and how long they are. Doesn't matter. But the point is, at least it's adversity, and you see that you have to do something to get something. And to me, in the world, and that brings me to the second quote that I wanted to to quote, where everything is probably. there in abundance because it's done by machines and it's done at a much lower price than we would have ever envisioned it to be. And you don't know what it means to actually work hard and achieve something, what's left? Marc (18:33) Yeah. okay. Paul (18:33) When work is optional, I mean there is this quote. He says, I've said many times, I think work is going to be optional. Your tomatoes are not going to be as plump and juicy as the ones at the store. But if you go to a friend's house and they make dinner with vegetables from their garden, it's a nice touch. This is what work is going to be like. Think of this as optional. Cute. Marc (18:53) Yeah. It's cute and I think that's that's very techno optimist, as far as I'm concerned. But let's say he's right. Workers let's say work as a Paul (19:04) Okay. No no no but say this. Why is that techno optimist? Marc (19:09) I think I I think things could go really bad before they get really good, first of all. maybe Paul (19:17) I fully agree. Marc (19:18) maybe people will will have the option to fig you know, can opt into work, but that might be a hundred years from now. But what I think he underestimates in his logic is I I think the the sense of purpose that meaning that people ascribe to their work is hard to supplant with a new idea. So for example, like I I can't imagine, like Paul, you're you're you're incredibly good at fucking off, right? You're you're you're really, really good at it. I gotta give you a lot of credit. But look look Paul (19:56) I'm a master of it, yeah. Hm. Marc (19:58) look how you're occupying yourself. You're even w as you're in between different ventures and and and roles, you know, you're creating a men's retreat, right? In Ibiza, just for the fuck of it, right? I mean, what's because it's meaningful to you. And you're making, you're doing like you can't sit still. And I think mo you're emblematic of what most people feel. And if you don't give people or point them out a task or something to do, I have a hard time imagining there being civic rest. I think things get really dangerous that way. Paul (20:31) I agree, but I don't think this is the argument. I think I and I don't wanna argue what he says, right? I mean he says that in ten years we're gonna have a robotic singularity, meaning robots can do so much shit that we don't even know what that means yet, right? And let that Marc (20:44) Right. Paul (20:44) be in fifteen that your oldest son is twenty is when he is in the middle of college. Marc (20:52) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (20:53) You know what I mean? So so that's kind of and and and and even if it's not ten or twenty, then it's twenty five, you know, but it's still right there. So I think it is relevant and I th I think there's no point in in arguing whether it's gonna happen or not, because I think it will, the question is when. And then the question is if work's really optional, you know, as a as an economic factor, not as an occup Marc (21:16) Mm. Paul (21:17) as an occupation, but as an economic factor. You have to opt in if there is even any, right? And where where are people gonna how many people do you know that really do things that follow their purpose? Versus how many people do you know that do the things because they need to make ends meet? Give me a ten one out of t how many out of ten are actually f follow on their purpose? Marc (21:41) It's a great provocation. Five five five their purpose, ninety five percent not. Like they're just making not just ends meet, their purpose is taking care of their family. Paul (21:51) and then the argument is in the future you're not gonna have to do this. So ninety-five percent of the people today are fucked because they don't even know what their purpose is and what they wanna do. Do they wanna grow tomatoes just because it's cute? What do I wanna do? Marc (22:03) Yeah. okay, so bring it back to our kids. So then do you think that Paul (22:05) So how do we teach them that? Marc (22:09) are we living in a world where basically we need to teach the skill of finding your personal purpose because that's the only way you're gonna be happy in the AI era. I mean that's an interesting provocation. but learning the skills of qu you know social responsibility and thinking about jobs or roles for the advancement of human progress or your own personal purpose is kind of an interesting shift in how we've lived our lives for the past eight thousand years, but I'm open to it. Paul (22:44) So so to the to answer our first question, my opinion if what they should study, I said already, I think is a generalistic view of things. I'm not sure they're Marc (22:53) Agree. Paul (22:53) gonna w they're gonna work with this, you know, i they're gonna have a job with that. Or because I'm not sure there even are gonna be a lot of jobs left, you know, for that many people that we are. Which brings me to the second one. I think f and I don't know how, we need to teach our kids the value of work and of effort. and of self-starting. We know how difficult it is and how many people are struggling, how many people are struggling when they made a big exit or when they all of a sudden got a lot of money or an inheritance, right? Because all of a sudden that big motivation to do something, i.e. l earning money, is gone. And and maybe for our kids that's not gonna be a thing. And so they will need to learn how to get up in the morning and do stuff. All of this in the light of social media and them already in my 12-year-old lying on the couch watching YouTube videos where other people play Minecraft, you know. Marc (23:53) ha yeah. Paul (23:55) So so so and this is kind of the the the context we're living in. We're on the one hand side we have a world that stupidifies our kids with social media and just really dumb content. And on the other hand, they will have to learn how to actually put this temptation away, get up and do something, where they probably don't have to. And that's what I find really scary because I'm not sure I could do that. Marc (24:20) Yeah. it it's it really stings the the motive saps the motivation from you. Well though okay, let me land the plane with you. So, you're keeping your kids in school, yes? Paul (24:32) For now, yes. Marc (24:33) Yeah. And do you believe that and and with the generalist education, which I totally agree with, and do you believe that certain subjects are now more important than others? Or they are all equally important? Paul (24:47) Yes, but I don't think the answer lies in the school system anywhere close to Austria because I think a lot of that lands on us as parents and that's the the human touch of it. There might be, you know, schools available when they're older. For now I just like them to be challenged, to be honest. I I I d this is the the the one thing that I don't want them to serve through school and that's already difficult because my son is telling me, Who cares? I pass with a D. Who cares? Marc (25:14) Yeah. Paul (25:14) I don't I mean, what am I gonna study anyways because AI is smarter than me. Marc (25:18) Yeah. Well, I I'll I'll put a provocation out there. I think two or three courses come to mind as being really critical. Paul (25:29) Go ahead. Marc (25:29) one being one being is any anything that's like an engineering course of some anything that breaks down how problems happen so you can understand how to make or co create with something. Paul (25:39) Fair enough, fair enough. Marc (25:41) So I I'm going after what are the skills that it's gonna teach you. I will think literature and English become or German, whatever, become actually more critical than ever because you need to be able to distinguish what an original idea is. And also like I think things like storytelling, communicate, all that stuff, it feels uniquely human and you need to, you know, things that feel like the human touch. That's number two. And number three is I think I have a wild one, which is Physical activity, like gym. Paul (26:19) one hundred percent. One hundred percent. Marc (26:20) Like human to human interaction, like collaboration and and and moving together against an objective are like the three that feel like most important to me. Fray to learn. Paul (26:30) I love it, man. I mean schooling and and paying for it is another one because the interesting one is money at the end of the day, right? I mean there is he is quote quoting Elon again, money won't matter in twenty thirty six. because Marc (26:46) Yeah. Paul (26:47) Of course he's doing his universal basic income and what they all do because that's kind of how where the logic ends when you think it through. What what I find most interesting when it comes to this is let's assume money doesn't matter or but let let's assume you know the way there I think i it's interesting What do we do with our money now? I mean, do we do we, you know, save it still for college tuitions? We w I think we don't know. Do we put it into AI stocks? Do we you know d l live it like it's our last day and just blow it like motherfuckers, which is super profound because we're not gonna need any in the future. What's your you know, I think so so Marc (27:27) Well Paul (27:30) I mean I think this is a a very general provocation and and and questions that are not necessarily Marc (27:32) No, no, it's a good one. Paul (27:34) related to it, but Marc (27:36) Look, I I I think like w we Paul (27:37) You know. Marc (27:38) have this fun in the States where you can you can put away some money tax free for your child's university fund 'cause universities Paul (27:43) Education, yeah. Marc (27:45) are are so crazy expensive. I am going to Paul (27:48) Okay. Marc (27:48) continue to to do that in case just in case my kids turn out to be really smart. because I think universities are, you know, the top ones are will always be worth going to to have that experience. And if they're building with machines or working with AI, I think that's the case like important. However If they turn out not to be that smart, I mean in that sense, you know, to get into a really good university, I might pull that money out pretty quickly, you know, and reinvest it into just as you suggested, the companies that are making the AI economy. principally because is I think a lot of these universities are scams. to my earlier anecdote here, they have no plan for AI. Why sh why would they have it, you know, in twenty years from now? Even though some of the world's best minds come together there, right? But they're just not circling around kind of what the problem of education is and should be yet. some will figure that out, but they're not gonna that's not gonna go applied downstream. So short answer is I'm putting it in. should you know they get into the top tier schools like the Harvard, the whatever Columbia pick your version of that. And if not, I'll redeploy those into this into the market. Paul (29:04) Yeah, you know, the the thing that I'm thinking most about when it comes to money and AI is that it is obviously a technology that lives off of capital allocation because it's extremely expensive to build this infrastructure, which means it's it's fueling capitalism to to I think unseen peaks and heights, meaning that the few companies we have right now, and maybe a few are gonna be added to this and maybe one or two are gonna drop off, but the famous Magnificent Seven and everything we see, and I mean then obviously the All the Chinese ones are gonna reap a lot of profits from that. And and why shouldn't we just I'm very often thinking, why should I not place all my bets on that? If if we believe that, that this is gonna happen, that this is gonna develop exponentially, that robotics are gonna come, then all Marc (29:53) Yeah. Paul (29:54) the value creation in the world is gonna depend on those few companies. It is a very Orvelian vision and and and view of the future, but if that is true. the people with capital in those companies, although they are totally overvalued by our today's measures, etc., will be unbelievably high and and we could profit from that. Marc (30:15) Yeah. that's a like that's a very valid and probably smarter strategy than what I'm doing. I'm I just don't have the balls to really allocate all my funds and in one outcome about the world. But it's pretty good and provocative. But can I sh can I share Paul (30:27) Neither do I by the way. Neither do I by the way. Neither do I by the way. Yeah? Marc (30:34) yeah, yeah, I could tell. But can can I remark on one thing? You know, do you ever look at what the children of billionaires do? And their jobs or creatives. Yeah. You know, they're Paul (30:44) Enlighten me. No. Do you? Marc (30:48) like, yeah. I mean, it's amazing. You know, some are like they're playing in tennis tournaments. They decide to wear in tennis, you know, like like entering the US Open or winning it. no one has real jobs. And you know, maybe you you maybe you look to them as the future, if that's what it is, right? What are they doing? They're po they're exploring the limits of their artistic or physical capabilities with unlimited wealth and capital. You know? Paul (31:11) Which Marc (31:11) Or if you're David Ellison, you're trying to, you know, you know, with daddy's money with with this extreme money, remake it and remodel entire business, which is like its own other singular thing, you know? But not a real job. Paul (31:22) That's a totally different thing. Marc (31:23) Right. Paul (31:25) But but it this one is interesting because another thing that a lot of billionaires are doing is building bunkers. Marc (31:32) Yes. Paul (31:33) And that's kind of my you know, my fourth one here. because when we think through all of this, right, If a lot of people are gonna get richer and richer by putting their money into the Googles of this world, how is that universal income ever gonna happen? is there gonna be a revolution? Is all of a sudden are is is the global government, the g community gonna wake up and finally tax capital because we don't really do this at the moment. so what's gonna be the the the path to there? And the quote I wanted to bring here is as follows. I mean it will be a bumpy road. I'm not suggesting it will be sort of that Everything will be smooth sailing here. You know, so it could be bumpy road, meaning, you know, maybe there's a ri maybe at one point people are gonna say, you know what? What's the point of having ten trillionaires in this world that own ninety eight percent of everything on this planet and the rest of us being eight point nine billion owns the rest. It doesn't matter. Let's start a revolution. That's where the bunker comes in and that's where I'm asking myself, should I go and find a small piece of land in the mountains of Austria where you can grow potatoes? zucchini and have two pigs where you can hide from the shit that is gonna happen. Maybe Marc (32:49) Yes. Yes. I would think really d I think I would be thinking about this more if my parents didn't have that property in Morristown with a lot of land. Which I because I like it it is a back of my mind backup plan. I always think like, okay, what happens when New York there's riots in New York, you go to shit. You know, people people should totally start a revolution in my building. It'd be really fun, you know? Paul (33:18) Listen, in my grandfather's generation, he had that same thought about the Cold War and he bought a big piece of land in Canada and actually one of his sons then emigrated to Canada is now a farmer there. so so I mean this has been is an age old doomsday fantasy Marc (33:32) Yeah. Paul (33:33) and I don't wanna be, you know, in this in this you know be put in that pocket of of, you know, Verschwörungstheoretica, you say in German, right? People that think Marc (33:42) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (33:44) of that the whole world is against them and the Illuminati are ruling everything. But I think there is an a case to be made to think, hey, maybe in twenty years things could be really shit. We are living in an unprecedented time of peace. Having said this, there's war very close to to where I live in in in with between Russia and Ukraine. But anyways, I mean we've haven't had a war in in in Central Europe for almost a hundred years, which is as long as it Has ever been 80 in fact. So, you know, pfft, I don't know. And and I mean I'm asking my I don't know what to do, but sometimes I ask myself if you make these logical deductions and you don't do anything about it, having three kids in my case, aren't we being very yes. Marc (34:27) Irresponsible. Yeah. You should totally think about that. Absolutely. If you have the means, I would be I would be on it completely. Look, I mean, it it doesn't hurt to think of the worst outcome. I do think like this could very well easily turn into a revolution. Hands down. Imagine Paul (34:44) Swordly. Marc (34:45) imagine if the valuations get get so big, so concentrated, you know, and the displacement of knowledge work is so mass widespread, then there's no reason to see why that wouldn't happen. You know? Totally, totally. Right. Which brings me to like where do you want to leave, you know? And we w Paul (35:01) Exactly, we'd be all fucked. Listen, looking at that yeah e exactly Yeah, go ahead. I wanted to make the segue with the people you're building before. Because there are lots of Chinese. And there is a final quote I wanted to bring. It's because he says Marc (35:18) Go for it. Paul (35:20) that I mean in in the end it was also the question who's gonna win the AI race and and and Elon was making bringing it down to energy and said China. And right it's coming back to the quote before we said or the the mention of learning Mandarin. So my question to you is would you have your kids learn Mandarin and move to China because they're gonna rule the world like the US did for the last two and fifty years? No? Marc (35:38) No. No. No. the I think what people there's a lot of reasons why I don't think that'll work, even though I'm a big fan of China, having lived there. have you ever tried to learn Chinese? I know you thought you could speak it in my building at one point after a few Paul (35:56) No. I did learn how to speak Japanese in fact, which is closer than you probably ever got to it. Marc (36:03) that link that like it's it's so it's so crazy. It makes no sense. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Paul (36:03) Also it doesn't make any sense with AI, man. You you talk in your phone, the other person listens to it in your their airport airport. would you have them move to Mars? Marc (36:13) No, dude, Mars looks like shit. I mean, it looks like a dust thing. Ms. This is the all the that's like Yvonne's crazy stuff. I mean, what's the difference between Mars and Dubai? I mean, I think like Dubai, that's what I imagine he would build on Mars anyway, like you know, one extended mall, because you can't really go out and and anywhere else. So But these are all these Paul (36:34) Yeah, you know, but yeah Go ahead. Marc (36:38) are all provocative questions, but you know, if if I had to land the plane a little bit. on this. I I actually think I would take real signals from how people with unlimited capital do spend their time, like children, you know, and they're developing a lot of the their their human skills, their creativity, their their making or the pushing themselves in athletics and in different ways. And I think like that could be more normative than we think. And I wonder if Paul (37:13) Think that's a good call. Marc (37:15) and if we were able to channel that energy to be less I would call indulgent, you know, you know, with with respect to being coming and more about like how do we push a more thoughtful age of enlightenment and our kids can be part of that, because they're liberated from you know, managing discounted f cash flow or creating slides for some client. Yeah, you know. Paul (37:39) Which is fantastic. Absolutely. Marc (37:42) Then Paul (37:42) But let's face it, I mean that's not a bad thing not to have. Yeah. Marc (37:46) Right. Right. So Paul (37:48) I like that. What what I take away from this is I don't think I've ever said it out so clearly is to challenge them, to push them, if it's academically, even if it's you know t to to learn by heart all the rivers of Europe and and North America, whatever, doesn't matter. Or sports, and I'm I'm with you on sports in general. And and broaden their human repertoire, which is to me the most difficult one because it's not offered in any course. And I think it's where we as parents really need to step in. Especially when we have the luxury that many of us have and many of us haven't. I I know that to be more present than at least our parents generation and for sure their parents' generation. To really be there and teach them some of the things that we have had to learn later on in our lives, if we ever had the opportunity to. So to me, that's those are the two big ones. And buy a farm somewhere, you know, or a piece of land where you can grow some potatoes, or we all move Marc (38:47) Exactly. Paul (38:49) to Morristown to see, you know, Marcus, you know, he just told us you know, enough space. Thank you. For all of our listeners for sure. Marc (38:54) For all of you. Paul (38:58) They will fit. Marc (38:59) They will fit. Great. Well, that was fun. Paul (39:01) Thank you, Margo, Superfun. Take care. Marc (39:02) Thank you. Cheers. Take care.