Do You Have a Woman Friend? | Ep 56

Paul (00:01) Welcome to guys like us. If you are new to this podcast, then how can you be? This is episode two of season two. This is the podcast about all the things you start thinking about when you are in your prime, a time that some people also call midlife. And you will hear stories about leadership, fun nights out, family, friendships like today. because in today's episodes we're gonna it's almost like episode five on friendships, because it is important, guys and girls. And this is about friendships between guys and girls. And a topic that has been talked about often in life. maybe we found a few different perspectives, especially because we have a specialist here, Mark, who will introduce Marc (00:44) Hello. Paul (00:44) himself right away after I do my part. Because who am I? My name is Paul. I am calling in from beautiful Vienna. Kind of a late summer, early fall Vienna. I'm an entrepreneur, a father of three, divorced single, which makes I think male female friendships a little bit more complicated. a lover of rabbit holes, and your co host today. Hey Mark. Marc (01:08) And I am Mark Winter. I am a also entrepreneur, self-conceived artist, father of two little ones who are driving me nuts recently. I'm touching the ground in more my feet are touching the ground in Morristown, New Jersey, at my parents' place. It's actually a beautiful summer day. you but you can feel the hint of fall coming. And I'm also a relationship specialist, apparently. So I'm gonna guide this conversation through on Cypher Paul to it. An Uber insight. Stay tuned, it's gonna be a great one. So, Paul, it's so good to see you. How was your week? You sent me a few text messages. It seems like you had some epic moments. Paul (01:48) Hey Mark. Yes, actually, you know, summarizing in it in the Terminator and Idiotic Thing of the Week is one thing, and is exactly the picture I sent you yesterday. I don't know if you remember. I sent you Marc (02:01) Yeah, I do. Paul (02:02) a picture of the beautiful vineyards outside of Vienna, which tit Marc (02:07) Mm. Paul (02:07) this time of the year are absolutely stunning. It was a beautiful day, 30 degrees out, views over the city, lots of people out, and you go and sit within The wines and you have the wines. And that was the second Marc (02:21) Mm. Paul (02:21) picture I send you. And that's a probably idiotic thing of the week that I don't know what happened to us. But it was a four adults there who just went nuts and I don't know, killed how many bottles of wine in the middle of the afternoon the day before school starts. You know? Fantastic idea. But somehow I Marc (02:37) Of course. Paul (02:38) had it in me and it was super fun, but I didn't feel settled this morning. Although it was great wine. you know, two what we're drinking, which is water again, I'm afraid. Yesterday we had some really nice Wieninger wine, wine from Vienna I can only recommend highly. How about yourself? Marc (02:54) Really? Okay. Well y y you rec can recommend it so highly you drank five of them. Let's put it that way. Paul (03:00) Exactly, exactly. Of which, you know, as a friend this morning that I met on the street said, and the way I know you, you didn't have one point two five bottles of dose. You probably had more like one and a half or two. in you Marc (03:12) At least. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (03:13) know, knowing how you drink. It's like thank you so much. It was great not to see you for two months, buddy. Anyways, here we go. I'm still here and I feel amazing. You look great, Marc (03:21) Good. Well, it's good to see you. Paul (03:24) you sit in some weird ass shit German basement. Marc (03:30) I'm hiding from my family to record this podcast, so it's it's better to go downstairs. Paul (03:34) I appreciate it, buddy. Marc (03:35) Yeah, you got it. hey, you know what? It's been it's been a long ass fucking summer. I don't know about you, but I'm so glad it's almost over. Like that's also true. Yeah. Paul (03:42) It's because you didn't take any vacations. I I did the opposite and I think it's been really short. Marc (03:52) Good. We're entering with two contrasting mental states. That's true. I will say so Paul (03:56) That is true. Marc (03:58) that's true. Like so so that detox and and brain thing didn't happen. The other thing I would say, but idiots of the week. So like I gotta say, the end of summer is also marked in New York by the US Open. And Paul (04:13) Yes. Marc (04:14) I love going to it. I you know, and then this year I was looking to casually get tickets and also maybe bring some for the business. They started like three hundred and fifty bucks. It's crazy. And we're like to the World Paul (04:25) It's cheap compared to the World Cup. Marc (04:27) Cup. Right. But the World Cup this happens every year, right? And I was you know, I'm still debating on going, but I was just like, God, like it's another sport that just became so bougie. And and you know Paul (04:39) Yeah man. I remember last year we talked about it already and I think you went or at least you had Marc (04:45) Yeah. Paul (04:45) this US open drink all day, which sounded like this Yes, exactly. I remember that was a part Marc (04:48) The honey deuce? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. No, I've been yeah. Paul (04:53) of an idiot of the week as well, because of having too many. Exactly. Exactly. So what's your terminator then? Marc (04:55) Yeah, spending all that money. Yeah, exactly. You know, I'm gonna give it to my dear fri I had a great beer. it's gonna be related to probably a bit of our conversation today with a dear friend of mine, Anthony Michella, who just came from Beijing and he was regaling me. He's like one of these great robotics guys. I think I tried to introduce it to him at one point in time. Yeah, yeah. Paul (05:16) yeah, yeah, yeah. I never remember. Yeah. Marc (05:18) So he, you know, was basically talking about what was like this crazy robotics conference. You probably saw the Paul (05:24) Did he go to the to the robotics Olympics or whatever? F fuck me. Yeah. Mm. Marc (05:25) images of erotic olympics. No, no, no. He went to the other stuff. But he said two things that were fun to me. First of all, you know, he's always he's always really funny, but he's like, yeah, you know, there's every there's a robot now for everything. It's crazy. There's a robot to to creak your teeth in the dentist arm. There's a robot to to, you know, they're designed just to exclusively wash your dishes. So basically you have all these Paul (05:52) Mm. Marc (05:53) different capabilities that are being perfected, someone will buy them up to roll them up into one, which is a really cool idea, you know. But Paul (06:00) Yeah, yeah. Marc (06:00) it feels a little bit like if you remember like Voltron when you were a kid, you know, the the lot the individual lions come to make the monster, you know? It's like right now Paul (06:07) Absolutely. Marc (06:08) when you visit that conference, it's like a bunch of lions, you know, that people are designing. And Paul (06:12) Very interesting. Marc (06:14) and eventually they'll come together. Paul (06:16) So, today's topic got introduced to me. I mean, you've said it before, to be fair, but by my dear friend who the other day, mid-haircut, looks at me. And it's like, I have a question for you. Do you think men and women can be friends? And I was like, This is a great podcast topic, but let me think about it. And my first I'll tell you right away, my first instinct was no. Marc (06:47) Mm. Mm. Paul (06:49) And then we had a great conversation. So you know, we talked about this. she's a woman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (06:52) I'm sorry, was your hairdresser a man or a woman who was cutting your hair? She's a woman. Okay. Got it. So I just want to like paint a picture. So she's cutting your hair and then mid topic, while she's cutting your hair, she just pontificates this out loud. Paul (07:05) Yes. Marc (07:06) Great setting. Okay. Okay. I'll leave I'll I'll leave that linger. I'll let that linger. Got it. Paul (07:08) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Let it let it's a good point. Yeah. Okay. Keep on going, please. Marc (07:16) Yeah. Yeah. His face his face is turning red. It's great. Anyway, so Paul (07:22) I said no. Marc (07:24) your instinct was no. Okay. I thought that well look I I well, I Paul (07:29) What's your take? I mean I r I I texted you right after that. You said that's a great topic. What's your take? Marc (07:35) think I'm the extreme version of this example, which is like I am a resounding guess. I feel like I I have Paul (07:43) Really? Marc (07:44) yeah. Resounding yes. And I think I'm in I'm in the extreme well, it's just because I have lots of like female and we should get into that, like like why and and outside of business context, like I've lots of friends who are who are great dear friends of mine who I would call, et cetera. And like you're laughing, which is really funny. Like you're that you're thinking Paul (08:09) No, I'm just I'm just thinking of a reason, you know, why why you have that and others don't and and the answers the answers are not good. But okay, keep on going. Marc (08:16) It's like Exactly. You're just gonna step into this entire episode. I like it. Yeah. Well, why don't Paul (08:25) Okay, no, please keep on going. Marc (08:26) you talk about why don't you talk about why you think it's hard? Why is it hard? Paul (08:30) No, I mean listen, my first my first instinct was that I I think There's always attraction in there, no? In that in Marc (08:42) Mm. Paul (08:42) that male female situation, unless you're, you know, unattractive to the other person that you seem to be too many. Marc (08:51) Exactly. Exactly. The answer Paul (08:54) So unless you really are you know Marc (08:56) the answer is just like Mark Mark is totally unfuckable and therefore like he can have his Yeah, yeah, exactly. Loads, right. Or he's yeah, exactly. Or the token K guy. Exactly. One or the other. Paul (09:01) He has tons of female friends. He's like the non-gay gay friend. Loads. Exactly. Exactly. Which is not true because you're, you know, very hot for everybody who hasn't turned on the video yet. I mean, it's an absolute catch. Unfortunately, merit. Marc (09:13) Ha ha. Paul (09:17) so so that's not it. No, I I I do think I mean, you know, I've had friendships that where I I think there was one you know some level of attraction on one or the other side. And that's why they they never kind of lasted, to be honest, because at one point if nothing happens out of that, then it it kind of vanishes. So so my first w instinct was around that, to be honest. I don't know. How do you think about that? Marc (09:41) Yeah, actually, I mean I will say this comes that my observation comes with a caveat, right? Which is that I've no Paul (09:48) Please caveat it. Marc (09:50) no, I mean, I've always been in a good rel I mean when I when I've been in good relationships, I've been married in in a relationship for seventeen years. So it's like a and I think because of that, that's been a helpful sort of guardrail, right? Like you can still have attractive friends, you can still have and actually Who doesn't want to have attractive friends? You'll want all your friends to be attractive. It's fun. But I think that that puts an appropriate guardrail around around where the attraction can go, if that makes sense. Paul (10:26) That makes sense, of course. Marc (10:27) And now if you were to remove that guardrail, right? Paul (10:31) Secondly. Marc (10:32) which is where where I think where you were going as a si you're the single guy. I mean, I'm the Paul (10:34) I no, but now I am. Marc (10:37) one who I like I I I forgot what that's like. Paul (10:39) N no no no but but but okay. But do you think that if you weren't married, some of these friendships would have had benefits? Marc (10:50) I okay. So there were definite times where I've in between girlfriends in my twenties, I remember this where I had other friends who were girls, right? Who I really admired, they were attractive, they're smart, they're all like, you know, catches in all their respect. And there were definitely moments after nights of nights of being out, part where like definitely crossed my mind to like cross the line. Absolutely. You know, I can come queen on that. And I think like very early on, like I I remember like I mean, a minor cross of the line. Let's call it that. We're still friends, you know, since then. But look who has marked marketing sits by. Anyway, this is my story, so so I'll tell it as I feel it. but I I think even then it occurred to me, I said, you know what, like you're gonna fuck this up if if it goes to the place where if it goes to the bedroom or anything else like that, it's better to keep it in fair ground, you know? And that might confuse Paul (11:57) Mm. Marc (11:57) the other person, might be tricky, but I was just like I I it's really fun to have female friends. And actually that's where I would like to go. Like it's a great thing. Paul (12:04) Thank you for going there. I think we got into the dirty corner way too quickly. Marc (12:07) Yeah, I agree. Paul (12:10) keep on going. I I this is exactly what was my question. What's you know, what's different to the male friendships and why is it fun, you know? Marc (12:17) I mean it's it's different perspectives of see I mean, men and women are obviously very different, different perspectives of looking at the world, different topics that concern them, they have different philosophies. I mean, like it's it's great to be around the female mind in all its dimensions. And imagine you just like you know and I think it's equally as great as the men's. And so if like you were able to just restrict yourself to your wife or your your serious girlfriend, right, and not talk to anyone else. Because of threat to the gender, it just seems like an absurd waste of experience. And do you agree? Paul (12:53) Nicely put. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So but tell me, of your female friends now, how how long have you had them? Marc (13:04) I mean, gosh, one married us, me and Vera. So I mean that was a long time ago. So I would say twenty five years, some are twenty years, some I've known since since university. some I have from work, you know, like the a work friendship that that became into more of a personal friendship with with the trust that comes with that, you know? And so I would say like I You know, it's a strong age range. And I've made some like female friends, I would say, recently in the past two years. Yeah. Yeah. You seem really Paul (13:40) Really? Really? Huh. Okay. Marc (13:43) surprised by that. Paul (13:45) No, I'm not surprised because when I gave it more thought on that afternoon at the hairdresser, I then realized that I do have female friends, but I've and these are, you know, a not even a handful, I would say, and all of which I've known for basically all of my life. Marc (14:05) Mm. Mm. Paul (14:06) So it's it's more in the in the you know in in the almost family corner I would say. Marc (14:12) Got it. Paul (14:13) but beyond that not so much. I I had to admit. So that's that's kind of so where I say and so I I kind of landed on yes, absolutely that's possible. But to me, you know, th those women are really like my sisters, you know, one hundred percent. That's that's yeah, or like my sister who I have one, yeah. Of that's so so that's fine. So Marc (14:37) Yeah. Right. You already have a sister. Paul (14:39) but you know, and that's and then I kind of thought, did I find any new female friends in the last five years? Not r not in obviously, I mean it's a difference if you've known someone for two years or for forty, yeah, or thirty-five. I mean that you can't make up a Marc (14:51) And you're not counting like the wives of your friends, right? Paul (14:53) I think that's an interesting one because the wives of my friends absolutely, but I don't because my filter was kind of like who would I comfortably go on a dinner with alone? Marc (15:06) You wouldn't go comfortably dinner with the wives of your friends? Paul (15:09) I would but I wouldn't it would never happen. Would it happen to? Yeah. Yeah. No, I would very comfortably go for dinner. I wouldn't have yeah. I I went out to dinner with Vera for drinks. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Marc (15:12) It just wouldn't happen because you're with your other friend. Right, exactly. Like I mean you wouldn't go out to dinner with Vera Yeah, I I don't think obviously you wouldn't have a problem going to dinner with Vera, but it would be it exactly. Yeah, but it would be we it's only just if she if she were in Vienna and whatever. I got it. Makes total sense. Paul (15:29) No, I mean now that I think of it, next time I'm in New York I'm gonna leave you at home watching the kids and I'm gonna go out with Vera. That's a great idea, huh? Marc (15:32) Exactly. Exactly. Fuck you. Exactly. Watch the kids. Yeah. That's a great she's fun. You never know. Paul (15:41) No, I totally agree. Yeah. Marc (15:43) well, so but you hit on something that that that is actually kind of a port to. So I actually don't think these female friends want to be your sister. They just want to be a friend. It's a difference between that. I wouldn't conflate those two. Paul (16:04) Hm. That's interesting. Why? Marc (16:08) I just think there's a different it's a different version of closeness. You know, it's just like it's a a friend of someone you respect, you take a look well, may maybe sister means something like implies an intimacy of family, right? That's maybe a little bit deeper than it needs to go, versus just like a c someone you enjoy going out with, you you really you respect, love their ideas, their fun, whatever, right? Paul (16:35) Yeah, okay, maybe I don't you don't have a sister, but I do. So to me that exact exactly. yeah. I I did I I don't think it's I didn't Marc (16:38) Yeah, I don't actually have a sister. So I'm showing my hand with my naivete. Paul (16:47) mean this as a negative thing or putting it in a corner. To me, this this went to saying these are for to me, They d attraction doesn't play a role there, you know, if because we came from that corner and Marc (17:01) Okay. Totally. Paul (17:02) they're very close to me. And I would you know be be be totally open about everything and anything, and that that's why. So that's is a very positive insignia that I that I put on them and I didn't want to pigeonhole them into anything. But that's the kind of Marc (17:16) All right. Paul (17:17) ones I have that are so close, and then I and then I would say there is nothing for a while, right? Marc (17:22) Mm. Paul (17:23) And then obviously there's people that you you know and probably who have dated and you've had this conversation about being friends and you know, that's actually I don't know, has that ever worked, you know? I mean, one of those, you know, very good friends. I dated thirty years ago, But I mean, exactly, that was twenty nine years ago so it's fucking goodbye, yeah, that topic. So and Marc (17:41) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (17:42) that's fair. But so there's nothing in the middle ground, that's why I'm I'm I'm surprised. There are people obviously I've met at work and it's not entirely true. There's you know, that I would meet regularly and I would also consider a friend. But obviously n not even close there as yeah. Marc (17:57) Let me ask you this as a sing as a s because you're single now, so right. So like it's just do you I think your priority is probably thinking romantic relationship versus friendship, is that right? Or, you know, are you capable of like you meet someone and you're out you're out on dates a lot, right? And like are you capable, you meet someone, you're like, Hey, you what? Like they're attractive, but you th it could be a lot more fun as a friend. Would you put them in that core category and then nurture that relationship? Paul (18:26) So the latter one I'm really bad at. I'm sure I couldn't do that. and there actually because for that this Marc (18:29) Exactly. I can imagine. You're like, you're like, the purpose of this was a date, and I'm not romantic. Like, so move on. Paul (18:36) Exactly. So if you kind of started out there, you kind of have to, you know, you have to actively friend zone people, which you in your status as being married, you automatically, you know, have a fr there is only a friend zone. There is no other zone. I mean there shouldn't be I mean Marc (18:49) True, it's it's a good advantage. Paul (18:50) we all know there is, but there shouldn't be, right? I mean I and I'm sure there isn't in your case. So Marc (18:53) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Paul (18:55) not what I'm trying to imply, but so in my case you would almost have to actively push. I would almost be and maybe that's a completed is a completely conflated self image which by the way would be totally in line with what men think about women in men women relationships friendships because men consistently overestimate their attractiveness whereas women don't so basically you know if you ask you and Marc (19:26) Totally. Paul (19:26) one of your women friends and you ask Mike and you you say you know Mike how attractive do you think the other person finds you, you would say, yes, I'm probably a six or seven, and she would say it was probably four. So maybe I Marc (19:38) Yeah. Paul (19:39) am also an a victim of that c over inflated ego. But I would I would be afraid that that there is more into you know Especially if you don't speak about it that there's more expected from me that I'm I'm I'd be willing to give. Marc (19:58) Okay, so I that's that's helpful. It's it's really interesting. let me ask step back, come with me to thirty thousand feet, like I like to take you sometimes, right? Paul (20:10) Mm. Mm. Marc (20:11) Do you think the world would be better if men had more female friends and vice versa? Paul (20:20) Yes, because I think a more diverse picture of the world always leads to a better world. Yeah. Marc (20:27) so that's true. You've got like the the world's better with different perspectives, therefore like men should men and women should be having more like group what's called green dot relationships, right? Like it's like respect Paul (20:40) Mm. Marc (20:40) and fun and things like that. And what gets in the way of that? There's a lot, but like I'm like, is there a a single or few things that get away in that? I I have a theory. Paul (20:51) I mean, I think o often what I hear, I don't think I have lots of experience that the it's a relationship that one or the other person has and and a jealous partner that gets in the way of this because they might not see the world. Yeah, that's one thing. Marc (21:03) Definitely a thing. Definitely a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (21:09) the first thing that came to my mind. What what's your theory? Marc (21:14) I actually I I think like the the online dating stuff that's been going around for Tinder, just the act of swiping and putting people into categories make Paul (21:23) Huh. Elaborate, yeah. Marc (21:27) makes you kind of box like is this a match or not? And no one talks about not, right? It's just a match. It's everything's just a romantically geared towards Towards either a date or a match or things like that. And I feel like that's a behavior that's applied to the romance side that I think people too easily bring to the potential friendships of other genders. So yeah. And that's just a Paul (21:57) So Marc (21:57) thought. And in a moment where, like, and this by the way, it's like this is also in a moment where exactly. It deletes the category. Yeah. Paul (22:01) So it deletes the category almost because it's binary. It's like either I wanna date or I don't ever meet this person. Marc (22:10) Precisely. Precisely. Paul (22:12) And that that this binary world, digital world, kind of enters our real physical space and you think manifests in the way we think and we treat Marc (22:20) That's right. Paul (22:20) relationships. That's an interesting theory. Marc (22:24) It's just, you know, we we we we we it definitely exacerbates how we see the world in terms of black or white, right? It's like date, no date, et cetera. There's I think all of us have probably have collective belief that, you know, you're definitely doing no dates more than you are doing dates, right? In the on these apps. I imagine that and if you take the no date pile, right, and actually looked at us for potential friends, there could be really cool people there that could be fun and lighten your life, et cetera. but your brain just and and obviously the apt, you know, trains you just to not think that way. So that's theory one. Theory two, Paul (23:03) Yeah. Okay. I like yours. Yeah. Marc (23:07) absolutely of course, jealous partner. I mean, there's stuff who just people who don't understand that, or the is there really some that I've definitely had that, you know, I think even Vera w like was like, Mark, you've all these like like female friends out in New York, like like What is that? You know, I just had to explain. No, they're just friends. I mean, she had a question and I clarified and she's cool enough to like now they're her friends. Very queer they Paul (23:29) Mm. Marc (23:30) queer that it was genuine, but I mean it it happens, right? and then I think like, you know, there's also we have social norms that it's really weird s ver often to go out and have dinner with like a female friend just and just keep it out of dinner. Right. It's just hard for a lot of people to go to understand that. Paul (23:55) I think people would actually be more able to keep it just a dinner. Marc (24:00) Yeah. Paul (24:01) more able than society to think it's just a dinner. I think it is you said it, you hit the nail on the head by saying it's a social norm. And I think Marc (24:09) Yeah. Paul (24:09) the reason why I probably wouldn't go out with you know, one of my friends' wives, obviously with his knowledge and everything for dinner, is because I would not be afraid. I mean, I personally don't give a fuck, but as you Marc (24:20) Yeah, yeah. Paul (24:21) know about what other people think so much, but it would be weird because the social norms are like that. A little bit in a sense. Yeah. Marc (24:27) totally. totally. Paul (24:30) And and and and that is stupid actually. And now that you think about it, you sold it to me. I wanna go out and have more because it is super fun. The conversation I had the other day, was amazing. It was a super fun conversation about, her experiences out in the world, and mine comparing and kind of getting both sides. It was really, really, Marc (24:47) totally. Paul (24:48) really super fun. Marc (24:50) Listen, I I I have you know, I had a a great friend of mine, you know, like like I'm just thinking about like we had a we went out last month for a few martinis. Anyway, I'm hearing about art, great shows that she really likes. I'm hearing about her dating life. I mean it's all very comfortable and fluid, and you're just like, this is so fun. Like, how do you see the world? Like just like Mark, I want your perspective on this and I want her perspective on that, on what I'm working on. So it's just it's really dynamic, you know. And like and look we we're all we're both social people. Like, you know, there are a lot I'm sure we can have more friends and and obviously have a more broad definition of a friend than others, but nonetheless, It's a great broadening of perspectives. And you know it's funny. I I'm reminded of social norms. So so obviously I've I a co founder who's who's a woman. amazing, she's great, And now like v you know, very pregnant. It's very funny. Like I think due next month. Well, it's just funny. We were at dinner with an with another friend of mine, who's also a woman, my my old EA in San Francisco. We were sat for Paul (25:55) Mm-hmm. Marc (25:55) dinner, et cetera, you know. And the waiter serves us like like we're was at a steak restaurant and then turns to me, it's like congratulations, you guys are like assuming that we were a couple But I mean, the like the point is is like but it's as opposed to like very queer business partners, but it's just funny, like you could you could see like why wouldn't you you know, th that's just how how a social norm sees itself, right? And Paul (26:24) Yeah, Mark. I'm just I'm really I'm not struggling with the wrong world. I am thinking when I talked about this, it was such a contentious topic last time. It's less contentious now. And I'm wondering if we're really that boring or if it's that simple. Because if it's just another it's not about the episode, but if if the if the so what of this episode is like the ones we had on friendship, that it is, you know, hard and harder, you know, finding an And having friends when you get older, and we talked about that. It's just by the constraints that life's life our lives put on us and where you meet people and how you meet people, and obviously work is a great source. Then there is a bit of social norm that is in the way of this. and that's it actually. And have more female friends because it's good for you. Pfft, is that really it? Marc (27:10) But hold on, Paul, but like let's acknowledge two things. There's the moment of life that phase of life that you're in now, right? In which case, like, Paul (27:15) Mm. Marc (27:16) hey, there are a lot of women who are committed, they're married, they're or they have different stuff like that. Like, of course it could be more fr I think it's more authentic and easier to be friends with them because like the the the the barriers are queer, right? Paul (27:29) Mm. Marc (27:29) And that's a that's the kind of invitation. I I agree with you, look. I mean, I think in your twenties 30s when you're single, it can get very confus it can get confusing, you know, for some, especially if you're run running around with a cadre of of you know very attractive friends. And then you know, it's a little bit like that show. Like at some point they're all gonna wonder what it's like to sleep with each other, whether it's good or bad, you know. But if you can successfully kind of hold it up, I think it's it's obviously tremendously rewarding. But it's harder back then when you're younger because everyone's trying to find their mate and it can get a little bit confusing without you being queer. Yeah. Right. That's right. But in this phase hold on, let me finish this up. Yeah, that's also true. That's true. Paul (28:07) Or single because it is kind of because you don't know. I mean you kinda need to clarify in a sense. And I mean, with all the open relationships and shit that is going around nowadays, you don't even know if someone else is married that that's actually already off the table and you don't have to talk about. So I kind of feel but that's what I meant. I meant it before jokingly, Marc (28:24) Mm. Paul (28:25) but I I mean maybe that's also true. I I I do think though, and that's the difference between, you know, obviously men meeting, maybe that's a topic that needs to Be surfaced right at the beginning of a friendship being created that this is a friendship. So actually you need to friend zone. Don't you think? Have you ever done it actively, Marc (28:43) Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Paul (28:48) you know, kind of drawing the line around the playing field and saying I mean, I know this is clear, but just so I've said it once because you know obviously I'm very attractive and so are you. Marc (29:01) It was so funny. I have been definitely mindful of social norms and so so like by that by that I mean of saying like, hey, you know, mentioning that Vera like early on that we're fun and happy and like and implicitly saying like I'm also not a swinger and you know, like it's somehow that's gonna Paul (29:25) Exactly, exactly. Marc (29:26) come in the first ten minutes and then Paul (29:28) Exactly. So you were you didn't you Marc (29:29) And then we could talk about being friends. I agree. Paul (29:31) because when you the the thing is when you actively friend zone, right, it's almost a bit of a cocky move because you kind of like assume that the other person would No no I'm getting into this because if you because you did implicitly friend zone, you because you didn't Marc (29:46) Todo lo que. Paul (29:46) have the boss to say, you know, this is a friend zone territory. You kind of danced around and made some stupid things. you know, and just before I left my wife Vera, who she looked so hot today. Marc (29:51) No. Yeah. Paul (29:56) You know, she told me, have fun with your female friends, you know. Exactly. So so you also didn't really, you know, let the cat out of the sack, how you say in German, or call the elephant in a room out. Sadly. Because it's cocky Marc (29:58) That's exact that's exactly what I do. Yeah, exactly. V Vera, the most beautiful woman I've ever seen, exactly. And this this one exactly. No, no, no, no. Listen, I think you do it very you do it very cloud yeah, exactly. Subtly. Paul (30:17) when you don't. It's like you're kind of saying, Hey, listen, I know I'm fucking smoking hot, you know, that but this is a fucking friend song. No, it's true. Okay. So Marc (30:24) Dating with sorry, date dating with Paul. It's great. I love it. Exactly. The blunt instrument w well no no no no sorry. Well Paul (30:28) And we're not dating it. This is exactly the point. It's the opposite of it. Yeah. Marc (30:32) yeah, the opposite. Making friends with Paul. The blunt instrument that is the Austrian mindset or the the Fatiger watch. Paul (30:37) No, no, no. But this is I think this is important. It's about expectations in life and what you actually want to get out of. And I'm very bad at this, at setting this in in pr in inter personal relationships, you know. We are friend zone, by the way, in case you didn't know. Marc (30:51) Yeah, I was I was about to say I re People are gonna wonder. Paul (30:55) Okay. So are you taking away more out of this than I do? Because I'm still a bit deflated. Other than the transparency thing, and that actually I think just not going because you're afraid someone might want something from you or you might develop something that that is inappropriate in a friendship is maybe stupid because it it makes you not ever go. And you can't just also go out only have friends that you find completely unattractive. I agree with that point you made in the very beginning. I mean, who the fuck wants that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (31:27) Everyone wants hot friends. Right. I mean like go out with and f feel baller and banger. I I think First of all, this conversation was like it it's funny because I was thinking we might fall on opposite ends of the spectrum. I think we agree, but I'm walking away with and I kind of fell into this, like, look, you know, the world would be better if like we all had had more cross gender or inter inter what do you what you call it? Just male female relationships. Let's put it that way. We'd be much more better if people had Paul (31:56) Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (31:58) more of them. And I think your call to action should be to go find some of those. And bring those into your life more intentionally. And and that would be Paul (32:05) No, absolutely. It should be. It should be. Yeah. I agree with you. Marc (32:08) a good that would be a good difference f for for you. as you brought in your broaden your perspective. Yeah, yeah, exactly. How Paul (32:13) Yes, and in order to do that, I I want to create a safe zone though, you know, on the on that, yeah. Marc (32:18) to create this a safe zone I can't help you with, but I wish we could send like a video crew. Okay. I helped you by dancing. Good, yeah. That's right. Yeah. You know, you Paul (32:21) Well you did, you know, by just dancing around it. I just don't know how I do it, you know, as I'm not in a relationship, you know. Yeah. No. Mm. Okay. Marc (32:31) could say, Look, you know, I Paul (32:33) I'm really done with dating. I'm really happy to be single in this part of my life. I know, I'm doing it all the time anyways. I know Marc (32:34) I really believe in I yeah, it's I know you just you just be like, Look, you know, I I I'm on this radical experiment of six months of celibacy and you're meeting me in month one. Let's it's just before Paul (32:49) I mean there were parts of my life where this was not wrong as a statement, you know. It wasn't six months though, as we both know. yeah, yeah. And Marc (32:52) I know, I know. This joke comes from Paul (33:00) I tried to avoid all the interaction with females at this in this period of time. Anyways, that's Marc (33:04) Yeah, yes, exactly. Y you know Paul (33:07) that is another episode. Maybe one hundred though. Yeah. Okay. Marc (33:09) Paula's monk. Hey, listen, I had a lot of fun. This was like a good exploration. I feel I Paul (33:14) Huh. Interesting. Marc (33:15) feel not surprised that of course we're gonna see the value in in you know we're we're of of female friendships, of course. but I think the like I'm my brain is going to imagining a world where that's more the norm and that's really kind of an interesting place. Paul (33:39) Yes. And the fact actually that what I think that you know this question seems so loaded too many, and then when you actually talk and think about it, l loses a lot of the electricity, if you want, and is less loaded, Marc (33:51) Yeah, that's right. Paul (33:53) actually tells us that we should look at this with a little bit more brain and less prejudice and less you know less what the social norms might want to make us think about. Marc (34:07) Yeah. Paul (34:07) Because if you really put your head a little bit around this and and and also your gut feeling, it's it's an amazing thing to have in your life. like friendships are in total and like with everything, diversity is an awesome asset. Marc (34:22) Love it. Well said. Paul (34:23) Love it. Have a great afternoon, my friend. Or morning. Marc (34:27) I will. Thank you. Good to see you. Bye. Paul (34:30) to see