Sold The Worst Failure as a Win | Ep 64

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. this is the podcast about all the things you start thinking about when you are in your very best, in your prime, and obviously we mean somewhere in your midlife or mid-forties. on this wonderful podcast, you're gonna hear all the stories about family, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, and Leadership. Very relevant today. And in short, all the things that shape us and continue to move us. I am your co-host, Mark Winter, self-conceived artist, totally delusional storyteller, as we'll get to in a little bit of time, husband, father of two, based in beautiful New York, and I'm joined by Paul (00:41) Well your other co-host, Paul, out of rainy, Vienna, Austria. Father of three. a loser. I mean, we're gonna come to this. I've fucked up many things in my life, both personally and professionally. as a CEO uh that I was before, and so on. And let's not get into all my failures because then this intro is too long. So I'm looking forward to this conversation today, Marc because Marc (00:58) I was about to say Paul (01:01) We are going to speak again. about failure and the stories we tell ourselves to overcome it. That's an interesting one. So we're gonna dissect Marc (01:10) Looking forward to it. Yeah. Paul (01:12) that a little bit again today. stay tuned for failures. Marc (01:16) Paul, how are you? How was your week? Paul (01:19) Man, I mean, you know, last time we spoke, I was on Mallorca at twenty five degrees and I was basically showing off to you know you that I was sitting there in my summer outfit. Now it's I'm in Vienna, Marc (01:29) That's right. Paul (01:30) it's November, it's raining, it's fucking freezing. Hey. But great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Marc (01:33) Really. Hi. good. Good. So you're in a great mood. Paul (01:39) I'm in a fantastic mood. No, no. But if you want me to summarize my week in a Terminator and an idiot of the week, where do I start? Marc (01:45) Please, please. That's my reading question. Paul (01:48) Yeah. Okay. I can tell you my idiot, okay? I mean I my I idiotic thing is that yesterday, you know, uh friends over and I did a big piece of, you know, a roast. I had like three and a half kilos of beautiful, you know, um yeah, amazing. Marc (02:01) Wow, three and a half kilos. Paul (02:04) Yeah, like a big roast in the oven and I had to coordinate with the potato. Of course, cow, cow, cow, yeah, cow. And beautiful club steak actually Marc (02:06) And and by the way, th that's cow, right? Cow or or pork? I mean you could rust a pork butt, you know, or pork shoulder. Paul (02:14) that I left as a whole and put it in there. And then I I know, and now that I do everything with Claude, I trusted Claude on doing this, which I should it was the worst meat I have ever served to anybody. It is Marc (02:22) Really? Really? Paul (02:29) appalling. It is embarrassing. It is I was Marc (02:31) Is is that why you got so drunk? Paul (02:34) clo yeah, close to tears. I was close to tears. And even this morning I woke up with this foul feeling in my belly, like I did something wrong, you know. After a night of going out, like this was long time ago, I would wake Marc (02:48) Yeah, yeah. Paul (02:48) up when it was like, Fuck, did I really do this? And this was the same feeling I had today, just about the meet. Marc (02:56) Mm okay. Wow. I I lo I you talk you talk Paul (02:57) Hey, to top it off uh Marc (02:59) you talk hold on, you talk about overcooking meat like having a regrettable one night stand, you know, like you like you wake up the next morning, you're like you know like you're like, why did I do Paul (03:06) It it is. It is. It no it's worse actually. Marc (03:10) that? How did exactly? It's worse. It's worse. Exact Yeah. Paul (03:12) Exactly. Exactly. Uh it's it is the worst. It's but you know, it's very close to but the best thing the terminator of the week is clearly our new dog, Lottie, who is extremely cute. She's very Marc (03:26) she's very cute. She's very cute. Paul (03:28) cute. I send you pictures already. And I always thought I'm gonna be the tough as so I mean I think it's pretty clear already that I need the one I'm the one who needs the most um training on this talk because I find her so incredibly cute that um she's already playing with me. Marc (03:45) Yeah, okay. She's walking all over you, refusing discipline. Paul (03:49) is unbelievable. But she's so cute. I couldn't I I never was a dog person in my life. I never thought I'd have a pet, but she is unbelievably cute. Marc (03:59) Okay. Okay. Welcome Lotti to the family. Nice. Nice. Paul (04:02) Yeah. So how about yourself, my friend? Marc (04:05) You know, it's uh we are having first of all an incredible stretch of weather here in New York. I think it's been about three weeks of perfection. Yeah, exactly. Start there. I mean, Paul (04:10) Oh, fuck you. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (04:14) look, the background's always the same. It's crystal clear skies and nice place. And Paul (04:17) No, I saw it. I saw it. I'm seeing it. Yeah. Marc (04:19) and um, you know, it was Halloween weekend and I think the Terminator piece Paul (04:24) Ah, yeah. Marc (04:25) is, you know, how awesome is it if you like proactively order all the costumes like two weeks before? And that's me. So my kid, was like, What do you want to be for Halloween? No, cool. Used a Pikachu, and I was like, the parents are gonna go out that weekend because we sent my par the kids to my parents um so we could go out on a Friday. And I already had costumes for Vera and I. Like everything, it was so spicy, I guess you would say in German. Like everything was aligned to the T. This is what he gets, etc. It was the smoothest Halloween of all time. And um I felt just Paul (05:01) That's your terminator. Marc (05:03) yeah, obviously me. Like being prepared prepared once for life. Paul (05:05) I love this that you I This is such a great show of character that I always speak about the idiotic thing I do myself and you take always a Terminator yourself and then you talk about some other idiot. I mean, you know what that means though, but that's fine. Please keep on going. Don't don't be Marc (05:22) It does. Well, it's it's it's good really it's related to our topic. Okay, idiot of the week. I gotta say, so I I've been playing around with Muse uh on Facebook. I don't know. Have you played with it yet? Or Paul (05:33) No. Marc (05:34) uh it's phenomenal. It's a it's a it's it's um fantastic personal agent. Actually, you should stay away from it because if you get too hooked, you given your relationship with Claude uh Paul (05:45) Mm. Marc (05:46) you might you might get a little too hooked on this. But um here's an example. Of what it it could do, right? I'd be uh I I used it in Paris, I think about three weeks ago, four weeks ago, where I basically said, Hey, I wanna have a uh get a toy for my son, who's five years old, right? Paul (06:03) Mm-hmm. Marc (06:04) And you know, it shows up a bunch of options. Do you want like a a puzzle? Do you want like a gift? Do you want clothes? Well, you know, whatever. I was like, No, no, I want like a toy truck. Just fucking with it, right? And it's like, okay, well, here like the three places around you that are three uh toy trucks. So it's like, I would like the cheapest version of that toy truck, right? They're like, okay, this is the cheapest version of that toy truck. If you sign for this loyalty program, do you want this stuff? It's like cool. And then I was like trying to say, like, if the other store knows that it's this price, can you get a cheaper price for me? You know? Couldn't do that yet. But here's the kicker. Paul (06:35) Wow. Marc (06:35) I was like, I'm in room four one at the Marriott Opera Hotel. They're like, Great, Paul (06:40) Mm-hmm. Marc (06:40) I can I'll have it delivered for you. Right. So it sends a DoorDash person to go to the Gallery Lafayette, pick it up. And then bring it to my hotel. Not bad, right? Little did I know, the idiot is. Of course, I gave it loads of information, right? About my I gave it my striping count, my car account, etc. And then, well, I mean, you had to just to make sure that it works so I can tell you that great story. And sure enough, I ordered three like stupid things on Muse while I was uh like yesterday was having too much to check. Suddenly the door van's like, hey. Did you get some like uh you got some a pizza order? I was like, I didn't go order pizza, right? but wait, fuck I did. I told news to get Because Paul (07:26) Really? Marc (07:27) I was like yeah, because I was messing with it maybe with a glass of wine the night before. I was like, Bring me pizza at six PM tomorrow, right? And sure enough, anyway. So at a yeah, it did. Paul (07:36) It did. Wow, man. Just a a last question to sum this up. What were your costumes? Marc (07:43) Okay. Um, this is the laziest costume of all time. So I'm just gonna say it. Um, I went as uh do you know the movie Eyes Wide Shut with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman? No? Okay. Doesn't matter. Of course Oh, yeah, yeah. I was just Paul (07:59) Course I do. I do. You just took the mask. So you just took the Marc (08:05) No, I said I was an orgy attendee. You know? Provide one shot. Paul (08:11) It is really I I think this is the perfect segue into this episode because Marc (08:11) And I had a robe. And we all black. uh Paul (08:17) you could have easily, easily told the story as a complete failure and that you were the idiot of the week, that your costume was so cheap and shitty, you know, that uh anyways, that it was embarrassing. But no, Marc (08:31) Yeah, yeah. Paul (08:32) here you go and you sold it as a win, which takes us right into the into the heart of our of our conversation today. Marc (08:35) I sold it as a win. Paul (08:41) You know? Please enlighten us. Marc (08:42) That's true. Okay. So um today's t today's amazing topic, and I I I hate you for s for this tee up, is the stories we tell ourselves about failure. uh Exhibit A Exhibit A. Paul (08:58) You did this to yourself, my friend. You did it completely to yourself. Marc (09:03) Okay, Genesis for this topic. So I I was Paul (09:06) Please go. Marc (09:08) um I was sitting uh I was having a drink last week with um Paul (09:13) Mm-hmm. Marc (09:14) an ex CEO of uh of a services company and you know it was so profoundly interesting. I I have some, you know, like a lot of services, like in the AI stuff, things are collapsing, you know, they've had male mass layoffs, this kind of stuff like this, right? But you know, I had some preview. into um the story behind the collapse, et cetera, right? And you know, I was asking like, you know, this director now has some so some nominal kind of kind of position at the company. But I was basically asking, you know, this person, I was like, well like how do you feel? Like I'm just curious. Like, you know, like like you used to read this company, like, you know, it was it it had a very sterling reputation out into the field. Right. Now it's just like it's a fraction. Of what it was, you know, and it's heyday. And I think you're like you're you're kinda saddled with a lot of that legacy, right? For that, right? Just to ask her, like, like Paul (10:09) Mm. Marc (10:10) like how are you how are you feeling about it? And what what came out was like a story so divorced from reality, you know, between like Paul (10:20) Yeah. Marc (10:21) like I think how other people experience that shift and that change. I know from from from clients, from obviously from people who work there, right? To how This person interpreted this change, which is, you know, of like could not be more different. And it got me thinking, you know, just as like the story was unfolding, I said I was like, first of all, this is an excellent podcast episode, right? Because Paul (10:46) Mm. Marc (10:48) how we experience failure, the story that we tell the stories that we tell ourselves about it, right, is so profoundly tied to the lessons we obviously drive from it. And I think also. How those stories change when you're still very much in the processing moment versus the story you tell yourself far several years later, you know, and back. Paul (11:11) I I love this mark. I mean, apart from the fact that I love the term being divorced from reality, which I'm gonna steal and use uh a lot of times now I like this story because it kind of links to what we talked about failure in I think episode forty eight or something like that. Because I remember that I I think I said at some point and we talked about you know accountability, remembering that you have to own your failures and all that is right and still correct, right? And I kind of said, Yeah, but if I think of myself and my biggest failures, I'm still kind of trying to sell them as a win for myself. Mark, so you're the master storyteller. So how do you spot a Delulu story? when you had this meeting with this CEO, I mean you smelled the delular from miles away, how can you spot Marc (11:56) Think I think like when you Paul (11:57) That Marc (11:58) when you look at well, I think it's pretty clear. First of all, you look at the outcome and and you hear the story. What's the story what's the story that Paul (12:02) Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Marc (12:05) they told themselves and you get an outcome like that? Does that actually correlate or work its or work its way up or down? You know? And that's one. Two is very often there's next level finger pointing on everything on everything else but yourself, right? And and in that story Paul (12:23) Yes. Marc (12:23) itself. So Paul (12:24) Yes. Marc (12:25) like what I found is like this is a great example. It's like, okay, the market shifted, some of our best people left, like, and Paul (12:33) Yeah. Marc (12:34) yeah, the like probably the offering need be reinvented, but I was like, okay, if like I mean there's an order to those things, you know, that could have happened, etc. Yeah. And and Paul (12:40) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Cause and effect, it might be flipped, yeah. Marc (12:45) and I would say the number one thing is um people always shift as timelines. Like, like for example, like there are market signals that were shifting in this company's business years ago, right? Right. But in the telling of the story, it was this year, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly, you know, exactly like. Paul (12:59) It's in a minute. Exactly. Okay, enough, fair enough. Okay, fair enough. So but but you know when when Marc (13:04) This towel I wasn't I was like, No, no, no. That was actually there for the minute. So like the seeds like Paul (13:07) W when you fair enough. I got I got you. When you wrote to me this morning or last night, it's like, you know, I want to talk about failure and the stories we tell ourselves to overcome it. I think that's pretty much how you said it. I was intrigued Marc (13:19) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (13:21) and I'm wondering now, because the story you tell me and and correct me if I didn't understand, is a story of someone actually not owning up to a mistake and uh and making something out of it uh that is Doesn't really sound like a failure, or is it a failure obviously because I I d I don't Marc (13:39) Yeah. Paul (13:39) know. But how is that overcoming the failure, you think? Is that a way to overcome the failure? Marc (13:44) Well, I think like what what I found is that I think that it's such an epic one. I think what a lot of people when you're when companies collapse or ideas collapse, right? Like it's too hard to take ownership of it yourself. And what I found out is that it's a very big symptom for a lot of founders and other CEOs, right? Very often, like when when there's a collapse in the business or the business doesn't work out, right, like you can see really clearly, um in almost kind of distancing, right, from the whole situation i itself. And it's like, okay, well like I put this beautiful thing out in the world, right? And and it did not respond or or didn't take flight because of things that were outside of my control. Paul (14:29) But isn't that like a failure to own up to the mistake rather than a way to overcome it or Marc (14:37) I think I think it's a processing piece. I like I think like if they Paul (14:40) Mm. Marc (14:40) I think deep in in their in their very hearts they know right exactly like where things went went wrong. If you actually sat them aside and talked to it, et cetera, like they they would they would really kind of own up to it, right? But I think in terms of how they tell that story to the outside world to rehearse it constantly. You know, I'll give you I'll give you a more public example we can talk about. You know. If you listen to like John Foley at Peloton, you know, like a it's like an elsewhere, like epic collapse of a of a company, you know. Paul (15:12) Mm. Mm. Marc (15:14) And then like when you hear how he tells that's that story, you know, it was the p it was a pandemic that gave us our official rise and stuff like that. I mean, if you look actually look what what what he was saying. while the company was hot and what he was saying when the company collapsed, right? You're thinking these are two very different realities at the same time. And and the collapse Paul (15:32) Yeah. Marc (15:34) and it's more about the processing piece here, which I think is very interesting. Paul (15:38) but where do you think that comes from? And and you said it's this processing step, you know. But uh where does that you know feeling that you is it a feeling that you can't talk about this failure? That it's that you know people will judge you for Marc (15:53) Yeah. Paul (15:53) being a failure. What what do you think? I mean, also from your own experience. I can tell you from one of my experiences, and it and you know I'm a v I think rather self-critical person. So when you tell this, and I mean I I got fired from a you know a really nice job. You know, a Marc (16:10) Yeah. Paul (16:10) a job that not nice in the sense a job that I really loved and a job that I I liked doing. And I mean I clearly did some things right and I very clearly also did some things not right. Um And telling this story to this day is not easy. Marc (16:27) Mm. Mm. Paul (16:29) Because I mean, as much as therapy as I've had, I still care, or sometimes maybe care too much what other people think. Because and I think this is kind of also where it comes from. Because failure, while you know, so often talked about in every fucking entrepreneurship course, right? And we hear hear it out of Silicon Valley, you have to fail. If you don't fail, you don't try. And if you don't try, you don't get anywhere. I don't know how many motivational clips I've seen from I think Tom Brady saying if you don't fail, you don't try, you can't do anything, you know, blah, blah, blah, is the the Marc (17:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (17:03) only way of learning, etc., etc. So you have all this stuff out there, which I you know I agree. And then though, you have 90% of the world, I feel sometimes, that is scared to talk about failure or or would look on you in a funny way if you tell them that you failed. Failing Marc (17:22) Well let me ask you this. Paul (17:23) a marriage is the same thing, by way. talking about the divorce, you know? It's very similar. Marc (17:26) No, no, no. I well I think that's that's that's that's that's heavier in a way because it's more personal. But at the same time, I mean like when it's company failure. Paul (17:35) I don't know man. I think I feel more comfortable telling that story than than than the you know, being fired. So maybe that's also a culture thing between the US and and I think it's more Marc (17:43) Really? No, I mean Paul (17:46) yeah. Marc (17:47) I mean it's normal to be to to I mean it's everyone gets fired, everyone gets divorced, right? I mean you pick you pick your poison, right, in terms of that. But I th Paul (17:56) Uh totally. I mean Marc (17:58) but maybe maybe I think what I'm struck by is there's look, I've had failures too many, right, in my career and you know, things didn't close, initiatives that didn't work out, like things to have to accept. I also tell myself story as well. You know, if this had gone my way, we would have a di very different kind of narrative to tell. It didn't, you know, and it everything is on the thin margins. You know, I I always I I do that too. But I think like this is like these kinds of these are like profound collapses, you know, in in in business, what we're talking about. So it's not just like and Paul (18:31) Yeah. Marc (18:31) I don't know if you would consider you being fired profound collapse. I mean your your company still existed, like womb's still out there. Paul (18:38) No of course. I mean it it wasn't Marc (18:39) And it's built on that like you got no, not at all. Like you got Paul (18:40) actually. No, and it's uh and it and and and it's doing great. I think the collapse was more in in Deep into this was not so much on the Marc (18:47) No, we don't need to. Paul (18:48) on the business side of it, but uh and and sometimes things don't work out anymore, and it was the right call. And I'm I'm apart from this, very happy where I am right now, so I'm not sad about this. But it's um there's a stigma to it, right? And and running a you know a company into the ground like you just described, and I'm I'm a little bit paraphrasing now and making my own to interpretation, is a substantial failure. But it's yet a failure, and it's also been done before. You know, I mean it's been done before, mistakes have been done before, mischarg many successful founders have, you know, crashed one Marc (19:22) Yeah. Paul (19:23) or more companies before they did something that actually stuck. So what is it that you can't take this? Sorry. Marc (19:27) That's true. But I Yeah, but I think it's like no no no, all that is true. I think like but the phenomenon I'm I'm talking about is just the distancing of it. Like I think like like when it's so big and so cloud it's just like, you know, when it's a small failure, you can own it, right? When it's like a medium failure, you can own it, right? When it's like fucking self destruction, right? Kind of things, I think everyone runs away and uh and tells themselves different versions of of their own movie, right? And that to me is is is a is an interesting kind of example of that. And and yes, founders I think are able to wrestle with failure better than others. They have to, right? Because and salespeople. Like those two those are the two I think that that are most used to failure. Paul (20:11) Although I would put the salespeople in the in the f in the first bucket, tell yourself a story why the person didn't buy and what the reason was Marc (20:18) That's right. Paul (20:18) and s et cetera. And and actually, you know, a successful founder in the second one, because it is a form of resilience. And I I I disagree Marc (20:25) That's right. Paul (20:26) with you that the bigger I think it depends on the person. You either obviously it's harder to own up to some big shit and some people are lucky enough never to have you know, done a failure, which also means probably they have never tried doing anything. I mean to be able, you know, to to create a big dump of shit, you have to you know, you have to eat a lot. You know, you have to actually move something. You have to be founding a company, running a company, doing something. Marc (20:58) Is this like an Austrian motivational s for I love it, you know? Yeah. uh Paul (21:03) No, I you know, now that I have a dog and I saw her shit yesterday, and I was like, okay, maybe we need to, you know. Sorry guys, this is Marc (21:07) Ha my cat. Paul (21:11) very plastic. This is not the idea, but you know what I mean. It's like in order to fail, you have to also you have to achieve big, you have to have achieved something big before, right? In a sense. Marc (21:21) That's right. That's right. this is making me think Do you think like s failure is all the more bitter once you've ta tasted great success? Paul (21:29) absolutely. Marc (21:29) and and tying it to our by the time you're in your forties, very often you hopefully knock on wood, right? You've had some type of career success that that that feels validating. and so you start to believe in yourself, right? I think a little bit more. You we often call that we know who you are, right? And Paul (21:47) Mm. Marc (21:48) like and your own capability, your own th and then you suddenly you reach your side, and then when you when you hit a failure that's like well of the kinds that we're talking about, like like that I think shakes people to the core. And they often think like that's not me. Like that's not what happened, right? And so that that's my kind of pop psychology thesis, but I think that's really interesting. Paul (22:14) Uh mine is a bit I think that we often don't learn how to fail. And and because Marc (22:23) That's really interesting. Huh. Paul (22:25) if you think about who talks about this, right? I mean you you look at lots of athletes from a very young age, and when I look at my son, you know, he already knows way better than I how to fail. I mean he's ten and I'm forty five. You know, I I remember when his you know, he had his fur his tryout game, you know, for for the team he plays in. Uh they lost, you know, big times the first time they ever played together and so on, you know. And he cried bitterly, you know, for five minutes. Marc (22:54) Mm. Paul (22:56) And then he shook himself off and it was like and I said, Is everything okay? It's like, Yeah, fine. I was just really angry. I lost, but it's okay, it's a game. Sometimes you lose, you know, um And we you know we didn't play well and so on and so on. And he hates losing, but he loses a lot. But he can shake himself off and he gets this. Because that's in in sports, that's what happens. I mean, you sh try to shoot on a goal, you hit ten times, uh, you miss nine. You know what I mean? You miss five times. You know, that that's what it is. So Marc (23:24) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (23:26) they learn that. And I think and I think you know, we talked about Scott Scott Scott Galloway before, and um and I I think to remember he also said that. A big problem of the generation of of of young men, especially growing up now, is that we forgot how to fail because we get pampered through our childhood, we get Marc (23:43) Mm. Mm. Paul (23:44) pampered through an educational system. And then the first time we fail, we we we we don't even, you know, want to ask out a woman. I think that's his example. Then we go into online dating where we also fail and so on, and and you get all these no's, and think of yourself maybe or about myself. I mean, when Did we learn to fail? You know, really learn to fail. And someone said, Hey, you know, whatever. That's fine. In school, it d you don't have a system that teaches you how to fail. I mean, it fails you, right? You fail, you fail. Ciao. You you Marc (24:12) Right. Totally. Paul (24:13) repeat the year, right? And so on and so on. I and I can imagine that for many, they serve through a career, they go to grade schools, they've they're told all the time you go to Harvard, you're told that you are the best of the best of the best, and then you go to Goldman Sachs and blah blah, you get a big bonus. And all of a sudden, You know, you probably fail for the first time when you're 35. You've no fucking clue what this is. Maybe. And it's, I think, partly Marc (24:34) That's interesting. That's interesting. Wow. Paul (24:38) true for myself as well. and I think now I'm kind of thinking of our kids, you know, we really have to teach them what that means. To Marc (24:46) Yeah. Paul (24:46) fail, to fall, to get up again. Marc (24:51) That's a solid monologue. No, it's true. I mean, I'm watching my my little son Felix, who's four, right? And he throws himself to the ground every time he loses the ball in soccer, right? Because like it's like someone took the ball and he didn't get it. And I'm like, kid, this is your first journey. You better get used to it. I you know, it's well, maybe this is really about Like what are the type A's, the most the high performers, what does failure mean to them? And how do they process it? And like I think there is a big wave of readers who are experiencing maybe their first big failures, not even at 35, but in their late forties and even early fifties. Which is really interesting to see them wrestle with that up up close and live. And I I don't know if there's a You know, I I I share with you kind of the big themes that I've experienced, you know, when when Paul (25:48) Mm. Marc (25:48) when when you know, I've seen very senior CEOs like like talk about their their reign, you know, and what worked and what didn't, you know, and a lot of um the the processing is um belief in the original idea to um had the wrong people, like and and and some storytelling about timing. But The accountability piece was saying, no, I fucked up, right? That was like my that was my piece. Like I I made the wrong decisions. I did I like I had the wrong team. I didn't lean in like the like I should have, et cetera. I like I just never never uh experienced that, you know, with that level of wisdom until people get in their sixties or seventies in retirement age. Paul (26:35) I i clearly there is, different stages, always like sta mourning stages, you know, when when you go through something like this. And and then with distance I think everything is easier to see because also you have, you know, probably done something else in that case or built something else or had Marc (26:49) Yeah. Paul (26:50) another job and success, so it's easier to talk about that in in hindsight. I I wonder there is also other care characters that would take every mistake very personally. And and and say all of a Marc (27:02) Mm. Paul (27:02) sudden, or every failure very personally, and say, it's completely my fault. You know, I'm and and funny enough, those are not the people who are, I think, successful in business. That that do that too much, you know. You know these kind of people that they there's a failure and Marc (27:13) That's right. Yeah. Paul (27:15) they take all the blame. And it's like, yeah, it's because I was that and I was that and I was that. And and it's the more narcissistic types, uh A's that you described before, I think, that make it in business, uh and and and rush over that. So I fully agree though that in in leadership and in this day and age, always actually, and I think the best leaders were always those who could own up to their mistakes and who understand when they made them. Because and now we go back to our episode forty-eight, right? Remember when I quoted Nicki Lauda, another athlete, who said he he wanted to dedicate, you know, his win to to the losers because he learned most from the losses. And um And then we actually had this uh study that we saw, right? That people tend to learn more from the mistakes from others. And why is that? Because about your own, you don't even know you made a mistake because you have a gloss-up story. But the true high achievers Marc (28:09) God, that's that's really fucking interesting. Go on. Paul (28:12) Do they learn more from their own mistakes because they actually they have the guts and the resilience to look at them and actually learn. And I think that's what's really setting them apart. Marc (28:23) You're putting me in a very reflective mood. Now I'm thinking about all the mistakes I'm not owning up to. Paul (28:28) I also thought before, and maybe that's a takeaway, I'm gonna I mean, and we know this, right? I mean, there's fuck up nights in every cool young startup and so on, but I was really thinking of writing my fuck up book or like a a book of mistakes I made. And in fact, two months after my last job, I sat down, it was this time of the year. Somewhere in Greece on a balcony with a laptop and I wrote down everything that happened in these four years of my tenure. Marc (28:54) Interesting. Paul (28:55) which was also context because I wanted to remember, but it was also very specifically what I thought in hindsight where I fucked up and what are what Marc (29:03) Interesting. Paul (29:03) went wrong and what were the biases and what were the wrong assumptions. I Marc (29:06) Hm. Paul (29:06) mean some were so blatantly obvious uh from from hinds in hindsight that it wasn't so hard. Others Marc (29:11) Right, right, right, right. Paul (29:12) were not, but it was a great process actually. for for myself to write them down. Marc (29:19) Right. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, now I'm craving to do the same. You know, it it's it's funny. The I'm thinking about a lot of the the dreams. I was, and I'll I'll make them real. Like I remember back when I was working at SY Partners, I wanted to to really open a European kind of kind of office for the business, etc. Right. And you know, part partly worked, partly didn't, you know, and I and now I'm just like, God, if I wouldn't back, right? And you know, I was really blaming a lot of the market forces for for I was there's a lot of glossover for shit, you know, was doing, I think, Paul (29:52) Mm. Marc (29:55) if I'm if I'm really honest. And if I had to do it over again, maybe the question I'm asking is like, would I do it differently? Right? And the answer is yes. And if the answer's yes, then clearly like there's some learning, some mistakes to be made that you're not really owning up in your in your Uber narrative and storytelling. Um that's it's It's a it's Paul (30:15) Mm. Marc (30:16) a worthy exercise actually. In and in this moment of change with the leaves changing and transformation taking root all around us, maybe that's the invitation here. Paul (30:27) I think it is. It might And maybe also glossing it up is sometimes part of the process. I I agree with you, but fundamentally I don't think so. Fundamentally, I think it's better you're a bit harder on yourself than softer in these cases. Marc (30:39) You're glossing over kind of metaphor. I know you've you've like divorced from reality, but I've actually I think glossing over is is a really strong tendency, especially in American culture. If I'm really thinking about kind of business culture, like we're we we gloss over like crazy, you know, in terms of careers, in terms of mistakes, in terms of um what happened, et cetera. You know, I can I can remember very often we go to What's the story first before we get to the root cause and the actual data behind it? Paul (31:12) Yeah, and that's why I kinda said On the one hand you have these, books and books and quotes and quotes about how great failure is, but only one out of ten actually owns up to their shit and lives by this. Because there is something Marc (31:22) Yeah. That's right. Paul (31:24) there that we hate talking about failures. It makes us feel uneasy. Marc (31:28) Mm. Paul (31:29) And what do you think about a person telling? I mean, let's be very honest with you. What's the first thing you think? That's a great question. What is the first thing you think when somebody tells you a story about a failure and they're really honest Marc (31:42) Yeah. Paul (31:43) and they really own up to the mistakes they made, and you probably don't know this person, what's the first thing you think? Marc (31:53) You know, I have to be honest. I really respect them for telling them th those mistakes. I don't think they're a loser. Paul (32:00) You don't? Marc (32:01) No. I think I think when I've seen I mean depending like like who it is, but like if I s if I and the degree of uh honesty. Yeah, yeah. All right, Paul (32:09) Depending is whether it's a loser or not. Marc (32:12) right, yeah. If they're not a loser, if there's someone I respect and they say like, here are the things that went wrong when I when I took over this business, right? Like I I and they were really queer and honest about it. Like I really respect that. I think that's really interesting. That means they've done the work for it, right? And they put themselves in the center of that of that story and they're and they've done the reflection piece, right? When when I hear a story of failure and they're like, Here are all the things that here's here's the bad bad hands, uh, you know, the the bad hand I got dealt, you know, when I took over this thing. and I did my best, but blah blah blah blah blah. I mean, that could be true, absolutely, but very often I I more s I'm more suspicious. Paul (32:59) Fair enough. First of all, I Marc (32:59) You're the opposite, huh? Paul (33:00) f I find I find the I find the term lose already funny, right? In this context. Because it frames the conversation and the mindset. No? That's interesting. And I agree with you. If Marc (33:07) That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. That's true. That's very interesting. Paul (33:12) somebody obviously glosses over it, I'm a bit like, yeah, fuck off. You know, what is this? You know, and I I'm trying to Marc (33:17) Mm, mm. Paul (33:18) probe and understand and I'm like, okay, forget this. But Marc (33:21) Mm. Paul (33:21) um I think i what I'm taking away is to be a little, you know. maybe more attentive and listen more to to what people say when I talk about this because I fully agree. I I I really respect that. But obviously I mean I think you have um someone in front of you that then has failed at something. And I think it's still not properly accepted in the business community to have people that fail. I remember if I had gone if you go to a board and you're like, hey, you know what? Um I'm hiring this person and you know and and he got or she got fired from their last job. You're gonna Marc (34:06) Mm. Paul (34:06) have a difficult you know, a difficult thing to sell. Marc (34:12) Yeah. That's right. Paul (34:13) Your board, right? You're gonna have to say, you know, but they learned from it and da da da da da da da da. Um, and I think that's that's the problem. That's really part of the problem. Because nobody would say, Marc (34:24) Mm. Paul (34:24) yeah, great, that's a person who failed and actually learned something. Again, Marc (34:28) That's right. Paul (34:28) my nobody says a small means a small majority only. I find that's really interesting. With all the Marc (34:36) Yeah. Paul (34:36) investment we've done in that failure culture, blah, blah, blah. Which by the way, a lack of a failure culture, also in small things in a company, and I've I've experienced this, is as you said, the result is the finger pointing, is the Marc (34:49) Yeah. Paul (34:49) always finding a fucking excuse, is the worst thing that can happen to you in a company because the company never learns. It never learns. Because you make Marc (34:57) Mm. Dude, you're dropping like wisdom bombs today. I mean, this is true. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Because you've you Paul (35:03) Yeah. I I I know because I had that. I mean we dealt with that. We had a I we had a I remember that we we came up in the end with um some kind of you know uh v I don't want to call it values, but because we we broke it down to concrete behaviors and one was uh to stop the finger pointing because that was something that was really rampant at one point. Yeah, you couldn't get a fucking answer. Everybody would tell you a different story of why this failed. He she yeah, everybody would uh in turn in circles. Marc (35:31) Right. Right. Paul (35:32) And that's the biggest obstacle of learning and and and and advancing. And it's really fucking Marc (35:37) Mm. Paul (35:39) interesting. Marc (35:41) You know, I think I think your your board point and hiring point is is also precise that people don't want to tell stories about their failure, right? Because because then it's gonna impact their their career, right, in a big way. Paul (35:53) Exactly, because someone is out there who doesn't think that's a that's an okay thing. Marc (35:57) Huh. So so it's systemic i in the in as much as it is emotional. Paul (36:01) I think it's systemic and I think it's also a bit generational to be honest. I don't wanna age discriminate now. But I gotta say that I've seen this most in not just middle-aged old men like us, but really old men. You know, Marc (36:14) Yeah, yeah. Okay. Paul (36:15) the the type That came up in the in the business world of the 70s, 80s, and and maybe early 90s. That's a difference there. And and this was like elbow and only the you know the strongest survives and so on. I've also met some that didn't think like that and were quite illuminated when it came to to thinking about failure and and you know. deeply human side of work and I've seen others that had unbelievably narrow mind when it came to this and to the human Marc (36:43) Mm, mm. Paul (36:44) side of things, you know. Don't show weakness. Marc (36:46) Fascinating. Paul (36:47) Weakness is bad. Da da da. You Marc (36:49) Yeah, yeah. Paul (36:49) know, this kind of type of thing. Marc (36:51) Yeah, but but but you're pointing out on the source code. No, it's true. That's true. Paul (36:55) but maybe it's fading out. Marc (36:57) Well, you know you know what's funny? I wanna point out an anecdote here and maybe it's a good way to close just to to as a proof point. Years ago I was crafting company values, behaviors, you know, um for for a Varch company um in France. And one of the values we had is like grow together, fail together. Right? Something like this, right? He's Paul (37:20) Mm-hmm. Marc (37:21) like I love the first part. I'm not putting fail on any values. We don't fail we don't I'm not I we don't we've we might fail here, but I'm not I'm not And let having that word enter um our value system. And Paul (37:35) Mm. Marc (37:36) he struck it out right away. And yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's it's an anecdote. Uh Paul (37:40) And what did they put instead? Marc (37:43) it was like it was grow together, learn together or something like that, you know? And just softer. Yeah. Paul (37:50) Fair enough. If that's a way of doing it, I mean it's okay, yeah. Or you think it's not okay. Marc (37:54) Yeah, yeah. I mean the principles were there. No, no, no. It's just interesting. It's just like it's just like he saw it is like not on this company, right? Well we have that. We never it's win. And you can buy you learn on your way there, you don't fail on your way there, right? Like like you might fail like a mini fail, you know, small small low lowercase F, never big. And I thought that was just it's just an interesting way in. Paul (38:18) my god, you know, now that I think of failure again, I'm I'm I'm gonna take this thing away with me. I'm gonna write down failures again of the last two years, because I haven't done this in two years now this exercise. And I'm gonna start with the meat with yesterday's meat, because this is still Marc (38:30) You could also just have clo have clo with the mead. I was just about to say. Paul (38:36) giving me giving me chills, you know. I'm I'm um I not over it yet. Marc (38:39) You c I was gonna say you can have you can have Claude, you know, just just plumb all our idiots of the week and you have a book already. uh Paul (38:47) Actually the glossop story would have been, you know, Claude fucked it up because he told me the wrong thing, but I mean obviously there was a human in the loop and I was the human in the loop and I was the idiot there. He all right. That was fun. Marc (38:51) Yeah, that would be the that would have been the gloss up story. That that is that is that is really funny. It's a good metaphor. All right, Betty. That was fun. Paul (39:02) Thank you.