Sorry in-laws, I’m in Papua New Guinea | Ep 63

Paul (00:00) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you are new to this podcast and it's very unlikely because we are at episode sixty-three, this is the podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you are in your prime, a time that some might call midlife as well. And you will hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shaped us and continue to move us. And today We talk about something very interesting, and that is in-laws. A topic, Marc (00:32) Woo! Paul (00:34) yes, that moves us indeed, and can move you. you know, in the best and in the worst case. In any ways, we're gonna dive into this. But before we start, let me just quickly introduce ourselves. I am your co host, Paul Fatinga. I am calling in today from beautiful island of Mallorca. I'm an entrepreneur, former executive, father of three. Marc (00:58) Never stouts at asshole. He's like, I've always like Zach Paul (00:58) And it sounds like I'm an I I'm I'm an internal vacationist, you know. And I'm not actually. Marc (01:04) Mm-hmm. Paul (01:05) I'm working really hard. usually based in Vienna. Marc (01:09) You're d you're doing you're doing a lot of inner work in in Mallorca, I think. Yeah, yeah, I can s I can see the difference. Paul (01:12) I am in fact. I am. I am right now. And yeah, Mark, please. Welcome. Marc (01:18) hi. thank you. Thank you. I guess I'm the other co-host, Mark Winter, based here in beautiful New York City, where it is an unreal fall day that we're having. And also Paul (01:30) Looks amazing. Marc (01:30) an artist, entrepreneur, father of two. Delighted to be here and to get in this topic. I think we're gonna learn a lot about each other and our favorite type of archetypes. It's a lot of fun. So stay tuned. Paul (01:42) Let's dive into it. Mark. Marc (01:45) What's up, buddy? Paul (01:46) How's it going? How's your week been? I mean looks Marc (01:49) It's been Paul (01:50) your background looks fantastic. Marc (01:52) You know, hey. Paul (01:53) that's probably the best of your week so far. Yeah. Marc (01:55) It is. Well, it it's a it's a good metaphor for the week actually, 'cause it you know, it's been we've gotten a lot of I would say bright signals of I think of a good year the good year that's gonna happen to close. And I don't know, everyone's just sort of coming to me at the same time on a friendship level, on a work level. So Paul (02:15) Nice. Marc (02:16) I feel like there's good energy here, you know? Paul (02:19) Can you sum up your week, in a Terminator and an idiot or idiotic thing of the week? Marc (02:25) Yes. So look, I'm gonna give the terminator to the friends of mine that decide to celebrate with me for my birthday on Friday. And I'll tell you why. Like it's a rare thing to these days to create a forcing function where everyone just kind of shows up, and my birthday was obviously the byproduct. Everyone knew friends they hadn't seen for a long time were gonna be there. And Paul (02:52) Nice. Marc (02:52) It was it was awesome vibes. And I'll say, you know what? We we ended up going to this this bar Tentbells, which I think you I took you there once to. It was like a natural wine bar. They had really good oysters for a buck Paul (03:05) Nice. Where? Marc (03:06) addition on right on orchard and stand yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it's a really nice place. We ordered this actually, Paul (03:10) yeah. No, I I remember. Very nice. Great place. Marc (03:14) this incredible magnum of Pinot Wa. From the Azas, which was like, I've never seen a bottle like it. It actually looks a little not that dissimilar Paul (03:20) Ooh. Marc (03:23) than the the water you're drinking. It's sort of like kind of almost a real cone shape. You pour it with two hands. Yeah, it was very kind of great vibes Paul (03:27) Wow. Wow. Wow. Marc (03:31) all around. So that's kind of how how I closed the the the week. The idiot is me, hands down. I at work decided to step into an old model of business and working that is not AI related or AI driven. And yeah, and I was just like, Paul (03:49) I was wondering if you're gonna say this actually. Okay, g keep on going. Marc (03:54) Why is this so hard? Like I felt like I was operating in twenty eighteen or whatever, right? not using modern tools, dealing with like lovely clients, but were just frustrated by by and I had to really roll up my sleeves and I was thinking like God, this is what I was trying to avoid when I launched my new business, and here I am in the middle of it. And I did not feel very smart. last week, though it it does have a happy ending today, nonetheless. Paul (04:23) No, here we go. That's that's it. Happy ending is all we all we Marc (04:25) What about you? Paul (04:26) wanted for. I gotta tell you, we haven't talked for ten days, I think, and that's too long because I am doing so much stupid shit within ten days that I could feel a whole episode about the stupid things I did. And you Marc (04:37) I would love I would love to do that. Paul (04:39) know, we should do that because you know, so much that I actually bought Marc (04:41) Stupid shit that Paul does. Paul (04:43) a book at the airport, How Not to Be Stupid, you know. Marc (04:48) By the way, you were stupid for buying that book already. That's the first joke. Is it useful? Paul (04:52) That's the first joke. The second one is that I don't know, after a weekend of I don't know what and a long Monday, for the first time in sixty-two times I really dropped the ball and really forgot to upload our episode Tuesday last week. So that's the very Marc (05:05) gosh. I noticed, by the way. Paul (05:07) first time. but anyways and and and and then there's many other stupid things. I mean, yesterday I went for a hike and I mean there is a reason why it says, you know, you shouldn't, you know, don't go Prohibido il Marc (05:23) yeah. Paul (05:24) passe. And then yeah, well I kept on going obviously. So I had to crawl over I think five or six piped wired fences and my knees and my whole legs are completely scratched up and bleeding. but it was a really fun hike. That was also another idiotic thing. I could tell you so many more even today. I mean exactly. Marc (05:39) Wow. Trespassing, buying dumbass books, what else? Paul (05:45) No, but also leads me to my terminator of the week. You know, I'm I'm calling in from Mallorca, which is beautiful. I'm spending a week here, which first of all is already I'm determinated for allowing myself to do this, I think. Yeah. Excellent Marc (05:58) Excellent idea. Yeah, exactly. Paul (06:00) idea. Second of all, today I drove on a motorbike north in the mountains here on the west side, the Tramontana. And already on the way there, north, I saw on the left this beautiful vineyards. I was like, what the fuck is this? So on the way Marc (06:15) Mm. Paul (06:15) back, I like I passed him again. It's like, no, no, I'm gonna turn around. I go in, it turns out to be a really small vineyard, fourteen hectares. She told me everything about it, and they had a little tasting. I mean, I bought two bottles of wine, who's gonna drink them now? I'm here for three more days. But anyways, I'm drinking one now. So to the fact that what I'm drinking is a gorgoyasa kayette, whatever this is, Marc (06:36) Nice. Paul (06:36) an autochthonous grape from Mallorca, very light, drinked, chilled. It's not like Pinot, it's more like a Gamay, she said. What do I know? But Marc (06:44) Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. No, I know that grape. Paul (06:47) Beautiful place, man. I s I maybe I put the picture in the in the podcast. It was unbelievable. Mountains, fantastic. So, I mean, lots of idiots, but also lots of Terminators. Yeah. Loving Marc (06:56) Very cool. Nice. Paul (06:59) it. Marc (07:00) I'm gonna add one more thing, by the way, that I saw just for our listeners just to see, which I cannot get out of my head and just hearing you talk. I saw the Elizabeth Holmes documentary. You can see everything. If you anyone has ever heard about it, it is three hours long and it is by far the craziest movie you're gonna see in years. When it comes out and it will, 'cause it's gonna win a gazillion awards, it might even win the best picture thing. my wife and I we watched the nine o'clock show and we were done but a little past midnight and we were we didn't miss a beat all screen. And it was that it was that that's the endorsement of the week. So if you get a chance to go see it, Paul (07:33) Wow. Wow. Okay. Marc (07:37) you do it. Do it. Paul (07:38) our topic today though is very is very good. and I'm gonna blow your mind in a second is in-laws, right? But I mean, it comes for a reason. There is a big holiday coming up in the US. Marc (07:49) That's true. Paul (07:50) to start this topic I wanna give you an amazing a a really, really amazing statistic. can you Marc (07:56) god. Paul (07:57) can you are you s are you sitting because it's it's really awesome. You know? No. Listen, Marc (08:00) I'm sitting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (08:02) there is a a study by a person called Orbuck, twenty Marc (08:05) Okay. Okay. Paul (08:07) six year long study of married couple, and this study concluded, amongst other things, that when he's close to her parents, the divorce risk is twenty percent lower. Okay, so yeah. When Marc (08:21) Yep. Yep. Yeah. Paul (08:23) she is close to his parents, the divorce risk is twenty percent higher. Marc (08:29) No. Paul (08:31) Yes. Isn't that awesome? Marc (08:37) Mom, dad, I'm not coming for Thanksgiving. This is to save our mar my marriage. Paul (08:43) Exactly. This I could have just actually saved your marriage. Not that it needed saving. No. And not that we wanna Marc (08:47) Wow. I mean yeah but Paul (08:53) go into anything personal, perjure ourselves, Marc (08:55) No, no, no. Paul (08:57) or get ourselves in the biggest trouble of all times here at all. Not that anybody listens anyways. But yeah, isn't that interesting? Marc (09:07) Super interesting. Huh. Do you think that's okay, what do you think the drivers are of that? Paul (09:16) well, I wanted to ask you that. Marc (09:18) Of course. Ask me the questions. You know, I think like I'm gonna put my experience aside because I want to get to that in a sec. I imagine that It's the mothers. It's gotta be, right? The mu the mothers make like it's totally it. Yeah. It's totally that. Yeah, that's right. Wow. Paul (09:28) Yes, it's about the meddling. Exactly. It's about the meddling. It's about the meddling. It's a it's about the meddling into the affairs. Which is why I mean this would be an episode, I guess, and I would probably that's a takeaway up front, where it would be interesting to have a a female perspective, right? Because Marc (09:46) Yeah. Paul (09:47) you know, we have two males here. But anyways, I mean nevertheless, it is an interesting one. Marc (09:54) That's a fucking stunning one. And now that I think about it, right, I mean, gosh, you've you've just given me so much ammo, just with that stat alone. I mean, honestly. Paul (10:02) So you can't wait for Thanksgiving. Marc (10:04) Yeah, I I can't wait. I was like, Mom Paul (10:09) Okay, listen, but I wanted to ask you, so what's kind of your you know, what's what's your thought on the topic? And I wanted to lead us in with kind of what's the best case scenario and the worst case scenario. But I also know that you have kind of made your mind up around Marc (10:24) Yeah. Paul (10:24) some you know, some consulting view thinking strategist, thoughtful, Marc (10:32) whatever. Paul (10:33) whatever leadership. view on this topic. What what's yeah, this is my my gamet is talking. Marc (10:36) Ha okay. All right. G good. Have another glass have another glass of wine. Exactly. Listen, you know, I think first of all, stepping back, I I it do in laws have the same negative connotation that they do in in the US as they do in Germany. And in Austria, sorry. Paul (10:59) Yeah, I can I mean it's always a bit yeah. Yeah. Marc (11:02) Yeah, like I gotta go see my in laws or like, you know, my in laws are you know, this kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (11:05) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exac it is it does. Yeah. Marc (11:09) Right. Paul (11:10) More more negative than positive, let's put it this way. Yeah. It's not when you Marc (11:12) Yeah, it's fine. It's more negative than positive, right? And I think like Paul (11:14) say this when you say the word everybody goes like ha like when you say tzuckerwatte, you know, like cotton candy. Marc (11:23) Well, you know, I think like it's it it I know, it's it's something we all wrestle with. Paul (11:31) What a downer this word is, huh? Like you got a really excited room, you should say Schwieger Elton. Everybody's like, what? Marc (11:39) Sri exactly. God, who wants that? Paul (11:41) Like okay. Marc (11:43) you like to me, it was always a it's one of those hands that you can't control, right? You can fall in love with someone, right? You just like keep your fingers crossed. You're like, please make them fun, toler or at least tolerable, you know, something like at least some Paul (11:59) Mm. Marc (12:00) of that. And I think, you know, to answer your question, I mean the best case scenario to me is that you have I mean like dream. Like who do you want your dream in laws to be? Like it would be like, I don't know, Richard Branson. Like that guy seems pretty cool. Like, you know, extreme wealth, a lot of fun. Like someone who could you can Paul (12:20) He could also be a total ass, you don't know. Marc (12:22) Yeah, he could be. Well, he seems like a great guy. Like of all the billionaires, he's always the one who's like Paul (12:24) Okay, fair enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (12:26) more thoughtful, more creative. Like, like Mark, you want to play tennis with me? You wanna fly a plane with me today? You know, I'm bored, like let's go, you know. Paul (12:35) God. Just suck such a sucker for experiences. Unbelievable. My dream father-in-law is different. It's just actually a guy who likes to drink a couple of glasses of wine with me and that you can hold a decent conversation with and laugh your ass off and have fun. That's my that's my mark. And I gotta say, I've had that most Marc (12:52) Yes. That's that's that's a strong baseline. Paul (12:57) of the most of the time in my setups. Fathers that I could Marc (13:02) In in your Paul (13:03) drink with. Yeah. Marc (13:04) okay. and have you I'm trying to think. I I have had that and st have have definitely the drinking part now. have you ever had you know a a a father of your girlfriend you were dating where you're like, Fuck no, this is not gonna work 'cause like if I if I spend Christmas with this guy, I'm gonna shoot myself. Paul (13:30) No. No. I haven't. Marc (13:31) Really? my God. I've I've had two where like, you know, I was you know, I would sit around the the dinner table from them and I was only like nineteen and I was like, This guy's a loser. There's no way, right? I can't like I can't like spend Thanksgiving with this guy. Like we're we're like this. And like the mom was and I was like the Girlfriend was really sweet, et cetera. Just it was just really hard, you know? I'll put it that way. Paul (14:03) Yeah. So no no I I to be honest, I I was always lucky there. Yeah. Marc (14:05) That's so that was to me like worst case scenario. Worst case scenario is like you're y someone you don't respect. And I'll tell you and I'll tell you why also because that it's always gonna affect your like if you're even if you like the girl, you're like, How did you come from that? You know? It's just an interesting Paul (14:18) But is that worse than he not respecting you? Marc (14:23) yeah, actually that's even worse. That's true. Thank you for identifying that. Yeah. Obviously Paul (14:27) 'Cause that Marc (14:28) unfathomable to me, but yes, like like that's that never happened. Exactly. Paul (14:33) That never happened. It's like Yeah, because I I think you know that's kind of the cliche you always see in in movies and and stuff, right, on TV. It's like that the the the father in law that looks upon, you know, you know, their son in law thinking you're not good enough for my daughter. Marc (14:52) Yeah, there's that great comedy, Meet the Fox, right? Or Meet the Parents, Meet the Fox. Yeah, yeah, it's they made three movies on that, right. Paul (14:56) No. Amazing. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You know. It also reminds me of this thing I saw on Instagram the other day. I don't know if I said it. It's a guy working out, you know, pumping iron and he's saying, you know, I'm not training to look good. I'm not training for longevity. I'm the father of a daughter. I'm training for dude. Did you see her dad? You know Marc (15:19) Ha ha that's good. Yeah, yeah. Paul (15:24) That's kinda what I'm thinking but that's the father of a lot and the father a lot I wanna be is like Marc (15:29) Just prepare yourself. Paul (15:30) Exactly. No, but I think that's the worst. I think that's the worst if you have an another father figure that you have to live up to and that looks down on you and and Marc (15:37) Sure. Sure. Paul (15:39) and doesn't think you're good enough. I think to me that would be the absolute worst case. That paired with an alc anti-alcoholic vegan that doesn't like to have fun Marc (15:47) Ha ha ha ha ha. Paul (15:49) is my absolute Death Star scenario. To the point where I was seriously question, Marc (15:57) Yeah. Paul (15:58) you know. What the fuck is happening and why I'm I've fallen in love with the daughter of that antichrist, you know? Marc (16:07) This is great. This is a this is a great episode. I love this already. We're just really we're really gonna get to it. Okay. So so I I I went through your best case, worst case scenarios. Well, the mother's side. Paul (16:13) Okay. We got the father's side covered, you know. Marc (16:18) my god. I mean the mom's side is best case scenario is you know, I know the best case scenario, obviously, is the mother in law just wants to can't wait to take your children and babysit for them. They're ch they're chill they're chill with you, like Paul (16:32) Exactly. Exactly. Marc (16:35) like full on partner. You know, bonus points if you're an incredible baker. Paul (16:38) And and cooks like a goddess. Marc (16:42) Yes, cooks like a goddess. Exactly. You know? I'm trying to think of an archetype like that out in the world. Yeah. I don't know. Paul (16:44) Obviously, obviously. To me that's number one. Yeah. And also, you know, I I will say something that might disturb you. ideally she's also hot for her age. Marc (17:01) I knew you were gonna go there. I was just you know, I was thinking I was thinking, Paul (17:03) No. You know why I'm saying this. Marc (17:06) of course, because that's what your wife will be. But like I was thinking, Paul (17:09) Exactly. Marc (17:10) is it like Nigella Vasa? You it's just like who's like the you know, the the mid fifties, sixties kinda, you know, but still has that wonderful homey kind of vibe. Yeah. Paul (17:17) Yeah. So so that's kind of the very best case. Marc (17:20) I agree. Paul (17:22) have to th I also thought about this today and I s I have to say all my you know mothers in law were amazing cooks. All of them. Without Marc (17:34) Mm. Paul (17:34) and through I mean I had Middle Eastern it South European I don't know Japanese I had everything there. It was amazing. I mean I did to the world of of of mothers in law. Exactly. Marc (17:45) Sounds like a buffet when I hang out with Paul (17:50) my god. Yeah, that was great. So to me that's that's probably the most important thing. That's a absolute best case. Yeah. Marc (17:57) And the w the the worst case is and I think women are really good about this, is just like also disrespect, but like passive aggressive like disrespect like things things that really always like finding the the things to needle you on and find your weak spots, which is yeah. Something crazy. You can't cook. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Paul (18:12) Yeah, and can't cook. And always complain about shit, you know? Always complain about the things. I guess I guess I would be most pissed if she always complained about her daughter, also, you know, in a sense, because complaining about me, I guess I'm so immune from my mom that I don't care, you know. If a mother Marc (18:31) Yeah, it's fair. That's fair. Paul (18:33) figure complains, I'm like kind of like, you know, whatever. But if she really pissed my partner off, that would piss me off. Marc (18:41) Totally. Totally. Paul (18:42) Because that makes my life miserable then, you know? Yeah, I agree. Okay. Marc (18:45) Yeah. I agree. Well, here's here's I w I wanna indulge you in a different methodology in this conversation, which are which are three three types of archetypes here. Paul (18:56) I'd love that, Marc (18:57) One is like what would you rather have? In laws that are archetype one, completely out of your st sh shit, right? You see them like once, twice a year, like on on a holiday, et cetera. You're respectful to them, they're nice, et cetera. Great. Option two is like the super active in-laws. You know, they're into all the aspects of your life, but you know, they're they're happy, they're kind of they're guiding you kind of in their way, et cetera, you know. Then like option option three is like in-laws that are like let's not call it light, like let's call it like light touch, you know, not too heavy, right? Not too not too not too active, right? Like you kind of Do some big trips with him, etcetera. But no, Paul (19:45) Hmm. Hmm. Marc (19:47) that that's really it, you know. So really really say why. Paul (19:51) I'm into number three. I take door number three. Yeah. Yeah. because that's also how I like my parents, you know. Marc (20:04) Ha ha ha ha. Paul (20:09) So why would I like my in laws closer, you know? In a sense. Marc (20:13) No, some do. I don't know. So so so Paul (20:16) You know, there's a fun fact actually, which b both of us can't relate to because we both live closer to our parents than to our in-laws. I mean you much more than I do, but still, Marc (20:27) Mm. Yeah. Paul (20:29) is that actually on average is the other way around that you spend also with the grandkids much more time with the in laws as a man than the other way around. So we would if we all lived Marc (20:38) Interesting. Paul (20:39) in the same city or country which we both don't, we will probably spend more time with the Indo. So maybe our our view of this topic is completely skewed and biased and fucked. To the positive, because we don't see them that much, you know. Marc (20:51) Well yeah, I mean it may be. Like so so it's so interesting. So for my wife it's the flip side, right? Like for for wife, it's door number two, which is absolute heavy touch. Families into everything, you know, she's she's No, but that's just no no, I'm just telling what she's experiencing. Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying what she would choose. I think she Paul (21:03) Yeah, but is that her choice? So I mean it's not so much I mean is it it's how it is. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Marc (21:11) would choose three. I experien Right right. I'm telling you, but I know, I know. Paul (21:13) That's what I said. I I choose three. That's what I said. Not that I yeah. Okay. Marc (21:18) And I I I think I'm I think I would choose two if it weren't my if it were the Richard Branson family that I that I long to covet. In rare exceptions. That sounds great. But Paul (21:35) Ha ha. Marc (21:36) you know, and I I think I'm gonna go with three as a safe bet, but I will say that my lived experience is one. Which is which is interesting. Paul (21:46) Mm. Marc (21:47) Like I you know, I I I don't have it's funny, like my in laws are they're very nice people. I respect them a a lot. Obviously I think they they raised an amazing woman. I see them once, twice a year for like three, four days. We have a very Paul (22:05) Yeah. Marc (22:05) nice time. The father's like the father is, you know, he's not the funniest guy in the world, but he likes to drink good wine, which is nice, you know. They're a little bit quiet, they're a little more reserved, you know. Paul (22:12) That's good. Mm-hmm. Marc (22:15) And the story I tell myself about that, I was like, Okay, well, that's just kinda how it is, but also like that's it's not a bad hand to have either. Like as as a it's like light touch, way, way wor infinitely way worse, you know. Paul (22:26) It could be much worse. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I gotta say, I mean listen, my in laws also I mean my ex in laws, I don't know how you call them actually, but they're still my my kids' grandparents, live in a different country. Plus they're ten years older than my parents, which makes a huge difference, I think, in in Marc (22:47) Well Paul (22:47) in that case as well. And and I mean my parents as in laws are also funny because they live two hours away, but they're always travelling so they never have time to look after their grandkids. I you know, whatever. They also have Five others or four others. So they're always busy with the younger ones. So I guess they've they've done the deeds on mine. but when she hits the fan, both of them, my parents and her parents, are always around. And I remember that, you know, when I broke Marc (23:15) Mm. Mm. Paul (23:17) my leg when you know Filippo was a month old. My my then mother-in-law came to Vienna and cooked for me like she's like you need iron I ate steak and also puko every day for two weeks. You know, I mean I got to the hospital. I was like I was like they could have I don't know done what, you know. It's insane. You know, it was the form of my life, you know. so Marc (23:40) Right, right. Paul (23:41) so she really fed me up. So so that's kind of the but it's light touch unless some some shit hits the fan. They kind of all live their lives, you know, if you need something okay, but maybe not too much. That's kind of how I'm used to it. Marc (23:52) How did your how did your relationship with your in laws change when the kids arrived? Paul (23:58) Not. Marc (23:58) What was the difference? Really? Paul (24:00) No. Not much. Marc (24:04) I I experience my laws as being a lot more I would say curious like conscious of my health, they're like, okay, like, you they were really thoughtful to to understand like how I was doing. Yeah, now you're the f now, Paul (24:16) Huh. So l now you're the father of my grandkids, so now I actually care. Marc (24:20) now, yeah, now. Yeah, exactly. If you get hit by a bus, there are a lot more people besides my daughter who will be upset, you know. And I think that's that's that I've noticed is kind of a profound difference, you know, in in how they showed up in our lives and and guide us. Paul (24:34) That's nice. But you know, to to get a bit more to get a bit juicy here, it's like that's nice, Marc (24:37) That's that's nice. Please. Paul (24:41) you know. So I mean w n without calling any names, but do you know really, you know, like horror stories of in laws? And and Marc (24:51) I was gonna go there. yeah. Paul (24:53) and but let's go touch you know, let's g get a glimpse into into the in law hell and then let's talk about how we think you can handle this. Not from our experience because we were blessed apparently. But I can tell I mean who wants to start with stories from hell? Marc (25:12) You y w why don't you start? It sounds like you got a good one, a juicy one. Paul (25:14) No, actually I I wanted to ask you, but okay, I can go. So I have a story from that that could be a new segment. Stories from hell. Marc (25:21) huh. Paul (25:23) No, I have a I I know somebody with a very difficult mother in law that Yeah, that's rid I mean, is is is actually is is a a female friend with a mother in law that is not easy. Luckily, I think also the husband thinks that she's not easy, but it's really like, you know, making comments, making things hard, making life difficult for those guys, which I find Marc (25:57) Okay. Paul (25:58) to the point that you know, they're kind of like thinking, should I go there, should I not spend time there? What do I do? Marc (26:04) Right, right, right. Paul (26:06) so that kind of sucks. That that really kind of influences their life and and and their decisions on how they spend holidays, how they spend free time. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (26:14) Got because she's that annoying and and like and that in your shit. Okay. well, the stories I have are a little bit more like pronounced in the sense of the or which are like when the families hold extraordinary w wealth and wield that power over the over the relationship to get them to do what they want to do. So for example, I know I know story of you know, a couple, the the the mom Sorry, the wife comes from real means Paul (26:44) Mm-hmm. Marc (26:45) and disapproves of the son's sort of like mid level career and like the wife sort of like hasn't blossomed in the way they thought, wanted her to move up towards like Greenwich and be closer to the family. Like the others was so overbearing they rejected them, right? That and you know, basically threatened them with we like like monetary ramification, you know. Paul (27:08) Like what sense? Marc (27:10) like, they got cut out of the will. And yeah, they just said, No, you're not respecting us, you're not coming to us to where we want to be. Like like we think you're their husband's a loser. Right. Well, it's a well, it was a little Paul (27:19) So like you're actually not making enough, so we are gonna cut you off. Marc (27:23) well, it was a lot of power, right? They're like, we have a home for you, like, well, come here. It was really shocking, you know. But I think what that was was just a symbol of a lot of pent up rage and and rejection, you know, that I mean, all the money got got rerouted to the grandchildren. And I've got another one too where, their daughter, like married like a wine cook at a restaurant, right? Shock them, right? It's just like groom for something else, you know? And their reaction to that was also to like basically cut them out financially. You know, okay, if that's your choice and we create a fund for whatever if they had kids, that's what'll be. so I know it's it's crazy, like where where people can go. Paul (28:03) That's kind of rough. Marc (28:05) Yeah, well we said how extreme ho stories from hell, that's what they are, you know? What about like Paul (28:08) They are Marc (28:10) what about did you read about what was it, the Beckham's? Basically, Victoria was kind of in theory, it depends whose side you believe, was also becoming an in law from hell. Like she was supposed to design the wedding dress, you know. Then she decided like she wasn't gonna do that. And then a Paul (28:28) Really? Marc (28:28) couple of yeah, that's they don't talk anymore, Brooklyn and and the parents, you know, and it's it's it's really Sad as you think about these in-laws and how they go through. Look at the Royals, you know, picking other ones, you know, Meghan and Harry, pick decide which side you want. and yeah, I Paul (28:44) Yeah, but there it is. But okay. Marc (28:46) you get where I'm going. But ba basically there are all these different manifestations of that. How to overcome them is is really hard. I think, you know, you have when you get dealt that bad hand, assuming that you do, you know, I think you really gotta try to keep option number archetype number one, like a little touch, a few days. And Paul (29:09) Yeah. Marc (29:09) I often think like inventing places to be, you know, during some of those events is an excellent strategy. Yeah, exactly. Paul (29:16) I'm sorry, I have to be in Papua New Guinea that weekend. But no. Let me ask you something because you said it before. It's like if you have parents in law that are bananas, okay? Is it still possible your girlfriend or partner isn't? Marc (29:42) Totally. I feel like I'm a product I feel like I feel like I'm a product Paul (29:44) Or isn't that a strong indication? Marc (29:48) of that. My mother is nuts. Paul (29:59) That's a good point. Actually now that I think about it, yeah. Marc (30:00) Huh? I I I s I swear. I one of the most often commented things that my friends say is like my my wife particularly like so like I've met your mom and this like how did you come out like like this? Like Paul (30:15) Okay, so I think this is this is this is advice number one if we want to give any ever in this show is that don't judge Marc (30:22) Ha ha ha. Paul (30:23) your partner by their parents. Yeah, because otherwise Marc (30:25) No, not at all. Not at all. Paul (30:28) we would have been left alone. or at least Mark would have, you know for good. Okay. Okay. Marc (30:30) I totally Exactly. Exactly. Paul (30:36) Ma maybe actually is even a counterindication sometimes. Mm-hmm just playing with this thought, Marc (30:41) Yeah, I mean Paul (30:42) you know. Because you know the the the the crazier they are, maybe the more you need to kind of fucking readjust and find your own path. You know. Maybe you know also what I find weird, by the way, you don't you find that super wholesomeness where everything is perfect and I love my parents, and my parents love me and they love you and pa ba ba. Isn't that also too much a little bit? That would freak me out. If there was no edge, Marc (31:06) Yeah, I I I I like Paul (31:08) it was just like fucking fluffy flowers shit. I would go. Marc (31:11) I I like a little bit of tension. Yeah, I like that. You know, just a little bit. Paul (31:12) Fuck. Yes. I think that's weird. I think this is this is when when sh you know shit is hidden in the closets, you know, and in the basements. That's where things get really dark, you know. Yeah. Exactly. So okay, okay. Yeah. So the point is what Marc (31:23) Now we're now we're now we're really going for it. They're too nice, they could be really fucked. I agree. Yeah, yeah. Paul (31:30) we're saying is like just whatever, you know, the parents are the parents, your partner's the partner. Basta. Marc (31:36) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (31:38) Okay. However, I think there's one thing that I would like to sh say here. Is like one thing that I've also lived in in in relationships, what I think is important to overcome difficult parents in general, your own and and and the ones of your partner, is that you have kind of crossed the bridge of you know, going from your family of origin to your new family to understand what is the Marc (32:04) Mm. Paul (32:04) priority, you know, and that is not the priority to make your parents happy. but especially then when you have your kids on your own, and that's usually I think when this also happens, hopefully, and that's kind of like the last the last time it it can, is to think, you know, this is this is my priority now, is this family is my partner, is my kids. Even without Marc (32:23) Yeah. Paul (32:24) kids is my partner and is not where I come from. And and that's difficult. I mean it's just difficult for Marc (32:30) Mm. Paul (32:31) me in my life and it's I think it's been difficult for many people I know. And if you have that kind of sorted, I think that solves already a lot, apart from the fact that you, you know, be nice Marc (32:41) I don't disagree. Paul (32:42) i if you share. You disagree or you don't? Hm. Marc (32:45) No, I don't disagree. No, no, I think that's right. Paul (32:49) I guess also when I see friends struggling with you know parents in law or parents, when they share the same view, that's very important. So if they both say, you know what, I mean the person XYZ just behaved like a total you know whatnot, and both say yes and they say you say this about, you know, your mom and the other person about y their mother in law, that helps a lot. You know, kind of a joint understanding of this shit is not going right. The worst would be You know, like a ha like a male partner that always protects the meddling mother. That must I mean I I'm Marc (33:24) my god. Ugh. Paul (33:26) so far away from this because every time my mom would do something stupid, I would like be like, I know this is fucking stupid. Let me let me let me tell her off and tell her that I'm not gonna spend Christmas with them for the next 10 years. You know, and then my partner would be like, Paul, please don't go Marc (33:36) Yeah, exactly. Paul (33:40) there. Because I'm just waiting for this, you know. Marc (33:42) Yeah, yeah, of course. Competitive Yeah you can't wait to be Paul (33:46) You too. We are really we're terrible, actually. We we're yeah. Marc (33:49) Just think you know, I we think we grew up in demanding households. And when you know that built that muscle Paul (33:56) So happy to be gone. Marc (33:58) exactly just so No, we did. Like like you know, we had we w Paul (34:03) With love. With love. Marc (34:04) with love. It w it was demanding and loving, you know, and sometimes that creates a a lot of fierce pushback. Paul (34:11) This is a very revealing episode, actually. No it is. Marc (34:14) This is. You know what's also funny about it? Like, you know, I I think we don't have horror stories, but we're also like, I I think we understand it's a delicate balance, right? It's a dance you're doing with with with your grandparent, with your in-laws. You want to show that you really care for their daughter. You want to show that you care for them because your daughter cares for them, their daughter cares for them. You want to create a warm and loving loving household. You want to respect their tradition. You want to r you know and At the same time, you don't want them in everything that you you have, you know? And you know, it's it's an interesting balance and dynamic, I think you have to do because also like your and let's here's the other thing we haven't really talked about, but but it's queer is like your wife is a lot happier, right? If you have a good relationship with their parents, with their parents. Infinitely happier. Totally, totally. Paul (35:08) Absolut and the other way around, I guess, right? and I mean the the the disapproving thing I think happens way more often, I guess the other way around, with the moms towards, you know, their their sons' partners. And Marc (35:21) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (35:24) and my my mom was always happy with anybody who took me. that's actually not true, but but but but I think, you know, you asked me before Whether anything changed for me when when when I had kids. It didn't in the relationship in in a sense, not that I felt they were like more interested in me or so, but more the other way around. Because when we don't have kids, right? I mean, you Marc (35:50) Mm. Paul (35:50) have your separate lives and whatever, you know, in a sense, right? I don't care so much. I mean, my partner should have their their time with their parents and so on. But if you have kids, I mean these become the grandparents, and grandparents are important, I think, for kids, very much so. So I think then it becomes a bit different in a sense because i Marc (36:08) Yeah. Paul (36:08) it kind of gets to the point even if you had a conflict you would have to put that aside and say you know what you know spend time with them even though I might not align with what they think and how they think but I still think it's important that you have grandparents and you spend time with them. I think that happens Marc (36:24) Hm. Paul (36:25) in a lot of you know a lot of cases. And I I see this also between siblings for example, you know, when nieces and nephews get time to play together wh while the parents, you know, the sisters or brothers or whatever, don't get along so well. And I think that's I think actually that's quite a quite a mature thing to do, to say, you know what, I I would rather, you know, punch you in the face, but you're still the grandparent or you're still, you know, the uncle or your daughter's still the niece. And so I want them to spend time together. I think that's what changes. It it it ups your need for tolerance. Marc (36:58) That's right. Interesting. Paul (37:02) Yeah, so I guess in Marc (37:03) Hmm. Paul (37:04) that sense and that's important. I think that's really important. Because in the end if you don't do that, you take out your own whatever it is, beef you have on your on your kids at the end of the day, right? I mean Marc (37:16) Damn it, Paul. We always sort of circle back onto something meaningful in these conversations. It's a good reminder of why we do these podcasts. Like I I agree. Like it's it's it's it I feel it's now now I'm gonna like reach out to my in laws. But honestly, just because I haven't in a while, I'm feeling like I've neglected that. because I know that when you do that, like it just Paul (37:38) It's hard when they're far away, huh? Marc (37:41) Yeah. I mean it's you could also just send them a few notes, you know? But just be a few WhatsApps. It doesn't have to be a major thing. But Paul (37:48) Yeah. Don't you have a family group? Marc (37:51) We do. We do. It's not like they post much in it either, you know. Like it's just a few things, so Paul (37:56) Hmm. Yeah. Marc (37:58) it's a lovely. But it's just it's a nice method to know that when you put good energy out, it comes back. Paul (38:06) Absolutely. Absolutely. And never judge your partner for their parents, I guess. That's the that's the number one important thing. And the other way around. All Marc (38:12) Yeah, that's true. That's true. Paul (38:17) right. Whew. Hmm. Marc (38:21) This was fun. Yeah. I'm sad I thought you were gonna bring back some horror stories for your in laws, but you didn't. You know, that's that was the one disappointing thing. I was got ready to laugh. Paul (38:28) Dude, I didn't want to get into Hale's kitchen here, you know. I and actually I have to really say, I don't have any. I mean I've had I I've had a great relationship with all of my in-laws. I I I always kind of thought that I was always the perfect Schwigason, at least in in my book and and that I completely projected that. So that's why I think I was always fine. I had fun. I mean obviously I mean I did stupid shit too, I think which didn't get me much love, but at the end it's all good. Marc (39:07) Good. Good for you. Well, till the next time, buddy. Paul (39:11) Till next time.