We're Becoming the Old Guys in the Room | Ep 62

Marc (00:01) Welcome to Guys Like Us. this is the podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you're in your prime, you know, midlife, which by the way, I'm turning 46 tomorrow. It'll be exciting. on this podcast, you're gonna hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shape us and continue to move us. I am your host, Mark Winter, based here in New York. I'm a self conceived artist, entrepreneur, father of two, experiencing sort of a really kind of cloudy fall day. And I'm joined by my co host Paul. Hey Paul. Paul (00:36) You forgot to mention your much younger co-host, Paul. calling Marc (00:39) Ha ha ha ha ha Paul (00:40) in from tranquil and still beautifully sunny eighteen degrees Celsius outside Vienna. I'm an entrepreneur, a father of three, a former executive, and we're gonna talk a little bit about executives later. also a a lover of a rabbit holes and AI. So I am I am Marc (01:01) Yeah, yeah. Paul (01:02) the team you're gonna talk about in in a minute. So Marc (01:04) Anyway, I would love to tell you that we have a very special episode today. I've been fresh off of the West Coast and I'm here to talk about the theme on everyone's lips intergener generational leadership. Paul (01:19) Everyone's been talking about this. Everyone. Marc (01:21) Everyone's been talking about So Paul, how are ya? How was your week? Paul (01:29) Man, I'm gonna tell you my week was intense. I was just trying to think of what would be my terminator and idiot of this week. I I gotta say, my terminator at this week is me and this group of friends who who got together two weeks ago and kind of joined forces to look at companies, you know, that we want to invest in. I mean, you know, that's what I've been doing in the last nine months, and it's super fun. It's actually super fun to do it in as a group of three somehow, it's a really nice dynamic. Marc (01:59) Yeah. Paul (02:00) and I love it. I'm having lots of fun, so I can you know it's kind of having a team again. Is a little bit I mean, we're all, you Marc (02:05) Mm. Paul (02:06) know, people the same age, so it's not covering our topic, or maybe it's the antithesis for that, funnily enough. Marc (02:13) Mm. Paul (02:14) and my idiot, I mean my idiot is a jokingly one. I really don't know why you need a car with rockets. I mean, although I love this YouTube clip, Marc (02:21) Ha ha ha. Paul (02:22) I and I can't believe it's not AI. And apparently it's not, but what the fuck. Marc (02:26) I don't even know what you're talking about. What are you talking about? What is this? Paul (02:29) You know the the Tesla the new Tesla Roadster was presented and it went Marc (02:33) Okay. Paul (02:33) up a ramp upside down and then flipped and landed because it has Marc (02:36) No way. What? Paul (02:38) some kind of rockets inside. I'm gonna send you the lily it's nice. It's it is very cool. It's it's very useless, but it's very cool. I mean they do also have a v video where it jumps over other cars, which Marc (02:42) I have to admit that's really cool. That sounds that sounds amazing. You know cr credit to Ivan. I mean Ivon Ivon is a nerds nerd. Yeah. Really. Paul (02:55) is kind of cool. And how about yourself? Marc (02:58) Good man. You know, I came back from one of my classic West Coast trips, which always leaves you a little bit inspired and a little bit shaken. And so so we'll talk about some of that today. Paul (03:07) Mm-hmm. Marc (03:10) you know, I think the terminator of the week, you know, I and not to take this down through a dark hole, but one of my reasons I was out there, I was taking care of a friend who who has was diagnosed with cancer. with that, he got the a good card of a bad hand. And so I was there Paul (03:27) Mm. Marc (03:27) with him for his like third round of chemo. He'll he'll he'll survive, his numbers are looking good. But you know, I'm gonna give Mark my terminator of the week because I think the the sense of humor he had while he was going through it, you know, and what it was and and the clarity of w was kind of inspiring when you see someone who's going through that. Yeah. You know Yeah, Paul (03:46) Wow. Man, that's intense. Yeah. Marc (03:50) I think it's rare it's a rare thing for you to show a friend what you mean what they mean to you. So it's happy to go out and and do that and which is a nice, nice thing. And then the second thing I would add is like it's also a special thing to be with someone when they're processing something like this. Paul (04:07) Mm. Marc (04:07) With clarity and not without the emotion, but you know, when they come out on Paul (04:10) Mm. Marc (04:10) the other side and can share that and that was cool. So Paul (04:13) All right. Marc (04:14) that was a deeper terminator, but it's a good one for for for cheers to Mark. And I think Paul (04:18) You have a ladder, idiot? Marc (04:20) yeah. Do I have a lighter idiot? The amount of taxi drivers who don't know what they're doing. I got into like four. And they're like, wait, where Paul (04:31) That is light. Marc (04:32) am I supposed to go? I was like, dude, don't you have Google Maps? Right? And they're not even Paul (04:36) But isn't that also the kind of place in the world where they use the most robotaxis? So they're not kind of putting up a proper fight, are they? Marc (04:42) Well well I well in San Francisco. Exactly. I was just thinking like God like what is the what is like you're you're asking to be replaced. And you know, the funny thing is like, you know, Waymo's now took over Wift in in market share, right? In Paul (04:55) Mm-hmm. Marc (04:55) in San Francisco already. So my guys like at this rate, you know, going through it's it's Paul (05:01) May I think the good cab drivers already left, you know? but one thing's for sure they didn't come to Austria. but anyways before we get Marc (05:05) True. Paul (05:10) started into the topic, I want to reintroduce a a segment that we have underserved in the past. And I Marc (05:16) thank God. Paul (05:17) want to share with you my glass of very simple Zweigl, which we've had on this podcast before. It's called Mein Klan. I just found it, it was the only thing I pretty much had. it's very nice, I gotta say. So Marc (05:30) Really? Paul (05:30) Cheers. Yeah. Marc (05:31) Cheers to you, man. I if I didn't have a few more I'm I'm I'm drinking unfortunately New York's water. but k all right, Paul (05:40) I mean we gotta bring that back. Marc (05:42) all right, all right, hold on, hold on. We are gonna bring it back, but I've got another story to tell you. I'm gonna hijack this a little bit longer. So you know what winery I went to when I was out in Sonoma or w Napa? I went to Opus One. And you know, Opus One is is the, you know, Rothschild and Mondavi c thing. Paul (05:56) Hmm. Hmm. Marc (05:59) Do know what it goes for a bottle? 600. Recent release. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (06:03) Okay, that's the edit of the week. Thank you very much. I don't wanna hear any more. Marc (06:06) So today's topic, Paul, is something I'm really excited to dig into with you. So Paul (06:13) Mm. Marc (06:13) this is straight out of the West Coast, right into your glass of Zweigeld. And the topic I want to talk to about is intergenerational leadership. Paul (06:27) Ooh. Marc (06:28) Now, when I say that to you, what does that mean? Paul (06:34) What do I think about I well, I mean If you ask me this, I mean I I'm just now semantically making an interpretation of what you said, is either young people leading old people or old people leading young people, but essentially people working together that are of different generations. Marc (06:54) Yeah, that's I think it's a like a fairly good start. I wanna unpack that with you because I think what I w really want to think about is like do you and I as as being potentially on either side of that. Paul (07:07) Old? I was about to say. I mean I'm not I feel a bit uncomfortable with this whole topic because I'm not sure where I'm at, but I'm I'm I'm afraid I am actually. Marc (07:15) Well we're we'll get to well w we'll get to that. you know, Paul (07:20) Okay, okay. Marc (07:21) but I mean I will say like it was just dropped like the w there was a an article how one of the potential successors of Microsoft is is just thirty eight years old, you know, I don't think he's I think he would be on the young end, you know, of like versus society for that. So that's Paul (07:36) Wow, that's insane. Mm. Marc (07:38) which is insane. But maybe I'll I'll ground us into this. It's like if you think of like leadership Traditionally passes down, you know. And this is Paul (07:47) Mm-hmm. Marc (07:47) a model of leadership that passes back and forth, right, in a way. Around a Paul (07:52) Okay. Marc (07:52) an aqueer wisdom thing. And so why is this a thing? And so this is very much related to the bit of the age of AI piece here. And so the thinking is we have all this extraordinary tools and this extraordinary technology. It's developing so fast and what part of the bottlenecks towards unleashing its full potential or twofold on the on the older side of the older generation, this is gonna make this part's gonna make you feel good, Paul, is that they have the wisdom, but they don't have the fluency of the tools. Paul (08:30) I do. Okay, Marc (08:31) Like Paul (08:31) yeah. Mm-hmm. Marc (08:32) great, like so like you're like, but you're you have wisdom, you know what good is, you have the the life experience to teach you context, teach you taste, etc. Blah blah Paul (08:41) Yeah. Marc (08:41) blah. And on the younger side, you have neither of none of those things, but what you do have is the intuition and fluency of these tools and also the what I'll call the beautiful naivete to dismantle like like like liberate yourselves of traditional paradigms of how work happens and just start like you know building shit as you think it could or should be, you know, as a generalist. Paul (09:08) Mm-hmm. Marc (09:10) Does that resonate, make sense? Just Paul (09:13) Totally makes sense. Marc (09:15) and so the thesis is like, could we merge the two? Forget like the middle layer for now just as an experience. Like like what does it look like Paul (09:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (09:23) for 40, 45 to 50 year old executive, right, to be paired with a 22 your old executive, entry level person, right? Obviously assuming that they're still bright on both sides, especially the the younger person. But what was it look like to pair them t aga together against executing some discrete and queer outcomes? and so the thought is is that you have the wisdom exchange between both the tools and the and the context and the taste would go full would be kind of a fluid system between the two. So the top executive know what the outcome is, right? The most senior person is like here's the thing we want in Greece, et cetera. The younger person would help build and design the best way to get to that outcome using the the tools, et cetera, that are on hand. And with that inner play and inner exchange in place, you're able to move much faster. Paul (10:25) And so you do this then for two or three years and then you can kick out the older person because you have sucked out all the knowledge and experience of this person into the tools and the young person and off we go. Is that the idea? Marc (10:36) No, actually I don't it's it's not actually to replace the most senior people. I think 'cause I mean, and we'll get to the other like topic of like, you know, there's stuff that will never really go away, like relationship building, like this the Paul (10:48) Yeah. Marc (10:48) senior presence and that shit that senior people have and wouldn't trust younger people to go do. But the thought is like instead of working through a more of a top down approach, like, hey, we should be using AI, let's automate, you know, et cetera. It's like, no, like we're gonna get the s most senior person's hands dirty as well with like really defining some of the career signature outcomes for your organization that feel good and working towards that with the your your the younger generation that is can help build that faster. Paul (11:26) Okay, because the first one kind of like when you first described it, it kind of sounded like exactly this. So this is a a very cool story to bring people to share their knowledge and then to kind of get rid of them. On on the second thought, and I just wanna quickly interject with an an an epis real life episode here from my end. I was on a call with a person he had recently lost his job, you know, in his early fifties, middle management, you know, good career. And it's like it's incredibly hard to find a job when you're fifty-three. And he's like, I don't even care so much about the pay, you know, I mean I just want to do something meaningful. And and and there has been always and I think this is increased and fueled now, or this fire is even hotter now, you know, with the use of of the technology at hand, the this craziness for for for young talent in a sense or young people Marc (12:19) Yeah. Paul (12:19) and or on the other hand, not so much that but the the avoidance of quote unquote old people, which we are, Marc (12:27) Mm. Paul (12:28) I mean in fact much closer to than young people. So that's one thing that amazes me. And I would like to ask you a question about this later. on the second one, you know, I think that makes total sense because I I I do think that what we have going for us, having you know had a you know, having had work experience of 20 years plus, is the fact that we have that. But if we can't use the tools and work with this stuff, and you you know we've talked about this a lot, I have, I think it's also worthless because you need to understand how you apply it in the context of of of the the ever-changing environment. So if also a young person at your side is helping you do this, and this is the best way to do it, right? I mean you have almost it's like you have a tutor that sits down with you, looks over your shoulders and is like, what the fuck are you doing here? I mean, Marc (13:21) Mm. Paul (13:22) this takes an hour. I can show you how it's done in two minutes. Right. Marc (13:25) That's right. Paul (13:25) And then maybe that also happens the other way around when these people actually go in a real meeting and meet people and the old person can or the older person can say, or more experienced person can say, Hey, what the fuck are you doing here? you know? You actually shake hands and don't put your finger up your nose and I don't know what, you know, Marc (13:40) Right. Paul (13:41) and eat all the snacks. And so is that the thing or I mean, because otherwise I don't kind of get to Marc (13:43) Totally. But but I I also want to be well, it's a little bit different because I also I it it's a it's part of it, but I'm I'm trying to push it a little bit further. So it's this isn't reverse mentorship, you know, as well. Like let me you like back back in the day, it used to be this is this is leadership. So back in the day, you know, and I'll get to what I mean. So reverse mentor Paul (14:07) Sounds like bullshit to me so far. Marc (14:09) Okay, well, thank you. Let me let me finish my point. And then we could talk so Paul (14:15) No, I'm I just wanted to, you know, kind of l you know, raise the bar a bit here. Because it Marc (14:19) Well no no I lo no good. Paul (14:21) no. Marc (14:24) let me here's what I mean. Reverse mentorship is like let's let's let's let's role play for a sec. Paul, you're the senior executive, I'm the more junior person, right? like, hey, Mark, we need to increase our sales by twelve percent this quarter. Outcome. Like, we we either need to I need to understand where we who's most latent in our relationships that we need to dial up, where our deals are, How can we deals that are stuck in our pipeline? How do we can best accelerate them? And how do we together push forward on putting a new offering out that will get people really excited? Okay. So from there, that's you as your role as a senior executive, right? The outcome that you need to deliver. Together, we're gonna say traditionally you would have a very logical process of making that outcome happen with Mark by your side. He's gonna say, Okay, well, here's the fastest way I can pull everything we know about your sales pipeline in a super interesting way and pull insights on that that would normally take you probably weeks for to tradition traditionally do that. Paul (15:34) And as a result, have reverse mentorship. To me, it sounds a little bit like people that at that are sitting in HR departments of some big tech companies who get bored, try to find a new topic to talk about. So they find something old, they put a new label on it, and then hopefully they pay you to actually explain to them that this is a new thing. Marc (15:52) No, but but if you're both held accountable for that, I think then it's very interesting. So like it's not it's not that you're held accountable, like Mark's also held accountable together as a team, you are to have to deliver that result. And what that forces is a different type of engagement and working, which it hopefully is really i is an interesting thing. It's not that you're I'm just happening to be on your team. And I think that's kind of an interesting shift. So you you you spread the accountability across the two. I can spin out reports that are like, you know, here's what's top of mind from salespeople. Like what I'm using this example and you have the wisdom to say that's shit. Who told you that? That's a hallucination. Like like that's crazy. Right. But like I like this. Let's go deeper here. And you know, we're learning from that. You're seeing from the speed of what I'm building. And I could say like why Do we just talk to salespeople? Why don't we talk about to the broader system across your organization or this industry? I can pull from this Paul. I never really thought about that. And then we just kind of build it that way. and I find that really kind of intriguing. It's it's I don't think it's an HR thing. I think it's an interesting model of moving faster. Paul (17:06) But why do you find it intriguing? Marc (17:08) Because you're closing two bits of wisdom gap. Like I think the the wisdom of that I, Mark, the younger person have of of of growing up now of three, four years with these tools and playing with them and getting sharp with them and and making that my natural inclination. You Paul, the marriage of of your thirty years of the business, you know, having your sales contacts and and the wisdom of what you know what works. And bringing those two together, I think, is really powerful. Paul (17:41) I understand, but to be honest, I don't think it's much more than a pipe dream. Marc (17:48) Well let's talk about that. Paul (17:49) Because how would you how would you get out twenty, twenty-five years, thirty years of hierarchical thinking and working of the senior person not thinking he just got a young assistant? And To be honest, also vice versa of the young person. And you can say you can hold them both accountable, blah, blah, blah. You know, but that's all nice in theory, but I don't think that works out in the field, you know, if if you if you know what I mean. So because what you need to do for this in order to work this is to rewire and reprogram all of actually both people's, I mean, understanding of how how you know hierarchy and work works in this environment. Maybe the 22 year old or 25 year old. doesn't have that much wiring. That's fair, right? I can only think that all the leadership and responsibility gets into his head and then th that goes wrong also. So I find this is this is I'm not I'm not sure that that can actually work. And and that's that's my main part there. Marc (18:50) Well, w so h here here's a question for you. Who do you think would be the bigger blocker, you or me in this scenario? Paul (18:58) Me being the old person. I think it depends very much on the individual, but I think there's obviously more me, you know, in this case me, because there's more patterns and more things learned already that needed probably need to be unlearned. and I think on on on the younger account there is also quite some of that and and and it's a bit of a more volatile environment. So I I could think of great, now I'm I'm also responsible. You know what? What does that actually mean? What does this responsibility and leadership actually mean for me? You know? I mean, am I Marc (19:32) Mm. Paul (19:32) now the boss of everything? You know? I mean, we we all know, I mean, I don't know if we all know, but I know the the the hybrids of of getting too much responsibility early in your career. And the first time you got this, and I'm sure you have too, you thought you were, you know, the king of the world in a perfect environment, right? That all the you know person and on at your side can somehow level that out. But I think a lot of things have to go right for this to go right. Marc (20:03) I I agree that the older person will be the biggest blocker. And then I would say this is the thing that will save your job moving forward and preserve it is to accelerate the the path to this organization being in the AI era. So you won't have a choice, first of all. The second thing I would think about is Paul (20:26) That's always a great argument to bring people on board is brute force. No, it's great. It's great. I mean it's great leadership there, yeah. Marc (20:29) I'm not just saying no no, it's not perforce, but but well No, I I mean, yeah, obvious look, there's a lot of things that can go wrong, obviously. To your point. Yes, there's the institutionalized patterns. Yes, there's hierarchy. Yes, there's like you, Paul, feel like I've worked my way up to SVP of whatever of sales, whatever, and this punk ass kid now she's gonna be on my team to share my stuff. Then I think there's the magic of like, hey, all that shit that you wanted to get done, Paul, or move fast, you can now like It's gonna help you move so much faster and better with the help of this like with with the help of this of Mark, you know, and this kid that's gonna annihilate that. Paul (21:09) hear you I'm asking myself why does this person not already know how to use these tools and what to do. Is that the only way to do it? To get there? Marc (21:19) I I think it's the fastest way might be the logic. look, there's no question here that A lot needs to go right for that to work. You know. But we also know that like you know how many programs are about like, let me upskill you in AI, let me teach you about go through this workshop, go through this kind of inspirational t you know, talk, try this. Paul (21:41) No, no, it's true and and I mean Marc (21:43) It's all fucking bullshit, right? So you're gonna wait two out two years for your senior executives to know how to build shit, Paul (21:47) No, I agree with that. I agree with that. Marc (21:49) et cetera. So instead of doing that, pair them with a fucking expert, share the accountability, right? And go. Paul (21:55) And and and and why is the shared accountability so important? Marc (22:01) Because otherwise it becomes a like it's it's a I think well it's it's a method of two. One one is that you're kind of leveling out a little bit of the respon you're trying to strip away some of the power that you have, Paul. Like, you know, in terms of seniority, etc. Like we're both equally responsible for this. the second bit is though you were more compensated more. the second bit is like these are the tools are so powerful they can mask. No, no, no. Because they're so powerful and and that they can mask what great is and and I could potentially, you know, feed the tool all your reports and all your thinking already, right, as Mark, right? To like get really upskilled so I can build something that thinks like you, that pushes things like you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I think the objective here is like by by creating a more dynamic, even team, we can you're you're moving away from let me coach you about X or coach you about Y, but let's just Rodic ruthlessly focus on the outcome. Paul (23:15) I I'm just trying a bit I mean, A I'm the devil's advocate here, obviously as you can hear, and B I'm now the the senior executive here. It's like I don't see your point. If you give me the res I've been I've been in the field for thirty years. I've had P and A responsibility for fifteen. You're now telling me I'm sharing this accountability with, you know, someone else I've been I mean, I will do everything I can and if you give me resource who knows how to use this stuff. I mean, you can share accountability. What's the fucking point? I mean, obviously, this has always been my job to use the resources at my disposal in the best possible way to get this result in the fastest and and highest quality. So what has changed? Or do you actually need to motivate the younger person to come on my team? Because otherwise they all go out and vibe code, I don't know, whatever. if that's the thing. Because I don't I don't see that. I I almost find it emasculating in a sense. Right? Because Marc (24:07) Hm, interesting. Paul (24:09) And and and if I if I if I go into this persona because it this is what we've done all of our lives, you know, g give people a team, a tool, a system, a process or whatnot to get the best outcome. What's different Marc (24:24) Yeah. Paul (24:24) all of a sudden? Marc (24:26) I I think it's the speed and I think it's how quickly the junior person can perform like a senior person. Well, like for sure the younger person is gonna love it because it's access to power, it's it's access to make my stuff great, it's like access to Paul (24:39) Totally. Totally. Totally. Marc (24:43) all the great things that you're gonna do. The senior person Paul (24:47) And that could be reason enough, by the way. Because what Marc (24:49) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (24:50) you don't need is you don't need your average Joe twenty-two year old who knows how to use ChatGPT. Right? And if you Marc (24:57) No. Paul (24:57) want that fucking world class AI artist, I think you need to give them more than entry level job. And I and if that is the reason, I'm fine with that. Marc (25:10) Yeah, but I think what what we're trying to also figure out is this a model that could scale in certain pockets. So of course you can have the young boy genius, you know, paired with you know, a top executive and let's see what magic happens, right? I mean, sure. And I think anyone would buy that. That's the great Hollywood movies, you know. But this is more like on a broader scale where we have, you know, classic senior executives that are using AI as basically advanced Google search. And then you have younger generations like, no, these are great tools that I can build, you know. Like why's the system look like this way? Like, you know, and broader generalists Paul (25:45) Hmm. Yeah, fair enough. Marc (25:48) are coming in. Like, could we make that as a general practice of how stuff comes together? I don't know. That's Paul (25:58) I think we've had tools that we used in the past to deal with transformations like this, and we should lean on them as well. And we don't need to reinvent the wheel. And it kind of sounds to me like a reinvented wheel. Marc (26:09) Well, let me break it down for one last try and just see as an argument piece. Let's see if you agree with this. Okay. Do you agree that I don't know, AI is breaking the apprenticeship ladder? That basically b b base Paul (26:21) I don't know what that means, but let's say yes. Marc (26:23) b basically, yeah, like the tool's so good that you know the reps of judgment are built like, you know, the traditional apprenticeship level of how you get done is okay, great. Paul (26:27) Yeah, no, it does, it does, it does. Yes, yes, one hundred percent. Yes, yeah. Marc (26:32) Do you believe that expertise can now run in both directions in a very unique way? Paul (26:37) Absolutely. Marc (26:38) Okay. Do you believe that while information is more cheap, right? Like the wisdom, what which I'm calling is actually now really expensive. Like or the and Paul (26:49) Also. Marc (26:49) judgment. Paul (26:50) Yeah. Marc (26:50) Okay. Great. and would you and to that end, would you believe would you also agree that the younger generation has access to the wisdom to the information and the this elder generation is the is the wisdom, right, in this case. Okay. And would you also agree that to move fast faster in the AI area where things are developing so quickly, perhaps a new model would be required of working. Paul (27:22) Could be. Marc (27:24) Okay. You may disagree that the answer is an intergenerational leadership as as as as the answer, but the given these conditions, Paul (27:31) No, I think what w as more the more I think Marc (27:34) the the like like what would the answer be to this in a way that feels true? Paul (27:40) Listen, I think I think as a ma you know, I am a allergic to the buzzword bingo and and to say, you know, this is now the greatest new thing. At the end of the day, I agree with you. I don't think what's enough is old hierarchical team structures where you have two or three levels below an executive like that, because that w wisdom or that knowledge of the younger generation will never filter up and inform maybe inform something, but never teach or upskill anybody, right? So actually Marc (28:10) Right. Paul (28:11) to make tag teams, you know, that attack a problem, or task Marc (28:14) Yeah. Paul (28:15) forces, like they said in the past, you know, that's also not unusual where you cross hierarchies or you put people from different departments together, etc. It's been there in the past. If you now wanna go and call this intergener intergenerational leadership, I'm totally fine with that. I think there is a there is a there is a value to that. What and and period to sense. What I am more And it if it also brings us to keep more of that more seasoned talent or even hire it? Because that would have been my question from before. Exactly. When have you also hired Marc (28:46) Yeah. That brings me to your fifty three year old example. Like you suddenly I need those people. Paul (28:53) more experience? You know, in the in your past, I don't know. I mean, you were also in an industry where you have a typical kind of funnel, right? in consulting where usually you bring on Marc (29:00) Yep. Sure. Paul (29:03) young people. I was in industry when I was in industry, I did have my Again, quote unquote problems, you know, hiring much older. And I wonder if you had that too, and I wonder if going into why w we've all had these problems, or the other way around, working with very young people, we could also uncover what is the challenge apart from the the the bullshit raider, you know, that kind of jumped with me. Marc (29:30) That's where I okay. So this is s so this is this is where I wanna have a this is where I want to have a little fun. So I I was hoping we would align on the concept much faster, but I love that you pressure tested and made me squirm a little bit. But if we entertain the concept, I think and this is crazy, I'm more worried about working with the younger piss ass generation, like that's gonna think that it knows everything much faster and much quicker, than working with the older generation in this concept. that has the the wiz you know more comfortable in their life experience of dispelling their wisdom. And the reason for that is it's not just because you know, everyone, I don't mean be like the middle-aged guy, like complaining about, you know, the younger generation, like like like everyone else does. I just think that these tools, because they mask intelligence and information so well. And you know, and with after like week four probably in your job, it's gonna come out like, you know, quite quite proper. I think it will delude a lot of these the younger generation to think it knows more than it does. And that's gonna be really fucking frustrat that's we're gonna learn so Paul (30:38) No, that's what I meant also before. No, no, I agree. Marc (30:41) fucking frustrating. Paul (30:43) I mean I I was just thinking of why in in a funny way I think it is more the way we communicate that is different across generations and I let's put it in a work context, right? I mean I find emails still a bit old fashioned in a sense. I still think emails in some cases are very useful. And i to me it is a little bit I think to me The email is what the letter was to the generation generation before me. If I receive an email, I was like, I get an email, yeah, because otherwise I get a WhatsApp or a Slack or whatnot. Yeah. So I don't know Marc (31:23) Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (31:25) what my email, the letter, my email is to the next generation. And maybe that's it's it's a slack, you know, because the rest is a voice. I have no idea. But the funny thing is that these ways of working together, to me, they annoy me. When they don't work the way I'm used to. And to me, that was the biggest blocker sometimes. And then the rest, I think, is very much in your head and is how open you are to new things, how open you are to learning something new and doing something new. To me, the biggest blocker in hiring experience always was too much experience. Marc (32:01) Yeah. Paul (32:02) Because I want people to be able to think out of a first principle and use what they know. as a a source of information for the decision, but not just say, I've always done this like this. I mean, obviously this is a to an extreme, and now we're doing it like that. Because that I find is terrible. Apart Marc (32:22) Yeah. Paul (32:23) from some jobs where you just need execution, execution. I always said that the person that sends the containers to the ship and across the globe should have probably done this for the past twenty five years. And there's no reason to reinvent reinvent that wheel, you know, to be fair. Or Marc (32:35) It meant the wheel. I agree with that. Paul (32:36) an accountant. You know, but even these days, right? I mean you could put all of this into AI. So I always thought that it really takes a special curious and open mind, the more experience you have, to be open to do things in a new way. And to be fair, I I feel it with myself too sometimes that I'm like, you know, I've done it like this, it worked, fuck it. And that's not the right thing. And that's kind of also my call out to everyone in our age and older is to and we said it before, I mean with this technology and that is different. than to previous technologies to get direct I mean to really, really learn it. Sorry. Marc (33:09) Okay. Yeah. So so so no no no. I I a hundred percent agree with you. And I want to illustrate I think what we mean and certainly what I'm talking about through a very real world example. you're gonna indulge me for a minute when I tell this. There's a great podcast that was released this week by the New York Times called it's about a ma mathematician talking about his experience of open AI solving the millennium problem. Paul (33:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, we talked about it also in the previous episode. Marc (33:39) Do you were you were you aware of this news and what happened? We did, right? Yeah, okay, great. So it's a podcast that talks about, you know, he's a phenomenal mathematician from Cornell and the emotional experience he had in response to like, you know, these were supposed to be human problems, the holy grail of mathematics. And not only did this tool solve it, but it solved it in an elegant way. And the elegance of the of the of the equation is is was equally stunning, right? Than than these models were in the past. Now, how did it do it? And how it did, I think, is an interesting metaphor for what we're talking about. So we have these skilled mathematicians, right, that like will think about approaching the millennium problem in this way, in their their one bit of pillar of expertise, right? And he's like, the way it solved it is it combined two fields of mathematics, discrete geometry, and I forgot what the other one was. But like he's like, but Paul (34:32) Not that we I would understand that. Marc (34:34) but he's like, they're so unrelated, right? But But like you would never think about putting those but the but the tool open AI, they brought it together to arrive at a solution and wrote it elegantly. And I thought that was actually a really interesting metaphor for what the future of this thing could be and also kind of a little bit what we're talking about with leadership. You have a discrete these super senior mathematic mathematicians who have 40 years of experience trying to solve the world's hardest problems, right? And then you have the naivete of like, like a tool, but like also like why won't you just do it like this? Like why is it always thought of like this? We're not like why don't we look at much broader in our expansive broadset to arrive at a solution and you can get something much more elegant. So I thought it's it's just an interesting metaphor of what this could be and and and the roles these two could play together. Paul (35:27) that's beautiful. And it's also a little bit back to the episode we had a a few times ago, right? Where I said it's about connecting the right dots. And that that's why I think also in in finding Marc (35:34) Yes. Right. Paul (35:35) new ways, AI is gonna be more powerful than us, because that's what it does well, is connecting those dots, right? Marc (35:39) Right. Yeah. And maybe what I was like missing in the kind of preamble for this is like I I would really welcome as challenging as it would be, I've assuming like these are smart twenty-four year olds that you know be partnered with as executive, like like leaning into that beautiful naivety to find a pattern of like, let's just build something that doesn't just rely on a sales function or a marketing function, but from a systems thinker on steroids. And I think that's just an interesting method to do. And I feel like I'm self-aware enough to know that after 20 plus years, 30 plus years in of working, that you know, I'm still I'm trained one way. As much as as I like to think I'm a generalist, I'm not. and before your brain gets shaped, right, and molded in a specific direction at that young age, might we lean into that more broadly as we think about how we can get to these tools a better outcome. Paul (36:37) to what you said, Mark, I I think this is beautiful. And what it really makes me think, and I mean this is not a relevation, right? Like hardly anything on our podcast, but is no how much we need to be working on opening the minds of everybody, especially us and and every generation Marc (36:57) Yeah. Paul (36:58) beyond. And I think we do actually very often underestimate how open it is already. And I think that's a huge prejudice. and why it is so hard for for people that have crossed a certain you know age to find a job because there's a huge prejudice out there about the the openness and I don't think it's in in many cases not a lack of openness but a lack of opportunity and and and and system. And maybe intergeneral leadership is the one. that can fill you know part of that void and and I I hear that and I I would go with that because and and in some cases there is no openness and it's difficult and maybe it there's also closeness because of fear and so on. So as we all know and we've said before it's a huge transformation project, but mainly in our heads. And everything Marc (37:48) Yeah. Paul (37:48) that can support that is is more than welcome. To me, I have to say I myself was guilty of prejudices and I was Also in in many cases, yeah, life and and the people that then came on board or were brought on board by others really proved me wrongly, you know, and and that's great. So that's i I would say in the older generation. In the younger generation, I think all my prejudices were always right. No, there were n neither were they, to be honest. Yeah. Marc (38:17) That's a good that's a good way to close. Yeah. Paul (38:22) To that it was mo mostly I think and w the the things I saw, but probably I was the same when I was younger, you know, is you know, there's a a slight sense of entitlement, I think, in in in some of these especially the the very good ones. you know, everything needs to come quickly and needs to come easy, but maybe we were the same. And that's just the process of of of aging in a job, you know, that that Marc (38:48) Totally. Paul (38:49) you kind of get there. And and maybe also buddying them up with with someone that is twenty, twenty five years their senior is exactly the right Marc (38:57) I mean i i if I could select Paul (38:59) thing. Yeah. Marc (39:00) if I could select the twenty to twenty four year old person I'm gonna partner with and do a vibe check, I think I could be really excited by it. in practice, like gener like it could be really fun. Paul (39:11) No, me too. Me too. I'm gonna show them how this AI thing works. Marc (39:20) I mean, here's what I know here's what I know about you, Paul. Like Like this is the best part. I know that if you were paired with a twenty two, twenty-four year old kid, right, who's like trying to like show you like how to do it, you're gonna stay up. yeah. You're gonna be you're Paul (39:31) Totally smoked them. Smoked them. Marc (39:33) gonna cancel your plans for the next three weeks. Exact yeah. The the there's no way. Exactly. But d exactly and s and maybe and maybe Paul (39:35) Everything. I I'm gonna smoke them out of the gate though. They will quit in two days. There's no question. I will I will take this personally and team Team There is no I in team, but there is me, you know, said the great Kobe Bryant, and then I'm fully with that. Marc (39:56) there they're look at you. Like you're already fired up. I th you know this is show not tell of why this is a great idea for you. If I ever wanted upscale Yeah. All right. Paul (40:05) mean I would I mean it would be a terrible idea for me. Anyways. But yeah. Marc (40:11) Listen, this was a lot of fun. I think I got you a little bit there, like close to the concept. Good. Paul (40:14) You did. You did in the end.