The Blueprint for Creating Traditions That Actually Stick | Ep 37

Paul (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, this is the podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you are in your prime. Some people also call it midlife. But in any case, you will hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships. Marc (00:17) Ha Paul (00:23) maybe fun nights out, in short all the things that shaped us and continue to move us. And as one of those things, and because it's Easter Monday today as we record this, we are going to speak about traditions today. We that is, yes, in a fun way, in a fun way, we that is myself, Paul Fatinger, I'm based in Vienna and Marc (00:40) my god. In a fun way. Paul (00:50) Outspoken traditionalist I would say on some things and quite the opposite on others also a former CEO and executive and a divorced father of three and I'm joined by my Awesomely handsome and fun co-host Mark Winter joining me Exactly not from New York today, but over to you my friend Marc (01:07) He's buttering me up, exactly. No, I'm in Düsseldorf at the moment enjoying the beautiful sunshine of North-Weiden-Würzfallen. And I'm a modernist by nature, think, that likes to honor traditions, but we'll get into that in a bit. also entrepreneur, father of two, though it seems like eight this week. Paul (01:19) All Marc (01:33) Traveling with kids is another one, but excited to be here with you, Paul. Paul (01:35) It's another one. Yes, fun to be traveling with kids, by the way, we can you guys if you want to listen to that episode, one of our first ones, I think it was in a single digit, our third or fifth one or something like this. No, but Mark, amazing on Easter Monday. Have you have you did the Easter egg hunt already with your kids that are four and what is it? Four and one and. Exactly. So Easter egg hunt check done. Marc (01:51) Mm-hmm Four and one and a half. Yeah, so it's Done and you called me asking that look I already have these little the lint The Gold has a the chocolate bunnies next to me we did actually was really funny because I woke up and we were all you know, we're sleeping late because we're we're on New York time and My mother-in-law was like we got to get the kids out right away, right? Because it's about to rain Paul (02:09) Lint chocolate bunnies, yeah. ⁓ Marc (02:28) You know, so they had to do the hunt. And I guess the birds were already sharking some of the chocolate eggs, you know, in the field outside, flying in and swooping them. But it worked. It was a nice way to start the day. was good. yeah. And you? Paul (02:43) That is amazing. yeah, and we settled on this topic today. Well, we also did that Easter egg hunt on Saturday already, which is kind of a 12, 10 and a seven and a half. And the seven and a half one really still believes in the Easter bunny Osterhase. And she was very excited. The older ones clearly not. ⁓ But yeah, but they still like the hunt and stuff. And we talked about it because I Marc (02:51) And how old are your kids? They're still doing it, right? Look, they're... Paul (03:11) did an Easter that was very non-traditionalist And I got really touched by this. And I told you this morning that it really felt like creating a new tradition that I really liked. And so we decided to kind of talk about this today and ask ourselves the questions, why do we even... have traditions, know, what are they good for, what are they not? Should we create traditions on our own? And if so, how and why is it so difficult? And also how does this all relate to our kids? And that's kind of what we are going to talk about today. Marc (03:39) Mm. Pretty good. Before you beat us down this road, or maybe I'll lead us down this road, can I tell you a funny little secret? Which is now public. Do you know that when we celebrate Easter at my parents' house, my mom still hides presents and Easter eggs for me to find? She can't let it go. Paul (03:48) Please go ahead. Yeah. my god, but now this is a great question already. Can you not let, she not let it go or you not let it Marc (04:06) Ha No, I'm totally happy not to go through the woods of my house to find Easter eggs. And she even puts like $20 in the plastic eggs. Oh yeah, along with the chocolate. Paul (04:19) Really? This is very interesting. It's very interesting if you think of the psychology of this, because on the other hand, I refused to, decorate the Christmas tree, up until the age where I had kids myself. So I would be at my parents' house, and we'd do that very late, right on the 23rd, and they would be like, you know, we're gonna... Marc (04:32) Mm-hmm. Really. Paul (04:43) decorate a Christmas tree, would you help? I was like, clearly not. mean, it's not my job. It's the Chris kind who is doing this. So I was 33, I think. I was 33 the first time I ever decorated a Christmas tree. All right, but okay, we are jumping the gun here. Marc (04:57) Wow, wow, that's amazing. But jumping the gun, I thought, know, while we're talking Easter, some fun Easter traditions, but you know, okay, Paul, so as a way of leading into this conversation, would you love to share with this group and audience ⁓ a tradition that you dearly love, deeply love, and one that you've been introduced to? Paul (05:17) I would love to, but would you mind going ahead? Yeah. Marc (05:22) I have to go first? ⁓ Look, I think as an American ⁓ growing up with European parents in the US, by and large, my upbringing was kind of European in a way, ⁓ set in American context. I will say I love ⁓ the Christmas tradition of opening presents on the night before the 24th. versus the 25th, which is where most Americans are doing that. And I love it, I think I loved it always for a lot of reasons. One, it made us different, and two, compared to a lot of my American friends, and two, I gotta open my presence first, you know? Like while you guys, while you suckers are sleeping, guess what? I'm staying up late and playing with a game. Paul (06:04) Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You win. Yeah, that's a lovely one. That's a lovely one. Marc (06:15) You win, I think one that I got introduced to, you know, it's funny, I'll go little different. right now, my family's decided that we're doing family reunions in late August in West Hampton, you know, out on the beach there. the genesis of that was ⁓ a cousin-in-law from Peru who said, yeah, you know, we're out in my culture. We always get together as a family, you know, even the extended family at least once a year. So here's the date. I already have been emailed it and WhatsApped it, you know, five times in the past week, you know, as she just drives it home. And it's a forcing mechanism of bringing everyone together. It's a new type of tradition that has entered our space and it's something I actually honestly plan around. Paul (07:01) Okay, so these are two, one you got handed down. That's nice. I'm going to be with you on the Christmas one very shortly. I love Christmas. I love the smell of those Wunderkerzen on the Christmas tree. I love the moment, when you walk in, And the first time you see that tree and there's candles and there is all this, and this is crazy. And what I learned today, what is really interesting is that this is also how these tradition, how we remember those traditions is a strong sensory input, right? The smell for me is so, so clearly Christmas. And then there is also a thing that actually I think Kahneman came up with, it's called the peak end rule is that what Marc (07:25) Yeah, Okay. Yeah. Paul (07:48) And what we remember traditions in the best way is that there is a peak moment, a peak emotional moment, and a calm end to it. And so in a sense, Christmas with that peak of here are the presents and then kind of have a nice dinner or something afterwards is one of those. And speaking of dinners, I think what got introduced to me was different types of foods. And I think foods are very important part of these annual traditions. different types of foods by my Italian in-law family who made much better things for Christmas than we ever had. And to be honest, as traditionalist as I am, when someone brings me better food, I'm very happy to swap it very quickly. It's no problem. There's no problem. It's like, yeah. You want better food? Great. Here's some lobster and lobster salad. Okay, fuck it. Marc (08:25) I'm sure. Yeah, exactly. That's the easiest way. Yeah, exactly. Here's some of our age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's some, you know. Paul (08:45) Let's throw away the ham. No problem. Marc (08:45) Fuck it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Have you ever drunk each Barolo of Paul? Exactly. You know, things in the back. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Are you aware of Ornelia? Exactly. Yeah. Just make this an Italian appreciation episode. That's suddenly how you just said, fuck it. ⁓ Paul (08:52) Exactly, yes, goodbye Welsh Riesling, you know exactly. No, but it's not about that. so I was very open to that. But did you have also or do you have traditions that you really don't like? Marc (09:14) Look, think most of them, I think we all had the church tradition, right? I don't think any of us really liked going to church. I mean, that's the easiest. Well, I just, well, I mean, I was just, yeah. I think any bit of that felt kind of crazy. And also, you know, there's some stuff that we do, and this comes actually to an uber theme as we're talking about this. Like even now I read the, Paul (09:20) Yeah, well thank you for stealing that away from me. yeah. Anyways, yeah. Yeah, no thanks. It's okay. No, no, clearly. Clearly. Marc (09:43) Bible story on Christmas, ⁓ which is an interesting one. ⁓ In part because, know, my family's pretty modern, they're not really quite believers in this, they might be spiritual, know, but you know, at the same time, we're like, I'm reading the Bible, which is really just, we're like, what are we doing here, you know? But ⁓ the best version of it actually, I'd seen it done was my Lebanese uncle who did it. Paul (09:46) Me too. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (10:12) And he explained kind of where everything was and gave in the ontology behind the language. So I felt like I got a history lesson versus a religious session. But that's one I'm always noodling on why we feel compelled to do that. Paul (10:17) Nice. Very nice. Yeah, but I mean, to me, it's also the same thing. think there was some church things that I found fun. And when I think about it today, it's the ones where we used to meet friends and friends that we hadn't met in a while. And so we would meet them on Saturday for which is traditional in the south of Austria called so-called Fleischweier, where you go and you the priest. I don't know how you say Benedict's, what is it called? Like the vineyard, all the foods, of the foods and so on. And so lots of people from the neighborhood came and that we wouldn't see maybe in a year or something. So that would be super fun. The boring ones where I had to sit in church for an hour and a half on Christmas Eve at 10 p.m. That's things I didn't like. Frankly, they never became a tradition because we resisted very early on to doing that. Marc (10:58) The benediction, ⁓ notes. hahahaha Paul (11:23) Do you have traditions now in your life where you think to yourself, why the fuck am I still doing this? So are we still doing that? Marc (11:31) Well, you know, it's funny, not really, but it's a different kind of question I'm asking myself, not to reject your premise here, which is like, what should our traditions be? Or how do we build upon the ones that keep getting handed to us and make them better or modernize them in some way? And so, what I mean by that is, we have, okay, the religious holidays, and those are just. Paul (11:38) Okay, go ahead. Marc (11:58) will always be, I would call it forced traditions. Enforced traditions in a sense of like, ⁓ you know, as a society you step back, the society chooses to celebrate them. There's a commercial aspect to it. And also frankly, you have off from work usually, you know, during those days. you know, and also for your kids, you're trying to create structure, right? And then by the way, which is another thing where I think traditions go a way. Paul (12:14) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (12:24) But like, how do you take the soul or cut the intention of those, right? And give them new life or make them a new. And there's something I was noodling on a little bit with Easter funny enough, because we actually had shockingly great weather. Easter is about spring, it's about rebirth, it's about, you've gone through a hard winter. Like, how do you go out and make that more meaningful outside of taking your kids for the... ⁓ Paul (12:51) Mm-hmm. Easter bunnies. ⁓ Marc (12:55) for the Easter, yeah. So that's where my head was at. was thinking, God, is it really just taking a long walk through nature? it buying like extra bits of flour, a flour bouquet that feels epic to welcome the season in? Because ⁓ those choices now matter more, I think, for our kids as parents than they did in the past. Because that's kind of. Like the story you just told about Christmas where it was based on the choices that your parents made and how to set that up, right? And either intentionally or unintentionally, right? They brought that out and obviously it had meaning for you. And I'm thinking, gosh, like if I'm just so blase about it, you know, like, I'm sure it'll be fine, but how do I make it more intentional? Paul (13:28) Absolutely. That's it. think that's a very nice question that I would... I think that... mean, how do you create your own traditions? And I would love to come back to that. But what I'm missing there in between, and maybe that's something only I have, and apparently you don't have that because you immediately changed the question. ⁓ No, no, no, not sorry. I think it's okay because to me, it's like I had... Marc (14:02) Sorry. Paul (14:07) My question was intentional in the sense like, you holding, do you have the feeling that you're holding on to some traditions that you shouldn't be holding on to? And I think you said before, you're a modernist, you aren't, and you don't have the feeling that those traditions are in your way. So you almost have a clean slate to say, hey, now that my kids are four and two, and they start to realize, you know, what's going on there, I'm about to make my own. And I think this is very naturally where you ask yourself this question. Marc (14:23) Yeah. Mmm Paul (14:36) The reason why I want to go one half step back is because to me that wasn't that easy. And my kids that are older, I have the feeling that for at least the past 10, 12 years, I have tried to recreate very actively the traditions that I had in my family because I wanted, because to me there were such peak moments, this Christmas for example. I was a, I called myself a Christmas Nazi. I mean, I hated the Christmases. Marc (14:42) Yeah. The Paul (15:05) the Christmases that we wouldn't spend at my parents' place because I loved this Christmas so much and every detail of it that I needed to recreate that. And then every other second Christmas we went to my ex-wife's family. And in a way that never changed also after divorce because we split the kids like this, you know. And still, and actually just last winter we had the first Christmas as a family again. Marc (15:11) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (15:30) together, but some were completely different, neither at my parents place, not at her place, but in a place that we chose and we went on vacation. And it was amazing. And we took parts, we took the Italian food, we did the Austrian Christmas ⁓ Eve present opening, we did a bit of the Bible story. So it was bits and pieces together. And it just made me realize, and Easter now again in a similar fashion, and I was very happy with it and I wasn't... held up with thinking, no, this should be that way or this should be that way because it's always been that way. And I found that very interesting. And I guess I'm not the only person that is, you know, that has feelings like this. Marc (16:04) Yeah. Yeah. I think most people feel that way. Not that I'm the exception, but I think you had a very powerful and clearly beautiful traditions that you held onto that made a great mark on you. you said, this gave me such joy. Why would I want to fuck with that? This is the best thing ever. It's a very natural response. Paul (16:31) Exactly. And that's exactly what it is. And that is exactly it. And I thought about it. And then I did my research because like, why is it so hard to give up on traditions? And this is exactly what you just said, right? Because Their anchors for us, we associate them with very happy moments. Marc (16:52) Yeah, I mean, look, since the beginning of time, human beings have created traditions, right? Obviously, other than pagan worship or whatever, like we felt the need for marking the harvest, for creating milestones in the year, right? That we either use for reflection or to come together around. But I think what you're hungering for underneath it is like you realize like, hey, like it's okay for some things to change and some things to, Paul (16:52) Their anchors, they... Absolutely. Marc (17:22) you know, to evolve. ⁓ Not all the time, but sometimes, you know, and it's interesting that the more you get older, I guess, in your prime as we did in our intro, I think those conceptions of traditions get tested, right? And I'll give you an example. Like ⁓ I celebrate Easter today, yesterday with my in-laws, right? My mother-in-law decided to make duck, right? 10 years ago, I've been crazy fucking triggered by this. I was like, why aren't we having lamb? We always have lamb on Easter. Why, like, you have duck on any, on these other days, right? Look, we're having it then, you It was lovely duck, don't get me wrong. But I just remember looking at it and thinking to myself, this doesn't matter. But it did back then. Paul (18:14) Yeah, but you also had that impulse and that's exactly what I because I think it's exactly that impulse that keeps people on to traditions. Right. And that's exactly what I've been, you know, where I wanted to go. ⁓ You need to find that moment to let go and you need to realize that because we are holding on to these things because they gave us happiness in the past. And so LAMB Marc (18:18) Yeah. Totally. Totally. Paul (18:44) was one of the things that was associated in your brain with Easter and Easter made you happy because you were hunting eggs and you got presents and hence you need lamp. Right? So, and that's just how, this is how your brain has wired this positive memory. So it automatically thinks if there is no lamp, there is no happiness. If there is no happiness, there is no, you know, there's no dopamine in running into the event. There is no oxytocin. Marc (18:47) Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Exactly. Paul (19:12) when I'm there and happy. And I find that fascinating, I mean, that's very simply, neurochemically, what it is, a tradition. It is a learned way how to release happiness, you know? Marc (19:17) Yeah, it's totally fascinating. Do you know like how two year olds clearly I'm in it, or four year olds for that matter will freak out when something isn't just right? Like, oh, the fork isn't where it's supposed to be, or like the greens are touching the, I think like we slowly but still step back from that kind of mindset. Now we think about your initiatives. It's the same idea. Paul (19:34) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Exactly. No, it's the same thing, It is the same thing. And the harder it's wired into us, right, the harder it is to give up, know, give it up, basically. Marc (19:53) ⁓ yeah. Okay, but why are we having this conversation? Are we having this conversation because we feel like we now is a good time to rethink some of these? Is this about letting it go? I'm just curious, like... Paul (20:15) I think it is exactly that, right? It is exactly that. And apart from, apart from why it is difficult to let go, right? Because of, you know, one is the psychology of it. The other one is also, think there is part of it is also part of your identity. And if you let something go, it's also always a threat to that. And to a certain extent, I think there's also kind of a For some people, maybe a betrayal in there if you want, right? To betray your family, to betray your tribe. that's one of, know, sense of belonging is one of our most ⁓ original psychological needs and wants, right? So I think that's all of that. That's difficult. And I think we do, I do personally, I never felt like I needed to make new ones, but as it happened to me, I made new ones and I realized how fucking nice it is. Marc (20:40) Nah, I say. Paul (21:06) ⁓ not to be trying to recreate something and stressing about it and how just naturally and flowing things can be. And that can also be a tradition. And that's what fascinated me in the past few days. Marc (21:20) You know, sometimes our little podcast is a gift and I would argue ⁓ you're bringing a little insight to me. I never really conceived of ourselves as tradition makers. You know, I always feel like, you know, they get foisted onto you and you kind of have to mold it, you know, but actually in this moment in our lives, we are in terms of how we're assembling our families, how we're raising our children, who we're inviting in versus out, you know, and. ⁓ if you start to see the world that way as part of your role now in this moment, that's a very beautiful thing. And I guess that brings me to the exercise of, well, what do we wanna let go of? What do we wanna keep? And what do we wanna modernize across a kind of consulting framework? But nonetheless, I think very useful for this. yeah, Paul (21:50) Exactly. It is, it is. It is exactly that, right? And let's come back to the question you asked before. I think why we ask ourselves this question is obviously because we became parents and we have fathers and mothers and we ask ourselves, we might also ask ourselves this because ⁓ we have experienced a few holidays that were terrible and we dissected the why and we came... Marc (22:24) Yeah. Sure. Paul (22:38) to the conclusion that we tried to maybe create something or create a food or an experience or have a Christmas tree, you know, because you have to have a Christmas tree and all these things and thereby totally destroyed the vibe. I think we probably all went down this perfectionist route where we had to make, I could imagine you trying to make the perfect meal and the stress of creating the perfect meal has actually ruined the rest of the day, right? Marc (22:48) Totally. yeah. All the time. All the time. Paul (23:06) Or somebody else might want to create the perfect family tradition of a holiday and spend a lot of money and in the end is super stressful because you have to fly somewhere with your kids. I don't know. And it becomes super shit. So I think we all to some extent probably came to a point like every point before a change is that made us reflect because it wasn't so great. So I think that's the why. Marc (23:25) Okay, perfect summary. as you were going through all the big whys of like why we're even talking about this, the challenges, et cetera, and we think about, well, what's most important to focus on, you know, as we start the act of modernization or making new or even inviting others, and I think you just hit on the right word of vibe, Things that preserve the vibe, ensure things that don't kill it, things that amplify it, are the things to be welcoming in, right? As you kind of design these traditions. And I think I'm gonna throw out an idea there for you, which is for the ones that get handed to us, what's called the religious holidays, the things that have marked your life, I think you're only shifting maximum 20 % of a tradition, right? Paul (24:04) Mm-hmm. Marc (24:11) Would you agree? Paul (24:12) Ahem. No. Marc (24:17) That was great. Paul (24:20) No, because I think what you don't shift is obviously the date and time of it, right? Because that's where things happen. And I think it's also good. And to me, they're not so much religious because as you know, we've had those holidays and those points in time way before we had the Christian religion and faith So I don't mind keeping that. Right. And as you said before, to you, Easter is more the welcoming of spring. Great. Check. it's nice because we have, we have created in our societies, holidays around it. So people don't have to work. People come together as families, which I think for is one of the most important elements for these. annual traditions that family comes together. I like that. So I'm happy to change the foods and all these kinds of things. So, yeah. So I wouldn't say 20%. I don't know how much, how much percentage you want to basically attribute to the timing of it. But for the rest, yeah. I mean, I like Easter egg hunts, but does it need to be on a Saturday morning or evening? I mean, or Sunday? don't care. know, Christmas presents 24th. Yes. Marc (25:07) Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, but the principles you do them. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, I figured it out. Okay, are there new ones that are top of mind for you? That you're like, gosh, know, this is like a fighting a family gathering, a boys holiday, you know, soccer holiday where you go to the, you know, I'm just trying to think through that. Paul (25:29) Yeah, so, so I don't know. No, know, frankly, when I think of them, mainly think of these traditions as a... And let's say, I mean, there is like weekly traditions that you have with your kids that are super important and you talked about them before. You make them pancakes every Saturday. That somehow became a tradition when the kids are with me. They really like that. And do you sing a certain song when you go to school? And that's super important for kids because it gives them the safety net and resilience and blah, blah. Marc (26:17) Of Paul (26:19) So I was wondering for the annual ones, I think we have enough points in time to have them and you'd rather make them proper and make that work for them because I think it's just important for them to have these anchors. in a funny way, mean, trying to remember your childhood, what do you remember? Right. You remember, you don't really remember how your year was when you were seven. Right. And, and I think creating memories on those holidays or traditional, whatever weekends, whatever it is, ⁓ events, birthdays, that's the highlight reel of your kids' memories because you charge them up with emotions, with sensory input, and that's what sticks in your brain. And that's what you think of when you are older. And I think so that's why they are important. Marc (26:44) No, no. Yeah, well, you know, it's that famous Maya Angelou quote, you know, people, what is it that people won't remember what you say or did, but how you made them feel. And ⁓ there's something kind of interesting about that in our memories and our fondness of traditions where I can't actually really remember my childhood one so much. I I kind of know what I did, but of course, but it's really it was a feeling, right, that you resurrect and what you're trying to recreate every year. And ⁓ that brings me back to vibe in a way and vibe and surface of those feelings. ⁓ And you get that right and everything else will flow. ⁓ Kevin, that's kind of an ⁓ interesting way. I don't know if it's to close this, but it's an interesting way to kind of land a plane in the sense of the... the emotional arc that you're kind of building for your kids and for yourself, you know, as you design these things, it's not really, you know, to stay too close to structure to a blueprint that worked one time doesn't necessarily mean that'll work. You know, it's different context each year. Paul (28:23) No, I think... Vibe is... If there's one thing to remember, I think it would be vibe from all of this. Because you turn the other way around and I had a conversation with someone ⁓ over a holiday not too long ago who said, you know, I always remember the bad vibe and the tension in my household over Christmas and I hated it. Marc (28:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (28:52) And I absolutely hated it. And that made me hate Christmas. Because we always fought, or we always had to do X, Y, Z, and we always had to please my father or my mother or who the... It doesn't matter. So, and that's actually made me realize, and it doesn't matter how fancy or what not, I think the vibe is the one thing, if you think about, should I go, you know, and stress myself out to make the perfect turkey, to get the perfect tree, hide the perfect nest, you know. Marc (28:52) Ha ha! Paul (29:20) Fuck it, the vibe is more important. I think that's one takeaway. If you want a blueprint for a new tradition, I also think that is interesting, because why not? Maybe you and your partner come from completely different traditions where it's hard to merge the two, right? Where it's not just switching one dish for the other and you have an Italian, Austrian Christmas. I that's easy. What if it's much more difficult? Or you want to create, I don't know, the yearly family trip. I think that's also an interesting one, how you do that. And I did a little bit of research on that, believe it or not. Marc (29:55) ⁓ my god. Okay, please. Share. Paul (29:57) Yeah. So I'll tell you now. The first one is if you want to establish a tradition, it needs to be a bulletproof setting in a way that it shouldn't be depending on weather, how much money you have. It should be something that is easily repeatable every year. Not that like, shit, this year I can't afford going to Vail because it's going to cost me bomb skiing, right? Or this year we can't do XYZ because it's raining, right? So it should be that. The other one which I found interesting is the sensory hook. Marc (30:13) Okay. Paul (30:27) It should create something. It's listen to a specific song, eat a specific snack. You know, the smell I told you about over Christmas was my sensory hook. So is there something there that is that? And then also with your kids, kind of create a shared ownership. So they're not just basically the recipients of a show, but they actually co-create in a sense. They get a job to do, decorate the tree, maybe in the US, do whatever. And then this whole... Marc (30:37) Yeah, of course. Paul (30:55) bringing back the Kaneman and the neurobiology of things, this peak end moment to kind of design things that there is a peak, an emotional peak and a calm end, because that's basically what you're going to remember from all of this in 10, 20, 30 years time. And never actually ever, and that's a nice one, ⁓ launch a tradition saying, hey guys, this is a new tradition, we're going to do this, that's not going to work, right? A tradition has to establish itself. Marc (31:04) Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha! Paul (31:25) So that's kind of I thought was also a nice one. Yeah. So yeah. Marc (31:27) Make it so obvious, hey guys, it's so great. We're gonna do a tradition. That's great, man. Actually, this has been a great conversation. Thank you for that. I feel renewed and energized. Paul (31:39) No, it really helped me understand a few things. It actually really touched me when I researched this this morning because there were a few things and there was like, ah, this is why it was so hard for me to let go of this. The safety it gave me. I almost a bit embarrassing that I didn't... I understood why I didn't want to decorate a Christmas tree until I was 33 because there is a safety attached to it that you like to just keep, right? That feeling of that you had as a child. Marc (31:49) Mmm. Paul (32:09) And it kind of makes you more... Well, obviously too great, right? In the sense that I felt so comfortable in my child me that I didn't want to be an adult and take the responsibility to do something new up until recently. Anyways. All right, nice one. ⁓ Marc (32:11) Your parents did a great job on you. least on that one. So funny. There I am. I loved it. Do you have do no, no, no, Exactly. Do you do you have a do you want to go first or should I? Paul (32:32) Me too, but we're not over. It's not over yet. We have a Terminate and Edit of the Week. Go ahead. Marc (32:43) If this is about Mark the idiot, I did something so fucking stupid. You know, arrived in Frankfurt airport with two kids, two giant suitcases. And we had to get to ⁓ the train station there, Paul (32:49) What did you do? Marc (33:00) we put the kids, on top of the suitcase and you push them, remember that? You when they were young enough to do that? Yeah, everyone does, So I was looking and I was like, okay, we gotta go up to the tracks. And it was a long, I like a very high escalator. Like just think like it's gonna go for a good minute, you're gonna be on that thing. I was like, do I take the escalator or do I walk half a... Paul (33:03) Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course, of course. Marc (33:24) half a kilometer, that's how it felt anyway, to go take the elevator on the other side. Of course, we're gonna take the escalator, right? Sure enough, two suitcases, stroller, two kids on top of these things moving, et cetera, going up these giant ⁓ escalator stairs. Vera's up there. Sure enough, one kid pushes the suitcase down, smacks down onto the stairs. Paul (33:39) my god. Marc (33:51) The handle snaps right off of the damn thing. Thank God the kids were okay. It was one of those like, Mark, like full on perfect somehow reaction to just move the two year old away ahead of the, know, 50, you know, 30 kilo. Yeah, it's the suitcases. So easy. Paul (33:54) ⁓ my god, okay. Oops. The falling foot suitcase. The falling suitcase. Marc (34:13) I'm an idiot. What about you? Paul (34:14) And that's it. Well, mine is a little bit, I would say deep. I just spent a day at home in my parents' place. And that's just, I think I missed a really good opportunity to have a conversation with my dad because I don't know, I didn't feel like I was ready for it. And I really chastised myself for it on the way home. And maybe I needed that to go back next weekend and have that conversation because I felt it was, I felt the conversation was in the air, if you know what I mean. Marc (34:31) Hmm. Paul (34:43) But I couldn't get myself to it. Yeah, bring myself to it. Although there was actually the opportunity and blah blah blah and so it kind of pisses me off. ⁓ But there's no point in dwelling on that. Marc (34:48) Bring yourself to do it. I know, those are the worst. Those are hard. We should do a podcast on why those things are so hard. As soon as you described it, I knew exactly what you meant. Paul (35:03) Yeah, I don't know man. You know exactly that feeling in your belly and it's it's a... fucker. I have something lighter for the Terminator though. Yesterday for the first time in my life I think I kind of semi-watched a... ⁓ road bike race. The Tour of Flanders. Super random, right? But these guys and I think it's so interesting because... I wasn't high. I wasn't... Marc (35:13) Please. Okay, those guys are crazy. Okay, were you high? Look on the couch. Paul (35:34) I had a few glasses with the Osterjause, but I wasn't high. No, but I think it's interesting if you then get a phenomenon like in this case, Tadej Pogacar, right? And they have all these other guys that are also really good. And you do the sport too, it's a sport I love and you see what they do is so crazy. But as soon as you have a figure that people write about, talk about and is like that, the sport gets more interesting. And obviously this guy destroyed them again and dominated this race where they go... Marc (35:36) Okay. Mm. Paul (36:01) 280 kilometers in a day across cobblestones. It's completely nuts. It is completely nuts what they do. They output 650 watts on their way up. it's nuts. mean, if you know biking is nuts and it's cool and he's also really seems to be a really nice guy. so that's my Terminator of the week. Fucking Terminator. Killer. Marc (36:22) Killer, fuck. My terminator is Nature and I just need to thanks to it because I got ⁓ to Frankfurt from New York in just a little over six hours. I don't remember being there that fast. It's like we were just, because it was the winds just blowing it, like all in our favor. And it was just, know, like somehow Nature knew that I was gonna have a one and a half year old that didn't wanna sleep. Paul (36:26) Mmm What does that have to do with nature? haha Marc (36:50) and I would have to walk up around and I was like, okay, six hours is too, it's not 10 or eight or however it normally feels. And ⁓ also because it's not summer so they don't have the night flights. So it's just, it starts at seven. So you get, anyway, I was just extremely grateful. When you get there super fast, yeah, yeah, exactly. Paul (37:05) Okay. That's a nice nature as a Terminator is a nice one. Well, Marky, was a pleasure. I'm looking forward to seeing you in two days in Vienna. Marc (37:16) Yeah, God, it's gonna be great.