The Friendship Math That Doesn't Add Up | Ep 43

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, this is a podcast about the things you start thinking about when you're in your prime, you know, midlife. You will hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out. In short, the things that shaped us and continue to move us. And today's episode, we're going to talk about the friendship math that doesn't work, meaning keeping friends, holding friends. making friends all in your prime. that is a number that ⁓ statistically isn't very much in our favor. I'm your host, Mark Winter, speaking to you from a beautiful day in New York City. I'm an entrepreneur, an artist, father of two, ⁓ husband to a lovely wife. And I'm joined by my dear friend Paul. Hey, Paul, how are you? Who are you? Paul Fattinger (00:56) I am great. I am Paul. I'm calling in from Vienna on a terrible day, 13 degrees and rain. But apart from that, I am an entrepreneur, an investor, a father of three, I hope a good friend on the topic of today, and a lover of rabbit holes of all different kinds. And I am really looking forward to today's episode. Mark. Marc (01:19) Nice. so before we get into it, who's sponsoring you today? Paul Fattinger (01:26) I am sponsored today by actually two nice friends, Nora and Christian, who gave me this wine as a thank you because I bought them my Avalanche backpack. And it's this German reasoning now I finally opened from Eva Fricke. It's called Seligmacher and it is, I hate to admit it almost, and I wouldn't if it wasn't a present. It's really good. It's really good. I mean, it is a German reasoning, but it has enough acidity. Marc (01:38) Yes. Ha Paul Fattinger (01:53) It's fantastic. It's like hands down fantastic. Marc (01:56) I'm unfortunately sponsored by coffee at this moment in time. was... Paul Fattinger (02:01) Dude, but it's like in the afternoon. Marc (02:03) Yeah, I know it's almost four. I was going to crack open up something, but you know what? My wife emptied all her beers in the fridge. It's crazy. Paul Fattinger (02:09) Huh, Marc (02:10) All right, so listen, setting the stage. Why are we talking about this? Men's friendship in their 40s, just to throw out some numbers in there. This is really considered the friendship recession in a way. And it's actually quite of a modern problem. think this compounded with the when we was epidemic. I would just want to throw out some stats to make it real. So did you know that Paul Fattinger (02:10) Here we go. Marc (02:33) In 1990, only 3 % of men reported having no close friends, right? And by the mid 2020s, that number has surged to 15%. And no close, no close. And then there's like, you know, the percentage of men with at least six close friends as plummeted from 55 % in 1990, just to 27 % today. You have more than six close friends, right? Paul Fattinger (02:43) No close friends, like zero. I think we should define close friends but keep on going with the stats. Marc (03:04) All right. You know, and then in an ARP, is a is a interesting, usually for for elderly people, it's an interesting nonprofit here, you know, survey found that adults ages 45 to 49 report the highest levels of loneliness. Forty percent compared to any other older age group. I hate fuck you for saying older. Yeah, that's the age. So you're you're about to is the high peak levels of loneliness. Paul Fattinger (03:26) 45 to 49. Really? Marc (03:34) You know? And then this one was the shocker for me. I'm just, before we get into this, ⁓ the loss rates. On average, men in their 40s report losing about nine to 10 friendships over the previous decade due to life transitions, moves, divorce, changes. Nine to 10. Which is like... Paul Fattinger (03:54) If you don't even have six at the start, that's kind of... Marc (03:56) Yeah, yeah, but I mean, that's kind of a shock. Well, that to me was a bit of a gut punch. part of what sparked this, was actually out on a Saturday night with Vera and some friends. I was hanging out with some of my agent. I could tell he was keen to start a friendship. We were out in a club, was outside, and I was like, man, it's so... interesting like how open he was about it. He was basically like, hey, yeah, actually I haven't hung out with anyone new in a while, you up for that? And I said, that's kind of an interesting, very forward way. Yeah, yeah, I mean, he was a cool guy. Definitely, definitely. But it was like, it got me kind of into this rabbit hole a little bit. It's like, well, why is it around friendships? Paul Fattinger (04:39) And are you? Yeah. Marc (04:52) Why does it feel like it's hard for special guys our age? There's some obvious stuff, but I also have seen in my friendship circles that a lot of my friends, don't hang out with a lot of other people. It's either they're same old to high school friends, they're not new characters around, maybe some new work people, but that's really about it. Do you see the same thing? Paul Fattinger (05:05) Hmm. Hmm. I do and I don't. It's really hard from the top of my head to kind of, ⁓ think about or count, you know, people's friendships. And I don't look as close in their lives. I found the same statistics that you have found and what I just to pick one out there, ⁓ 40 to five to 49, the loneliest people in general. think if you, if you broaden that, that's also. I think between 35 and 50, this group of men is much lonelier than any, than all the younger groups that we're now talking about, the lost generation said that we've talked about, know, and Scott Galloway talks about actually is all these millennials that somehow also, you know, get into this problem zone. It's hard to judge. can only say for myself that the The largest part of my friends I've had for the last 15, 20 years. And there is a few and that's less than a handful that was added in the last 15, I would say, or in the last five to seven. Marc (06:23) Well, let me ask you this. when was your, I have a hypothesis, I'll throw it out there. I bet your peak friendship-making activity, right, one was around high school. I'm carrying three periods of it, you tell me. One would be like around high school, I bet you carried some of those. The second would be around university, it's an intense time. And the third I think would be around business school. Paul Fattinger (06:46) Yeah, of course. Yes. Marc (06:47) Okay, so intense times with people, right? And I think business school is a really interesting kind of gift because like it's, you know, we were making friends, you know, over an 18 month period of time in a different city, like late in your 20s that many people don't have the privilege of doing. Paul Fattinger (07:06) To me it's very... I don't know if I'm atypical, but just as an interesting reflection for myself, there is literally a couple, meaning two very good old friends from high school. One lives in Northern Ontario and decided to be a policeman in the Ontario police, in the OPP. And I basically see him every couple of years and the other one lives somewhere in Austria as a doctor and I see him once, twice a year. Marc (07:24) yeah. Paul Fattinger (07:35) So I don't see those guys so often. have zero friends from university. Zero, interestingly enough. Marc (07:40) Hmm, probably because you're a fucking nerd. can already, I can see it. Paul Fattinger (07:44) No, I don't know. not from that time, yes. One very good friend is still there or two. From that time, but not actually from my university. I got to know them around in a group's friends. Then obviously the NBA, but that's also too. I mean, obviously that's you. And I actually, the biggest group of new friends then came, the two biggest are from my early, my first jobs. Marc (08:11) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (08:12) In the end, first two consulting jobs were just spend a lot of time with the same people who are also, you know, because I started in consulting where you work with a lot of peers, which I think is so great about these jobs. So you're not in a strict hierarchy. So you have lots of people on the same level and it's easy to make friends and you kind of have similar lifestyles. And then the rest was actually acquired through, you know, in my relationship and through friends of friends. And then this whole family. thing starts ⁓ coming up and then you hang out with friends that just fit into the system. And I think that's interesting. I'm now coming full circle back to your question. If I look at a lot of people around me, think most of them, including myself, have friends that fit into the system. Meaning you have a couple that have kids that are the same age and the wife likes the person, the husband likes the other person so they can... Marc (09:01) That's right. Paul Fattinger (09:08) Yeah, so it all kind of has to check out, which doesn't necessarily have to mean that these are the closest people to you or me, you know, and that, you know, you know where I'm getting it. Yeah. Marc (09:18) Yeah, those are like convenient friends. Those are friends in the system. You're being really nice. Paul Fattinger (09:22) They can be great friends and close friends and amazing. And I think that also works, right? I think that works with two, one, two, three, maybe four couples, if even. Yeah, that's amazing. But what's beyond that? think that's the interesting question is what's beyond that? And what's possible beyond that? Marc (09:39) Yeah, that's fair. That's true. Well, I mean, I want to put out three factors. Oh, fine. For me, look, I think I'm always collecting friends or people. would say like, but it's part of how I was built. Like I was just. Paul Fattinger (09:54) Yeah, but also I think that's what we discovered. In our first episode is that your definition of a friend and a close friend is very American as compared to mine, you don't believe in the 200 hour rule, right? You think that's bullshit, which is exactly to the point. Marc (10:06) No, yeah, exactly. Well, we're going to get to that in a sec. I do think that's bullshit, I do. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (10:12) Yeah, because your definition of a good friend or a close friend is just not the same as the 200 hours. Because someone you drink a glass of wine twice and you think is nice is not a close friend. Marc (10:16) Okay. That's I'm saying basically that I think 200 hours is a lot. And I think very often when you connect with someone, which you can do, you can make fast friends really quick. You've heard of the phrase fast friends. I imagine you believe in that. Or do I always have to, or. Paul Fattinger (10:39) I've never heard of it and I think it's a lot of bullshit. You can't... Please enlighten me. Marc (10:41) Yeah, or are you super Austrian? You're like, okay, wow, I've just met Mark, let's see. Yeah, by my calculation, we've been spent exactly 66 hours together, so we have another 144 hours to go and suddenly we're being my close friend. ⁓ I'm so glad you're not here to punch me. Paul Fattinger (10:58) Exactly. And if it's 199 hours and we don't make the last hour, you're not going to be a close friend. You can go fuck yourself because it's 200 hours, you know? I would call more people acquaintances that you call friends Marc (11:13) I believe that too, what's the threshold between friend and close friend here because it can't just be time spent Paul Fattinger (11:19) I think more than a backward looking assessment of what is friendship is a forward looking one is like, who do you call when you actually have a problem and you actually don't feel well and who do you feel safe enough to open up about things that you wouldn't open up to lots of other people. To me, that is the definition of a close friend that I will call when I, you know, Marc (11:37) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (11:44) I did something that I'm ashamed of, ⁓ What are the things, who do you tell the things that really make you feel ashamed? I think many people don't at all. Marc (11:59) one test of friendship. I think there's another, like we are generous with your time, your energy and your thinking of there's something about anyway that that feels to me like a close friend. I'll give you an example. Like, mean, I'm ⁓ I consider of a close friend of mine as a guy who lives in Zurich right now. And we went to the World Cup together for two days, just two days. It was just on a whim. we spent 48 hours together, right? Hanging out, talking about soccer, talking about Russian literature. And we walked away from that shared experience closer. I felt like I spent two weeks with that person. Paul Fattinger (12:40) And that's all the time we ever spent, two days. And he's... Marc (12:43) Look, the longest I would say that sparked it. And after I left that, I was like, I can call that person for something. It was an intense period of time, but a good one. Paul Fattinger (12:49) Okay. To me it would be a friend. Marc (12:59) Fine. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, can we talk just to get real as Paul Fattinger (13:03) I think we can do the translation here. Your friend is my acquaintance. ⁓ Your close friend is my friend. And my close friend, I'm not sure you have any. I'm not sure the American superficiality has actually ever arrived there. Maybe I'm the only one. Marc (13:08) Haha! And Mark has no close friends. Yeah, thought even, exactly. I was just about to say, this is the epiphany where I realized I do not have any close friends. Exactly, exactly. my God, I'm not, I'm just a synthetic version of a man. Just desperate to call everyone a friend. ⁓ Okay, look, one thing for sure is whether or not it's an acquaintance or a friend, right? What we're trying to talk about is like the, the loneliness epidemic that a lot of people feel, especially in our 40s. There are three factors for this. One I know you can relate to, because you mentioned, which is the spouse proxy, which many of their men in their 40s rely mostly entirely on their partners for social planning, right? And if the relationship ends or the partner is busy, the man's social life often collapses. You spoke about experiencing that yourself, right? Paul Fattinger (14:03) Yes, I have. Yeah, I know. I think that's a reality. I think lots of men do this. I I did this. I completely outsourced. And I learned it from my parents. My father had outsourced his complete social life to my mother. And she was amazing at doing this. And so I was like, okay, fine. Marc (14:06) Yeah. Yeah. So. That's the point. Yeah. So funny. ⁓ I think I play the reverse role with my wife. I'm the one who's with Vera. I'm the one who's doing all the calender, calendaring and she shows up, you know? ⁓ Yeah, yeah, that's very rare. ⁓ The next one is of course, like we were just riffing around the 200 hour rule, which is basically with all how fucked everything is, right? It's like, it's hard to invest in something that's meaningful and true. Paul Fattinger (14:31) Really nice. Okay, interesting. Yes. Marc (14:49) and like with kids and things like that, know, it's just it's just challenging, right? And so like. Paul Fattinger (14:59) And I want to add to this. think when you are younger, those times come more easily because when you are studying together with a friend and you sit and you spend hours sitting around in the library studying for an exam and then you go for a drink or, you know, like we did in the NBA or at work, like my very good friend Kiko, who I met at work, I don't know how many, 20 years almost ago at KPMG. built models, Excel models all night. Marc (15:00) Cut. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (15:29) and joked around like idiots. That's just time spent on a job with a peer. think that really counts. you don't have that anymore. I actually find enough one of a close friend, Jörg, who you know, came through my job when I was in my early 30s, because he was my colleague, my partner, and I built a business with him. And we spoke so much that obviously, you know. Marc (15:36) Yeah, it does. No. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (15:56) you start talking about, I talk to him more than I talk to my wife at that point in time, easily. ⁓ And that's an amazing friendship and it still is. So, but I think you kind of run out of those opportunities to spend lots of time with, you know, one peer. Your job is different. You spend time with lots of, not only with one team, but with many teams, blah, blah, blah. You're not studying anymore. So your life is just structured in a different way. Marc (16:01) Right, right, yeah, of course. I agree, and I think, know, ⁓ and if you're married, it's just you only have so many hours to give, right, and hours in the day, and so it's hard to place bets on people, you know? That's the way I would call it. Paul Fattinger (16:41) Yeah, mean, think of it, $200, that takes 20 years. I mean, or 10 or five, I mean, that's insane. It's not gonna happen. Marc (16:45) Okay. Well, the third kind of hinder here, which is actually really related, is activity versus affect. So basically, men typically bond through side-by-side activities, sports, projects, As projects like work projects, right? So as physical activity slows or work takes over different, as people get promoted, they're out of the work anyways, like to use the consulting thing, right? The reason to hang disappears. And men are statistically less likely just to call friends just to talk. Paul Fattinger (17:04) Mm-hmm. Okay. Tell me more. Marc (17:22) And this one really resonates because if you don't have the... ⁓ physical, what is it, like the physical shit to do or stuff to do. If you're not playing out sports, if you're not playing tennis, you're not organized around like activities, right? Like it's just, it's hard. I think that I get it. I get it. That makes a lot of sense to me. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (17:48) Yeah, absolutely. I don't think you have the time either in when in your twenties to put on top, but the way you spend your time is is way more geared to those joint experiences with people that could be your friends. That's kind of that's much easier. Marc (18:04) Yeah, well that's what they say. Now let's be really clear. What ⁓ these reports don't count as an activity like you and I do is that sitting around with your friends and opening great bottles of wine is absolutely an activity. And a great way of, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, that's like a way of a good life of bringing people to a table, which is one of the things that I actually love to do, way of meeting new people, is... ⁓ Paul Fattinger (18:18) What is a fucking activity that is the activity? Yeah. Marc (18:31) inviting them over and just having discourse over some nice bottles is always a great thing. And I think it doesn't have to be sports. Let's put it that way. Paul Fattinger (18:39) You know, like what I'm just thinking though is this, what's interesting is I think there is this, those big, as you said, like kind of cuts in life, right? And one of the big ones, I think that we've all experienced is when you first have kids and your group of friends completely changes because the ones who have kids, especially the first ones is usually a very obnoxious thing because all of a sudden everything is about those kids. And if you don't have them, you think it's completely stupid. And then Marc (18:54) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (19:08) You have others who are trying to cancel it kind of splits everything up and pulls it in the same way, kind of regroups everything into the group that have kids and that don't. And then, and how old are they and are they somehow compatible and do they like each other? And then for a while, this becomes a very dominant factor of how you choose or with who you choose to spend time with. And rightly so. Marc (19:17) Yes. Paul Fattinger (19:37) because you need a break and hopefully those kids play with each other and they're not on you and you can actually enjoy a glass of wine and have some fun. ⁓ And that's that. And then though, I think now as my kids become older, that's still a factor. It's obviously nice when you go somewhere that there are other kids that they can play with, but it becomes way more open. more compatible as they get older, right? In terms of interests. And I feel there's an opening. And actually, when I think about it, I do know quite some friends who through shared activities, like they have started to play in a tennis club and all of a sudden have more time because their kids are even older and da-da-da-da. So they're not on the verge of moving out, but then they're teenagers and they started playing in a tennis club and now they have new friends from there. Or, you know, now I have met, you know... Marc (20:07) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (20:34) I was actually invited today for a barbecue by another soccer dad who has spent five hours on the rainy football pitch today or soccer pitch for our American friends. And you know, my other friend, Toby, who I met through the soccer games with lots of shared hours on the sidelines, maybe not, was probably close to 200, at least what it feels like. Yeah, felt like 200. So I think there is an opening again, maybe in... Marc (20:52) Yeah, yeah, yeah. It felt like 200. Paul Fattinger (21:04) at our age, Assuming you had kids somewhere in your early 30s like me. I think there is a kind of twist in there to the positive and I have seen it more to the positive than to the negative, to be honest. Marc (21:18) That's really inspirational. have not. Yeah, look, I got to tell you, I, yeah, you are Captain Blue Sky. I don't see it at all. mean, look, for my friends outside, I'm usually like, they are either trapped with similar age kids. They're shipping their kids from soccer practice to back home, to like focusing on work and their high-press jobs, And they radiate unhappiness. They just do. Like, it's not... Paul Fattinger (21:20) I wanna be, yeah, I wanna be blue sky today. ⁓ Marc (21:48) Or, unhappiness is the wrong word. They radiate life at 70%. The wife is happy, the kids are happy, job's fine. They're not like, getting a beer on the calendar is a rare thing. ⁓ And I think that's, if you believe, I think like most of us do, that awesome friends makes your life at least 30 % to 50 % better. You can get through a lot with awesome friends. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (21:55) Mmm. Mm. Fair enough. Marc (22:17) ⁓ It ⁓ is a real challenge. But what you're hitting on, agree with. And it's funny, finding the interest clubs, because now, I think in your 20s, you're very often discovering what you like, or your life is full on, et cetera. I think in your 40s, you know what you like, really queer, and what you want to double down on in many cases. And so you can reclaim that, if you will. Paul Fattinger (22:45) Yes, I think, I to be honest, and I don't want to be judgy here, to kind of ⁓ to kind of approach finding new friends like dating. So you have to join a run club or you have to join a certain club to find me. I find that a bit hard to swallow, to be honest, because what I really but I also don't want to judge if that's the thing you want to do, then do it. I think it's smart. But what I see, because you asked before and now I'm getting to it is I do see a lot of opportunities with a lot of people as one is sports. The other one is you join a rotary club or you join YPO or like I did a couple of weeks ago, you go to retreat with, you know, eight different men of who, okay, I knew three or four, but the others I didn't know, they're great. I mean, and then you share such an intense experience where you open up so extremely in fact, that you are have an immediate bond. Marc (23:28) Yeah. Totally. Paul Fattinger (23:41) So I think there is so much opportunity out there when you are generally interested in life and in other people. I think there are. The question is, and that's the real question is, how can you... I think for you and me, clearly, and we're also slightly extroverted people, there is enough opportunity to meet new people. Okay? And there might be others, and I also know friends who probably live also... Marc (23:53) I agree. Totally. Paul Fattinger (24:10) in some shitty place where there are no new people. They just don't fucking exist there. And for them it might be harder. But let's stay with the group that I know is like, we meet lots of new people, but how do you actually make them friends? And let's fuck the 200 hours. But how do they actually end up being on your call list? And not just a good friend like you call them that you see every couple of years. And I don't want to take the piss now. My point is more, I've asked myself this question a week ago too, is like, who are the five people I spent most time with? Because you know that saying that you are the average of the five people that you spent the most time with. And I thought about this and I was like, I'm not sure I really know who those five people are. And I want to be more consciously selecting who those are. Marc (24:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (25:08) and who influenced me and my average, if that is true. And I think that's interesting. How do you actually, a close friend to me is someone you talk to at least once, twice a month. Marc (25:22) I agree. Paul Fattinger (25:22) That is a close friend. A close friend is probably within those five apart from your partner. Marc (25:31) Do you think, okay, let me ask you this. Do you bring that level of intentionality to your friendship circles? Paul Fattinger (25:31) That is a close friend. That's my point. think I don't. I don't. And then you end up with, mean, obviously your spouse and it's like, is also my ex wife. ⁓ you, which I'm very happy about and glad about, and you should be happy about me too, by the way, that's raising the average. Yeah. Marc (25:41) You know. I'm a 10 and I know everyone else is a 2. Ha ha ha! Paul Fattinger (26:09) clear, ⁓ very clear bar is a here. But it's getting difficult for and there's Kiko who I talked to a lot and so on. So I do know and have but but I would love more intentionally intentionality in that is what I'm saying. And I think that thought experiment to think who are those people and who do I want in my life is extremely interesting. And then to Marc (26:12) Yeah, exactly. Are you good at shedding friends? Paul Fattinger (26:38) I would say people would say yes. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I've become better at it because ⁓ I don't feel bad about it anymore. I don't think people and that's where people can still stay friends and I don't have to talk to them all the time and I can see them every couple of years and it's great and we connect but I don't need to have them close. Marc (26:43) Yeah, you're pretty good at it. Hmm, interesting. Paul Fattinger (27:07) Because maybe the way they are and they live their life doesn't fit mine and maybe some values don't and I don't want them close either. That doesn't mean I wouldn't jump in a heartbeat when something happens to them and they can always trust me and I can always trust them. Marc (27:23) Got it, interesting. You know, I guess as usual, we went with free flowing with this one, but it does make me, I love the idea being, let me back up. We're both very good at making friends. I think we say that, I say that humbly. I don't think that's, and this isn't an episode about that skill, right? I think we're just kind of acknowledging that it is more challenging, I think. For some like this age could given everything we have to balance the time investment the fact that you know a lot of men already have Decided they have set front friendship networks, etc but we also live in very social cities, you know and ⁓ and we're really curious so I think like How do you apply that scale skill set to actually bring like, you know a greater diversity of friendships that continue to provoke you and help you grow? It's an interesting question. ⁓ I feel like I've been doing that slightly intuitively, but not like by design. And it sounds kind of weird. It's like, I need a musician because I don't have one of those, or I need someone who's a great artist because I don't have that. I don't think it's that. It's just more of a dynamicism. Paul Fattinger (28:44) No, I think you're totally right. think that you said it before. The bottleneck is time. Because the highest likelihood of that working still is if that guy has a wife that your wife likes and ideally also has kids in your kids age and they also like each other, then bam, off you go. This is a match made in heaven. But if that if any one of those doesn't work, Marc (29:03) Totally. Paul Fattinger (29:12) It means you need to find time with this person one-on-one, which basically is a great idea anyways, apart from the weekends that you spend with your family and the work dinners you have and the date nights you have. And for that, you have to have a lot of intentionality and carve out that time. And the other person also needs to have that understanding because I think that's the only way that works. And I think that's the really hard thing. And what I've really found interesting is that, you know, Marc (29:25) Yeah, yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (29:41) We kind of covered the why is this a problem, you know, for many, the also the fact that some are more exposed to new sources of friends than others. We are very much exposed. But I think even for us, we're exposed to those sources is not so easy to actually bring those guys over the finish line and make them friends for life because that requires time invest and you don't have that time, which brings me back to our Marc (30:08) Totally. No. Paul Fattinger (30:10) passage of time episode where you said something that has stuck with me ever since then is we need to be way more intentional about our time and maybe not go to one of these stupid work dinners and spend it with one of those people that is on the short list. Marc (30:22) Namaste. One of the most, what is it? The most valuable, at times the most valuable thing we have and the most thing, the thing we most cheaply give away. So. Paul Fattinger (30:36) Yeah, it's fucking stupid. Anyways, yeah. Marc (30:38) It's not fucking stupid. Alright, go make some friends. That's the headline of this. ⁓ I enjoyed it. I enjoyed this one. Good. Paul Fattinger (30:43) I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. I'm very motivated. Me too. What am I going to take away? The intentionality. Guys, write down the five people you want to spend the most time with and who you want to be, you know, part of your average. I think that's an awesome, an awesome exercise. Marc (30:52) I was intentionality. And not to take it for granted, right? mean, not that you're suggesting, it is interesting. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (31:07) Exactly. Alright man. ⁓ Beautiful. Marc (31:15) Terminator and Idiot of the Week. Paul Fattinger (31:17) The most idiotic thing that I've done is that I spent about five hours on a rainy day at 30 degrees on a soccer pitch watching my son's soccer game and they soccer tournament and they sucked today and I froze and Jesus Christ anyways, but Marc (31:26) hahahahah Paul Fattinger (31:37) I got an invite for barbecue so on the friends side that was all worth it. Marc (31:43) My idiot is me, I guess. But I'm going to tie this back to our theme here. So I took my son to T-ball. Do you know what T-ball is? It's not baseball. like they kind of put like a kind of pole, and they keep the ball there, and they swing. I guess that's how they were and how to swing. And it was a class on a Saturday. Paul Fattinger (31:56) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Marc (32:08) two miles, I'm about to take a bus. I was like so pissed and I go there. That's because like back to like we were talking about his close friends, parents started nagging us like, hey, like go to T-ball blah, blah, So like I show up and it's a lifetime of triggering moments happen to me. I've realized like I walk into a baseball group and I'm like, my God, this was like, this was so hard for me. I don't want him to do this. Right. And then like the father is the opposite of. Paul Fattinger (32:16) Mm. Mm. Marc (32:34) It's just, it was just talking to him. was like, this guy with his head, like a Yankees hat, like he had his like baseball jerseys on and you know, like just like all in and I was watching this guy and I'm like, time the fuck out. And so yesterday, so last week, ⁓ this was two weeks ago. And then last week, last Saturday, ⁓ I intentionally said, it's going to rain. They're canceled practice, right? Just casually told Vera that right. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (32:43) So he was all in. Marc (33:03) And then the parents wrote, they're like, so where's Felix, your son? Our son is looking for him, right? And I'm like, ⁓ oops. it's been, I'm just an idiot for accepting him to go to T-Pol. Let's put it that way. All right, ⁓ my own fault. Terminator of the week. Paul Fattinger (33:12) Oops. Oops. Okay, here you go. And your terminator. You have one? Marc (33:28) You know, I'm gonna work on it. You go. I had one now, I don't wanna use it. Paul Fattinger (33:32) I do have one. I met two young entrepreneurs in their mid late 20s maybe and I met one of those guys a year ago in an &A transaction where he was working for a small &A boutique on the sales side and I was a potential buyer and they went solo in kind of an &A boutique where they tried to offer their services to investors and entrepreneurs like me. and others in a more fun, modern and risk-taking way. And I had lunch with them and I'm going to work with them. And I just found it so brave and bold and cool and how they're doing this. I really thought, well done guys, awesome. And I really respected it. Basically they did what you did or I did after 20 years of work experience. They did it after two. It was like, fuck this shit, we can do this better. And yeah, I think that's bad ass. And I really want to, you know. Marc (34:08) Okay. ⁓ badasses. Yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (34:31) Big shout out to them, whether they make it on this gig or not, but to just fucking do it ⁓ is pretty cool. It was pretty inspiring. And I thought, I definitely want to work with them just because of that, because I think that's a great energy. Yeah. That's balls. And you need balls. Marc (34:49) That's really good. I'm going to have a different kind of Terminator. My Terminator is my personal trainer. So Darcy is ⁓ an incredible friend maker and networker. And so much so that he's like, hey, do you want to go to ⁓ the Formula One in Monaco? ⁓ first week of July. I'm like, fuck yeah, I do motherfucker. And my question to you, Paul, is, is that a close friend?