The Real Reason Men Don't Ask for Help | Ep 42

Paul (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about the things that you start thinking about when you are in your prime. You know, what some people also call midlife. You will hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shaped us and continued to move us. And today, in today's episode, we're gonna talk about something that at least moved me. And that is therapy. Yes, we're going to talk about therapy. So maybe lots of people are switching off. But if in case you are a man, maybe you want to listen because there is some interesting stuff out there and we're going to explore a little bit. And who is we? First of all, well, it's me. Not that I wanted to call myself out first, but it's easy like that. Marc (00:31) Hahaha Who are you? Go for it. Paul (00:54) Exactly. My name is Paul, Paul Feidinger. I am calling in from Vienna. I'm an outspoken fan of therapies of all different kinds, as you will probably learn. Also a father of three, divorced, which was kind of the trigger for all of that therapy. A former chief executive and now entrepreneur. And I'm joined by my dear friend Mark calling in from... Marc (01:13) Hello, New York City on a sunny day. That is one of your best intros. ⁓ Gosh, I've never done therapy. ⁓ People tell me I practice it all the time, but we'll have two sides of the coin, I think, today. But I'm an entrepreneur, ⁓ an artist a little bit, and father of two, and ⁓ deeply fascinated by the human psychosis and what moves us. Paul (01:17) Yes, beautiful man. Ha ha ha. Absolutely. Marc (01:43) I'm so excited for this conversation today. And I am also jealous. Can I just say that I'm jealous of you because I know that you are having a glass of wine while talking about therapy and I am sponsored by, are you ready? Instant coffee. It's like a crime that I'm putting in my body. just, no man, I couldn't be bothered to make real coffee because I do, I had to get on with you. Paul (01:47) wow man, nice. ⁓ What the fuck, happened? Did you run out of coffee? You make it in the French press. mean, what can you not be bothered, man? It's already the least intervention way to make coffee. Exactly. I love the French press. know, you got me into it. Absolutely. You know, you had one here in Vienna the other day. I am having, I've had this before on the podcast. was tempted to open. I was given as a present a very nice, wait for it, German Riesling. Marc (02:16) The least effort. I will defend the French press any day. ⁓ No, he's coming around. Yeah. From where? Moses? Paul (02:38) I know you would love this. I know you would love this. You know, which is which is, no, from Rheintal, Rheingau, Rheingau, exactly from Rheingau. Very, really nice bottle, but then I didn't know if I would finish it, so I didn't open it. Yeah, but a very mood to get present from me because I'm always pitching about German Riesling, so I didn't want to go on the record and say this one is actually really nice. Marc (02:46) Rango? yeah, yeah. Ha Paul (03:07) I'm avoiding it, yeah? You know? Marc (03:07) Every time I show Paul a German Riesling, he's like, throw it in the trash. Exactly. Paul (03:11) No, I think they're in general overrated and the ones that are typical I don't like but there are some and I've had them that are very nice. I will say this now. I am having a really nice glass of, I've had this before, good Orgao white wine which doesn't look white but it's very natural, very biodynamic. It was basically, it was harvested by horses basically, you with horses and it's very... Marc (03:18) Extraordinary stuff. Okay, good. On the record. Mmm. Looks golden. Nice! Paul (03:41) It's very original. So, and it's been a short week for me, SuperSan in Vienna too. Very chill actually. ⁓ Lots of things going on. How have you been doing? You've been busy. You never reply to my messages, so I guess you're busy. Marc (03:49) Nice. Fucking busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I replied to you're one of the people I most reply to. So just imagine how everyone else feels. It's okay. No, good, good, good. A lot of good, great momentum for the business. Paul (03:59) No, you actually do it really well. I was just taking the piss a little bit. Marc (04:10) do you ever have the kind of week where like it's Tuesday and you're already thinking about the bottle of wine that you're going to open on Friday, the good bottle of wine? That's what you're like. You're like, you're like, well, this is done exactly. Yeah, sometimes I just say, fuck it, I'm opening it. But some days I'm like, no, no, no, no, When this is done, you must reward yourself. Paul (04:19) Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. But I do. Usually I do open it on Tuesday then. lol ⁓ Well, absolutely. And we reward ourselves today with a discussion and a conversation about therapy. How fun is that? And we've been wanting to talk about this for a long time, and we're going to have guests soon also on this topic who knows a lot more about this than we do. That's what we kind of held off. And then the other day I ran across a post on Instagram by The Guardian that talked about therapy and especially about therapy in relation to men. And it started with stating one of these fun facts I'd like to quote here that in the UK, men make up only 33 % of the referrals to NHS talking therapies, only one third. If you want to hear some other fun facts, in 2023, 17 % of American men received mental health treatment versus 28.5 of women. That's also a big difference there. Marc (05:03) Mmm. Mmm. Please. 28.5 % of women have seen mental health? No fucking shit. That's crazy. Okay. Paul (05:34) Go to therapy. Yet males account for nearly 80 % of suicides despite being 50 % of the population. So here we go. we know, and about 70 % of the therapists are women, which is also very interesting. So, and I mean, just to make this a little bit more about us, I mean, what is your, how many men do you know that went to therapy? Marc (05:44) Yeah. That I knew. You know, that is such a funny opening question. I got to tell you, I think I know only two. And you're one of them. Paul (06:13) Yeah. Bye to us. Marc (06:19) therapy. Paul (06:21) I want check is maybe is below a handful. It's two, three. Marc (06:29) Yeah, that tracks, roughly that. Paul (06:32) Yeah. And yeah, yeah. Okay. Funny, huh? Why do you think that is? Marc (06:39) Bye. Paul (06:40) ⁓ sorry, sorry, people go... How many women do you know that go to therapy? Marc (06:45) ⁓ seven, eight. It's a multitude. Yeah, it's not even a question. I live in New York. Everyone's got therapists. ⁓ And even the more, I would think I would have more men, honestly, given that, I'm trying to think what happened, because why that number isn't higher. But for sure, the multitude is much higher. What about for you, same? Paul (07:11) Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know lots of women. ⁓ Marc (07:13) I mean, you guys are in Vienna. This is the capital of, you know, of psychotherapy in a way, right? Yeah. It's Freud, you know, Freud. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, the whole upper west, upper east side, it's all by the therapist. Paul (07:16) Of some of it, exactly, exactly. No, no, but I think New York to be honest is probably a little bit more. Yeah. Well, the fun thing about this post was that it then shared eight reasons why they think, you know, men don't go to therapy as often as women do. And I thought it would be fun to just go through them exactly and see actually what's what. And I'm going to read this to you. Marc (07:41) Okay, are we gonna run through it? my god, I'd love that. Paul (07:49) Number one, men are primed for action rather than words. Historically, men's roles centered on work and provision and women's on caregiving. Today, men still tend to be more action oriented and task focused. So what do you think about that? Marc (07:56) Agree. I agree. Fully. Paul (08:07) When you speak more than man, it says when it comes to experiencing the stress, find it more difficult to do, you know. Marc (08:10) I have to go through all eight because I have a lot of probably before I give a I don't want to ruin that like what's happening on six or seven but you know for one totally men are more pro towards action I fully agree 100 percent Paul (08:25) Yeah, then more towards action than words, right? So they just rather do than talk. Yeah. Marc (08:30) 100%. Yeah. think most men, this is a majority. I would say it's probably 70-30 split. I'm definitely on the talker side. Probably you too, because we started a podcast. Yeah, exactly. Paul (08:40) Me too, I mean we're doing a fucking podcast. I find that a weak one to be honest. I give this a 4 out of 10. If you ask me, I Second one. Therapy is feminized. I find that interesting. Women have been more likely to seek professional help in the form of talking therapies and as a result services are often developed through the female lens with an emphasis on talking directly about feelings which can be uncomfortable for men. Marc (08:49) Okay, go. Next. Paul (09:08) Blument, this guy who wrote this thing, says, man often prefer group therapy for its sense of camaraderie and shared experience, allowing connection without being in a spotlight. I find that very interesting. Marc (09:21) I agree with that 100%. That's that. That is interesting. ⁓ I think, okay, I guess I have been serving in group therapy sessions. It's true. Like I've done retreats, that have felt like that. It's fair, fair. And I found that very, very comfortable and interesting. as people were going around and speaking and moving forward, ⁓ you know, as people sought through lines of shared experience, Paul (09:34) Yeah, here you go, that's similar. that's fair. I think that's fair. Marc (09:51) What ⁓ I was taken aback by though is that like I do agree that the feminization of therapy, which I think many men would interpret as talking about your feelings as being weak and that's what women do, men don't do that, right? I mean, that's been around since ages. Paul (10:07) Ages, And I gotta say, we also, in my case, I never knew how to talk about feelings. And I had a couple of great female therapists who really knew what they were doing, ⁓ and who also knew how they were talking to men, and they were really funny, because they always started talking to Marc (10:20) Hmm. Paul (10:27) about very heady things, very cerebral things. And they always got me to cry within 10 minutes. So they knew what they were doing apparently. But they were always saying, men are very much more in their heads than they are in their body and in their feelings. So you need to get them away from their head, but you need to start at the head. That's the entry. You know, if you ask a man, how are you feeling at the beginning of a session, it's going to be very tough for them to answer that. You have to lead them there in a different way. And I found that very interesting, that ⁓ comment. Marc (10:59) You're making you're blowing my mind. I totally agree with that. I totally agree with that, you know. ⁓ Wow. Like it is a sense making exercise that starts literally with the head, I think, you know, before you can get down to the body. It's so true. Paul (11:06) Mm. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's like, as a structure, kind of need to understand also what's going on. And before that, you don't open up to it. And it was very true for me. I always needed to understand what is going on and why I'm feeling this And then I also able to open up to these things. I think that's, I don't give it, you I think it is feminized or maninized or whatever the other word is. don't... Marc (11:28) Mmm. Mm. Mm. Paul (11:43) care so much, Marc (11:44) No, it's good to know that you had to learn how to do that. I think I, I don't know why, maybe that was more natural to me. ⁓ I don't have a good reason why. All right, let's go to the next one. Paul (11:57) Showing vulnerability is risky in a hierarchy. It's about the drive to strive is deeply encoded in man and can stop them getting help when they're down. Man fear that showing vulnerability will lower their status in the eyes of others. Kind of talks against the group setting, but... Marc (12:16) Gosh, man, it makes men feel so pathetic, it's so true though. That's how you get the Trump administration. That's how you get, know, what's that, Andreessen Horowitz, who is basically saying, I don't like, look, introspective, yeah, like, okay. Looking back as for losers, yeah, exactly. what's, you know, what an interesting time. the perspective to not want to get to know yourself. Paul (12:29) ⁓ introspection is for losers basically. Or looking back or something. Yeah. Marc (12:45) But I feel like the, ⁓ or no actually, like the fear of showing weakness is so paramount. think especially the higher up you get. You you want to project that you figured it all out. Paul (12:57) No, and I think what I just said is, but that's it is a why some people probably would never do it in a group setting or why people can only do it in a group setting because they see other people doing it. and I can give you a very concrete our main retreat, a few weeks ago, we were eight and then we were crying, you know, and we showed lots of emotions Marc (13:09) Yeah, more power is distributed. Mmm. Paul (13:21) One of the participants was new to that and he's like, know what? I'm not used to men crying. I have never seen this. You know what I mean? It was really like this and I was really interested. It's like, I feel really empowered by seeing this and I kind of opened the door for him, just as an example. Marc (13:29) So, so, can I, can Okay, however. Can I, okay, but who reinforces that? So I just wanna, I wanna bridge that with another anecdote, right? So ⁓ I was in the hospital on Monday with my dad, ⁓ and my mom was there. And my dad had gone through a lot of tests, he'll be fine, but they still have to understand what's going on with his heart and lowers blood pressure, stuff like this, right? And then he was turned to me, he's like, Paul (13:47) Okay, go ahead. Marc (14:09) did you know you were born in this hospital? And it just sort of dawned on him, you know? And he just started to get emotional, like thinking of like time, you know, and just like how I was born there and then he started like, you know, just moved to tears, et cetera. And my mom was like, Wolfie, don't cry, you know, it's okay. Like she was just like trying to stop him from telling him to control his tears. And it made me wonder, like, you know, is that an antiquated, Paul (14:18) Beautiful. Marc (14:38) It dropped me back, but was that an antiquated form of projecting masculinity to your son? I don't know. Paul (14:45) I mean, of course, I think it's kind of like the one on one of ⁓ very basic therapy that everyone tells you. In Germany, we have this thing when your mother say, Indiana can't catch me. I'm not very politically correct, especially in the US context. But that's what people would say. You don't cry. There is no pain as a young boy. So you get taught that you don't. Marc (14:52) Yeah, your mother's, of course. Paul (15:13) You know, you don't show emotions. That's not what you do. I don't think our generation did as much as the generation of our fathers or, you know, let alone their fathers. So I think, you know, this is opening up. And when you think about your boys, I would never tell them not to cry. And I've been told many times not to cry or even to say, know, you you know, if you continue crying, what the fuck are you crying for? Marc (15:28) Mm. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Paul (15:38) So I mean, I think this is pretty clear where this shit is coming from. So I'm on this. I'm this one. I'm giving this an absolutely seven, eight out of 10. The better ones, I think, are coming. The fourth one, OK, I think it's kind of redundant, the age old go it alone mentality. Marc (15:42) Hmm. Great. Paul (15:55) Yeah, I don't know. To me, it's very similar to the first one. Fair enough. Marc (15:59) Interesting. I, um, none of that is surprise. Yeah. Boring. Paul (16:06) Boring. Let's move on. Okay, five. Emotional claustrophobia. With men, the expression of strong emotion can often only be tolerated in bite-sized chunk. They are often raised to approach difficulties mechanically. Identify, act, solve. This is helpful when a problem is practical, but when it is emotional, they can become unstuck. Mm-hmm. I find that hard to relate to. Marc (16:33) Me too. Paul (16:34) Let's move on. Now this one I like. wait until crisis point. On the whole, men tend to have less patience and want a quick fix. As a result, the threshold for action tends to be higher and thus men will often allow things to fester and become worse before they seek help. This is so obvious. 100%. 100%. I mean, I am the biggest case in point. Marc (16:35) Next. Yeah, next. Obviously, obviously, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (17:03) of this and many are. And I've been wondering about this. I've been talking to lots of coaches who've become friends and acquaintances on how they actually acquire their clients, especially male clients. And they asked me and I said, you know what? think, yeah, exactly. It is some point of crisis. I think the chance to get a man into therapy without a severe crisis is one out of 10. Marc (17:16) it's burnout, broken, yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Paul (17:33) What do you think in your experience? Marc (17:35) I, can only say it's the most obvious. It's what drives people, that's when they realize they need help. It's a lot like, gosh, it would be so fun to do this with a woman, ⁓ to understand the key differences. But to me, it's like, men are going alone until they can't anymore. That's the general idea, right? till something breaks inside them and they keep it inside and then they just go crazy. Paul (18:03) Yeah, exactly. ⁓ No, to me, I think this crisis point is something that is so, I find it really difficult because I learned it myself in a hard way. And it was at a point where I just didn't know anymore how to get out of this. And I thought, OK, now this is probably the point where you go see someone in the mess I maneuvered myself into. ⁓ Marc (18:04) Right? It's just like kind of Paul (18:28) By the way, didn't help immediately, but I still kept on going because it was still the best single best option I had on my hands. But before that, to be honest, in the build up to this, and there was a build up to this in hindsight to the crisis, I would have never felt that I had a crisis coming in. Although probably to the outsider, it was already pretty clear and people probably I don't think anybody told me, but even if they had told me, I would have told them, what the fuck is your problem? know, fuck off. Marc (18:45) Right. Right. I thought you were about to have a mental breakdown. Yeah, that was pretty queer. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (19:00) To me, but thanks for helping me. No, it's true you did, that you did. I think, okay, shortage of role models, that's number seven. That's true, I think that is true. Marc (19:03) No, I'm just fucking with you. No, I did help you. I talked to you all the time there. I'm being a flip. I'm being an idiot. Okay, I 100 % agree to that. ⁓ We're not told that that's okay. ⁓ period, but what are you you're looking? Yeah. Paul (19:29) period. No, I'm thinking because I'm thinking do I think of movies when when when men actually go to therapy and how this is in general depicted. Usually it is because they've done something extremely stupid and then they are ordered to go to therapy or they come out and they have some PTSD because they were war heroes or whatever and then they were scarred and had a trauma and they had to go there and they don't open up. Marc (19:36) Mm-hmm. going to pick out four types of movies of where therapists go on. like, the first I would say is like, okay, so the first is like the Woody Allen type of movie, right? Woody Allen, know, like, you know, he's always seen as therapist since the 70s and it's always been kind of a normalized thing. know, very bit of New York Jewish kind of culture, you know, you see a therapist, it's just the natural thing to talk about your problem. The second thing I was going to say is like, I'm going just big hits, like, Paul (20:06) Here we go, awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (20:28) The Sopranos, have you ever seen that show? One of the all-time great shows. Why does he go to therapy? It's because he has panic attacks, being a mob boss, right? And so he's sent there to like, I think he faints. Paul (20:30) Yeah. But it's also a little bit of an ironic take on it, right? I mean, it is a... Marc (20:45) Yeah, well that's how it's introduced, right? Like he's deeply skeptical, right? But the doctors, like you might, like a trigger for panic attacks could be how you're perceiving the world. I just rewatched it recently. The ironic humor one is the analyze this, the Billy Crystal, doesn't De Niro kind of does a version of that, Where it's the tough guy, but like. Paul (21:08) That's great. Marc (21:10) And then you got the Matt Damon, which is also like the brilliant mind that needs someone to talk to because he's a loner and doesn't have the role models to have the bravery to move forward. In each of these examples, with the exception of the Woody Allen example, Like, Woody Allen makes it just a normal fact of life. You you talk to your therapist. know, there's this girl I'm dating. This is a friend. It's a different perspective, et cetera. And all those other examples, to your point, to go to Hollywood. like it is a stigma, right? That they are overcoming to attend, to go to a therapist, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (21:43) Well, A, there is a crisis, right? I mean, think the crisis is the starting point. And then B, it is a stigma, right? Everyone is like, what? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? Marc (21:52) Yeah, this is for pussies. Don't tell anyone I'm here. I gotta sneak out the back door and this kind of stuff, right? Paul (21:56) Yeah, so yeah, mean no wonder there's a shortage of roll walls. Let's move on because we're almost there. ⁓ To eight, fear of what they may find. Therapy is about confronting the things we would prefer to avoid. It might uncover long-buried pain, guilt or grief. What do you think? Marc (22:07) Ha ha ha! 100 % that's true. 100 % that's do people want to understand what made them them? Or do they want to push that aside and build on top, you know, of those building blocks? Paul (22:29) I think it's even simpler than that. I I give this thing a 12 out of 10. And it has another quote here and it says, the fear that the whole structure might collapse if you start pulling on the threads is something everyone must overcome when they seek help, blah, blah, blah. And to me, and why I say simpler, it's not so much about do I want to confront this or do I want that? It's like, I just don't want to rock the fucking boat. Marc (22:31) Ooh. Hmm. Paul (22:54) And I can relate to this so much because, and I've told this story many times, I remember exactly the point in time, I still had two kids, I was on vacation with two very small kids. I had this very short moment where I read a book on the beach, And it was Stephen Covey's seven habits of highly effective people. And it was, I think, the second habit. where he talks about, what will be on your gravestone, And I thought, Jesus, I would really have to think about this. I would really have to think about my purpose. And then I put the book away and I thought and said to myself, if I continue reading this I will probably have to rethink my whole life and what I'm doing. I'm not going to do this right now. I don't have the time. I have two young kids. I need to work. I need to build a career. Fuck this shit. Marc (23:28) Mm-hmm. Paul (23:43) It was exactly that. I was afraid I would have to completely question everything I've done so far, which I did five years later in a much worse position, by the way. But yeah, Marc (23:58) Yeah. Can I ask you, so look, as someone who's never formerly experienced therapy, I've always wondered what it would be like. And I had no doubt that I would be benefiting from it, if I'd gone through it. I think it's just a natural thing. But can you tell me a little bit about your journey of kind of going in there? know you already shared it was during a bit of a breaking point for you, right? ⁓ kind of your journey and approach to it, like how you went in and how you come out. And I assume you're a fan. Paul (24:34) Yeah, I mean, and a little disclaimer because there's so many different types and things, but I kind of think I went, I started with a classic of what they talk, you know, say it's talk therapy. So you go to a therapist, you basically sit on a couch or on a nice comfortable chair and you talk to someone. And I think the number one thing that I always liked and I still do is that you take an hour and this hour is just about you and someone has to listen to your shit. Marc (25:03) I love it. Paul (25:05) Which never happens. It never fucking happens. It doesn't happen when you talk to a friend, really, unless he's a very good friend who knows what he's doing. It certainly never happens with your partner, Because everyone is interjecting their shit and is blah, blah, blah. So that is the one nice thing already. And then it's obviously, know, and then it depends on kind of what is the method and the systematic behind this on what issues you're working on and... Marc (25:18) Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Paul (25:32) And how do you go into these things? But to me, that is the one thing on a regular basis, you are talking about your shit and you're trying to express it. You have someone who is not judging. have someone who is asking and probing, ⁓ and you reflect. I think for people like you and me who are, you know, quite also, I think brain heavy and like to reflect and talk, you uncover things very quickly and you understand them. And that is nice. So that's kind of how it started to me. Marc (25:39) Mm-hmm. Mmm. Mm. Paul (26:02) So that's a nice, it's nice, it's a nice, you know, self experience. You talk about yourself. It's also a little bit of a nice, artistic thing in a sense, because, you know, you talk about yourself, you you analyze yourself, you know, you get to hear someone who tells you that's normal or that's not normal. So it's kind of, yeah. Marc (26:15) I think building self-awareness of who you are is always a good thing, right? Paul (26:18) Exactly. What I found very interesting that at one point it gets so to a point where I realized very quickly that just talking about things and even understanding what might be the drivers of my patterns and what happened to me in my life and nothing tragic, but everyone has a story and however we grew up and what happened in our lives shapes our behaviors. understanding that is great. But if you actually want to change something, understanding is really only the first step. And just through understanding and forming a will to do something, to me that never did much. And that's, think, it gets really interesting. And that's why I find that all the talking and the talking from a certain point on is a little bit, let's say the utility curve flattens significantly. Marc (27:10) Got it. Got it. Helpful, huh? Paul (27:11) Yeah. So that's kind of it. Yeah. Do you know? Yeah. Go ahead. Marc (27:15) You know, but I want to emphasize the point here. Like, it's so interesting. I've always been curious about it and I'm going to reiterate. I was like, I'll wait for something to break till I need it. You know? And it's just, it's such an interesting thing. Yeah. It's like, you know, I would love to like, sounds great. An hour a week talking about myself. Awesome. And, ⁓ learn something about Yeah. Yeah. Put your brain to the gym. So cool. Right? Like who doesn't want that? Paul (27:24) Exactly, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. It's like going to the gym. It's almost like, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I guess, you know, breaking is one thing and I guess, you know, sometimes people, you know, have things in their careers that they want to go differently or are not happy and so on. think there's lots of triggers for that. And I guess you'd need a trigger. I think it's nice to have a trigger because you want to have something to work on. Right. Marc (27:58) Do you think we can solve the, the Manosphere problem as outlined in our two episodes ago by equipping everything with mass therapy? Really? Paul (28:07) 100 % Yeah, but I don't think my therapy works. I think it's a lot of work. That's the problem. But yes, I absolutely think so. Absolutely think so. I mean, I 100 % think so. Marc (28:14) ⁓ Interesting. Because all those guys in those movies, like, mean, they're clearly, like, several, like, a therapist away from not being the assholes who they are, right? I just feel like to help them understand their problems, their own traumas, right? He's a lifetime of therapy, to be honest, but yeah, I got you. Paul (28:30) I mean, listen, mean, Trump is ⁓ many hours of therapy is a way of, you know, not being the lifetime. I don't think you can make it up in his lifetime. ⁓ 100 % man, 100%. And I think, you know, I think maybe kind of a cheat code for men is the whole coaching scene I find and professional coaches, because I know way more men that go to professional coaches and a very good professional coach is actually also a therapist in a sense. Marc (28:56) Totally, totally. Paul (29:00) And you can't just work on your professional side because who you are as a person obviously shapes you as a professional. So I think those are and more and more, I know lots of people who went there because they wanted to perform better. And when you then find, I hope, a good coach, they will go, I think, into the weeds pretty quickly. And that's interesting. Marc (29:22) I would like to, that makes a lot of sense. I would like to add ⁓ one thing to that list there. ⁓ And I think I experienced it myself this weekend, ⁓ is men don't have the vocabulary to understand what's happening to them. And I'll make it real for a second. So I attended, and we're gonna have her on our podcast ⁓ in a bit, but I attended a session called Decode Your Emotion. Paul (29:30) Go ahead. Marc (29:52) by ⁓ Dr. Yasmin Saad, this was a bit for work. And basically the exercise was how can I, like, she takes like, you name what you're feeling and she takes you in an exercise of breaking down the root cause of that feeling, right? And I was surrounded mostly by women, were a other guys there, and one of these women said, I'm feeling frustrated, right? And I kind of leapt on that word, she's feeling frustrated, like actually, that's how I'm feeling right now. Paul (30:05) Mmm. Marc (30:22) And I couldn't express why I was angry the past several days, right? I mean, was a lot of like lack of time, it lack of management, was being an ass sometimes, or jerk sometimes, not bad, but to my wife, to my kids, just snippy and like this. And I couldn't understand why that source of anger was. It was actually frustration. And I feel like... the penny dropped for me, was like, God, if I only had that word that I'm frustrated, right, I would be able to express that to my wife and to my kid, and then I could start to then, you know, do something about it, right? But I couldn't name it. And I think women are very good at naming what they're feeling, and men are terrible at it. Paul (30:52) Yeah, yeah. Absolutely 100 % agree and and this is where things really changed for me is when I found a Coach I think he calls himself and we talked to him you harness right gave me the the vocabulary sheet of of naming my feelings and he would also say you know frustration Yes, is it is you name a feeling but how does it actually feel? What happens in your body when you feel frustrated and I was like, the fuck do you mean? I feel frustrated Marc (31:31) That's true. Exactly. Paul (31:36) You know, fuck off. I was like, but what, sensations? I said, what do you mean sensations? Yeah, does it twitch? Does it tense? Where does it tense? You know, is it cold? So I had this, it was like back in school and French vocabulary sheet and I had all these words and he made me really re-learn those words and describe what my body is doing when I have a certain feeling or not. So I 100 % agree to what you say. It's incredible. Incredibly powerful. Marc (31:37) Yeah, exactly. I'm tense a little bit. Incredible. Paul (32:05) release. So yeah, I think this coaching thing might be something for men that is fun. And then there's lots of other things. I mean, these, I love those main groups, you know, when they come together, I think it solves a lot of things about, you know, the role model, the sharing, the seeing others. I think that's awesome. And yeah, there's lots of things. Marc (32:06) Hmm. Huge advocate of that. Totally. Well, listen, if I'm gonna, when I get back on healthcare, or maybe my wife's healthcare is good ones, sorry, I don't know what my wife's healthcare offers. My old job used to have that, I never took advantage of it, but now I want to, based on this conversation. Yeah, yeah. Paul (32:36) You should have, Yeah. Yeah. And then there's so much fun stuff out there, but we're going to talk about this maybe with your friend very soon. All the somatic experiences and all these things you can do out there. It's just really, I think if there's one takeaway, if you feel somewhere inside of you or you've got feeling tazium, maybe it would be cool to do it. Just fucking do it. Yeah. Don't wait for five years. Just do it. You know, it's not, it's not going to break the bank. It's not going to do anything. No one's going to think of you badly. In the worst case, you finally had an hour to talk and this guy's paid to listen to you. You know, it's really, there were things in life than that to break it down like this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, an hour of the dentist is much, think of it like the dentist. Actually, if you thought about it like the dentist, you go to a checkup twice a year, it costs about the same. Marc (33:21) True true funny. Paul (33:35) Here you go. Marc (33:35) Dude, if this can just clean and flush my mind to focus on what matters, that's already great. I know, I to put my mind on a diet. All right. Paul (33:40) God, that would be awesome. That would be awesome. man. Interesting. It's so nuanced, this topic, and so broad. I love it. I think it's an amazing profession, too. And I really also a big shout out to all these people who do this job and who do it great, because it must be tough on the other side. It must be really tough to sit there. mean, it must, you know, it can be, we can joke about this a lot now, I think. And I think I see it in your eyes. Where do you want to go with this? But I want to keep it serious. But please. Marc (34:03) So, yes. Well, no, no, no, I was just thinking, do you remember that great movie, Something About Mary? Paul (34:14) Yes, I do. Marc (34:16) There's this scene where Ben Stiller is talking about his problems and this therapist is just making faces behind his back and etc. just talking and then says, well, you know, it's me. It's like, have you ever considered your homosexual? ⁓ He's like, I'm just going to put that linger. ⁓ Back in the day, you could make those jokes anyway. Exactly. All right. Paul (34:30) I love it how you have all these movie references in your head today. ⁓ Exactly, this is exactly what I'm talking about man. Alright dude, nice one. Listen, most idiotic thing of the week. Marc (34:46) This is good, it was fun. Different, I like it. You go, dude. Paul (34:56) Listen, I just had one tonight. was also on Instagram, my own ex or someone, and I saw that the Intel stock is up to $126. And then, dude, and I thought, hey, great, I still have this stock. So I look at my portfolio, I sold it at 36. Not even a year ago, like nine months ago. Fuck this shit. No, I'm. Marc (35:05) That's so fucking crazy, I know. Listen, whenever it comes to the market, I'm an idiot. Like I'm still holding on. It's so crazy. Paul (35:24) God, I mean, listen, I think the idiotic thing is actually looking at it and exactly, and feeling stupid about it. So I shouldn't, I think that's the idiotic thing. So that's mine. The Terminator, I've been struggling to find a real Terminator this week, but maybe enlighten me. Marc (35:29) Yeah, you shouldn't. Oh my God. Okay, well listen mine is actually funny enough you're inspired me to say something else stock related there were at least five buys I was gonna I was gonna make I was like, earnings is coming up, right and Like I should just look I bet they're gonna be mom's I should just buy them right now, etc There'll be a dump dump and then and then I Had that page up and then I had a page of a wine sale up from Astor wines, right? I Was like I was like, ooh Rioja 40 % off Paul (36:07) Guess what you did? Did you? Did you buy some wine? Marc (36:11) Exactly, I some wine instead of making myself rich. It was so stupid. And that's Mark in a nutshell sometimes. Terminator of the Week is, I got a shout out this bar called Overstory in New York City. It was still a little touristy, but I got to tell you, the views there are so epic for an amazing cocktail out there and just looking at the sun on a beautiful day is just, it's a hard one to beat. Paul (36:17) ⁓ here we go, here we go. Marc (36:41) And so overstory, check it out if you're there. It's a little touristy, but put that aside. The view just more than enough takes it up for it. Paul (36:43) Nice. Awesome. Yeah, I was also going to say something very superficial because I love the weather and I love actually Vienna. So my shot I would go to all of Vienna this week was really beautiful. Really nice place and tons of tourists by the way. But yeah, it's starting to get really live. Marc (37:03) Yeah, they're Yeah, yeah, fun. All right, dude. Well, this is amazing seeing you as always. Paul (37:09) All right, Mark. Take care. Ciao. Marc (37:13) Take care, bye.