The Money Talk: Lifestyle Creep and Defining "Enough" | Ep 26

Marc (00:11) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you are new to this podcast, this is a podcast about the things you start thinking about when you're in, and we got to admit it, midlife. You will hear some killer stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out. In short, the things that shaped us and continue to move us. And we hope there's something for you in there as well. My name is Mark. I'm joining from you in New York and... ⁓ I'd love to welcome Paul to the podcast. Hey, Paul. Paul Fattinger (00:44) Hey Mark, how's it going? What a beautiful intro. I'm like, I'm all tuned in. I'm all tuned in for today's episode about money, money, money. Marc (00:50) I had to center myself. Yes, yes, a complex, a complex topic if there ever was one. Before we get into it, how are you? How was your weekend? I think you were doing some epic shit. Paul Fattinger (01:09) I came back from a three-day bender in the mountains, was basically skiing from nine o'clock in the morning, beautiful blue skies, we did some beautiful ski touring, and then celebrating the fact that we had such a beautiful day in nature, what nature provided us with when you make grapes until the sun went down and further. Marc (01:12) Ha ha. That's right. Ha Paul Fattinger (01:39) to go home basically then in ski boots three nights in a row. So I haven't done this in a while and I don't think I would have been able to do it any longer. I think I left it all there. It was good. Marc (01:44) Wow. So but I a three day a three day bender is a proper one. So so well done. And you ⁓ Paul Fattinger (01:54) Yeah, it's a proper band. I mean, we got also, you could tell we got older and it was a bit, little bit more civil than in the past. But this is the reason I'm having a nice, what is it called? It's a yogi tea, biologisch, seelen balsam, balm for the soul. That's kind of what I'm having. You know, I'm having, ⁓ yeah, yeah. Marc (02:12) my god, really? That's your sponsor? My god. Well I'm jealous you were like and Paul Fattinger (02:20) That is my sponsor. I saw yours before, it looked a bit more interesting than mine. Who are you sponsored? Marc (02:24) That's true. So I'm drinking, I'm drinking the rest of ⁓ my family's wine, this Pomenock Minimalist Chardonnay, which is always really nice. Yeah, Yeah, Beautiful. Very nice flavor. Too much sugar, it's okay. Paul Fattinger (02:33) nice. this one is my favorite. Chardonnay. ⁓ it's very nice. Very nice. ⁓ Yeah. We had some nice wines on the weekend, man. I should send you some photos. Some nice big bottles. Yeah. Like a six liter baby of a Rieslingsmaragd. Very nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It tastes much better when the bottle is bigger. I'll send you a picture. It's a bit ridiculous, but it was fun. Marc (02:46) and had a great Oh really? Oh my god. Vajal, okay, great. Just make me a little bit more jealous. Yeah, can I tell you the highlight of my weekend, which is just sad and appalling? As opposed to last weekend, which was a bit of my kind of launch bender, the highlight was watching F1 with Brad Pitt last night, because the kids went to bed early. Paul Fattinger (03:14) Yeah, you should be. And how was it? Marc (03:30) You know, it's, you know like when you, you know exactly what you're watching, you know there's a formula and yet I think that's the credit the movie deserves. It's like you still feel it, you're still like raw, the filming of it's awesome, it's totally unrealistic and crazy, you know. But is it fun? Absolutely. Is it like? Paul Fattinger (03:36) Mmm. Okay. Okay, was, I thought about watching it on the movie, on the plane back from South Africa. And then it was too long for me. I like, I want to be asleep by the time this thing is in second gear. But... ⁓ Marc (04:02) yeah, well no, it's the kind of movie that deserves a big screen. And your headphones, I mean like the F1 screens are like bananas, so it's cool. and it's bougie and it shows about all of the kind of good life and all that kind of fun stuff. Paul Fattinger (04:07) That's also what I thought, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Awesome. Yeah, I had enough of that, I really have to say. Enough of the good life in the last three. The good life in the bougie kind of sense that you're almost a little bit embarrassed to talk about, you know. Maybe I have to cut some things out. exactly, thank you so much because it was lots of fun and I enjoy this once a year very responsibly. No one got hurt. All is good. Just want to say this for our dear audience here. Marc (04:23) Right. The de-boos you're kind of good like. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I'll cut you off exactly from your talk there. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good, good. I know they care about that and that's, I'm glad that you know that. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a, it's a nice dovetail between watch F1 cars and, ⁓ and then skiing and mountain skiing and Albrecht skiing. Exactly. To talk about this conversation's money. Paul Fattinger (04:48) Exactly, I wanna get some hate comments on this shit, you know? Yeah, splurging in the mountains. exactly, exactly. Talking about champagne problems quite literally actually, quite figuratively here. Marc (05:07) about money and you know, it's funny, I was thinking, gosh, there's so many dimensions into it, into this. And ⁓ it's January, people are saving, people are asking themselves, okay, like where do we want to be in a year from now? And I, you know, I think people are making big bold moves, some aren't, you know, it's an interesting time in the world. And I want to start and ground us in this conversation by something I've been meditating on, which is kind of an Uber question about ⁓ when is enough enough and that's only one part of this story. Okay, so I was thinking about a way into this conversation and I was reminded that about two and a half months ago, I was out in Silicon Valley and ⁓ meeting a ⁓ colleague for breakfast. And it was one of those places where he's sharing with me about 10, 12 million to billion exchange hands per, you know. per day on any given day there. And he knows, it's crazy. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of the Rosewood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as we're sitting there enjoying like $40 avocado toast and this kind of stuff, he's saying, you knew my background and you knew I was like startups and that kind of thing. It's like, know, your thing and just Europeans in general, you what's funny about them? For them, 100 million is enough. Paul Fattinger (06:05) Which is crazy. That's that famous hotel, right? This thing. Yeah. Marc (06:31) I was like, know, they got 100 million, yeah, yeah, yeah, when they get 100 million, yeah, we're gonna get there. But he said, you when they get 100 million, they just wanna fuck off, you know, to their chateau, get their castle, do the same arid stuff, et cetera. Americans, when they get to 100 million, you know what they think? How do I get to a billion? And they focus all their time on that. When they get to a billion, that's not enough. And then they really wanna thinking, okay, like once that's billion. Paul Fattinger (06:33) Absolutely, I agree. agree. Even less, I would say. Marc (06:57) and you want the tens to the 20s, they're really thinking about the level moves and investments in general, rational wealth. And he said, and he turned to me, said, know, the cost of doing that isn't really understood, you know, like already what it takes to get to a hundred million as a startup founder is an unbelievable taxing kind of thing, you know. When you go decide to go from 100 million to a billion, you're not seeing your family, you're not doing much else than that. That is now, your life, and then elsewhere. He's like, so I was like, I really admire ⁓ some of the European mindset. And then he said, and it brought up in some other questions, it's, and he was very honest, like, that's not really in me. and we should kind of kick off this conversation by saying, this is one of, this is. Paul Fattinger (07:43) Hmm Marc (07:53) of privilege to say the least between us, just like we're even talking about that, even though I don't think none of us have nowhere near that kind of net worth, but as we're kind of exploring, yeah, yeah, as we're kind of, yeah, exactly. Though it would be fun to do that, but it's just the reality of it. yeah. So I think, as a way in just to this, I just thought like, we are in a time where, Paul Fattinger (07:59) Not even close. can cross away a few zeros there. ⁓ More than one. ⁓ Yeah. Marc (08:21) The 20s are obviously supposed to be about accumulating and finding your way. We obviously we've been in business school. The 30s are about finding your career, landing on some kind of notion, accumulating some kind of wealth. The 40s, you have your kids, you have your house, you have a car, and the traditional tension I always find among my group and I'm curious about yours is that the goalposts keep moving for them. It's like what was supposed to be enough or absurd is now like, wait, I can get more or I can do more and I can do more. I want to pause there first and ask you, is that something that you're seeing or have experienced across your group? Paul Fattinger (08:56) You brought up a few things here, right? The first one, just also kind of want to deep dive on the cultural notion that you made and the difference between Americans and Europeans in general. And I guess you could generalize this. I'm wondering if there's any kind of statistic about this, in fact, but that would be really interesting. But we can maybe look it up later and then share. I guess it's true in a sense, but maybe it's also a bit more Marc (09:04) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (09:26) not so much culturally, it's like the system. think capitalism is purer in a sense in the US, and you also maybe have to make it more to feel safety, because a lot of safety is provided in most of the European states by social welfare and stuff like this. ⁓ Maybe it's also easier to enjoy life in Europe with less money. Be very honest. And that's kind of it. But I know it's interesting. That one's interesting. But yes, I mean, the question, what is enough? When you said 100 million and 2 billion, I was like, if I had 100 million, fuck this shit, man, I'm out. And I guess really, I mean, I don't want to shortcut this conversation, but if I had 10, I'd do the same. ⁓ And so what I do realize for myself, and I don't want to speak too much about my group, that yes, the gold Marc (09:52) No, I would agree. Hahaha! Paul Fattinger (10:20) host is always moving and one of the things I am eternally guilty for is the grass is always green and I've said this before, which means there is always more. And the problem about having especially I think materialistic goals is that once you have achieved them, you want something else or the next thing and it's just the way it is. It's the way it is. Marc (10:22) Hmm. Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (10:46) And so it is the goalpost is always moving, which kind of means you never really advance. And so there is something that's at least that's my my perception of it. And I feel with a lot of people, not all some in my bracket are kind of realizing this and are like, hey, wait a second. You know, the goalpost has actually moved to a point where I'm much better off than maybe, you know, my parents were. Marc (11:14) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (11:15) still not happy what's going on. Most of the time that's people who also went through personal stuff, know, maybe relatives, parents dying, a divorce, know, shit like this that makes you think. And when you start thinking about this, you start thinking about how you spend your time. And now I'm closing the loop to what you said, right, that that marginal cost that it has on your life, when you go from income level A to B. Marc (11:37) Hmm Paul Fattinger (11:41) And now you can define, you said it's from 10, from 100 to a billion. think, you know, most of our listeners, I don't think can relate, neither can I. But I can say, you know, going from X hundred thousand to, you know, X times 400,000, for example, that's a lot of work you have to put in. So, and I can relate to that 100%. Marc (11:48) I it was funny though. Yeah, that that resonates and it will and it's Paul Fattinger (12:05) How did it change for you? Did anything change or how is that? Marc (12:10) think like one thing I've observed is that for many who have experienced this kind of goalpost phenomenon, know, of it keep moving and moving and moving. They who are totally capable of having a few extra zeros in their bank account have taken their step, their feet off the gas. Totally across my friendship now. Yeah, maybe, yeah. Paul Fattinger (12:33) really? Like me. Also, Marc (12:38) Totally, no, no, it's not, Paul Fattinger (12:39) I guess to a certain extent also myself. Marc (12:41) yeah, yeah, I would totally put you in that camp. And very close friends of mine who are, I mean, they're fine, it's not like that. like, it's, they're, the wisdom of knowing it's not worth it for them is, the marginal cost is so vibrating. Paul Fattinger (12:53) Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. You know, there is and I know you also looked something up, but I want to share this with you because I read it today and I thought it's such an interesting story. I'm sure you remember that that study out there and that we've also learned and I think even in in university or at the NBA that from a certain level of income onwards, happiness doesn't increase anymore. Marc (13:18) my God, we're going to quote the same one. Yes. think it was, ⁓ go ahead. Paul Fattinger (13:20) But listen, Kahneman, was in fact, it was in fact Kahneman who wrote this amazing book, Thinking Fast and Slow and got a Nobel Prize for it, which is a book that I've never managed to read because it's so fucking dense. it basically for everyone. No, is, is, it is really. I think I got to page 56 and then I had to shoot myself. But basically it's about, you know, it's about the limbic system and our, you know, the more reptile brain and the more thinking brain and later developed and. Marc (13:28) Mm. Mm-hmm. It's on my bookshelf. I was looking at it today. I was like, should read that. Paul Fattinger (13:50) And the really interesting thing about it, which why I want to read it is actually the effect on behaviors. And it was the foundation of behavioral science and also how we do marketing and stuff like this. Anyways, guy did this study. Only that 10 years later, another guy came around who did a similar study where he used an app and polled, I think 30, 40,000 people across a longer time span and asked them, ⁓ you happy during the day or not? Marc (13:57) Mmm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (14:18) And from this then inferred that actually quite the opposite was true, that the more money you have, the happier you are. And then something very interesting happened. I don't know if you've got that far also in your research. They came together and said, hey, let's, let's settle this shit. So they did kind of like an academia show off and they got a third person and they kind of reviewed all their data. And then they had a finding, which I don't know if that's the same finding that you found out with your research. Is that? Marc (14:43) I'm on the I'm on the edge of my seat. What was the finding? Paul Fattinger (14:48) Here go. The finding was actually the following, that for a certain amount of the population, about 15%, the chronically unhappy people, right, they actually don't get happier beyond $100,000, which was the equivalent of the 75, 10 years ago. I mean, below 100k, you know, every increment really does something, but these people are so fucking miserable. And I'm saying this jokingly, it actually, most of them, I think, are, you know, Marc (14:56) Mm-hmm. Yup, yup. There's nothing that can help them. Paul Fattinger (15:16) They have a disease, they suffer from depression and stuff, so it's not to make fun of, you know? And then I would say the fat middle, about 55 to 60%, normally happy people, actually their ⁓ level of happiness increases linearly with how much money they have. Okay? And then there's actually very happy people, like people who are just generally fucking floating through life. Marc (15:33) Mm. Paul Fattinger (15:42) And they actually get exponentially happier the more money they have because it actually, no, because they don't, they're not worried about the things that come with it. They see it as an opportunity to really fulfill, you know, to fulfill their dreams and wishes and to really contribute and do something in this world. And now comes a big caveat. And I was really surprised about this. And I asked my Germanize like, are you really sure? I went to another tool and said, I mean, I can double check this. And the other tool then told me the caveat of all of this is there is Marc (15:56) Mmm. Mmm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (16:12) There is correlation, so it's scientifically and statistically proven. However, the difference between an income of 15,000 and an income, and now I have to lie, but I think it was 100,000 or maybe 200,000 500,000 is only five points on a scale of 100. So it makes you happier. Technically, that's true. The statement more money makes you happier is true, but more money only makes you 1 % happier. You know, just to Marc (16:31) Wow, really. Paul Fattinger (16:42) put it into some numbers and not 100 % happier. There are other factors, that's the next meaning of it, that have a much higher influence on your happiness than money. So yes, more is better and makes you happier, but you move from an 88 to an 89, congrats. While if you probably spent more time with your parents or your kids, you would move from an 88 to a 95. That's kind of the whole takeaway from this. Marc (17:09) Do you actually think that if you spend more time with your parents and your kids, they're going to move from an 88 to a 95? Paul Fattinger (17:13) No. Then the question is also when do you measure happiness, right? On the deathbed, right? Looking back or in the exact moment, like the moment we had before when you had to carry out your crying kid out of the room who didn't want to leave, right? Thanks for that extra time that increased my happiness by minus 25 points. Marc (17:15) Hahaha Yeah, exactly. You should measure my happiness at 5.30 in the morning. Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (17:34) No, sorry, that was a very long thing, but I thought it's interesting. take it with yes, more money makes you happy. point number two, doesn't really matter because there are other things that have a higher impact on that. Marc (17:44) Okay, however, I think if, here's an interesting idea. Sure, of course, look, if you're miserable in your marriage and your kids are assholes and your job sucks, like, yeah, more money will, like, it's better to correct that than give you more money, that I buy 100%. However, if all those are in order, and you gave me a seven ⁓ zero check as a lifestyle. on an annual factor, would be, guarantee you, I would be very happy and happier. Not that I'm unhappy, I'm just telling you, like I just, you know, go. Paul Fattinger (18:17) Yeah. And that's not untrue. And that is not untrue. However, ⁓ I think there's two things that are true for me. So one is I would absolutely lie if I said that I never think about money to the point where I can tell you if something, if I can't sleep and I want to think about something nice, I think about what I would do with five million euros. know? Yeah. Marc (18:45) Really? That's your fall asleep dream? Paul Fattinger (18:47) One of Marc (18:48) Wow. Paul Fattinger (18:49) many, yeah, one of many. I could, so I don't, I'm not afraid to admit that. So it is something that is on my mind and I think about how, you know, I can make more. And I think it takes up an undue amount of head space, even in my very, very privileged situation that I'm in, very. However, I also... Marc (19:06) Mm. Paul Fattinger (19:15) know and have realized for myself that if I now and I know and luckily the way my career went, I would have options to go out there and kill it and make lots of it and maybe make those dreams that I have at night on my pillow true. But the cost it would have on my life right now are tremendous. you know what I always say to you and I said, you know, the most perishable thing in my life is the age of my kids. With my 11 year old, I basically already have the goodbye phase, which is very sweet, but I know it will come to an abrupt end and go over the cliff and end in terrible puberty. So the oldest one is already basically, you know, he's going to turn 12, you know, by 12 you have spent 80 % of your time with your kids, blah, blah. We've talked about this and so on. So, so I'm already basically through with a third, almost 25 % of the time with my kids. So I see that and I don't see how. Marc (20:01) I know, I know. Paul Fattinger (20:13) how more money is gonna make up for that. While I am living a life right now that is beautiful where I can go skiing for three days and have fun like this. So man, what is it that is more? Is it that you're going for a more expensive vacation, that you're going for a more expensive watch, a nicer car? Because the, know, yeah. It varies, man, it varies. It varies from... Marc (20:23) Mmm. Okay, can you take us into your $5 million dream for a second? I'm just curious. you know, then I, okay. Paul Fattinger (20:38) When I was into cars, how would my dream garage look like? What would be the five cars I would buy? ⁓ How would the house would look like that I my dream house and where would it be? know, shit like this. Nothing crazy. Sometimes it gets a bit more professional where I think which percentage would I put into what asset class? What do I need to get a certain passive income? So, you know how my brain works. Marc (20:42) Okay. Okay. Mm, mm. Got it. That's what I need. That's what I need you by my side. Okay, so I have a different, this conversation is actually giving me a bit of an insight. I think if you're clearer on your, purpose is the wrong word, on the kind of impact that you want to have that transcends just raising a good family and living a good life, nothing wrong with that, I think more money is very useful. So for example, Paul Fattinger (21:28) Absolutely. Marc (21:29) So for example, if I wanted to bring more creativity out in the world, I wanted to buy a bunch of art galleries or I wanted to elevate artists, for example, which I think are really suffering in New York, and they're being pushed further and further out as much as the city gets more unaffordable. Look, if I had five million for sure, I'm gonna build some kick ass. Artisan like that kind of it's like there's philanthropy but like about shit I care about versus giving it away, which is a lot of fun, you know but I think my what I wouldn't do is Look what I don't and probably because I don't have it is like I don't I don't covet the the yacht and the You know, but I but I do I want to hang out in the in San Tropez and any of the great restaurants But you know, I don't need the full But as a as a guest in that lifestyle versus the lifestyle, if that makes sense. Paul Fattinger (22:26) Yeah, I fully understand what you mean. But I think the question you asked before is, you know, it's right when you say, how much are you willing to give to get to that? Right? Because you're not there now. Right. And clearly, yes, if you want to have an impact and do amazing also philanthropic work, work awesome. Right. But how much are you are you willing to give up your family, your friends, your health, you know, in order to support artists? So that's a very, that's a very Marc (22:36) Mm-hmm. No. No. Paul Fattinger (22:55) I think it's awesome to be able to do this, right? ⁓ Marc (22:56) No, no, that's the right question. That's the right question. ⁓ The answer is no right now, no. And honestly, the only way I'm doing that in this, current trajectory is if I get lucky. My ideas are my projects, exactly. So it's just, and by the way, a of ⁓ people who have extra zeros, luck is part of their story. So. Paul Fattinger (23:07) Same here. Same here. Same here. Same here. Absolutely. you know what I have seen though, because you asked me before about moving the goalpost. Yes, actually I've seen it a lot, especially in this whole consulting environment where people make an extraordinary amount of money and the goalposts have just moved and they just go, you know, and they just do more of the same shit, but more expensive. that's kind of like besides the point. Marc (23:29) Mmm. Mmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Paul Fattinger (23:45) to me. I'm also guilty of that by the way. I'm also guilty of that. I'm not saying like... But I'm trying not to be. And yeah, well, I have another interesting one, but yeah. Marc (23:47) Thank you. I know. I know. Well, lifestyle creep is a thing, right? You know, the more money you make, you know, exactly, your expenses keep up with that. ⁓ But, know, it's, hmm, hearing you speak, like, it's really thoughtful because actually you have to be clear of what you're not willing to give up, which is interesting. And by the way, this is all rooted in the self-belief that we can, if we want to, which is also very funny. Just to call it out. Yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (24:03) Dive style creep is a thing, 100%. It's true. Well, no, no, as we both said before, to a certain extent, I think we can. But to go to that, you know, lifetime where through even generation where is a, you know, requires an immense amount of work and luck. And I think what we see or what I see is that I can have a pretty decent life with, you know, a pretty decent amount of input that also Marc (24:30) Yeah, I agree. It's true. Paul Fattinger (24:53) fulfills me. And if I double that, I think I can also double what I make or maybe triple what I make, if you want, when we are there. But also, I don't have more time. And what is worth more, time or money? And I think that's where we are. And when it gets really interesting, where you read very often that you should use what is one of the good uses of money. Marc (25:07) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (25:22) to buy yourself time. Marc (25:24) Here's an idea, stop giving it away. ⁓ In service of buying, that's the circle, Instead of trying to make enough money to buy yourself time, stop giving whatever it is that you already have away, which is... Paul Fattinger (25:34) Yeah. Exactly, and that's kind of that's exactly the circle. Yeah Marc (25:42) Yeah. Can I just call something out and then I want to hear one of your fancy stats? just think ⁓ this conversation is showing to me, hey, in the end, ⁓ Mark and Paul are betting on luck. ⁓ ⁓ Paul Fattinger (25:57) ⁓ I think I'm kind of betting on myself and I have to admit that also every time I think it's also a topic I tend to run away from, to be honest, because I know in the house and we're not talking about very philosophically about what is enough. then though, I think there's a big question that maybe we should address in a different podcast of how you manage it then. How do you manage money in a relationship or in a... Marc (26:01) No, that too. ⁓ That's right. Paul Fattinger (26:23) in a marriage, how do you handle, know, how much do you save? What do you do? How do you X, Y, Z? So there's, think, lots of how's to it. How do you budget? Topic that I hate and always hide from. Et cetera. So I'm really actually not personally, I think, not doing a great job and running away from this. But as I thought about this, I thought I should do a few things differently. But now the funny story is half a year ago, so a friend of mine, Thomas, and he's never going to listen to this, so I'm going to bitch about him a little Marc (26:34) I hate budging. No. Paul Fattinger (26:53) He gave me this, we had a few nice conversations with one of my dearest friends and he said, you know, I just read this book which is called The Five Types of Wealth. You should read it because lots of the things you talk about are actually in there. So it's been on my bookshelf. And finally enough, beginning of the year, I guess because I had finished the book I had read all year and didn't finish on my vacation and I was like, I need another book. I went to my bookshelf, it was January. Marc (27:03) ⁓ Mmm. Paul Fattinger (27:19) You know all the resolutions and shit and I saw this book as like maybe it's time I finally read this So yesterday night I come home I think you know I need to do something different in my life because I was drinking for three nights So I'm reading this book so I'm going through it and I'm going through the the intro and I go through them the table of contents and it says you know that the five types of web and the last one is Financial wise I'm like, that's interesting. So let's go and read this So I read this for today and actually it summarizes everything we've been saying Marc (27:29) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (27:48) in a very, very nice way. And what I find really interesting is the answer of what is and when is enough enough. And he talks about the lifestyle creep and the moving goalpost. And he's like, one of the most important things is to sit down and think and define for yourself what is enough and write it down. What's the type of house you want to live in? What do you want to do on a random Tuesday afternoon? TAP, TAP, TAP, TAP, TAP, right? Marc (28:09) Hmm. Paul Fattinger (28:18) And then, and then basically there is five levels of worth in achieving that. Right. The first one is basically this. Yeah, exactly. Tuesday afternoon. I mean, guys and girls read the book. It's amazing. And he's like, there's five levels in achieving that. Right. The first one is basically bare survival. The second one is, you know, you have enough money to buy you some little stuff, small luxuries, like going out for dinner. The third one is like, you know, all these things are not top of your mind. have. Marc (28:23) Yeah, the Tuesday afternoon thing is one of the most classic. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (28:48) you have security, it's probably where we are in a sense, right? The fourth one is moderate independence when you have passive income that covers some expenses and the last one is complete independence where you have passive income that exceeds all expenses, right? And you're kind of trying to work yourself towards that and then he describes strategies and we're not going to go into this but I found this so simple because in the end we're setting ourselves goals for so many things in life, right? And in a sense Marc (29:08) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (29:14) We also do for the money thing, but I don't think in a structured way like this. Marc (29:19) hold on. I just want to say, since he's just showing out and like, that's my son, Valentin, little readers who woke up from a nap and interrupt daddy's podcast time. ⁓ I think the exploration, what are the other five versions of wealth? Cause the exploration of financial wealth and that exercise I think is profound. And you know what I suggest we do for our next podcast is we write down our Tuesday and come back next week and share it. Paul Fattinger (29:21) Yeah, yeah. love to do that. I think it's it's time. It's it's social wealth, right? It's health. And so it's health is physical wealth, basically social wealth, connection, mental peace and presence. And then it's it's financial. And the interesting thing is he has financial Marc (29:58) Four out of five, that's great. Paul Fattinger (30:03) And he has financial in the last one, as a last one, because he says the financial worth is there to support all the others. That's the actual purpose of it, right? To buy yourself health, time, connection, et cetera, et cetera. So I really love this. And it actually is a great summary. And I don't want to say it's the only truth, but it really resonated with me. It's a great summary. And I don't know what is enough. Marc (30:11) I agree with that fully. Yeah, of course. Hmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (30:29) Enough for me. That's what I kind of thought and that's what I meant in the beginning I said it made me think the research for this episode because you you grew up with the stream You know, you always want to have a Porsche. I bought my seven old Porsche when I turned 40 great, right? Did it make me happier? No, do I want to sell it also? No, but But mainly because my kids really love it and they love you know, they love going around in it with me and Yeah, we can we can and it's a beautiful piece of art almost right? I mean Marc (30:46) Hahaha! I still want to ride in that thing. mean, that's not, I feel like. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (31:00) So, but did it make me happy? Is it me sad if I said this? No. So, and is it a watch that I need? I really know. So, to really think about the things you really need that matter to you, that align with your values, that really resonated with me. And I got to say, know, sometimes we think about the small things way more than about the big things. And that's a big fantasy of us. You know, we think about what we need to achieve and the weight we need to have and some. Marc (31:23) Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (31:29) stupid shit what goals we need to achieve in 26 but not of the big stuff so that's kind of what stayed with me. Marc (31:36) Would you rather have another Porsche or get a like a pick a pick a Ferrari or go on a two month long trip like bougie trip in Japan? Paul Fattinger (31:41) or Ferrari. No, no, no. The second, mean, to the point where I thought for a long time that, if I didn't find the work and the income I needed to, I always have my Porsche and I can sell it and I can live with it for a year, And I would even find it just a normal year where I have time to grow and to find my passion project or something I want to do for it. So, Marc (32:04) Yeah, that's right. Mm, mm, mm. That's actually quite revealing. It's funny. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (32:21) Although I hope it never gets to that because I think it's going to be a tough moment. I admit to that as well. ⁓ Marc (32:23) No, no, no, I don't wish that. And just to close this, we'll come back to it, do you, is there a number that you have in your mind? Paul Fattinger (32:37) 10. Marc (32:39) That's mine. Literally that's mine. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (32:40) Yeah, yeah, but there's also statistical evidence for that. And in a sense, right, because you can with passive income, you know, afford in a certain lifestyle that is, you know, the upper middle class in our respective countries. think you might need a little bit more than I do. In fact, in New York and where you can buy a house and stuff like this. that's level five. That's the level five we described before, where you have all your needs and all your expenses are actually covered and you don't have to work. Marc (32:53) ⁓ Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Paul Fattinger (33:10) That is, So I think you can do it with much less if your lifestyle is simpler. You say you moved to a cheap country and whatnot, but we're not, our kids are here and stuff. And yeah, if you want to go binge in... Marc (33:16) Yeah, but... And our podcast started in Paris drinking burgundy. like, mean, there's some, Paul Fattinger (33:27) Yeah, it's like, let's not fucking kid ourselves. And we're like, no. Yeah. And in a sense, I did this. I mean, I did this last year when I thought, you know, there are some things like I like to go skiing and skiing is a very expensive hobby. And I just realized that actually my winters are much more expensive than my summers. Like, like by a big X factor, my friend. Marc (33:45) By the way, and you're skiing at a discount because you're skiing in Lech. What's the ski ticket in Lech? 50 euros? Paul Fattinger (33:54) Dude, I bought a season pass for 779 euros. Season. 85, I think it's the day. Nothing is nothing. You can ski for two or three days in the US for that. But at a discount is still a bit of a steep comment. ⁓ But anyways, man, that's a great episode with lots of, I think, lots of two coms and lots of fun too. And I think we really have Marc (33:58) Okay, fine. a date, which is nothing. That's nothing, dude. Whatever. Yeah, exactly. I think they all 300 day. Yeah, fine. you know. I had a lot of fun. Paul Fattinger (34:23) A few things we still need to be talked about on the money topic, We do one episode, guys are be so sexy about budgets. I'm gonna tell you everything about budget. They would kill me. They would charge me like thousands to spend another half hour with me. Exactly, exactly. Listen, but I mean... Marc (34:27) I don't think that's a conversation that ends. We should get our respective accountants on. Yeah, To deal with your stuff, I can imagine. Exactly. Paul Fattinger (34:51) you know true to our to our traditions. Can we do a quick Terminate and Idiot of the Week? Marc (34:58) Absolutely. I think you should go first and then I have a good one. Paul Fattinger (35:04) Okay, I have my my idiot is actually and it is a very champagne problem one, but you know, I was, know, in basically a club on the weekend and there's always these men that are trying to shove you around and being the strong guy and try to pick a fight dude and there was more than one situation where things nearly got out of hand because of just some fucking idiots, really idiots. You can't hold a drink. Don't do it. Marc (35:35) That is my idiot of the week, funny enough. I had a guy, oh yeah, no, no, no, no. I was at a restaurant, I wasn't in a club, but I was in a restaurant and some guy, tough guy, was yelling at me because he didn't feel like I opened up, held the door open enough for the girls he was with. He was like, hey man, get some manners, right? And I was like, I just snapped at him. Paul Fattinger (35:38) No, no, no, you're kidding me. Really. Marc (36:02) I was just like, are you serious? Right? I was just like, I really just push it open for him. And I think he was just trying to be really tough in front of these girls and like, you know, and it was just the app. Yeah, I know. It was just. Paul Fattinger (36:03) Meh. Jesus. How funny is this? It's so similar, man. We are brothers. We are brothers. We really didn't talk about this. Same is true there, but in a much more drunken manner and in a really violent one. So stupid. Marc (36:16) Yeah, it was just like, yeah, we just try to show off it for these girls. Yeah, that's funny when you talk about that. I'm sure you had to tone it down. Can I give another idiot? Just for the fun. Have you seen the African Nations final? Paul Fattinger (36:30) Yeah. Go ahead. Marc (36:38) Imagine a guy, I'm sorry if anyone listening to this is Moroccan. The poor guy with the last kick of the game, I forgot his name, the Moroccan player, last kick has a winter penalty, attempts a panneka, and just literally kicks the ball softly into the goalkeeper's hands. It's the biggest, no, you have to watch it. You will be you will be shocked. It was not even remotely a good one. Paul Fattinger (36:57) Are you kidding me? Why in the world would you do that? I'm gonna show Marc (37:06) It was like the whole nation, it's in Rabat, know, it's like in the capital. Paul Fattinger (37:07) No But it is it is like it is like ballsy you gotta say that I mean that is going for the moonshot and then Marc (37:13) Yeah, yeah, I mean, but it's not even a great one. It's not Zidane, you know, in the final against Italy. know, this is not a, this is a, like a lob, you know, anyway. Yeah, that's true. Paul Fattinger (37:26) Obviously it wasn't great, otherwise it would have worked, right? So... Yeah, no, wait. That is a great idea, man. Great idea. Any terminators? You have a good terminator? Marc (37:33) Yeah, that's a good one. It's a proper. Related, actually, the Senegalese place was popping around my corner. And I just got to say, you know, there's something about ⁓ Senegal one, I guess that was the whole idea, not to make this a sports thing. But the way, you know, you just reminded these little micro communities in New York, you're like, wait, there's a Senegalese place and then like, what's all this crowd here? Then suddenly bananas. And the goal that won it was like top shelf. Paul Fattinger (37:46) Yeah. Bam! Nice. Marc (38:03) world class, yeah, screamer. ⁓ All our listeners, do yourself a favor and check out those highlights. That was Pure Cinema. Paul Fattinger (38:03) Really? Nice. Nice. I'm going to watch this and I have a related Terminator, is a bit of a product placement in a sense. I want to big shout out, there's a ⁓ group of entrepreneurs and people working hard in Vienna in a company that I've been working with a little bit. called Fruits, F-R-O-O-T-S. And their mission is actually to get more people into long-term lifetime saving. and to enable that at a very low cost. And I think it's great. And we're going to talk about maybe next time in one of our next episodes, ⁓ because to reach that level five that we talked about, that's a super important thing and something I have personally started way too late to use the power of compound interest. ⁓ so those guys are doing a cool job, really, really cool job. So check it out if you think of where you put the extra free cash flow that you might have. And even if it's just 25 bucks a month. Marc (38:45) Ooh. Paul Fattinger (39:07) It's something you can save and make work for you. Marc (39:12) I love that. I love that. Financial literacy for 2026. Let's go. We still need it actually. Yeah, we need that. Paul Fattinger (39:16) It is exactly that. Very much so. Very much so. My friend, this was super fun. Thank you. And also thank you, Valentin Bruno, for being such a cool co-host today. I love this. Marc (39:27) Yeah, did you know your Uncle Paul gave you your middle name? Did you know that? Paul Fattinger (39:32) because it's the coolest name, And you are also really sporting it. I like it. You pull it off. You can pull it off. Ciao, Marc. Have fun. Have a great day. Marc (39:33) Hahaha! Bye! ⁓