Great Is Not a Feeling | Ep 61

Paul (00:05) Welcome to guys like us. If you're new to this podcast and how can you be because this is episode 61 and it is that podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you are in your prime, which some people really still talk, you know, call midlife. You know, we all know it's your prime. And you will hear stories here about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, the sort of things that shaped us and continue to shape us. And I am one of your co-hosts, Paul, I live in Vienna. I'm an executive or former executive entrepreneur, a father of three children and a recent discoverer of my gut feeling and feelings in general. And that's already a little hint. But before we go there, hey Mark. Marc (00:58) Hello. I am joining you from an incredibly sunny and beautiful New York. I'm a self-conceived artist, entrepreneur, father of two, and clearly doesn't know his ass from his elbow when it comes to gut feeling, as we're gonna learn on this episode. So I'm excited for you to take us through it. Paul (01:17) I think you're underselling yourself, because we are going to speak about all the times that our gut feeling helped us, failed us, what it actually is, if we think it works all the time or it doesn't, what the universe has to do with it and the kind of vocabulary you need to do the work. Marc (01:37) Paul, how are you? Paul (01:39) I am great and I can start and answer your next question right away by giving you my idiotic thing of the week. The Marc (01:49) please, I want to hear it. Paul (01:50) reason why you only have 40 minutes of time for this podcast is because for the first time in 63 recordings, I am late and I Marc (01:59) Yes, you are. Paul (02:00) am late because I just packed myself into a garage for 20 minutes and managed to lose my parking ticket, which Marc (02:08) Mm. Mm. Paul (02:10) cost me six years and I wasn't even able to pay so my car is still there because I figured you know if I pay six years anyways I might as well leave it there you know for the time being anyways that's Marc (02:19) it's true. Paul (02:19) my idiotic thing of the week to turn it around though it's not bad huh it's so idiotic Marc (02:22) That's pretty good actually. Huh? Mm-hmm. Paul (02:25) that's why I'm sitting here like sweating and I don't don't turn the video on yeah I mean what the fuck Marc (02:28) R r r rushing to come back and talk to me. Exactly. Paul (02:32) Exactly, which I am delighted to do. And I'm also willing to share a good summary of my very productive week so far, which my idiotic thing of the week would have been that I was out every day of the night and it would be a six nights out in a row kind of thing by Saturday and it ends with a wedding. So that was actually totally worth it as well. But I Marc (02:49) Oof Good. Paul (02:56) was very productive because and I know I've had this terminator many times. Me and my girlfriend Claudine, I call her Claudine now. Yeah, I mean, she Marc (03:05) Mm. Paul (03:06) is fucking amazing. I love her. She's my Marc (03:09) yeah. Paul (03:09) best friend and everything. It's it's really insane. You know, unfortunately, Marc (03:12) Do tell her your dirty secrets. Paul (03:15) Claude is so correct that this part is just the romantic part is very, is not really well developed yet. But in any ways, it's also, I think that's healthy. And I know I got to say, all honesty, Marc (03:28) I agree. Paul (03:29) I've I mean, the setup right now is so cool and is really churning out stuff that's really helpful and really accelerating the stuff and the work I do, which is looking at lots of companies running analysis, figuring out whether they're good targets or not. So it's awesome. Over to you. Yeah. Marc (03:44) Nice. Okay. Wow. That's a good terminal. So listen, I I know you wanted the idiot of the week to be me because I've chosen actually a good background to have in the background, but I've got a really good one that's even better than than this, though this will be my standard. okay. Paul (03:57) Impossible, okay, let the audience decide. Marc (04:01) So a dear friend of mine who we actually shared a table with at the Oktoberfest at the CAFA, you know, Mr. Floyan, you know, was Paul (04:10) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (04:12) visiting here in New York. Paul (04:13) Mm-hmm. Marc (04:14) And it just so happened that, you know, I had a lunch, but while we were sitting there, my we had a lunch together, my my important meeting for the afternoon to kind of keep things in control was postponed till the following day, right? So we suddenly had the whole afternoon. We had a lot of fun. We were, no, no, no, no, this is not it's not going Paul (04:32) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (04:33) with so you know, we have it's beers, etc. We're just relaxing, we took a nice time in New York. It's a perfect time of year, as you know, Paul. And then suddenly we say goodbye, goes to the airport, right? And Suddenly I just get messages from him, right? He's like, Yeah, man, like beer beer is like really expensive. You know, he has like four beers in Terminal B, right? And I'm just looking at it and I was like, first of all, four beers is one thing, but like what are you doing paying for beer? Right? You are you're flying business class back. Is there like a lounge? He's like, No, Paul (05:02) Go to the lounge, Yeah. Marc (05:05) no, no, there's no lounge here. You know, I'm in Turtle B. This is a shit airport. I was like, dude, there is a lounge. Like screenshot it to him and it was like literally two two gates south which he just strolled back a little just just buzzed, you know, into the airport. He even flew a blade. Totally would have in you. He even flew Paul (05:25) I have a lot of sympathy for that, but that could have meant me. Marc (05:30) a blade, the helicopter, he was like being a boss, you know, it's just, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Ted decides to pay fate seventy dollars for beers. It's just great. Paul (05:33) No, that could be totally me. my god. I'm almost a bit jealous. Marc (05:43) Hey, I gotta say, Terminator of the Week, I gotta say, Copa, my shirt, isn't it amazing? Paul Cockburn. D the Copa released this great brand of DJ shirts. this is the synthesizer one. And I say like the kind of football blend, I think they're really cool. They're fun, they're fresh. And you know Paul (06:01) You know, mean, when you, yeah. Okay, let's move on, I would say, yeah. Marc (06:04) Ha ha ha I try I try I try to force a compliment, you know. He's like, No, pass. Paul (06:09) No, that's... sorry. sorry. Marc (06:12) It's by the way, this is the segue. Can I just share? I know you're gonna go to th what we're gonna talk about. This was a gut instinct, a gut purchase. So and we can talk all about it. Paul (06:22) okay. Is this an example of the bad choices you made based on your gut? Are we already getting into this? Okay. Marc (06:29) We're already getting it in. I can't wait. Paul (06:31) No, this episode is about gut feeling. We did one, I think it was not too long ago, about overthinking. So it's kind of the opposite about instinct and gut feeling. And so I was wondering, Marc, if you could enlighten our listeners with... You know, all the good decisions you made based on your gut and maybe to make it a bit easier, maybe where you had told you that it wasn't the right thing to do. Marc (07:02) Well I I wanna answer that, but I also wanna talk a little bit about kind of the science of the gut in way of answering it, and we could talk a little a little bit of how my science might be completely fucked. But yeah. Paul (07:14) Most definitely will, yeah? Marc (07:17) But you know, like I the gut is like really kind of like a second brain, right? I mean it it's it's so connected to your you know your nervous system, it lines to your digestive tract, right? And like when you feel strong emotion, you know, you feel it you know, very intentionally, deliberately, you know, in your in your in your body, you know. And very often your body knows a decision or knows the tension before your brain does, right? When you face some type of situation or an opportunity, et cetera, like you you feel that a a lot better. And and and some of the science says that some people read their bodies better, right? And versus their brains and a sort of pace, right? Which is the sort of healthy tension. I think we want to talk about. and so, you know, I think like I I had to really learn to trust my gut in a way, because very Paul (08:10) Mm. Marc (08:10) often my gut has gotten me into trouble because I think I was in pursuit of experience, I was in pursuit of of of things that might have defied a lot of a bit of logic, both in relationships I was making in my twenties, I think in Paul (08:25) Mm-hmm. Marc (08:25) some Job opportunities that I took when I met someone, I was like, God, this person doesn't really feel right, you know, and I didn't trust it or or it's or didn't feel right, but I still went with it, you know. Ignored my gut in a way. and now I think like and maybe this is where we want to talk a little bit about like now we're facing, I think arguably even more consequential decisions than we ever have in in our in our lives, both through the parenting, through career, through kids. And the gut plays a really important role. Pure it's that's kind of a a build on your frame, maybe, but it's just talking a little bit about my own experience. Paul (09:04) I hear you and thank you for the little theory lesson, my friend. I got some more. Marc (09:08) Yeah. Someone does a little research, there you go. Paul (09:12) While you think of the actual answer to my actual question, Marc (09:16) Ha ha. Paul (09:17) I will fill the void with what I observed when I thought of this question. And my Marc (09:22) Mm. Paul (09:23) first observation is that it is much easier for me to think of the things that... turned out to be the right thing after a while, while my gut had already said this for months. I give you a very plastic example. Marc (09:43) Peace. Paul (09:43) Firing people. Where I kind of knew, you know, from, let's say, t equals zero and t plus 12 months, I finally went over that, you know, did that and actually Marc (09:57) Yeah. Paul (09:57) let that person go. And with and all the thinking that went in between is the right thing. Do I have to give a chance? What kind of chance do I give? Is this the right timing? What would other people think? Say teams react, chain reactions, blah, blah, blah. Then I did it. And like the next day, everything was better. Kind of. I mean, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but I have a few examples of those things where, especially actually around people decisions. that I kind of dragged because, know, also because it wasn't an easy thing to do and rationally there were lots of pros and cons. But if I had listened to my initial gut and just fucking Marc (10:36) Mm. Paul (10:37) went with it. And the same was with other business decisions. Also where I thought a certain thing, but I couldn't put the numbers together. I couldn't put the analysis together. And then I did the analysis and the analysis also wasn't a hundred percent clear because you know, sometimes you can't, you know, put everything into a spreadsheet and I went with it anyways and it turned out to be great. you know, much better than the spreadsheet would have said. And I guess I lacked the self-confidence, especially at the beginning of my leadership era, to just Marc (11:11) Yeah. Paul (11:11) say, you know, I have this gut, the numbers don't quite show it, or there's lots of argument against it, but fuck it. There's also arguments for it, know, rationally. Plus there's my gut. So let's go for it. And that there's a Marc (11:27) Interesting. Paul (11:27) of those things that how they turned out, I would say in hindsight, which gave me more confidence now to just sometimes go, okay, fuck it. Marc (11:39) Okay. So, first of all, thanks for those concrete examples. I think those are really helpful because I I first first of all, a hundred percent agree the hiring and firing of people and gut feeling, they're often misaligned. and I can't tell you how many mistakes I've made. Just a few, like hiring a few people where I was like, I don't think so. But I have to do it anyway to fill a role or to fill a need, etc. And it has come back to bite me in the ass. But I want to talk about where my gut has failed me. And I've got some really concrete examples. and I'll tell you what, they're all relationship bent. It's love. Anytime where I I I've been in relationships that like my gut has said, This is a great idea, right? It's been actually a terrible idea. Like really, you know, from a you know, wild love affair with with someone didn't really share my values, you know, or background. Like I just thought it's gonna be complicated, but but why not? You know, be funny. It's like it was like a disaster. And my gut was like, this is gonna be, you know, go for it. It's a great learning experience. And it damn near killed me. And I would say also like I even took some jobs early on in my career where my gut was like, this will be a great type of experience. I didn't think really enough about the consequences, even though my brain was like, where is this gonna lead to? This makes no sense, you know. Paul (13:04) Mm-hmm. Marc (13:04) And I was I was like in a weird advertising job, for example, in in Shanghai, because my gut was like, This is great. This is gonna, you know, gonna keep you there. You're not teaching English, et cetera. And I've never been more miserable, sort of like, you know, running that kind of thing my life. Paul (13:17) Hehehehehe Marc (13:19) You know, and and and my brain was like, How could you possibly be happy here? And your gut was like, Just try it, you know? Yeah, and now Paul (13:27) Yeah. Marc (13:28) it's a little more in line. But the love thing, I think at the relationship thing is really where it gets a little bit mixed up and and my ra it throws off my radar completely. Paul (13:37) Can I challenge that for a sec? Because Marc (13:40) Please. Paul (13:41) what if I told you maybe that wasn't your gut? Marc (13:46) Hm. What was it? My heart? Paul (13:51) Emotions, excitement, hormones. And I think there is, because we're kind of like now pitching, you know, the gut and the brain as two opposites. I think there's a third one, you know, in there. And the third one is the excitement, the dopamine, the, maybe also your Marc (14:09) Yeah. Paul (14:09) ego that don't reflect rationally because they are not rational. But I don't, to me also, they are not really my guts because Marc (14:18) Mm. Paul (14:19) I have done a lot with jobs, you know, that Marc (14:22) Mm. Paul (14:22) I, and I think I made wrong choices in jobs that I wouldn't say that also were rationally not clear. And I did them because I was excited about it, but maybe because also I was excited about the title, the money, let's say more the title, what I can do with it, how it would, you know, look for me if I did that. and, Marc (14:42) Mm. Paul (14:43) and to me that is, is also a bodily feeling in a sense, you know, so it's not in your head. But to me this is not my gut feeling because I think and that's what I've learned my gut feeling comes after the brain has done all its work, the ego has done all its work and the emotion and the dopamine and then when you keep on sitting through all of this what's really left. Marc (15:09) that resonates, but actually I I think that's a little bit of what I was doing in some of these way, you know, I was trying to be as rational and also separate the you know, the motion, the dopamine from the ration to ultimately the the gut piece. But Paul (15:23) Okay, so your gut just sucks. Marc (15:25) it's my gut sucked. I think it sucked. But I think then I've learned to really tune it better. And and I I I don't think the lesson which you're trying we're we're trying to put here is that if you just trust your gut, it's all gonna be okay. But I think it's an incredible barometer of an outcome, right? towards your your happiness that I think you have to learn to understand what it's telling you and give you the awareness of why it's making you feel the way it is. Paul (15:53) I mean, there is a scientist, know, Kahneman, you know, who wrote this extremely exciting but boring to read book, you know, thinking fast and slow. He, you know, he Marc (16:04) yes, God, that one. Paul (16:06) tried to take this apart and because, he talked about the limbic system and the things that you do kind of automatically Marc (16:12) Yes. Paul (16:14) and which is kind of also the gut feeling. And he said that for decisions that you make in a very in an environment that you know very well, like a decision a footballer is taking on the pitch and playing the right pass or a firefighter in a fight or a soldier at war. You know, that is absolutely true that the gut feeling is probably the better one than your pre-frontal cortex spinning up and doing the work. Whereas Marc (16:39) Yep. Yep. Paul (16:41) as a stock picker, you know, as an analyst who buys and sells stocks, that might not be the case. because that is, Marc (16:49) Fantastic example. Paul (16:50) yeah. However, there is also a German scientist, funny name, I don't remember. He argues the other way, says simple gut rules often beat analysis too. So I'm wondering what you think about that. Marc (17:07) Mm. Mm. Yeah, I mean gosh, especially the the last point. I I think as it connects to your general joy and happiness and outcomes, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like I think there's something about the quick you know, be because it's biology, because I think there is a bit of analysis that already happens, whether you're cognizant or not, that's making your emotion And your gut react the way it does, even before your brain does sometimes. Like I think it's it's a valuable tool that we don't often turn to enough or learn how to turn to enough. And I agree with you that it's of its potency. And Paul (17:50) But you say it's not enough, it's just one error in your arsenal and you know, it's not everything. Marc (17:57) Yeah, I also think I don't think it's everything. No. I don't think it can be. Paul (18:01) I strongly disagree with you. I would rather only Marc (18:04) Mm. Paul (18:05) have my gut than only have my brain. Marc (18:08) Really? Paul (18:10) Yes. Marc (18:11) Huh. Now that is a really interesting piece. So i i in that can you explain why? Like like just be do you think it following your gut will lead to better outcomes or because it'll just make you happier? Or both. Paul (18:28) that's also a very deep question. I think, well, if the outcome that you desire is happiness, then the question, then it's the same question. I would say yes, because it leads to more happiness. Because I mean, if you, if you believe in a way that, I wouldn't say your fate, but that the universe is throwing the things that you that you need anyways, and you just accept them and go with your gut and don't overthink everything and don't try to analyze everything and don't try to make a plan for everything and just kind of surrender to what's around you. And that to me is very close to the gut feeling. I'm not saying it's the same thing. I do think Marc (19:08) Right, right. Paul (19:09) that it will be better outcomes. And I'm often surprised when I speak to other people how much they think about things, you know, and think about things and very personal ones where sometimes things just... you know, sit down and try to feel what feels more comfortable for you. And to be Marc (19:28) Mm. Paul (19:29) honest, sometimes I also don't get it. The other day, and that's how the idea came for this topic today, I sat together with two friends and we talked about business and doing something together. And I had a lot of these conversations lately with different people, you know, looking to who can I partner with and so on. And after this conversation, went out and maybe it was the two and a half, three bottles of wine we drank. don't know. But I got out of this conversation. Marc (19:58) It's always that. It always comes down to that. Paul (20:00) Exactly. It always kind of helps, right? I was like, that felt so good and it felt so much better and so much more right than the other Marc (20:08) Right. Paul (20:09) conversations that I've had before. in my, know, I wouldn't even say in the weeks before, but you know, in the last few years, that's got to be right. And Marc (20:20) Mm. Paul (20:20) it made click. didn't, if I didn't have, after the not so good conversations, I didn't think my gut feeling says no. I didn't quite know. It didn't sit right with me, which I could have probably made that, you know, interpretation, but I didn't. But only after I felt how good it could feel to feel good about something, I was like, that's right. And the other things are wrong. Marc (20:43) I that is a great example. I mean, I think when you're going into partnership or business, trusting your gut. I mean, I I I I get that that because there's chemistry involved. And you know, like I I understand why you would trust that over over pure brain power and rationale. I mean, obviously I'm a big believer in that and chemistry and and when human beings are involved, a hundred percent gut. But I think there's some other bigger decisions where, you know, the brain is is and the rationale might might might lead you to a better outcome versus just a gut a gut feel. whether it's investment portfolios, whether it's something, you know, it's something to dive deep into and learn about, an experience to have, et cetera. But I but I wanna I I don't want to debate what's better, you know, right now, gut or brain. I want to unpack a little bit more of the gut and how you can tune it because I'm also a believer in it. Do you do you think like go ahead. Paul (21:44) Can I just interject on that before? mean, Marc (21:47) Ps Paul (21:47) I'm kind of with because what you're saying is kind of following the Kahneman argument, you know, and I also understand if you don't have a fucking clue about the things that you're deciding, what is your gut and your limbic system has no reference point. Yeah. But then Marc (22:03) Yeah, yeah. Paul (22:04) I would also challenge you, why would you pick stocks, pick a person that does this as a job and then trust your gut who you pick? Marc (22:16) Okay. That's a very clever way of un of of of distilling both. Dismantling the well, I mean also Paul (22:20) Dismantling you. Marc (22:23) just I mean again, I I I'm yeah, exactly argue with Paul (22:26) It's the whole point of this podcast, know, arguing with Mike. Yeah, yeah. Marc (22:30) Mark at dismantling his his points of view. I I just think like fair. Like I'm all I'm saying is we shouldn't dismiss the rational. That's all. And I know you're not fully saying that, but but that's that's it. Paul (22:40) Yeah, fair enough. No, listen, fair enough. Yeah. Marc (22:43) But I w but like Don't you feel like now when we're facing decision after decision where your life experience has been has been able has been enabled you to assess more, right? Where trusting your gut plays a much bigger role than it has in the past. For me, it definitely has. Maybe it's because life has become much more Paul (23:04) How? Tell me more about that. Marc (23:06) complex. Sure. Like, hmm, like, is this a great program for my kid to be in, right? To how should I? think about caring for my parents this weekend, you know, to like I only have only have such limited time. Like, is this the right meeting to have? You know, is will this person advance like the business I'm trying to do? And I feel like there's there's the collective wisdom that I've had over forty five years now, you know, and then I'm almost kind of sorting make making more decisions from gut than from rationale. Paul (23:44) So is it easier for you with heavier decisions? Is that what you're saying? Because before you didn't want to trust it all the way and now you're saying the heavier decisions are the more kind of... Marc (23:55) Well, no no no. I I I'm I was saying before, like I think the gut didn't always lead me to great decisions, right? I mean, like I think I I had to tune it, like I mean, I I think it's gotten better for sure. I I've I'm being aware of when it's misled me. But I'm also really queer that when I have so many decisions to make on a daily basis, especially as a parent, as a business leader, Paul (24:16) Mm. Marc (24:16) as you know, friends, etc. The only way I'm gonna get through it effectively is by kind of trusting my gut. Paul (24:23) Because your brain can't cope with it. Marc (24:25) Yeah, it's just that my brain has done the assessment already and and you know, if Paul (24:29) Mmm. Marc (24:29) it's gets it gets tricky, it's just like, Okay, between this or this, this is the right version. This or this, this is the right Paul (24:34) I mean, I have a difficulty following your logic or seeing another logic than actually overwhelmed and you don't have the time to really properly analyze everything. So that's why you're just going with your gut, which is also fine, but you should be aware of it, you know, as your gut has failed Marc (24:46) Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. Paul (24:49) you in the past. However, it reminded me of one thing Marc (24:53) Interesting. Paul (24:53) that actually might add some value. God, I'm in a good mood. I'm fucking with it. It's really annoying. Really annoying. No. Marc (24:58) God, I'm getting skewered today on this podcast. It's really it's like it's like what was that logic, Mark exactly? Paul (25:05) You do know this Jeff Bezos thing about the doors. Marc (25:11) No, what's that? Paul (25:13) He splits decisions into one way doors or two way doors. Or a door that you can go through and then come back or doors that when you go through you can't go back. And actually a good friend of mine, an investor also in Wunbeck, explained this to me once and I really loved it and I forget it actually Marc (25:39) That's cool. Paul (25:39) sometimes, but it is... kind of means, right? If it's a two way door, trust you. It's much easier to trust you got to go through it because you know, fuck it. If it doesn't work, you go back, you know, and you can just take the decision and go for it also. And Marc (25:51) Yeah. Paul (25:52) you don't waste any time on it. If it's a one way door, however, you better get all your senses, you know, and everything in your arsenal ready and think about this. And that's to me, is an awesome concept. Yeah. Marc (26:03) That's a really good fucking metaphor. Wow. That's the first time I Yeah, because I guess for him, you know, there are a lot of one way doors with the acquisition sprees he was doing, you know, et cetera. Like, you know, hires are d hires are two ways, you know. interesting. Paul (26:21) And that's funny you say hires because I was thinking all the time now, what are gut decisions where my gut was wrong? And I think funny enough, in many cases people say, and I read this as an example in the research as well, that they make hiring decisions based on their gut. And they say, I knew right away that this was the right person. If I had made... any hiring decision in my life on gut, I wouldn't have hired a single person. Because I have Marc (26:53) Really? Paul (26:53) never ever and I've hired great people, great people that worked with me, but only because they were the best out of what I thought really mediocre candidates. And very often because others kind of, you know, also interviewed the same person and said, no, they were great. And I was like, yeah, okay, they were not. really shit. let's okay, let's go. We need someone. So let's go for it. And I mean, everybody who listens to this and was hired by me. Now, you know, but I kind of told most of them. And they all, I mean, they all exactly. Marc (27:26) I thought you were shit, but you turned out great. Exactly. Paul (27:30) And, and they all turned out great. So who cares, right? But I really have, I don't know why. But I was never that I thought, yes, absolutely. This is the next superstar. We have to hire this person. Marc (27:44) Well, I maybe s I doubt if the next superstar wants to come work for you. Paul (27:49) Maybe I shouldn't have said this. I mean, I was very enthusiastic sometimes, but maybe for the wrong reasons. Let me put that out there too. I'm just giving you a lifeline here. Marc (27:55) Yeah, yeah. Okay. God Jesus. Here we go. Digging his own holes. It just doesn't stop. doesn't stop. Yeah, exactly. No, I appreciate it. Thank you. You know, but actually this comes back to and and maybe kind of wanning the plane a little bit, which is which is interesting. You know, like there is something about relationships, whether it's you I mentioned it was love as a first example early on, but there's something about relationships I think that throws my gut off a little bit, you know. 'Cause I wanna genuinely like people. I wanna genuinely believe in them. I'm a deep tireless optimist. And, you know, I have a good feeling around people and and and mostly of those in terms of friends, et cetera, but like very much with hires, even with business sometimes. Like I just 'cause my my my tireless optimism says, You never know, et cetera. And I've been proven wrong by many people. It's like, this is never gonna work and suddenly they come back, you know. So it I I feel That's the the messiness of humanity is the one thing that throws off really my gut mouth a lot. and I say that in the context with y you're like just had a great great great meeting with friends and you're like you're all in slightly different. Paul (29:09) Yeah, mean, I know. I mean, yeah, but I know, but there's also for me, you know, I'm a very enthusiastic person and I can fall in love with things very quickly and then fall out of love with them. So to me, I know by now that this is that's what I meant before when I challenged you. is enthusiasm is not gut feeling. That's an emotion. Right. Marc (29:29) That's true. That's true. Paul (29:31) And you kind of have to weather through those emotions and that goes in both directions, also negative emotions to actually then sit with it and release. feel what does your God tell you and where do you feel more comfortable really, you know, and think about different scenarios and just sit there, you know, if you want to meditate or walk through the forest, but be somewhere that is not a brainy environment, know, but an environment that helps you connect to yourself and really just feel what feels better in my body, what feels lighter. think about, I tell you a great example. No, this is super spooky. Marc (30:02) Tell me. Paul (30:03) People are going to stop listening. The last two people are going to stop listening to this. So I told you my idiotic thing of the week a few weeks ago is that we're going to get a dog, right? So obviously, Marc (30:13) Yeah, yeah, that was pretty stupid. Paul (30:15) yes, obviously my brain for ever since this idea existed has said, has said, and also my voice has said, fuck no. There's no fucking way. So Marc (30:25) Yeah, yeah. Paul (30:27) after enough bombardment by all of the rest of my family, I was kind of getting there. And so that one evening we were all with friends, I was there with my ex-wife, the kids and friends and this friend, she's a coach and she's like, you know what, we're going to do a constellation. Okay? So what she did, she had these Lego plates and she put post-its on the bottom and put them, you know, with the post-it to the floor, on the floor. And I don't know, we didn't know what it said, but the first one said, dog, no dog, banana, you know? Whatever. And we would have to just step and walk over them and describe what we feel. And we didn't see each other, you know, doing that. And Marc (31:07) That's fun. Paul (31:08) then we went through different things. know, that dog, no dog. And then what kind of dog and things like this. And my daughter did it, my ex-wife did, and I did. And, you know, every fucking plate felt in a different way. And we came to a conclusion and the conclusion was dog, finally enough. Marc (31:24) Mm. Paul (31:25) And it even changed when I walked through this then with the whole family. I had a different feeling than when I was walking in. So there is something that is, I know, very spooky because that has nothing to do with prior experiences or something that your limbic system recognizes a smell or a twinkle in your eye. There's nothing like that. You just stand on five different points within 20 square meters. So how do you explain that kind of gut feeling? And to me, that is a different connection and is a bit esoteric. Totally sure, yeah. Marc (31:55) Okay. No, no, no. You you know what? I I I'm really embarrassed to to share this right now in this moment. But just hearing you talk about all this stuff, I I'm I yes probably overwhelmed it too. Like you seem very much more connected to your body than me in this moment in time. And I think like and and if there's one message not to distill from this, like as people are trying to think through gut feel, trust your gut, et cetera, like what is your actual gut feeling? Are you really feeling it? Is it or is it emotion? Is it, you know, can you distill like the patterns of senses that you're getting Paul (32:30) Hmm Marc (32:32) in there to really hone in on what's right? Because as I'm listening you talk out loud, I'm thinking, hey, things I thought were like my gut, were that was that actually really that? Was it something else? Am I am and wow, you're really playing coach, man. This is really fucking me up because I thought we were gonna have a conversation, but I realized like actually I'm not even equipped to have this. Because I'm so out of whack. I'm like an out of tune guitar compared to you. Like you're s you know, this is Paul (32:59) But Mike, do you remember that... Yeah, but I'm a very old banjo that has basically three things, strings. Marc (33:05) Ha ha ha. Paul (33:10) I told you, right, when I started working with Johannes, my coach, over two years ago, one of the first things he gave me was a letter-sized page of paper with vocabulary to describe bodily feelings. aching, itching, burning, cramping, Marc (33:29) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (33:32) loose, whatever. Seriously, was 50 verbs and Marc (33:36) Yeah. Paul (33:37) adjectives to describe how your body feels. And it was funny. It's like, how do you feel? said, great. It's like, great is not a feeling. That's how all of our conversations in the first four months and we talked weekly started. It's like, how are doing? And I was always like, Great is not a feeling. And he really taught me. to that. I'm like on level two of 10, I think. Marc (34:01) Mm. Paul (34:02) If I would grade myself. But this is also to do some advertising for a great retreat that we're doing from the 18th to 22nd of November in Mallorca. The whole point of what we're trying to do also in this type of work is to connect with our body because our body is also the door to the present and it is the only thing real. We have because everything in your head if it's in the future in the past is not is not present so I think there is a lot in there that we you know see interesting how far you can go if you start talking about gut feeling and good or bad decisions and and really where it can land I love this Marc (34:41) You know, man, yeah. Th thank you for landing this conversation this way. Like I honestly I you know, I flew in classically and fucking hell. Like Paul (34:50) and your DJ shirt. Marc (34:52) in my DJ shirt, I thought I was gonna vibe about gut feeling, my my my instinct bot, which is another confusion of the of the term. And I feel like I just got schooled. Now I want to come to Mallorca. Exactly. yeah. Well, Paul (35:04) Yeah, man, the door is always open. As you know. Marc (35:09) thank you for this, man. Honestly, like Paul (35:11) Thank you. Marc (35:12) can it's a good lesson. staying close to the emotions, understanding what what they feel, really kind of getting bringing the awareness of of what your body's truly telling you. I brought the science and I clearly confused it. So so thank you for that. Paul (35:27) Thank you, Mark. Talk to you soon.