Why Money Is the #1 Relationship Killer | Ep 31

Paul (00:12) Welcome to Guys Like Us. You found a podcast about the topics that you get across, you come across when you are, and let's face it, in midlife. These are topics about friendship, about leadership, about exciting topics of the world right now. In short, all the topics that move us and not only move us as men, apparently, because we just found out that over 50 % of our listeners, at least in the past 30 days, were women. So that's a new that's that's very cool. So your your topic today is actually money in relationships. So that's a fun one for everybody out there. And your hosts today are Mark calling in from we're gonna solve this puzzle in a second. And myself Paul calling in from Vienna. Mark, how's it going, my friend? Where are you joining us from? Marc (00:42) Amazing. How cool is that? I am in the ninth of one this month in Paris. flew. I flew. It's funny, was supposed to fly tomorrow, but then I changed my flight to come a day earlier because New York is experiencing its first major blizzard in 10 years. So we're getting a good half a half meter of snow. Yeah. Paul (01:10) ⁓ très bien. Wow, wow. Did you check whether your flight tonight, well, it's actually, it wouldn't have left yet, right? It was canceled. Was your flight canceled actually, the one you should have taken? ⁓ really? wow. All right. I mean, you could have been lucky, right? And one of the other three that weren't canceled. But hey, that's a pretty good call, I would say. Pretty good call. It would have sucked if I went to Paris tomorrow and you had still been in New York, to be honest. Marc (01:37) Yeah, of course it was. 3000, they canceled 3000. Yeah. So. Yeah? That was also on the back of my mind, to be honest. So I said, let's de-risk and then ⁓ on multiple fronts. And at the same time, yeah, that's true. That's true. Exactly. So, you know, I owe my wife something special on the way back because she's now has two kids on snow days. But this was an important one to get out. Paul (02:04) I think there's more important things than me coming to Paris for you to hear, but anyways. Dude, we're gonna find something. We're gonna find something. So now that you're in Paris, the pressure is up. What is the drink you're having for our session tonight? Marc (02:31) shit. You know, I am only drinking a Coca Coke zero I should have bought a got a beer. It's embarrassing. But this is my little lift before this podcast. And then ⁓ I'll kick it up a notch. I promise. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Paul (02:40) Listen. All right, all right. Before you take off tonight. All right. No, no, that's okay. That's fine. But hey, I mean, you flew in this morning. What did you do in Paris so far? What was your... Marc (02:55) You know, I landed and you know, the thing I like to do is go for a long walk to get over jet lag. So I found a bistro ⁓ actually all the way ⁓ by the Eiffel Tower. That's supposed to be really good. The reason why I went there is because my eldest son Felix is into that Pixar movie Ratatouille. And I said, listen, you know, I'm going to go to the little rat Remy's house. And he was so excited. Paul (03:22) Nice. Marc (03:22) So then I can FaceTime him with the Eiffel Tower behind. And so he was really into it. So that's what mattered. The things we do. Paul (03:29) Oh, very nice. Very nice. The things with I had a super nice Sunday to be honest, I had an afternoon with, you know, my kids and friends and and then we had a lunch actually before that. But I'm going to talk about this later. But that was my night today's wine where we got served some amazing, I will tell you, an amazing Macon village, you know, white burgundy. Beautiful. would have I mean, it got me right into the Paris mood. Marc (03:46) Ha Paul (03:57) And then a very beautiful Austrian wine afterwards, which I don't think is easy to follow something like this, which was from Burgenland, most Eastern province with the most sun in Austria. But it wasn't that heavy. was a full mint by Tri Baumer. I mean, both of them, let's listen back to this podcast when we don't remember what to drink, don't know what to drink, which never happens actually. But, any case, that was my, so I kind of really, a really nice buzz by two. Marc (04:16) Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Never know. But I'm jealous. I'm jealous. Paul (04:26) Uh, and then we went to see these friends who, who, and we stopped drinking there, which was totally stupid because by four 30, I was almost sleeping there and they got slightly offended by my, um, tiredness or our tiredness. So yeah, here we go. That was my Sunday. So I'm drinking a glass of water now because I actually wanted to stay super clean this weekend because I'm seeing you tomorrow and the day after tomorrow in Paris. And I know, and I have to work and all of this. Marc (04:40) Ha Paul (04:55) but we wanted to use this time to see each other, but it's usually never a dry experience. So, so much for me preparing well for this weekend. All right. Marc (04:58) It has implications, yeah, exactly. No, no, no. Well, that just means well you have prepared it's just not the way you thought Paul (05:11) No, to say I actually prepared probably in the best possible way my my ⁓ Yeah, all my senses are sharpened to the the taste of France All right, which is gonna cost some money obviously and that's what we're gonna talk about today and amazingly a big shout out here to a Newcomer to our listeners who wrote me a message Marc (05:16) Yeah, exactly. Paul (05:40) and said, I really wonder when are you going to speak about money again? Because that was an interesting episode. So we thought, okay, we might as well be doing that. That was the inspiration for today, Mark. Plus I realized that in many episodes we are talking about that we should, you know, at one point make an episode about this. And we probably never do because I don't know what we've been talking about the last 30 episodes with it already. So that's why I fed all of our transcript into an AI. ⁓ Marc (05:45) Huh. Yeah. Paul (06:08) And I asked it, you know, what are all the things that we've promised? And we have a long list, my friend. We can actually do a, could almost do a voting thing on Spotify. What, should we be talking next about all the things we've promised? We'll do that. Marc (06:19) that'd be fun. I think we have a fan base that's big enough now, so let's do it. Paul (06:27) Exactly, yeah, more than one is actually big enough. It yields a result. right. Okay. Listen, to start us off, my friend, I found out some amazing, amazing facts. I'm not sure if you would have known or you'd know. 40, I'll just start right away, right? Because 40 % of divorces in the U.S. are linked to financial stress. 41 % of people said that money had once played a role in a breakup in the past. Marc (06:30) Exactly. Go for it. Go for it. Paul (06:58) 35 % say that money is a primary source of relationship stress. 46 % would likely break up if there were no financial consequences. I find this one is hardcore, actually. So I mean, I think these are all some very interesting stats that kind of make the point of why money plays an important part. Marc (07:13) Wow, that's insane. Paul (07:26) in any relationship out there. So when you hear all of this, is that kind of a surprise to you? Or is that something where like, I don't know, I'm not part of the 41.5 % who ever broke, you know, broke up because of money or what's your kind of first take on these stats? Marc (07:44) I unfortunately am not surprised. think a lot of ⁓ people, let's put it this way, I think a relationship unfortunately is anchored very much around love and money in a way. ⁓ There's love that you have, etc. and then you need money to fuel those experiences and the energy around that and the lifestyle that people want. Paul (08:04) Yeah. Marc (08:14) And in high aspirational cultures, I think it's what gets in the way, right? ⁓ Of that balance. And ⁓ unfortunately, I can tell you I've seen many, breakups as a result of ⁓ financial stress, ⁓ challenges. Someone's not making enough money. Someone else is not pulling their weight. They can do better, et cetera. So ⁓ I'm surprised it's not higher in many ways. Paul (08:43) Actually, in many ways, I also thought so, but it is if you really think about it of all the other shit that can happen in a relationship to have, you know, almost I think is the majority is that the single largest contributor. So all the other ones like, I don't know, kids or different dreams or whatever comes or infidelity ⁓ come second to that or third or fourth. So it is the single biggest contributor to relationship stress when. And what you just said, where you said relationships are basically about, you know, love and money. ⁓ if you think about it, right. I mean, only very recently it started that marriages are actually about something more than money and economic stability and safety, right. Because for the, for the most part, I didn't say this, right. I think there's, it's one of the very famous things that Marc (09:30) Well said, well said, yeah. Paul (09:38) Uh, that any relationship expert, you know, say that, but, know, for even for most of our parents, it wasn't, it was still a lot about economics, but the generation before it was a hundred percent. So it's only really us in the last hundred years. I've started this notion of romanticism and the fact that you may have for love or are in a relationship for that. Marc (09:59) Yeah, totally. Look, I mean, the dynamics of class and love and money, I mean, both in from the courting phase to the actual relation phase of spurned a million novels and the songs are on the cultural side, Actually, I was just thinking Wuthering Heights, this famous English novel is now top of the box office. Oh, you don't know it? really? Oh, okay. Anyway, stuff we had to read in school, but it's top of the box office. Paul (10:19) Mm-hmm. No, I don't actually. No, no. Marc (10:29) right now globally, it's a movie starring Margot Robbie. And, ⁓ you know, it's all about that. It's about, you know, people fall in love. One is a ⁓ kind of a rejected ⁓ person of no class. He's rejected by his by eventually by the woman, you know, he then works really hard to strive up. ⁓ It's slightly different than what we're talking about, because what we're really talking about is Paul (10:32) ⁓ okay. Really? Marc (10:54) being in relationships and the stress of money in those, you when you're in a relationship, but it's, think what we're trying to say that this is a timeless kind of struggle. Paul (11:03) Hmm. That's interesting. But you know, if you do you remember any of your own personal struggles you've had with this or a classical money argument you've had in your relationships? Is there one that a repeating topic or something that is really, that you really remember well? Marc (11:23) You know, I think it's really interesting. I think I selected ⁓ partners who were like-minded in how to prioritize their money. And I was lucky in this way. So they were always really about experiences. They were really about like, let's not, know, forget the Gucci bag. I don't need the Chanel, whatever, right? ⁓ you know, let's let's put our money towards experiencing something together that that felt right. So spiritually aligned about where to put it, you know, it was never and we had we're lucky enough to have enough through that lens. I mean, your types of experiences, you know, you know, the quality of them will increase over time, you know, I was 20, it was like, let's go back, let's go backpacking, you know, in this place, you know, to know we're eating at a, you know, Paul (12:01) Mmm. Yeah, of course, yeah. Marc (12:19) Michelin star, whatever, right? In New York, a hot new restaurant that just opened up. But it was never like we're, we want to buy material things or put it towards material things that I think I've, what I've experienced, ⁓ that's been a big driver for many of the pain. Paul (12:39) But I mean, the interesting thing is, and that was also a question I asked myself in preparing for this, whether opposites attract also in that case. And in fact, they do. In fact, they do. In fact, statistically, a spender, and that's very broad, but a spender would be attracted to a saver. Marc (12:49) Hmm. Paul (12:59) Right. Because this, because the saver would find the spending, you know, know, spontaneous and exciting and the saver would be, you know, that's good if someone saves money. So, and so on. And so I find that interesting. So, but what you're saying is you had, you know, many other opposites that attracted you. So you didn't need, you were aligned on the money one or, or, or do you think, or are there differences that you think of? Marc (13:00) Totally. Hahaha. Yeah, no. I mean, I, I definitely look, mean, I've definitely had dated some, some girls who were so clearly philosophically not aligned about money, you know, but I would cut it off, like fairly earlier, like what they were dreaming about, right, was, you know, a, a, a was status, right? And they kept, and that's all they were talking about was the status leap forward. Paul (13:48) Mmm. Marc (13:49) And I was like, okay, Paul (13:49) Mmm. Marc (13:50) I know what that requires, right? And, and like, it's like, it's not just that it's like, I don't want to fuel that, you know, like, that's not like, like, that kind of ambition is, is not like, I kind of know what that story is, you know, to go for. And so like, I think I was lucky enough to, to, to avoid the let's put it was put it this way, the most common trappings, you know, like one person wants Paul (13:52) Yeah, exactly. I'm not going to be able to afford that. Thank you very much. Yeah. Marc (14:17) Two separate lifestyles, right? Like I was always able to say like this is the kind of thing where we wanted to go for ⁓ What about you? Paul (14:23) ⁓ I think, I also, I never felt that, I mean, obviously I also dated women where they also became clear very quickly that there were different ideas of how, also how things are, how things are divided, you know, and it was almost like a no matter who makes what, it's quite clear that as a man you need to provide where those are things where I very quickly go. go numb, to be honest. ⁓ Because even if I had been in a position to do so, it would have felt wrong. And quite on the opposite, I always felt ⁓ more attracted, or I think I found it always more appealing to meet a potential partner that wanted to be financially independent, even if it might have been more difficult or even if there was less or slightly less. Marc (14:54) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (15:22) but at least had the ambition that this was something that you didn't want to rely on and the ambition to contribute and to somehow do this in a fair way. So kind of had the same values. And I think this is where, you know, where also the research points us that opposites can attract, but in the end what money does, and that's why it's so often a point of contention, it just brings out many things that don't go well in a relationship overall. Because in here, it's about Marc (15:28) Hmm. Paul (15:52) probably don't communicate right, you don't really understand what's behind it, right? What's behind a certain wish. And so it becomes that point of contention because you actually have other more deeper problems in your relationship and how you handle things to put it very bluntly. Marc (15:56) Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. like, well, here's a fun detail, like, I guess, related to this. So Vera and I, Vera, my wife and I, we don't share a bank account. Like, we've, we've decided, like, like, I think there's something about liberty, like financial liberty, right? And like, we, we split everything, cost down the middle. ⁓ Paul (16:18) Mm. That's an interesting one. Marc (16:39) for let's say our child's ⁓ expenses, for our nanny, for the school, for even the rent, et cetera. She's like, 50-50, that's just what it is. And ⁓ the rest is not like, for a while I've made, and think it's fair to say, fine to say, mean, more, was compensated much more than she was, but like that was really important for her. Like she wanted to do something like that, or we did a ratio. at one point in time as she was kind of scaling up that like felt fair, right? To her. And, and now it's 5050, which is, know, credit to her. And then, you know, obviously, as as the, the shepherd or like, with the extra cash, and we're talking about where I'm investing, and you know, we have full insight into kind of what our portfolio is. But, like, there's something about freeing each other up or creating the illusion of liberty, you know, a freedom. Paul (17:35) Mmm. Mmm. Marc (17:36) that I find really healthy. Paul (17:37) Okay, but couldn't you also do that if you had one joint account and everyone had their separate accounts? Marc (17:44) We totally could do it that way. There's something about the, ⁓ it's an illusion. That's all it is. It's just an illusion of more freedom. Paul (17:55) You know, it's interesting because I mean, I obviously looked this up as well. can tell you here. So what is crazy that 23%, no, actually you got, you are a part of the 23 % that have completely separate accounts, which are usually now listen, second marriages or Gen said. So here you go. Yeah. Marc (18:01) What did I say? What did get myself into? Paul (18:18) I was always a part of the 34 % of hybrid, which means you have a joint account and you have separate accounts, which is usually 34 % of the total population in relationships that they made this survey on. And about half of Gen Xs and millennials are doing that. So I'm straight in that. But what's interesting, 42 % of people in a relationship have only joint accounts. Like one joint account and it's mainly boomers. 85 % of boomers do it like that. Which, frankly enough, my parents don't. And I don't know if yours do. don't know. You know, my parents have a joint one and they have their separate. Marc (18:54) Okay, but see that to me, ⁓ really? My parents, no, I think my parents only have a joint one. ⁓ But actually, yeah, but actually I think that's part of a lot of financial stress and argument. I can imagine ⁓ how much, let's put it this way. If it's a joint account, Paul (19:05) Now here we go, powder to 85. Marc (19:20) and your wife decides to buy that coat that she's been looking at and she just fucking buys it, you know, and it's, you know, 1200 bucks or 1500 bucks or something like a lot, right? She just doesn't ask, just buys it. If you see it on the bill, like I could imagine you're going to have some questions, right? If you keep it separate and it's their own fucking money and you're still paying everything off, it's her choice to make that choice, right? Paul (19:33) Exactly. Exactly. And that's exactly interesting one. I mean, have you ever had an argument about stupid shit that you buy? Is there something that really pisses Vera off that you buy? Marc (19:50) No, I mean, look, I'm weirdly more pragmatic about what I buy than, than, than, but there's no, there's no, ⁓ there's no, there's no Porsche. Paul (20:01) So if you go to Astor Wines and it's like, I'm sorry, there was a sale, there's a truck arriving in a few minutes with a... Marc (20:07) Yeah, but that's like a few hundred bucks. It's not like, there's no, like I bought a Corvette, it's downstairs, or like the classic dumbass stuff. Yeah, like we're fairly reasonable with our money though. we overspend or we're a little loose, I guess, let's put it this way on the restaurants and the fun stuff. But hey. Paul (20:15) Okay, fair ⁓ enough. ⁓ I don't think I've had any. I don't know. If I listen to some friends, like, why did he have to buy another pair of skis or why did he have to pair another 7,000 euro road bike? I kind of hear these things, but then they're more in a joking way because probably the rest is arranged in a sense. I guess also the big things that really piss people off, maybe they're Marc (20:55) Right, right. Paul (21:01) They're not going to talk about it in public. don't know. Maybe we never get to hear them. Because there is a lot of shame around this. There is a lot of not talking about this. Marc (21:04) Cool. Well, look, I mean. I agree. I think actually like, honestly, it's when it comes to kids and I'm just getting into it. I mean, let me be clear. Like there's, if there is, if we make a choice to send our kids to private school for a long period of time, you know, in New York City, that's gonna have like, something needs to give, right? Either like, in terms, yeah, that's not, no, but then, but then you, right. That's just it. Well, well. Paul (21:29) Yeah, but then you don't have any money to buy a cravet or even anything in ester wines anymore anyways. I mean, that problem is solved. Marc (21:37) then someone wants to treat themselves. The question is, who is it gonna be? You know, the adults, right? And that's where I think a lot of the stress comes from because if you look into like what eats into your cash, right? In a city like New York, between the nannies, the transportation, your casual nights out, your babysitters, et cetera, it's like your rent. I mean, it's embarrassing the number that you would need to make. ⁓ think in most countries, just total comp, right? Paul (21:41) Exactly, exactly. Marc (22:06) between families. then and then Paul (22:07) No, I understand. But you know, the funny thing is, Have you, sorry, are you aware of the term financial infidelity because it's linked to what we just discussed? Marc (22:14) No, go ahead. No, it's kind of fun. me about it. It sounds sleazy. Paul (22:22) It's not it is around around around two out of five people in relationships admit to that financial infidelity and it's hiding either accounts or debt or spending or income. Which is a major source of this, I guess those two in five. Those 40 percent are basically the same 40 percent who get the divorce. think that's. Marc (22:34) Really? Paul (22:49) That's linked as a one on one. ⁓ Marc (22:50) Okay, I mean, have I hid a dumb ass purchase from my wife? ⁓ 100%. Like, I'm sure you've done that in your relationship. You're like, yeah, it's like, you know, I bought this, whatever, right? It was never like an egregious amount. Like, you know, it's not that a. Paul (23:01) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (23:11) I bought a timeshare in Portugal. was, oops, no, it was some stupid bottles of wine I bought or something like, nothing dumb, dumb stuff. But the infidelity part I think is really interesting because I mean, you know how many people carry debt and we're talking, we should say from a place of privilege, right? Like I don't carry any debt, I don't think you do. ⁓ you do? How much debt? Paul (23:14) Exactly, Oops. ⁓ I do carry that. Yes. No, I do have a mortgage on a flat. Yeah. Marc (23:41) you have a mortgage. Of course, of course, of course. Yeah, so you carry debt in that sense, but not like credit card debt. ⁓ Paul (23:49) Yeah, or debt to France. That's actually one of the biggest red flags that there is in a relationship according to surveys that if someone owes money to France, is supposed to be a big red flag for 64 % of the recipients of that survey, which, you know. Marc (24:05) Do you, so have you ever lent a friend money? Paul (24:08) Yes. Marc (24:08) How'd it feel? Paul (24:09) weird and in a sense. ⁓ But yeah, I mean, it's not that I didn't ask any questions. mean, and I obviously knew another person and at one point, you know, you just do it and then never think about it again. I think it's a bit like an investment in a startup. You just say good. I didn't get it back yet, but it's also not time yet. Marc (24:28) Did you get it back? Got it. Got it. Paul (24:37) Yeah, so some time yet and it's totally and it's totally fine. There is no contention around this is easy, but it also wasn't a whole lot. Yeah. Yeah, but it has happened. But it is a difficult one. But I also think that in friendships, you don't ask if you don't really need and and shit can happen in lives, you know, so I don't find I find it interesting that so many people take this up as a red flag. Marc (24:45) Yeah. Of Paul (25:04) Because I find it slightly judging to be very honest with you because I don't know. If you are a good judge of friends, I would say your real friends would never ask you if there wasn't something happening that they really needed help. Marc (25:17) I I think for the most part I agree. Paul (25:18) So here you go. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if if I, I don't know if I would call a friend, a friend, if I wasn't ready, it wouldn't be ready to, lend them money. If they asked. Cause to me, that's a sign of, because the sign of, you know, someone has their shit together and shit happens and unfortunate things. And you can also do something stupid. That's also fine. You know, you know, as long as you kind of are reflected on that, I don't know, I would be fine. Marc (25:43) But you know what though? Okay, well, here's on a much more minor scale and I want to get us off piece but you know, like I think Venmo and PayPal changed a lot of those dynamics of friends stuff, you know, like it was mean by that is like, like the $300 your friends owes you your $400 or like, from this ski vacation from this year, you know, like, I remember back in the day, like I would keep a ledger and then it'd like kind of annoyed if I wasn't getting paid and now you can just ping them and you know, and whatever's annoying you it's it's sent it to me. Paul (25:51) Yeah. Yeah. In what sense? Yeah, okay, yeah. Send it to me. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (26:17) Yeah, exactly. It makes a difference. Paul (26:18) Yeah. Yeah. Marc (26:22) Anyway, so okay, back to like, money relationships. You've never really had a fight ever about money. Paul (26:29) I never really had, I mean, listen, I had a, I was in a restaurant once where, where, where my partner was way, you a way more diligent saver and went on vacation and she would spend, you know, 20 bucks a day and I would spend a hundred. Yeah. But it was my money and I did it. It made me feel bad all the time and kind of pissed me off, but it really never, you know, went, went to as far as a fight. I think, um, and, and Marc (26:46) Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha. Paul (26:59) And honestly, no, I never had fights, but I would be lying if I said that it never had an influence on me, because I think what's really interesting in what you said, right, is if you can and do contribute equally or I mean, what kind of best practices say if you don't, it's also what you do, right? If one makes a hundred K and the other one makes 200 K and one person contributes a third, the other one contributes two thirds. Marc (27:24) Yep. Paul (27:24) according Marc (27:25) Yep. Paul (27:25) basically to what you make. And I think that makes a lot of sense to the common expenses. And ⁓ I think it was also I think is interesting and obviously as men and I don't know if you feel the same, 70 % of men feel like they need to be the providers. Do you feel like that? Would you be honestly completely fine if you didn't have to be? Marc (27:48) ⁓ You know what, my answers to this is changing. I am. Paul (27:53) From yes to no, from no to yes. Marc (27:56) from no to yes. I think, I'll explain, like, you know, I think for a lot of reasons, you know, age, career, et cetera, like, you know, I've been always making more money than my wife, right? Now, technically, as I'm a founder of a company with lots of interest, but no revenue, shot us changes. Paul (28:20) It has changed. Marc (28:22) you know, and, you know, look, outside of having the support and all that, you know, I was thinking like, ha, like, you know, it would be really nice if I could just experiment a little bit more, you know, just play a little bit more and you know, have the security of my wife's job, right, just to, you know, give me a little bit more runway and also thinking, and then I was thinking about, you know, doesn't really matter. Like it would be amazing if she made loads of bucket loads of money in big tech, whatever, you know, whatever job is and I can just still create something meaningful. What's wrong with that? And ⁓ Paul (29:00) I think on the face of what you're just saying, sounds great, but if all of that came with the same kind of power dynamic that you probably observed in your parents' generation and probably even in the generation right now, I do sometimes where the husband makes much more and then also kind of is the one that gets to say what's being done. And there is a power struggle that comes with it, which is, to be honest, sometimes not so much as a struggle, but a Marc (29:23) Yeah. Paul (29:29) a huge cementing of the already traditional gender roles. And so if that came to the surface, then kind of a turnaround, would you still feel comfortable? Marc (29:41) I don't know. mean, I just, I'm really being honest. Like, I mean, part of me feels like I would like... It sounds great. Yeah, yeah. Paul (29:45) I it sounds amazing. I agree with you because it sounds like, listen, she's making a big bucks. I'm just playing around looking after the kids, you know, great. Awesome. Marc (29:54) But listen, look, I I know I've met some of these guys, right? ⁓ Who, you I work obviously with very high powered executives and you know, ⁓ many of which are female and I've met their husbands, right? And they're for the most part fucking off, right? And they're totally lost. It's really funny. ⁓ You know, and not all of them, but like, but some of them like really are. And I find it, ⁓ Paul (30:14) Yeah. Marc (30:22) it, I guess, what it requires to be really comfortable is a rewiring of your of traditional masculinity that you grew up thinking about, right? So Paul (30:34) Yeah. And I think in both ways, I think from him, from all of us, you know, you know, and I'm happy to share that I was in a relationship where it didn't all depend on what I made. ⁓ and, there was enough money also from, from my wife's side that, that will, you know, to live a good life. And, and that, I think it never really brought up problems, but I think in many. ⁓ Marc (30:47) Yeah. Paul (30:58) In the years after, understood also how I challenged myself and how I challenged my own perception of what would be my role. And at least I always felt that me and I worked hard in this time, that me working hard, because that was not needed, know, financially. It was great and it was there, but it wasn't needed financially. And but I grew up, you know, in a family where my dad was the sole moneymaker. Marc (31:17) No. Paul (31:27) And so him working hard was me also meant that we could, you know, do nice things, that we could live in a nice place, blah, blah, blah, all of the things. Right. And to me, that wasn't true to the same extent. So I sometimes had the feeling, you know, I'm just doing this for fun. And I guess it made me feel bad because to a certain extent it's true. It was for my own ego that I worked hard and that I had the career and so on. And I worked really hard during these years. Marc (31:53) And you worked really hard. You weren't just taking a job. You were working really hard. Like proving something to yourself. Yeah. ⁓ Paul (32:01) No, no, I was absolutely working my ass off to an extent that I wouldn't only attribute it to work, but I was also lost to a certain extent ⁓ and looking for something that I also didn't find at work. But my point is that I think there is something. And to me, it wasn't that easy to handle this situation. I think in hindsight and like about many things. Marc (32:10) Yeah. Paul (32:25) If you talked about them openly, if you actually understood what was going on, or if I had understood what was going on with myself, that probably would have been different. And I always felt like what I did wasn't appreciated, which probably wasn't even true. But maybe it was just me that felt that. Marc (32:40) Yeah, mean, like, it's it's it's almost cute, right relative to I could I can hear I can feel it as you were thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (32:48) Yeah, exactly. that's totally fine. I don't want to pin my whole, you know, what led to a divorce and stuff on this, but I mean, I was in that situation where if you wanted, the roles were a bit inversed. And I think in many relationships that can happen, think of, you know, one partner inheriting a large sum, think of one partner making a great exit, you know, and all of a sudden, and there is a certain, the dynamic shifts, and I don't even want to say power dynamic, but the dynamic shifts. Marc (33:06) Totally, totally. Paul (33:16) And what I find very interesting because I was lucky in the past years to also do some coaching on this money topic, especially, and talked to coaches about this topic who work with this topic solely. So that's mainly, think what I wanted to say. Sorry. And what's super interesting is to explore what the messages are that your parents actually gave you and, and what you actually grew up with and what the almost baggage is that you bring. Marc (33:31) Mm. Mm. Paul (33:46) inside, you know, into a relationship. And if you uncover that, as with many of the other things and aspects of therapy, you know, what are the influences you bring from the past into your presence and in your relationship, you kind of understand better how you deal with that as Marc (33:46) Totally. Totally. Yeah, you know, go for it and Paul (34:05) And I give you a very example is very sorry, just, and then I'm going to finish. I think of a classic example, a couple, one, you know, one partner really wants to buy a flat and have security and do all of that. And the other one says, is a stupid decision is economically not viable and feasible. And it makes much more sense to buy a flat and rent it and so on. You know, there is, it is not about, does it make sense or not? It's like, you know, a need of security and maybe another need there and there. Marc (34:31) Mmm. Paul (34:33) But in the end, you're talking about buying a flat or not, but it's actually not about that. Right. It is about, you know, does it objectively make sense? Is it better to buy or rent? It's probably better to rent with taxes and all. Does it make you feel better? And does it, you know, kind of make you calm down if you buy? Yes. And can one person understand that and the other one can't? Yes. Because we all grow up in a different environment. So, so I find that interesting. So that's what we said in the beginning, that money kind of Marc (34:38) Right, right, of course. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, of course, of course, yeah. Huh. I think Paul (35:03) and covers lots of things. Marc (35:05) Totally, and this thing about what your parents bring in is so obviously important, and actually I think that's your first relationship to money, let's be clear, right? Like that's the first, and how they talk, how they look at each other, how they manage it. And I grew up with a very unique mom, I think, for her, or maybe not that unique, but like very much a ⁓ feminist, a bleeding edge, like I'm gonna make my money and... ⁓ Paul (35:14) Absolutely. Marc (35:36) and all about equality in financial liberation. And she talked about that very openly with her two boys. yeah, 100%. And even though my dad made, the choice was that my dad's career would be the one to really to bet on. Like she was in real estate, my dad was in banking at that time. And she also wanted to raise two boys and be there for them. So like as a mom. ⁓ Paul (35:42) Really? Marc (36:04) but she was really clear about the bets that she was making. She was, you know, would love to talk my dad that she was making more money than him, you know, when they were dating, you know, like she was like, I was picking up those checks and I was really, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In real estate. Yeah. She's like, you had the better long tail career, you know, but I was, I gave up a lot, you know, and, um, went foot, went toe to toe with him and many arguments that I was witnessing as a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (36:14) Really. Yeah. Yeah. okay. That's fun. Marc (36:33) So maybe that always influenced by like, know, kind of, you know, watching your parents tells you what you want in a partner and what you don't, you know, and I always admired that about my mom, that fierceness to her. Paul (36:44) Yeah, I mean, to me, I remember lots of things around this topic. I remember super well how, and then maybe there's another follow on, know, about kids and money. you know, because now I'm thinking also, you that my kids grow older and they need their pocket money. I remember super well my own first pocket money. I remember my parents telling me what to do with it and what not to do with it. What's a waste. Marc (36:50) Hahaha! Mm-hmm. Paul (37:08) and not to waste his hard earned money and blah, blah. So there's so many things that you kind of get into your head with that. And it's interesting that we never questioned those. mean, you kind of, if you start going through your therapy and shit, you know, in your midlife that you kind of uncover all of this crap, but you never uncover all the, all the belief sentences, ⁓ Gaubensätze in German that you made our money, but they're actually huge and has a huge impact on your life. So I'm fascinated that this is a... Marc (37:29) No. Paul (37:36) Such a taboo topic in the sense. And, and I mean, you said it really nicely before also in a relationship to sit down and talk about this, right? I mean, you all sit down in, I mean, think of first dates when, know, when you are, you know, around your thirties and then very soon you talk about, I guess, kids, right? Do want to have kids or not? But, know, how long does it take to actually sit down? like, how much do you actually make? How much do I make? What do we do with it? What's our goal? What is enough for us? Remember what we talked about money? How much is enough? How do we want to go there? What is important to us? Is it safety? it the blah blah blah experiences? As you said, is it shiny shit? Right? I mean, you get your Louis Vuitton, I get my Rolex. Whatever, right? But when do you actually do that? I find this interesting. You almost talk about that less than about sex. Marc (38:21) Mmm. True. No, no, no. mean, that's... Paul (38:28) As an interesting stat, the way, among 20 year olds, money is actually for 50 over 50 percent, the biggest point of contention in a relationship. And it's actually really talked about less than sex. Which could be maybe because, you know, linking it this to the crisis of man's story, you know, as as men want to be the provider and more and more often than not, especially in their 20s, they make less than women. Maybe that becomes a taboo. I don't know. Too old. Marc (38:41) Really? Well, interesting. Yeah. Totally, and that plus social, yeah, the big aspirational flexes happening there, you know? Paul (38:59) Yeah. So, so, you know, when I thought through all of this and talking through all of this, what kind of comes, you know, as a conclusion is, is almost a bit of a, you know, non-event. It's just to sit down and talk about this and let everything go and realize that it's a big topic and not marginalized. You know, that's kind of what my learning was. What's yours? Marc (39:20) Yeah. I think getting clear about what the trade-offs are. So I agree with you totally, but like, I had a friend who said to me once, I always liked this, like my high school friend group, he looked at all of us and he said, know, any one of us could be millionaires if that's what we wanted to be. We're all smart enough to do that. There's no question, right? But the... the journey to do that, right, is really hard. So you have to be up for that, you know, to make that happen, you know. And I see that very much as a compounds to this conversation because, and maybe this is very, sets an elitist tone, and I don't mean it that way, but like, I think like, I firmly believe our audience is sophisticated enough, or not sophisticated, just well off enough to get it, what I'm trying to say, which is basically like, I think I firmly believe that you have to identify the lifestyle you want and be clear about what's required to make that happen. And if you're not clear about the lifestyle you want, then it's gonna get really tricky for you. And you might start at different places, but be clear about that first. And then I think you can design the right kind of experience. Paul (40:29) Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Marc (40:48) on the back end for you and where the money flows. Paul (40:51) Yes. And I think it ties perfectly back into that, you know, five types of where's book we talked about where it says, you know, define your what is enough. Um, and, and, and also I really, to me define what a contribution is to life, you know, what time is worth, what time with kids is worth, um, not in terms of money, but in total and, and, and how long if you really plan on staying together for a longer time, which I think you do, uh, you know, how things can change over time. Marc (40:57) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yes. Totally. Listen. Paul (41:20) how things are when kids are small, how things change when they're ⁓ bigger. Like for me right now, I'm kind of like, I've had a good part in my career. I'm happy with that. I'm happy to spend less, focus less on that. And maybe it changes, right? The point is you can't have it all in one, but sit down and talk about this. And that would be awesome if you could do this at the beginning or before you kind of get into a rut. Marc (41:25) Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Or it's a proper reset conversation, know? Like here... Paul (41:51) Yeah, no, no, I mean, I think absolutely can also be that. 100 percent. 100 percent. Interesting, my friend, interesting. Marc (41:56) Yeah. I didn't know where this was going to go, but actually I found this very rich and enlightening. Paul (42:05) Hey, listen, I mean, we should also talk about our finances because I mean, according to one of our Instagram commenters, we are in a relationship. Are these guys a couple? Because guys, this is now a quick ⁓ segue into the last segment. Marc (42:19) ⁓ I thought you were going to say we should talk about our finances because they're about to take a hit in the next two days. Paul (42:31) That's also true. It's also true. We can actually pay it from guys like us, which doesn't make any income. But we can just actually park our debt in that. I don't know who's going to finance it, but let's try. No, guess we had, and we should have said this in the beginning because now no one is listening anymore. We had our first viral video of Mark talking about the identity crisis that is flooding the Silicon Valley. And we had lots of views and lots of comments, most of which were automatically hidden by Instagram because they were really not nice. And mostly when relation to Mark's, exactly to Mark's inability to express himself concisely. But hey, it was our first viral hit and we take it. Fuck it. Could almost be my terminator, but it's not. Marc (42:58) Mmm. Ha ha ha ha! Hitting a nerve. Yeah. Yeah, we'll take it. Exactly. was malfunctioning. I was malfunctioning. Paul (43:26) No, it was great. Actually, it was was fantastic work. Hey, it was totally unintentional. Man. He did in Terminator of the week what you have. Marc (43:35) Okay, Terminator of the Week, there can only be one answer. ⁓ for me, which is the USA hockey team, I mean, I don't know if you my god, we won. We beat Canada in the gold medal game today. Just about three hours ago. Three hours ago. ⁓ yeah. First gold medal in 46 years. When when have you seen that movie miracle when we beat the Russians? It was like a big deal. Yeah. So it's the first time since that. Yeah, similar idea. Paul (43:44) What happened? No. Really? that's Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, similar. Marc (44:04) This guy, I'm to show you this guy. Unbelievable. Jack Hughes takes a high stick to the face, middle of that game, knocks his front two front teeth out and then scores the winning goal in overtime. Paul (44:16) ⁓ What a fucking story. Wow. Marc (44:19) Look at that. Look at his teeth. Look how they're missing. Paul (44:23) Can fit the metal in between. Marc (44:25) Yeah, yeah, exactly. Fucking Terminator. So cool. Yeah. Paul (44:26) Okay, that's an amazing Terminator. That's an amazing Terminator. Okay, that's good. That's great. That's great. I'll take it. I mean, now I'm almost... It's actually not so hard to follow up because I'm going to follow up with Toby, my friend Toby, who I met actually, he's one of my... the first friends I met through one of my kids. We talked about this before, which I never do, but this is a soccer, football ⁓ team friend. him and his wife and his partner and... Marc (44:47) Mm. Paul (44:56) partner's wife, they run a bunch of restaurants in Vienna and we are at one of theirs today for lunch. They had a pizza pop-up which is super nice and it's just so amazing when you see people who do what they do amazingly well and with passion and love and the output is just fantastic and ⁓ I could have just said there are eight kilos of pizza and drank liters of wine and I had to leave which was fine, luckily because otherwise I would have been fucked tomorrow but I mean Marc (45:14) No. Well, you were already you're already a shitty shitty house guest for your friends anyway. Paul (45:26) Shout out to you, Toby, my friend. Awesome. Yeah, would have been, yeah, no, exactly. Talking about that. ⁓ No, I actually, I actually do. I actually am indebted. Yeah. So this is official and I told him, so that's my, that's my, that's my terminator. Idiot. Marc (45:40) Yeah, yeah. I have to go political for the idea of the week. I know. I know we talked about avoid talking about Trump on this podcast, but but to get rejected by the Supreme Court on his stupid tariffs and the 15 % it's like it's it's you're you're reaching. Yeah. Paul (45:56) Yeah, but you know, he's going to find a way out of this too. But I will, I will ask our notebook LM how many times you had actually named Trump as the edit of the week. I want to know. Marc (46:06) It's it. Listen, it should be shocking. Like it should be the automatic default. But this was a this was a this is a big one. Yeah. Otherwise, Mother Nature for making me screw up my travel schedule that I'm happy to be here. It's but that way. What about you? Paul (46:11) Yeah, yeah ⁓ Okay. Um, yeah, I mean, actually, actually this time I have to officially call out myself as the edit of the week. Uh, because I, but on the other end, I almost, I mean, I saved it. Um, could have been worse. I wanted to check in to my flight tomorrow to come to see you in Paris. And, uh, and the app said, Marc (46:31) Yes. ⁓ Paul (46:47) 27 days to check in and I was like, fuck, how is that possible? The flight's tomorrow. And only to realize that I booked the flight for the 23rd of March. ⁓ And obviously it was not cancelable, refundable or anything. So here we go. That is my edit of the week. That's my edit of the week. Yeah, it's not a bad one. Marc (46:56) Phew. There you go. There you go. Well, listen, I'm glad that your idiocy won't prevent ⁓ me from sharing a glass of wine with you tomorrow. Yeah. ⁓ Paul (47:09) No, because I made another expense. So Mike, and you will be happy to know that you named Donald Trump as the edit of the week three times in episode three, 11 and 17. Marc (47:21) So look, that's 10%. There you go. It's not terrible. No, no, no. Paul (47:23) It's not too bad. actually not too bad. But it's just how good our documentation is. It's insane. I you with that. leave you with that. Dude. Marc (47:29) Yeah, yeah, well, you're blowing my mind. Thank you, my friend, this was great. Paul (47:34) Thank you, see you tomorrow.