Why "Quality Time" is a Lie & The Dad Deficit | Ep 22

Paul Fattinger (00:10) Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about the things that you start thinking about when you are and we got to admit that in that phase of your life that is called midlife and you will hear stories from myself and my good friend Mark calling in from New York again about family and leadership and relationships and friendships and fatherhood like tonight. ⁓ Yeah, that's the topic for tonight and we're very happy. Marc Winter (00:33) Okay. Paul Fattinger (00:38) for you to be listening to us and looking forward to tonight's conversation, which I think is going to be exciting and kind of a straight continuation of last week's podcast that we did about what it means to be a man in the modern age, kind of riffing off Scott Galloway's new book, Notes on Being a Man. So yeah, interesting stuff tonight, Marc. How are you coming into this conversation today? Marc Winter (00:54) Mmm. I need to tell you, it's been a week. I'm so happy it's Friday and it's been a mix of big announcements. It's been a mix of seeing old friends and overindulging. It's been a days of detoxing. It's been a days of, you know, imagining. like, and ⁓ and then connected to the subject, it's also being a hardcore father throughout. And by that, mean early wakeups. putting kids to bed, sick kids throwing up and being sick and you know, you know, teaching life lessons, all of it, you know, what about you? Paul Fattinger (01:39) Mmm, I love that. All of it. All right. All right. All right. All right. I know. I mean, I've spent just a full week of work, to be honest, and my back hurts because I haven't been sitting like this in a long time, to be honest, and actually doing stuff. So I'm like, I'm... No, I'm not, you I mean, I've been trying to, you know, yeah, actually I did two or three this week. I'm quite proud. Marc Winter (01:56) You ⁓ You haven't been a slide monkey in a really long time. Yeah Paul Fattinger (02:09) And so, so no, that's, I'm good. I'm good. It's been like, you know, the one thing that I never ceases to amaze me is how busy everything gets by the end of the year and how it always feels like this is the end of the world and we need to get everything done now. Marc Winter (02:21) Crazy. Paul Fattinger (02:27) And it's the same with buying Christmas presents where I have great ideas in November and I'm like, ⁓ I have enough time. And then all of a sudden it's a week before Christmas and I can't get the shit anymore that I wanted to get because I forgot and I hate it. So, and what I can't believe about this is this is happening every year and I don't seem to zero learning curve, like zero is flat. It's actually going down. Marc Winter (02:44) All right. This is so relatable. This totally this is so relatable. Can I tell you what the Christmas gift that my brother was a genius thought of or was a genius at that point in time thought of but then is an idiot because he didn't buy right away a black Friday gift. So my dad you ready the Japanese toilet. That was a gift for my dad a Japanese. I like it was it was such you know because my dad is a cane and kind of walks you know. Paul Fattinger (03:02) No, yes, mean, me. ⁓ fuck. That's awesome. Marc Winter (03:16) And like the Japanese toilet, you know, like you walk in, automatically lifts up and goes like, like angels singing, you know? Paul Fattinger (03:20) I'd love one. Yeah, I know. I actually spent, mean, I, you know, I mean, I don't, I'm not a stranger to spending a lot of time, you know, in the bathroom and with the toilet like this, I would move in. It's like, I'll be like, Hey, my friend, how's it going? You know, in the age of AI, can you imagine how they're going to actually develop these things? Marc Winter (03:33) Yeah, it is. There's a hundred percent there is a there's got to be a podcast you could do on this should be it We should do a gift giving podcast of course will be too late, but about gifts that make your life five percent better or more. Yeah, the January first Oh, no, we should do what should you return your gift for yeah Paul Fattinger (03:49) Let's do it on January 1st. Which is great actually because people can actually go and exchange. exactly. We're gonna do exactly that. We have great ideas. Marc Winter (04:02) Well, that's great. Yeah, but I yeah, we really do. Yeah, I really like this, you know, fight if your life increases 5 % or more. That's the that's the that's that's the perfect gift. Yeah. I think Japanese toilet might be 10 % better. Yeah, they really do. Paul Fattinger (04:09) You That's a great threshold. I mean, it's a very subjective. Yeah. Oh, that's, that's, I am usually, oh, it depends on how much time you spend on it. You know, I mean, to me, 25. I did read this the other day though, that people, no, no, no, but listen, I think maybe the stat is wrong. I'm going to Google it. You know how much time people spend on the toilet in their lifetime? Marc Winter (04:24) Well, for you for sure, least minimum. ⁓ This is where we lose our audience. I don't want to know. Please tell me men versus women. Paul Fattinger (04:46) Okay, spin, spin. On a toilet. Marc Winter (04:47) or fathers, father. Paul Fattinger (04:49) I don't know, what do you think? Give me a guess. Marc Winter (04:51) Okay, at least a year, right? Paul Fattinger (04:55) I also think so. I also think so. Marc Winter (04:56) Yeah, but I would also like to ⁓ men pre-children and then post-kids because that's the leap forward in time. Paul Fattinger (05:03) I don't know that. the very interesting thing is it's about the same time and it's about three years. Marc Winter (05:11) Hmm. Three years, okay. You can add one. You know, you're at four at least. Paul Fattinger (05:15) Yeah, there are extreme estimates, know, there are men up to two hours a day, which is not... Okay, I think we need to somehow... Maybe this is gonna be a part we're actually finally gonna edit. Marc Winter (05:21) Those are the guys really hiding from their kids. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Who's sponsoring you today? Paul Fattinger (05:37) That was great. Austin Dörfern. I think I've had it already before here. I don't know actually. It's a very wide label. Very, very nice. Rosy Schuster, Burgenland. QV of... What the fuck, I don't know. Very nice. 13.5%. It's got a bit of a punch. Nice. And yourself? Marc Winter (05:53) Mmm. nice. I will meet your 13.5 with another 13.5. So I've got crosshomotage domains, Jean Esprit 23. This is the kind of one that you wouldn't like because it's so silky and yeah, but I love that kind of stuff. Nice Sarah. It's nice to actually finally be drinking with you on this podcast because I feel like I've been Yeah, actually, we need to Paul Fattinger (06:02) Oulala! Heavy motherfucker. Nice. dude, it's been ages, it's been ages. We should actually reintroduce those Friday sessions actually. I like them. Marc Winter (06:23) Mm. Me too. mean, that could be a heavy drinking episode too. Paul Fattinger (06:26) We're gonna do that. Although I didn't want to drink tonight because it's kind of a Christmas party tomorrow, but hey, whatever. Listen, you only live once. My friend, I gotta ask you, we did this last episode on what it means to be a man, which already kind of sounds crazy to talk about it like that. So in the aftermath of this, what were your thoughts? Did you get any reactions to it? Marc Winter (06:33) Fuck it, dude. It's the holidays. Exactly. You're gonna show it that way. ⁓ Mm. I think I love the little clip that you kind of struck out about kind of magic. I think it was my point, not to pat myself on the back, but about the magic of vulnerability and how that's a unique type of tool that a modern man should explore more of. And I think everyone who I've talked to casually has agreed with that and that resonated with them. It's the first time we kind of like commented on ⁓ kind of a media personality. so the feedback journal was just curious and good. What about you? Paul Fattinger (07:22) Yeah. No, I got a friend, old friend. I wouldn't say blowback, but I got a message on LinkedIn from a former colleague and friend who said, like, I just saw about your podcast. What's your goal with it? And why do you talk about being a man? And I was like, ah, interesting. So we kind of exchanged a few messages back and forth. in the end, think it was very, it doesn't matter whether it was positive in the actually. Marc Winter (07:25) Would you get blowback? Paul Fattinger (07:51) But it made me also think and reflect a little bit, right? Because my first reaction when I just read the first sentence was a bit like, oh, fuck, did we do something wrong? yeah, it made me think that is a very big topic. And obviously, our perspective, and I hope that was also clear to everyone, is limited to, and I think we've said it, where we are. in a very, as we often jokingly say, privileged white male midlife position. And there's lots of men out there that I, you know, that we cannot probably relate to in terms of how they, you know, orient themselves or sexually or where they are in life and blah, blah. That might have a totally different experience. And so we are, I don't think by any means saying this is what you should be and the man should be A or B or C is kind of more like. Marc Winter (08:43) No. Paul Fattinger (08:44) Interesting to see how this discussion develops, I think, and what it means to all of us respectively. Marc Winter (08:51) ⁓ it's just two smart friends vibing on the topic and trying to align to some point of view and but not come down from the From the mountain with the tablet and say here's what it is. So Yeah, that's the that's my point of view, but appreciate all the comments by the way Paul Fattinger (09:03) Yeah. Yeah. So that I thought is like there's obviously so many different aspects of it. And actually we got a comment on Instagram, someone saying, you know, clip I posted of you about vulnerability and this guy kind of posted, you know, don't become pussies. And I thought that was exactly the interesting piece. Marc Winter (09:25) Everything in moderation. Paul Fattinger (09:27) everything in moderation. and the other thing that I was kind left with was I wasn't sure if, because the thing I was still wondering about was like, so I think we had discussed about fathers, you know, right, and how they changed over time. And we kind of weren't clear how the fathers of the fifties that went to war were better than the fathers of the nineties and two thousands who didn't, right? So I kind of, and we kind of talked about this and then Marc Winter (09:39) Mm-hmm. Paul Fattinger (09:55) And then I read about it and I just wanted to set some kind of facts straight if you want or the record. And I thought it was interesting because the, the, this problem is now kind of like condensed is, is actually coming from, talked about this, this whole, school part, right? Uh, that the education system has shifted away from boys in generally, because there is almost no more male, uh, male teachers and so on. Um, so boys like kind of a Marc Winter (09:59) Okay, exciting. Paul Fattinger (10:22) template for if you want intellectual masculinity. And then we have this whole media stuff, which you kind of riffed on. It's like we had those classical, but still somehow in moderated male role models. I don't know, even Michael Jordan or Bruce Willis in the movie and kind of the media where everything goes into extreme was where you either have like your very extreme kind of what we talk about. toxic masculinity to vary on the other side. It's kind of hard to find the middle. And then the first one, the last one of this is the home, the debt deficit. And that kind of said, it's just what happened is that divorce rates went up so profoundly in the last 20 to 30 years that there's just a lot of kids and... Marc Winter (11:05) Mm. Paul Fattinger (11:07) Guess what? It's about 40 % of kids in the US and the UK that grow up without a father in the home. And that's insanity. And that is really, really interesting. And that kind of, yeah. Marc Winter (11:14) Crazy. Paul Fattinger (11:20) What's your take on that? Marc Winter (11:21) As a divorcee, and who's absolutely, at least from the outside end, done his work to be as present as he can to be there for his kids, what's your take on that? Paul Fattinger (11:35) I do think that's what got me so much when, or hit me so much when I first had heard or listened to those podcasts with Scott as well. And was that, and I was like, fuck, I need to be there. And it kind of obviously, you you get hit right into the guilt trap in all of this and so on. It's like, ⁓ I need to do better and I don't want my kids to be lost. And you know, have two boys and a girl. Marc Winter (11:46) Mmm. Mm. Of course. Paul Fattinger (12:01) So, you know, I don't want any of this for them, which, you know, quite frankly, I don't think I do. And I might even overcompensate for that at times. But yeah, that's what it does with. Marc Winter (12:10) Well, look, let's be clear. There's presence in this presence, right? And there's a lot of married couples whose fathers are just off on trips, not really there. And I don't want to say it's quality over quantity. I'm not sure I believe that. quality is obviously a huge part of the equation, right? And you can. Paul Fattinger (12:32) But you just talking about one thing that I find is very interesting. In a way, from what I've read also, in different pieces of literature, it's in this case almost true that quantity goes over quality. And it is the presence and the being there of a male role model or the absence thereof. Marc Winter (12:36) Mm. Yeah, I know. Yes. Paul Fattinger (12:56) that actually hurts. And I think we talked about this also in the last episode. It's much better to have an okay father at home or okayish or maybe even not super greatish but still somehow there and not falling outside of the norm than none, period. Or than one that only shows up three times a year and then is super nice. that quality time can't make up for it. So it is about having this figure at home. And that's interesting, I thought. Marc Winter (13:22) Not only cannot Yeah, it's super interesting. how, first of how far are you, you're what, like a 20 minute walk between where your sons are and to where your apartment, right? 10. That has to be really reassuring. That's pretty cool. I don't think a lot of divorced couples have that type of intimacy. And also, I mean, you guys are a nice model of trust between each other. But I, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (13:35) 10, 15, yeah. ⁓ Marc Winter (13:50) I think there's nothing that really ticks me off, if it's not wrong, from the quality piece. The father that comes six times a year, three times a year. Yeah. And then you do all the fun shit, right? Like, ⁓ I wasn't there for this. So your hamburger's now. Paul Fattinger (13:59) The Weekend Dead. Is a classical... Which I never wanted to be, know, which was one of the things I never wanted to be. And I kind of always understood that being there, you know, being there when something happens is important. I do think. And that is also presence, you know, so, you you just told me before that, you know, your son just, you know, came home early because he was sick and we started recording a bit later because you went out, put him in front of the TV. Marc Winter (14:21) Mm-hmm. I agree. Paul Fattinger (14:35) like any good parent would do at the end of the year put a little rum in his hot chocolate and came back to do what's really important right exactly so yeah you know or Marc Winter (14:37) Dad of the year. Exactly. Daddy's got a podcast. Drink wine. Came back. For clarity, my wife's out there, but you know, Paul Fattinger (14:55) Or your son comes home and he hurt his foot in football like my oldest always does. So every three months we go to the ER and then we do an x-ray and then they say it's nothing. And I said, really? No fucking shit. I didn't think there was, but okay. Great. I just spent two hours in the ER waiting room with you. So great bonding exercise, but it actually is. So I think in a way it's almost a, yeah, this quantity versus quality is in this case almost reversed. So there is a. Marc Winter (15:15) Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (15:25) Yeah, there is a baseline, I think, of presence that there need that from there on, think quality obviously matters, but below that, I don't think quality makes a difference. So that's that's a big one. Yeah. Do you think in a sense that the way you, you know, try to to be a father and your father, you know, was a father is different? Marc Winter (15:37) Yeah, Agreed. my god, I'm so glad you asked this. I've been meditating on this for some time. So I feel like I'm picking up on more and more of my dad's behaviors on how I'm parenting my kids. Paul Fattinger (16:03) yes, I mean, I know this, yeah. Okay, go ahead, go ahead though, yeah. Marc Winter (16:05) God, it's like it's a crazy pattern. You know, I'm like, oh, you know, when I when I like get really strict, but not that strict, you know, that's what my dad used to do. And like, you know, and really direct. And I, and they were drawn those patterns. And, know, I'm like, Oh, God, I can't believe I'm drawing on what I know, obviously, versus what is, know, and then there has been my wife is like really helpful in reframing a lot of my dialogue because I'm so direct. I was like, get in the car, know, get in the, like, we got to move. We're going to be late. Like, you know, just that stuff, right? Yeah. Just like normal, normal thing. And then realizing that if you're super happy and excited, which is really hard to be on five and a half hours of sleep and trying to get them to a school, like, but that F for extra bit of energy to do that will make your morning go so much easier. Paul Fattinger (16:41) I am here. Marc Winter (17:02) You know, like they just need to feel that. And I, I, and I, that's what I'm practicing right now. Paul Fattinger (17:03) yes. Okay, have you ever had these moments where, and usually those are the moments where, coming back to our great episode about the nervous system with Johannes, when you are a bit more going up that curve, right? That you said the exact same words as your parents have used with you. Marc Winter (17:22) Yes. Great question. All the time, ⁓ And what's so scary about it is the pattern recognition runs so deep. My dad last used those words probably when I was six, right? So I'm like, I'm just drawing on them again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And these are the most impressionable times. so I often tell my son, which I think is gentle, is like, yo. Paul Fattinger (17:33) Dude, but that's as shit. mean, like, I find. No, no, it's like engraved, like... Marc Winter (17:56) Listen, Felix, do this, otherwise we're gonna have a different kind of conversation, right? He doesn't know what that means. And that's me just trying to be gentle, right, and subtle. And then he plays it back to me, like, daddy, you know, you better read a book and then let me watch my movies, otherwise we're gonna have a different kind of conversation. He's like, three. I was like, did I just sentence him to saying he's gonna have a different kind of conversation to his own kids? Yeah. Paul Fattinger (18:13) Exactly, Yeah, but so, okay, so... No, I mean, listen, there's so many bad things I kind of repeat. But in a sense, where are the things that you think you do different? Marc Winter (18:32) You know, I actually, no, there are. I think I spend a lot of time on imagination with, my dad was pretty good about, actually, know, even more imagination, I guess. So my dad, the greatest gift my dad ever gave me, I think, was an unlock. I still come back to this. I think I was six years old. And you know, you have these sort of storytelling exercises where they, Paul Fattinger (18:33) Or I do. Marc Winter (18:58) we call them mad libs in almost where like you start to tell a story and then something's blank, know, a man went to the blank of this, this, this. And I was struggling with it so much. I was like, where do you go daddy? It could be, and when he said it could be anywhere to the moon, daddy went to the deep in the ocean. And then it just sort of created this weird unlock inside of me that made me think, wait, like anything could happen, you know, and, Paul Fattinger (19:26) Anything, anything? Marc Winter (19:27) Anything, anything, right? And then I would start to write down, write down. And I realized I wanted to bring that in a lot earlier. So, and dial it up even more, because I feel like that's the best kind of space to inhabit. So maybe it's not different, more amplified, if that makes sense. Paul Fattinger (19:41) Okay, that's nice though, that's super nice. ⁓ Marc Winter (19:44) Yeah, yeah, what about you? Paul Fattinger (19:46) To me, it is, I wouldn't say a lot, yeah, it is different. And I kind of want... Marc Winter (19:54) We should also point out there's like a significant age difference in our kids, right? I mean, my eldest is four. So there's a good tenure. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (20:00) And mine is 11. Yes, yes, yes. And I think that's also, I think what I'm, I'm almost going to, I'm looking forward to us having this conversation in five, six years. And I know you, you, you being where I am now and me basically having the kids out of the house and then having this, this one again in 10 years, because I think that's a very good one, right? This role changes over time significantly. and, but also what is interesting, and I some research, how it changed over the course of time. Marc Winter (20:08) Exactly. Mm-hmm. Paul Fattinger (20:28) let's say over the past 200 years or so. there's a theory that says there three eras of fatherhood almost. There was the era one, which they called the moral teacher, which was the pre-industrial world where dad worked at home because it was mainly farming. And he was very clearly the boss and physically present, I guess, in many ways all day and responsible for moral education as well. then Marc Winter (20:28) Mm. Paul Fattinger (20:55) With the dawn of the industrial revolution, it kind of changed to area two, the provider, which meant that went to work, wasn't at home so much, became basically a bit of the wallet and the disciplinarian and provided security. And I think there's other theories that kind of, you know, made this analogy with and prosperity, right? And there's this analogy that I thought was nice is in a different book, it said, you know, the father provided the roof, which was the prosperity and the security. Marc Winter (21:06) Hmm. Hmm. and prosperity. Paul Fattinger (21:24) and the walls, which was the discipline. Very clearly, you know, this is where we are. then, which is error three, which we're in right now is the involved debt, where the debt is expected to be a provider and a nurture, right? And changes the diapers and is emotionally vulnerable and present and all these kinds of things that we kind of talk about right now, which I find very interesting as a... Marc Winter (21:27) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (21:52) as a change. as I think about this, think my dad was clearly in the era two ⁓ spectrum of things. And naturally I'd love to be different than that and provide more of the nurturing and these kinds of things. And that's kind of what's, which I want to be. And I'm going to finish my monologue very soon. Marc Winter (22:00) Mmm. Mm. Era 3. Paul Fattinger (22:16) I had a coaching session the other day, which was very interesting, where this coach asked me the question, what would you think of yourself as a father if you didn't provide for your kids? If you weren't able to pay for those things or pay alimony as it is in my case, what would you think? Would you still consider yourself enough of a father? And that got me deeply because it really, really touched me because I had doubts that I would think of myself as a good father if I wasn't able to provide. Marc Winter (22:51) I 100 % agree with that. I don't think I could either. Paul Fattinger (22:55) Which is interesting, right? Because is that the only role? Marc Winter (22:59) No, it's not. It's an and. Paul Fattinger (23:00) Or are you less of a father if you don't provide? Marc Winter (23:03) Look, I- There are exceptions to every rule, of course. You can fall in hard luck. Well, you can fall in hard luck. You can make poor decisions. There are all kinds of reasons to not provide. But if you can and you're not, I think that's a challenge. I think providing is a foundational part of fatherhood and parenting. It doesn't mean provide to the best private schools, but like, Paul Fattinger (23:07) It's always a good start. Marc Winter (23:30) to do the basics, at a minimum. Shelter, walls, I mean, think providing rules and moral structure is important and grounding. And if you're just talking about material things, then, yeah, otherwise who else will, the mom? Sure, she can, fully, but it's a collaborative effort. Paul Fattinger (23:43) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, okay, okay, wait minute, ⁓ this is, is, on a penalty point without a goalie, but almost, if... Marc Winter (23:57) I don't think I'm stepping into it like you think, but go ahead, finish it. Paul Fattinger (24:00) No, no, no, but listen, I mean, it could be very likely that, you know, what if, you know, your wife had a job that it made five times would you make and that would require you to, you know, basically stay home and then you wouldn't be providing and you will be as a family and as a team, but how would you feel about that? Marc Winter (24:13) Nice. My quick trigger brain didn't entertain that scenario at the moment, and I should have... I think that is... How do we find and welcome, I would love that problem. I would love that problem. Would it create a shift a little bit in the paradigm of, it would, it would. But I mean, I think that's a kind of kick ass kind of situation. I would love if Vera suddenly, you know. Paul Fattinger (24:38) What? But how would, I mean, yes, it would change the dynamics of who spends time with what and so off, how would, if you think about it deeply, yeah. Marc Winter (25:03) No, no, no, that's what I'm thinking. I would really have to, yeah, yeah, no, I'm honoring the provocation because I really am. There's pleasure, weirdly, I don't know if you feel this, about spending some of your hard-earned money on your kids on some bullshit. Not all things, but just some, where you're like, oh yeah, okay, like. Paul Fattinger (25:20) Totally agree. Marc Winter (25:25) I put some time into this, effort into this, I'm giving it to my child. I think that there's something about that that feels right. But I also think I could get around that with the right number and focus on, no, I mean, really, like, I mean, it's also about experiences and not the tangible. mean, I think this is what we're holding on, telling ourselves in this paradigm. But, you know, Maybe another question to ask, if I had several zeros, three extra zeros in my bank account, how would I spend my time with my child? And it's a little bit different. And I would be absolutely more weaning in and trying to give them the biggest wealth of experiences over things. And that's my truth. And I think the reality is that in this current construct of that we both have to work, et cetera, I can't give them that time and I can give them some limited experiences. So I make it up with things, you know? And if I had limited resources, it would be different. actually it's the first time I thought about it that way, but I think I agree with it. What do you think? Paul Fattinger (26:28) Yeah, no, no, and I hear you, right? And in a sense, we've talked about this in this is a reference, an episode where we refer to all the other episodes about ambition and parenthood. we, right, because all connected, right? So and we talked about it and in a sense, and I think I've said this before, I mean, for me personally, I have made a very clear decision that is true for me right now. And that might be different in a couple of years time that Marc Winter (26:38) as it should be right because it's fatherhood we're drawing on our own lessons. Yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (26:56) that where I am at the moment and with the age of my kids, that their age is my most perishable good that I own, if you want, in a sense. Because they will be older and out of my hair very soon. While my health will also obviously deteriorate, but I can manage, I can do something about this. My career is the same. I mean, can still be in 44. Marc Winter (27:04) Hmm. It's a good phrase. Paul Fattinger (27:21) in six, seven years time, I'm going to be 50. can still do, you know, I still have 20, 25 years to work if I want to and do whatever, you know, comes along. so I kind of feel this is a very clear time where to set a priority on this. And I wouldn't want to have a job right now that deprives me of that presence. And that might just mean, that doesn't mean I just chill out and stay at home all the time. But, you know, I've, you know, I talked about a job, you know, some weeks ago. Marc Winter (27:41) Hmm. Paul Fattinger (27:49) would have been abroad and not far by any means but I didn't feel okay doing that because that call I might get from you know my ex-wife that one of the kids needs to go to the hospital I would like to be there and at least have the chance of doing it. I might sit in Vienna in an office and couldn't that's also possible but if I'm in Zurich or Munich I can't for sure period and that makes me nervous. Marc Winter (28:04) Good Yeah. Can I share? I think this is what you just said is felt by, I would say, 90 % of the people I talk to at our age. There's something about, and I also think COVID, we don't really talk about it this much, just generally had such an outsized impact on us collectively as human beings. about what matters and about time. And I feel that, you know, we had collectively this awakening and everyone is making moves without actually naming why. And it's not that COVID is recalls, it's about time, right? And how precious it is because, you know, that was a singular event in our lifetime where time was given to us. Paul Fattinger (28:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc Winter (29:02) And we appreciated it, right? was just an unbelievable, that's when we saw that gift, right? It was the ultimate, you know, outside of the natural suffering and the death and we know that and we shouldn't gloss that over. But nonetheless, like for those that kind of went through it, you know, that was that gift. And you had this rewiring and reorientation, I think it matters because once you had that, you never want to go fucking back to like a way of looking at the world that didn't. Paul Fattinger (29:03) Yeah. It's a present. Marc Winter (29:30) see the opportunity and beauty of that gift, right? And, you know, so hearing you talk about it is probably not something you would have said maybe pre-COVID. You might have been like, gone killer. So like, maybe it's not a, or maybe, entertain less. Let's go that way. Paul Fattinger (29:44) It's interesting. think there's, I mean, let's, I think that's, that's first of all, say, this is also a, you know, as a privileged, we can say it's from previous position, because I don't, I can choose for most parts where I do my work. And if I do go abroad or stay here and with all the work I do, I can make a living and provide, you know, or would be able to And then that's a great position because some people don't have that and they need to sit in a car or plane every week to go wherever. So I think that's clear. Marc Winter (30:18) Yeah, but that's what makes you a very good philosophical experiment, because you have choices. Paul Fattinger (30:23) Yeah. No, okay, have choices. in that, but on the other hand, I still see lots of people out there that with more zeros in the bank account than I have by far, that still make choices on the careers versus that. that I find more interesting. There's also very interesting. And I don't want to judge at all here, but I find that interesting. Yeah. Marc Winter (30:48) Oh, you can. I mean, it's not wrong to like, it's funny. I mean, I think the trade offs are real and you can't escape them. I think that's a real that's a really important thing. You know, you were talking about this when in our back in our measurement episode. And I think we all know now not its data that it Paul Fattinger (31:00) No, you can't. Marc Winter (31:15) The data shows that we have the empirical evidence, of course. But time not spent with your kids now is gonna bite you in the fucking ass later. You cannot make it up for them later. We all know that. Paul Fattinger (31:23) Yeah, listen, you can't repeat the statistics often enough, right? You spent 80 % of the time you spent with your kids in your lifetime until the age of 12. So that's clear. And everybody tells me who has kids that are older says, yes, but the time afterwards is also very precious and great. And I fully agree. Yet still, we just need in terms of presence, that's where you need to be present because that's 80%. Marc Winter (31:31) Yeah. And yeah, and we've all seen back to like kind of where this kicked off, the people, we all know that people are trying to make up for the time that they've lost, right? Because they chose the different paths of going hard on either for financial reasons or other pursuits, et cetera. And they are trying to make up for and play up for those implications. But you know what the challenge is? like, that's the wrong, you're such a disadvantage, you know? you your life trying to recoup, you'll spend 20 years, 40 years trying to recoup what was lost or could have been gained in two. Paul Fattinger (32:22) Yeah, and then that's not very much a perspective of how we feel about it, right? But at the end of the day, what does it do to our kids and it makes a difference to them? Yeah, yeah, Marc Winter (32:32) That's just, well, that's my point. Because you spent 20 years trying to make your kids feel that you were there, right? And that you care about them, right? Which if you were just there for the two that mattered, or three, then they would have saved you, saved you. Paul Fattinger (32:43) Exactly. I apart from the fact that it's a futile effort for yourself, it's probably very depressing to realize that I think it's also, you know, what you do, what you can actually have a difference on your kids' lives when you are present right now. And they may be, and that's kind of my motivation that some of the things that I learned when I was 40 plus, that they can maybe, you know, be taught. earlier which to be honest with my almost in puberty 11 year old I've kind of lost faith already so but I guess that's the script as well because he tells me that you know basically to go fuck myself very often by now and and even more so to his mother but I guess that's life at least that's what everybody tells me but yeah I have this kind of feeling that there are some things that my parents weren't able to teach me because they were not there right they didn't have the capacity or Marc Winter (33:33) Yeah. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (33:35) or the back or whatever it was, right? That life was like it was. And I do, and I feel a responsibility to pass that on, to make it very clear. I remember I told you that Johannes gave me a sheet of paper with vocabulary of how I express my bodily feelings. I love my kids to be able to do that, just to give one example. Marc Winter (33:43) Mm. Mm. You know, you're... Yeah, you know, it's, you know, it's really interesting to draw, draw patterns and make it personal. You know, I really had a loving father, one who really was there and like in all the great ways that would give him a 10 out of 10 as a dad, and not like everyone could say that, you know, I think he would give his dad a six out of 10, roughly, or seven, you know, I think he tried to make up for that gap, you know, like that he didn't feel with me. And, you know, I'm the one of the Paul Fattinger (34:25) Hmm. Marc Winter (34:29) Amazing beneficiaries of that kind of generosity married, you know But he made a lot of choices also nothing who he married to you know, who's also a very generous woman You know who who naturally thought that way? You know hearing you talk to you know, it's a similar pattern, you know not to you know, it's like it's you son's gaps you're trying to make that up with your own kids and and And it's kind of interesting like for me Paul Fattinger (34:31) That explains a lot though, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc Winter (34:51) were almost different patterns to see. You have clear gaps to actually close, that you're like, OK, for the experience. And I'm like, OK, well, it was a really great experience. What would make you even better? Which is, a weird way, is even harder. I just want to point out that clear Paul Fattinger (34:54) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How can I, you know, yeah. No, no, I hear you. hear you. Not because to me, like the emotional availability, right? And I learned much later that there was, it was there, but probably never had the chance to connect in that way. And there were moments which it was, but there were many others where it wasn't where I guess I was lacking at that point, which then showed up later in my life. And obviously I'm trying to do this differently at the moment. Right. And, and then I find it, you know, and to be honest, I find it Marc Winter (35:18) Yeah. Hmm. Paul Fattinger (35:35) almost, I wouldn't say easier, but okayish with the boys. I think that's another interesting one versus my girl, because with the boys, it's like, you kind of feel how you were as a kid and you can relate to this and, you know, and, and, and then we, we hear, and I find that it's super interesting, right? That this, that actually there is a book. I don't know what it's called. I'm going to post this later, but it's. Marc Winter (35:43) Yeah, of course. Paul Fattinger (36:03) It's very interesting is about, you know, how important it is for boys to fight and kind of wrangle with their fathers, right? To be physical. It is hugely important. It's hugely important. And it's actually, you know what they said, is part of this got lost in this era too, when dads had to go to the factory, know, whereas they were at home before. And it's because it actually teaches the kids in nervous system regulation at the end of the day. Marc Winter (36:11) 100%. That's hugely important. They need that. Paul Fattinger (36:33) And they understand the difference between what is aggression and what is calming down. they kind of, that's what it takes and what they need, the physicality of it, the play of it. And that's also our role. are usually on average and not generalizing. And if you are not, you're not not a man, right? But in general, men are more open to risk taking than women are. And I think we... We as parents usually know that we do shit with our kids that if our wives would see that, they would kill us. We can say that now, 100%. So we're like, yeah, he's going to be fine. Marc Winter (37:03) 100%. I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've experimented with, you know, basically I'm a pro wrestler with my child in the bed. Paul Fattinger (37:13) Exactly. Or you kind of throw them in the pool, know, like five meters in and they scream and they're like, they look at you in the air. You see the eyes that their head is basically just eyes. They look at you in complete disbelief. Then they touch the water. They dive in. They eventually come up. You're like, fuck me, I'm happy they come up. They look at you and they start screaming of laughter and say, daddy again. Marc Winter (37:18) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. How far could I throw this? I think I Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're okay. What's the German word for deep panic between did I just injure my child or give him the best you can? Paul Fattinger (37:41) And you know, you don't, mean, you these are the moments. You're okay. It's like. He actually killed my kid. Exactly. I don't know what it is. It's like Herzsticht, and it's a heart attack. You're like, what the f... What did I just do? And then it's super fun, and you do it again. I mean, it's crazy. Marc Winter (37:56) Yeah, no, I did. Totally. Yeah, no, I replicated last last night or two nights ago, a move which I saw from like Street Fighter to the video came like close. was like, can I like take him like this spinner? And it was I know Felix did like three kind of helicopter spins in the air before landing on the bed, which I was kind of proud that I got three. And then he got up and laughed. He's like, Daddy, that was crazy. You know, started laughing. Paul Fattinger (38:07) Harkogan. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And the same is, I I wonder how it is with you. Like when your boys fight, does, do you have, I mean, who draws the line earlier, you or Vera? Marc Winter (38:35) No, Vera, obviously, you know, I'm just like, yo, what these guys do to you? Paul Fattinger (38:37) Of course. I mean, I'm also like, usually it's like, as long as they don't bleed, you know, let them and they don't throw fists, let them go because they obviously just need that. And they're like, it's stupid what they do. And it doesn't really even tick me off because I know, okay, know, I mean, boys need to be boys. And then you need to find the point though where you have to break it off because it can escalate quickly. ⁓ exactly. So, and on the other hand, you know, with girls and I find that is Marc Winter (38:42) Yeah. Well... Yeah, what simple beings we are. That's true. Paul Fattinger (39:07) That is an interesting one. There is a book called Strong Father, Strong Daughter, by Mika or something, is a famous one. And it basically says that the father-daughter relationship sets the biological and psychological standard for the future of your daughter's romantic relationships, which is like, Jesus, that's a big one. So basically they, what is it? Marc Winter (39:12) Yeah, it's a famous one. Well, you know, you know that Chris Rock joke, right? You know that Chris Rock joke, right? You got one responsibility as a father to a daughter. You got to keep her off the pole. Paul Fattinger (39:35) No. What's that? Yeah, Jesus. but it is about, know, because they look at you, because the first step, they look at you how you treat a woman, how you treat, you know, her mother and all of these things. And that's very much, you know, influencing her choice and everything. And there's another book that's quite famous in Austria, called The Absent Father in Germany, or I think The Absent or The Hurt Daughter is actually called. Marc Winter (39:42) Keeper. That's the point. That's the point. Mm. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (40:09) wounded daughter, and that's also hardcore, actually. Marc Winter (40:12) It's funny, I mean, know I'm taking it to an extreme, but in America we have this great radio, just jockey Howard Stern, who back in the day used to love interviewing the strippers and the porn stars, et cetera. And then he wouldn't even mess around. the conversation would be like, so tell me when the relationship between you and your dad broke down. It's like you just assume. And they would all be like, yeah, yeah. When I was five or six, don't think I laughed or whatever, this kind of stuff. Paul Fattinger (40:22) Mmm, of course, Marc Winter (40:43) The, and obviously this is an extreme case and I'm poking a little fun, but like the through line is so clear and tangible. So anyway. Paul Fattinger (40:51) Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. And there's maybe the last piece of literature, kind of advice we can give to the, that's also, thought is a nice picture. We talked about it before. It's like, you know, moving away from providing the roof and the walls, meaning the security and the discipline to being basically the scaffolding for your kids. So you kind of hold it all together and give them the... I know how you say the environment to grow and to prosper and to be something and I find that super nice, you know, about being with father and, and powerful. And I guess at the end of the day though, as everything you can also exaggerate, right? And if you worry about it too much, you probably also don't do too well. think that that's, is that what you call that in a helicopter parent, which I really, I don't think I am. Is that the thing right? Where? No, what's no, no, I'm not. Marc Winter (41:23) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and powerful. No, you're definitely not a helicopter parent. Helicopter parent is like you need to watch your kid do every single thing at any point anytime they're about to. No, no, you're the opposite. So. Paul Fattinger (41:48) No, no, I absolutely don't have the nerve for this, right? And so, but yeah, so as we saw in this, you know, it's important how we show up as fathers. It makes a difference. And to me, it of is, it almost feels right now, at least as the biggest responsibility that I have in my life, to be fair. Marc Winter (42:09) Well, you know, what I'm taking away from this conversation, a great, of course, is how our different experiences of our fathers have shifted or naturally influenced our approach of fatherhood right now. And I think what's really interesting is that, you know, this is an oversimplification, but you're trying to close gaps from your own experience. And I'm trying to amplify them, amplify an experience. And I think that's an interesting bifurcation. Paul Fattinger (42:21) Mmm. Marc Winter (42:37) that maybe we can talk about on another episode. for me, that's kind of the meat of this one, my friend. Paul Fattinger (42:44) Yeah, that's all. And that was surprising to me. And I love that insight. And to me, I kind of like this embedding my own experience into how fatherhood has evolved over time and the theories around this and kind of feeling a little bit also more at ease by reading up on all of these things that how we feel is how many others feel as well. And what we do. Marc Winter (42:48) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (43:10) in being here kind of out of our gut feeling mostly is not wrong because I also remember one thing that I never read a single book about being a father like my, you know, exactly like the mother of our children, exactly, has probably, you know, read three books when they were pregnant. So maybe you read this and then, fuck this shit. I'm not gonna read that. So actually now, you know, 11 years into fatherhood, I finally actually, I think ever. Marc Winter (43:20) Of not. It's the most fatherhood thing to do. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (43:37) Tried to read or learn something about this from a book Now you have a podcast. You don't need to listen to the book. This is a know, almost, you know The perfect summary that's just to be very very Modest here exactly the perfect summary don't read a fucking book. Listen to us Listen, my friend 47 minutes in what? Terminated an idiot of the week What are we thinking? What are you thinking? Marc Winter (43:46) Yeah, this is this is the best thing exactly. Exactly. Why write it? Am I going? Am I going doing both? Paul Fattinger (44:07) You go whatever you feel like, Marc Winter (44:10) Okay, I'm gonna reverse order. I'm gonna start with the idiots. So idiots for sure. FIFA this week, I gotta tell you, have you looked at the World Cup tickets? Insane. Like, oh my God. what, I mean, this is the most corrupt, insane bullshit you've seen. I mean, it's five, yeah, of course. But the tickets are five X what they were in Doha for the final. Five times. Paul Fattinger (44:14) Huh. Yes. I mean, did you see the show? No, that's insane. Marc Winter (44:39) Yeah, it's so stupid. And you know, look, I'm hoping to host you and friends here during the World Cup because I mean, AF space, you should come. And it's like one of the world's great parties of anything. Like, let's just, you know, have fun with the South Americans. Yeah, it's the best thing to do. But but absolutely idiots of the week. Now, the Terminators, you know, I want to give a real shout out. So, you know, I talked last Paul Fattinger (44:56) Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Marc Winter (45:08) several episodes ago about this special art project I've launched called The Great Reflection about recording podcasts ⁓ of our elders. So many people reached out, including ex clients and former CEOs of businesses who are like, this is a great thing. Can I either do this or can I be like CEO of this business? What is this business? And I'm like, guys, this is like an art project. Paul Fattinger (45:13) Mmm. Yes. Really? Awesome! I love this! Do it. Marc Winter (45:34) A shout out to my co-founder Chris Everett who is as lovely and genuine as a human as you can imagine. the right co-founder for this project and it felt really very validating for everyone who met him to say like that's a guy. So so cheers to you Chris. Paul Fattinger (45:49) I'm sure man, that sounds amazing. I also want to give my Terminator of the Week to a bunch of friends. had a Christmas dinner Wednesday night and before the dinner went out and just three of us for pre-drinks and right off the bat we had such a great conversation. It was almost about orgasms I would say, almost. But I was like, fuck me, we are growing up. We are growing up here. Marc Winter (46:07) Hmm. ⁓ Not brave enough for that one yet. Paul Fattinger (46:17) And I was quite impressed actually by the openness, vulnerability, you know, was, you know, topics that I'm 100 % five years ago we wouldn't have talked about. And it was super fun. And then we went on and it was a bigger group and we just talked shit for a night basically, which was also great. And my idiot of the week was something deeper, but then I just did this, did you do this Apple update and now everything looks weird? What the fuck is this? Marc Winter (46:40) Yes, it does. It's so stupid. It's like a Paul Fattinger (46:44) What the fuck is this shit? Is this the only innovation that is like half transparent and pseudo 3D? The fuck? Can I switch it back? Marc Winter (46:49) Well, can I tell you something? It's totally ableist. It's totally able. Like if you and I are struggling, we're pretty competent in tech. Imagine being 70. You upgrade your phone and like, well, yeah. Now this is there and this stuff. Like there's an elegance to the design I like. Paul Fattinger (47:00) Not the right way. I haven't even come so far, it just looks different and makes me nervous. It's like, what the fuck is this? So anyways, that's a very first world problem as well. And on that note, it was a pleasure. Marc Winter (47:19) It was amazing. I love this episode. Paul Fattinger (47:21) Yeah, me too, Okay, see you soon, I hope. Marc Winter (47:25) See you. Bye.