About modern masculinity - inspired (not solely) by "notes on being a man" | Ep 21

Marc Winter (00:10) Hello. Welcome to Guides Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, this is the podcast about all the things you start thinking about when you're in that uncomfortable or very comfortable midlife stage, ⁓ depending on where you sit. You'll hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friends. Paul Fattinger (00:26) Ha Marc Winter (00:29) fun nights out, all the amazing stuff that inspires us and all the things that continue to shape us moving forward. And we really hope there's something in there for you as well. Today's episode will be really kind of special in a way, because I think we're going to reflect on something out in the media, Scott Galloway's new book, Notes on Being a Man. But before we get into that, ⁓ I'm your host, Mark, dialing in from New York, and joined by my buddy Paul, dialing in from Vienna. Hey, Paul. Paul Fattinger (00:59) Hey Mark, how's it going man? Marc Winter (01:00) It's going well, how are you? Paul Fattinger (01:03) I am fantastic and great. just... Marc Winter (01:04) You've got a good smile on your face. I'm a little bit jealous of that smile. Paul Fattinger (01:08) Because I had three days of skiing in the bank already. The season has officially started. I just came back from an almost six hour long train ride with my kids. And I really got back into the house like 45 minutes ago, not even 40. They are already in bed, showered, homework done, which I should have done all weekend long, but that's a different story. And happy, happy because I was in the mountains. It was beautiful. Marc Winter (01:20) Okay. Paul Fattinger (01:37) could go on forever. yeah, bliss. Marc Winter (01:37) Look at this. Super dad. Paul Fattinger (01:41) I know, I don't think so, but it just really ran well. I mean, I'm going to send you some photos to make you jealous, but it was quite special. It was really special. I was there. It was the first time I was there with my kids and I showed them, my one of, if not my favorite place on this planet, to be honest, because I think it's fantastic. And it was lovely. And I was joined by my sister. And so we had a great time. When it was so, so to be honest, it was actually raining this morning and awful. And I thought of. Marc Winter (01:49) Yeah, how are the conditions? Do you wear leg? Mmm. Paul Fattinger (02:11) Coming home early, but it was great and we had lots of fun. No one got hurt Great. Yeah, how you doing? How are you doing my friend? Marc Winter (02:16) Awesome. Awesome. Good. Good. I am so took ⁓ a family trip out to the to the winery out in Long Island. Paul Fattinger (02:26) Mmm. Marc Winter (02:28) So got to taste some of the new vintages, I will say. ⁓ The new, the minimalist Cabernet Franc that my cousin Kareem just put out, the 2025 from Pomenock is a banger. Really, really good. ⁓ And you know, sometimes when you, no, I should be, I was going to ask you, I'm sponsored by ⁓ New York's finest, which is sparkling water. I want to get to that beautiful glass you're sipping on in just a sec. ⁓ But you know, it's always lovely to, Paul Fattinger (02:41) Here we go. Are you sponsored by them today? Marc Winter (02:57) meet people whose jobs you wouldn't mind having for a little bit. think being a winemaker is a very dangerous job, but my god, mean, was, it's a fun one when you're, not the farming part, but definitely the mixing and blending part. That's the most fun. Paul Fattinger (03:11) Yeah, man. I we've talked about this before. think it's just a tough job though. that looks... And I spoke to a guy today who, you know, running, you know, a bunch of great restaurants around Europe really, and also hearing how tough it is to actually make those things, you know, really, profitable. It's insane actually. It's a tough business. a tough one. Should talk about that too. Marc Winter (03:32) Yeah, well, I mean they are We should well they're competing with a lot of External forces, you know people are drinking glass. Obviously. I know you're doing your best to make up for it that global Paul Fattinger (03:43) Dude, I really am tonight. Because I was actually on the train sitting and thinking I need to cut it down now before Christmas because this is gonna be a long month, right? But then I knew what we're gonna talk about and I was so happy that everyone was in bed and then I had this new wine delivery coming in. was like, okay, fuck it. Fuck it, fuck it. That's why I have this Blaufränkisch Ried Hochecke, from whoever it is actually, don't know, Wenninger. Nice, nice, simple. Marc Winter (03:54) Yeah Okay, fuck it of course. Yeah, let's just let's just see what it is Paul Fattinger (04:13) Very simple. Perfect. One glass. Marc Winter (04:15) I can't wait till we're in the same time zone and we can crack those open together. I'm jealous. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (04:19) Yeah, man, but you know, if we're in the right... Actually, you used to do that. I mean, I'm not... just calling you out here. It's like... Marc Winter (04:25) By the way, I'm going to bring it back. There's going to be a few office closures. We're going to go hard. I can't wait for the holidays. But one thing before we move on, I just thought you have to laugh. So, you know, obviously it's Christmas season now, duh. But, you know, ⁓ we're having sort of a dawning in our household as my wife, Farah, is coveting having her own German Christmas traditions, which is very normal. And so it was Nikolaus Tag on the 6th. Paul Fattinger (04:32) All right, man, amazing. Yeah. Marc Winter (04:55) Right. Which of, yeah, yeah, which of course we huge, which of course we completely forgot about and messed up. Right. And then, you know, yesterday after we're waking up, we're like, God damn it. Like, you know what? It occurred to us. He doesn't actually know what date it is. Right. So we can just do it tomorrow. You'll look, you will never know. Paul Fattinger (04:55) Where's Nicolo? Yes. Big, big. That is, because everyone around him doesn't give a rat's ass. It is not, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (05:18) Yeah, they don't care. Like, it's not like an American holiday. I mean, there's a reason why we forgot. You know, it's not like we forgot Christmas. You know, like, it's around us. It was like this very cultural holiday. Paul Fattinger (05:25) No, no, no, listen, you didn't forget. You just took the dude, like ran him through the Coca-Cola marketing machinery and made him fucking, you know, Santa Claus. I mean, that's... Okay. Marc Winter (05:34) Yeah Yeah That's right. we had also explained the relationship between the two, you know, it says we said they're best friends. Yeah, yeah, totally Yeah, exactly well said well said well so then like it was like a mad rush to find like the like the German tradition stuff You know like on a Sunday in New York and so funny enough There's lethal is huge here. Like they keep opening up like crazy and there's one Paul Fattinger (05:41) Yeah, okay, fair enough. One is the OG and the other one is Coca-Cola's version. Yeah, we'll. Hmm. Hmm. And they had the bags and stuff, too? Really? Marc Winter (06:03) Everything like it's just it you know we could do like it's the most surreal aspect of like cross-cultural. don't know what ⁓ mix you have a Fairly in this where it is is a fairly low-income neighborhood in New York. You know they're selling discount you know Reds cheese whatever but but but you know for for like basically ⁓ blacks and Hispanics, know in some Chinese, you know and then Paul Fattinger (06:23) Yeah. Marc Winter (06:32) One corner is like Lebkuchen and Stollen. It's kind of crazy, right? So I know exactly where to go. So I grab them all. I was happy today. Paul Fattinger (06:38) That's crazy man! Amazing! But that's great. You know, next year, next year, I'm going to come over and I'm going to play the OG Nicolaus for you. Because you might not know this, but I mean, just a quick side quest here. This was one of my first jobs as a student when I was 16, 17. And I used the costume that my uncle had used to play Nicolaus for us. Marc Winter (06:53) Yeah, that'll be fun. Paul Fattinger (07:10) So back when I used it, it had already been like 20 years old or more than that. then I don't know, right, 15 or so. And then I took it and it has a beard and even a mask. So you can't see the face and you sweat below it. And it's like insane. But so I went to all my parents' friends doing it. And I made like a hundred shillings and like a few hundred shillings. I had my mom drive me around through the neighborhoods and I was going there and I was sitting and I took kids in my lap and told them stories and gave them things. And the tradition is that you open a holy book. Marc Winter (07:10) Really? Wow. Paul Fattinger (07:40) And in this holy book, you you say if the kid was naughty or nice, basically. So I had, you know, the parents sending it their naughty or nice list via fax, because that was like 1996, you know, and my mom cruising around like me in this Niccolo costume. It was amazing. I think I redid it a few times, like also in later ages than with other kids. But so I can do it for you. I'll do it for free. Marc Winter (07:52) Ha ha ha! ⁓ No, that's great. You don't want a hundred Austrian shillings? I don't even know how much that is. ⁓ Would be too bad. Okay. Well, you know that that is also no doubt you did for your own kids, which is ⁓ Paul Fattinger (08:09) Listen, if we inflate those, it wouldn't be too bad, but let's see, let's see. I actually never did it for myself or my own kids because they would have found out. My brother did, I think, for my kids at one point. I also remember when I found out it was my uncle, I was the oldest of three, or I am the oldest of three, and then I was wondering where this dude went and I was looking outside the window and I saw Nicolo getting into my uncle's car, which I knew everyone's car and that was the thing I had. I was like, what, what, what? Wait, and I turned around and told my brother and sister, I'm such an ass, this is... Marc Winter (08:23) ⁓ that's good. That's a good sign of a Wait a... That's how you do it exactly. Yeah, that's and that's who you still are my friend Well the story time over but but it's related to the topic that we wanted to have today because father figures like Nicolas Do you like that transition? yeah, yeah door bit in the zeitgeist because you know, I think ⁓ I You know, we we often for for our listeners, you know We often debate what we want to talk about during the week and you know Paul Fattinger (08:49) This is exactly who I was. exactly... I would hate if my oldest did that today. And I was exactly that. Okay. Story time over. Poo la la, I was digging deep here. Marc Winter (09:18) I submitted to Paul, Scott Galloway has got his new book out, Notes on Being a Man, which is very much in the zeitgeist. It's in every single ⁓ channel. I definition of overexposure, if you will, like where he is talking about this topic, especially in our media bubble. But I send it to you. said, look, since this is the conversation, at least for happening in this media cycle for the past week or so. Paul Fattinger (09:33) Especially in your bubble too, I guess. Marc Winter (09:45) And it's so core and relevant, I think, a little bit ⁓ to this podcast and what we're doing in terms of exploring modern masculinity and defining it. I thought we would open it up and talk a little bit about what he's writing about and react to it. How does that sound? Paul Fattinger (10:02) I think it sounds amazing. as we said, think a lot of he's been on and off on this topic for as long as not I know him, but I think for the past year and I remember us talking about it. I think, you know, Austin might be part of reason why we're doing this, you know, to a certain extent, I think it was related and it kind of came at the same time. And I know we had conversations about this when we were about to create this podcast. So no, let's talk about this, but that's really Marc Winter (10:21) It's definitely related. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (10:32) Maybe you want to introduce our listeners to what he's talking about so we know what's what. Marc Winter (10:34) Yeah, well, I think the source of it, first of all, I mean, think for those who don't know who Scott Galloway is, he's a renowned podcaster. He's a famous kind of NYU professor, he's an angel investor, he's kind of a big media personality. He also founded the brand agency Profit way back when. Sits on a bunch of boards and now hosts the pivot podcast and other stuff. But he's been riffing on this notes on how to be a man for reason he's been spotting kind of the need for a broader conversation around what modern masculinity is and is calling actually for an aspirational vision of masculinity. And so I thought like, just to clarify the why, at least in this country, we might surface a little bit. I'm curious what's happening in Europe or particularly in Austria. But you know, if I can pull just share some statistics, I know our listeners love that, you know, At at least in the States, at colleges and universities nationwide, female students outnumber males by about three to two. Among young adults, men are more likely than women to live with their parents by their mid-30s. More than 15 % of men still live with their folks compared to less than 9 % of women. Men die by suicide, which is crazy. ⁓ About three and a half times the rate of women do. ⁓ Men's real wages are lower for the 10th and 50th percentiles of earners than they were in 1979. crazy. Well, it means like, mean, they are lower, so if like you're the 10th percentile, like for in the 50th, meaning basically, they're just lower and lower income, middle class, middle class and lower class than in 1979. You're basically making less money. Yep. And, you know, the currently the unemployment rate among young men with bachelor's degrees between the ages of 23 and 30 is close to double that of their female peers. So you could argue Paul Fattinger (12:00) What does that mean? Hmm. OK. Yeah. In real terms. ⁓ Marc Winter (12:29) You know, we're living in a moment where, I mean, it's not that, I think socially, we've done a lot, I think, as a society to elevate women and close the gender gap and certainly the employment gap. Obviously, that's a very nuanced story. We can talk a lot about, there's the Me Too movement. There's what COVID also did, you know, for setting women back. But this is very much centered around men and their own struggles, I think. And particularly, think white men is a big part of that. but I'll pause there about the statistics and ask you just clearly like, you know, that's the call or let me bring it home. In some, I think he feels like men are increasingly isolated. They're lacking a shared sense of purpose. They are not doing as well as their own fathers. And a generation is feeling mixed and lost due to a number of forces that could be some mix of shifting economies, instruction of social media, proliferation of porn, blah, blah, blah, right? Stuff we're all familiar with. Paul Fattinger (13:34) Yeah. And maybe to round this off, I mean, you could argue and kind of say, well, finally, right? I so we closed the gap. So finally, this generation of men is doing worse. What's the problem with it? I mean, women did worse in socioeconomic terms for centuries. However, women didn't tend to blow themselves or others up. ⁓ Marc Winter (14:03) Totally. Paul Fattinger (14:04) rarely the source of domestic violence and so on. So I think that that's kind of where he says this is an important problem in our society. And we because I think 98 % of shooters in mass shootings are male. I think that's another one of those statistics. So this is a problem because they get lonely and violent and they fuck society up. I mean, I think this is a little bit exaggerated, but that's kind of like why we need to worry about this, right? Marc Winter (14:08) War, Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Paul Fattinger (14:30) Yeah. And I think it's daunting for me mostly because I'm the father of two boys. whenever I listened to this, I think the last time I have in my head listening to this was in his podcast he did with Steven Parkland and Diary of a CEO, which must've been around May or June. the same stats and so on. And what I was really thinking about was my boys. Marc Winter (14:39) Mm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (15:00) because it was a lot about father figures and who do they model, what is the model for the new generation. And it kind of, to me, underlined the decisions that I've been taking over the last 12 months or so to prioritize also this part of my life for them. Knowing, however, that already they are in quite a privileged spot, but nevertheless, gave it a little bit more focus and spotlight. than I would have originally thought of. Marc Winter (15:32) Do you, well, speaking of father figures, I've been thinking about that a lot too, also as the father of two young boys. And I often think about who were mine kind of growing up, when I was four or five and six or 10. And is there a market evolution in terms of, well, they're your father figures and maybe your heroes, and those that are being kind of sold to you. I guess, I think I'd asked you this a little bit in a previous podcast, but I think we're... I'm just curious, like, who are your male heroes growing up? And would they embody what modern mass community is today in your view? Like, has that shifted? Paul Fattinger (16:15) ⁓ So my my my male role models of father figures was my father very clearly. And I think I tried to model this after this until my late 30s, which ended straight in my midlife crisis. mean, to be honest, because I figured that finally it took me a while to figure out that I was running after something else. And we've talked about this, but it wasn't a bad father figure, I think, for the time ⁓ and so on. And I don't Marc Winter (16:29) Hahaha! ⁓ Paul Fattinger (16:45) And clearly it has changed. I think it will be a different father. But what I'm kind of wondering if we, when we're listening to those stats is like what happened to kind of the fathers and the examples of the fathers of the now, I guess the generation sets, right? That we're talking about the kids in their twenties right now, whose parents are probably now in their fifties and early sixties. So what happened with, you why, why are they such a bad generation? Was it? kind of were they worse fathers than like our fathers were that came from the previous generation? I'm wondering what is kind of the root cause of this? Or is it like you said before, the social media, the way the education system works, right? For example, as well, which is one of the other things that it works way better for girls than it works for boys in a sense. I don't know, but hasn't it always, I don't know what it is. I'm wondering about that. Marc Winter (17:29) Mm. Sure. Well, reaction is, know, all of them. That's the point. know, like, like, I think everyone has like, there's so many forces that I think lead to that kind of answer. But I do think there isn't, if I had to root cause it a little bit, I don't think there's a shared vision for what masculinity is. can share examples, least like what I remember of like, of what they were and not that they were great, you know. Paul Fattinger (18:05) Totally is not, yeah. Marc Winter (18:09) So, you know, back to my training of being schooled either in media or politics, you I think about either, you know, as a product of the 80s and early 90s, you know, you had, you know, Reagan as a kind of steadfast political president that was kind of half charm, half strength, you know, the movie stars were the Bruce Willis and the Stallone and the Terminator. Paul Fattinger (18:36) I was thinking of Bruce Willis just now. So funny. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marc Winter (18:38) Yeah You know you're like, know kind of kind of there and you know, I think like Later on in the 90s like they the muscle sort of faded away and there were a little bit more vulnerable guys like the Keanu Reeves for the matrix kind of thing and you know, maybe that but you always had but there was never I'm trying to think of like a Like you your movie stars your charmers, but like like a people who point to like that was like a type of man like a John Wayne or a type of you know, we do the people pointed to is like, that's it, like be like that person, you know, that wasn't either a pope or, or, you know what I mean, or some type of moral center, you know, and that's either maybe because we have more divisive times, but to me, it's Paul Fattinger (19:24) Yeah. Marc Winter (19:35) But maybe the other thing and this is really interesting is maybe Paul's because We live in an era where we get to know too much about a human being and so it's so easy every time that you Elevate someone as a as a person of quality and interest You know, you're you know, I'm still waiting for Tom Hanks to get to get you know Brought down but you know as a serial molester of cats, you know, but But the point being is that you had the myths from the older times and it was easier to be a myth. And now I think the full exposure of someone makes it challenging to, we have to shift our narratives about kind of who they are. Paul Fattinger (20:22) Yeah, I'm just thinking, ⁓ usually, I do think, though, as generations of parents that we evolve, right? So if we think of our grandfathers, my dad's father, was in World War II for as long as it took, ⁓ since the age of 18 until the end of the war, 25. ⁓ for sure had some issues out of this, right? I mean, no one came out of any war on scath and without trauma and then raised his family. And then my dad with all of this and so on and so on. But I think, we and then me, so we get better over generations. I don't think this is a crisis of the father figure, you know, because I think in general, the father figures, they evolve and they get in general, think as a population, we get more reflected. And I actually do think that the fathers Marc Winter (20:50) Yeah, of course. I agree. Hmm. Paul Fattinger (21:17) that are now in their fifties and early sixties are more effective than the fathers that are now in their seventies and eighties, right? They already had, you know, pieces exactly. there's, all of this, I do think it's more socioeconomic impact that is happening there because I think we just still kind of are, you know, as, kids rode the boomer wave in the sense of our, you know, that our parents had that everything just went up, up, up and they're built, you know, they built a certain time. Marc Winter (21:23) There's certainly more in tune. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (21:46) wealth and provide us with opportunities. also for us in the very beginning, it still went up, up, up, up until to the point where we had good jobs and we, you know, in our generation was kind of in a driver's seat when then things started to go sideways a little bit. And I think that's kind of the biggest problem because, and I think that's finally enough also another interesting problem that we are talking about, you know, the problem that men have that our generation doesn't have. Marc Winter (22:02) Mm. Paul Fattinger (22:14) We're talking here about something that is happening, you know, kind of behind us in a sense, whatever, from whatever perspective, look at it, people that are 20 years younger than us, so it's clearly not our generation, any means, and we don't really know, because we don't know how their fathers were, we don't know how their lives look today, and neither does Scott Galloway, by the way, I mean, he can look at the stats, and probably his boys are getting, you know, towards that age too, where that becomes more relevant. Marc Winter (22:21) Yeah, no, that's right. Paul Fattinger (22:41) But I really do think that economic realities and chances and opportunity have shifted and that obviously young men are, for whatever reasons, not as adept in being resilient to those changes and to new realities that the world brings. Marc Winter (23:00) I think I'll totally that that resonates and I think it's it's partly because the There's not a queer story back to the shared of envision or shared principles of what I think masculinity modern masculinity is You know, I think bringing back to some of his points because just ⁓ what she puts in his book Which is I'll throw out here just for fun You know the first being out like you know masculinity is a story that we inherit not one we choose I agree with that, know, like there's a right Paul Fattinger (23:22) Mmm. Totally. Marc Winter (23:31) how it's muddled and I think the act of, I think what he argues, which we would agree with, the act of being, growing into manhood is making that story uniquely your own. know, figuring out what you're gonna keep, what doesn't work for you, what's gonna shed, what chapters you need to write to use the metaphor. I find like, but there were a lot of avenues back to like what's different, know, growing up for us, like we had several channels. ⁓ To get a story about narrative. There's a lived experience of our fathers and you know our day-to-day and there was kind of in the media what we would read in the books, right? Not to make this a social media problem. That's a little bit with Jonathan Hay talks a lot about but like, you know when you go on to To the social channels you're getting you know an infinite what seemingly infinite, know input on what manhood is or isn't Which I find a little bit different anyway So like, it's a, I guess I'm trying to emphasize your, story, you get too many inputs to synthesize the story for yourself is my thought. No. Paul Fattinger (24:37) not sure about this one to be honest. I don't know, but my gut feeling tells me I'm not sure that Marlboro Man was a great influence either, right? And the fact that a wife beater was okay, you know? And I don't think there were any better or worse than Andrew Tate that is out there. It's obviously horrific as an influence on young men. But I think the first question is why are you in a position in the first place to be vulnerable and open to bullshit like this? and to bullshit examples like this. And I do think in a sense, maybe it is an economic reality for the reason that, you know, more and more women actually came into higher education, which is a great thing, and we're just better than men at it. Right. For all the right reasons, because we're just better at it. They're better at studying and they were, you know, and I know this is, you know, this is one of the things that he's citing that boys are, you know, also by their, the development of their brains. behind girls, especially early on. So especially through elementary school, it's tougher for them to perform because their brain is a year behind. And there are some countries that are even considering ⁓ having boys start a year later in school. So they started seven, girls started six. Yes, because that is a big thing, apart from the fact that most of the teachers are female and there's way too little male role models in those jobs as well. Marc Winter (25:54) Really? yeah. Paul Fattinger (26:05) and kindergarteners and teachers and so on. So all of these, I mean, this is, taking this out of these conversations I listened to with him that are contributing to this. then the fun next phenomenon, I think, and then there's COVID in their lives as well, which we didn't, you we experienced as an interesting period of our lives that was over soon. For many of those kids, this was when they graduated high school and were about to go to college and all of a sudden they sat at home, not fun either. So that's kind of a thing. And then there's all this dating crisis, which I find very interesting that he also talks about is that, know, that women tend to date up. Meaning a woman is very unlikely to date a man of lower social status. Right. While a man is usually dating sideways or down. Right. So in the old society that worked pretty well because men Marc Winter (26:47) Yes. Paul Fattinger (27:02) for all the wrong reasons, had the higher education, had good jobs, made more money. So all of a sudden now, you end up with more women in college, meaning more women, especially up until the point where they have kids, when all these things start getting off to be off again. But in this time between, let's say, 23 and 30, when you are in your prime, mating and finding your marriage to partner age, women, especially of a higher education, women on average have better jobs than men. Marc Winter (27:05) Yeah, of course. Paul Fattinger (27:32) So actually the men that are really ⁓ interesting for women represent a very small percentage of the male population. So they get all the choice, they get all the fun. They usually don't choose them, which is also funny enough because they have so much choice, while the other 80 or actually 90 % of men is really fucked because they don't find anyone and find very easy solace in porn and blah blah blah, all of these shit styles. Marc Winter (27:42) Yeah, that's right. Mm. Paul Fattinger (28:00) And then you get into all of this as well. So it is a really interesting and scary effect of all of this, I think, as a next consequence. Marc Winter (28:10) Totally, you know, it's such a rich and deep thing. Do you think like, and it's actually, interesting to hear you, it seems to me like there's similar patterns happening in Austria, least Europe, than as in the States. Would you agree with that? Paul Fattinger (28:26) I wouldn't know, as I said before, but I did my research too. I asked, and because I think if I remember correctly, there was a big UK study and then there's also a similar US thing that he's been quoting off. I think on the education part, it's not as bad in let's say, the Germany, Austria, Switzerland region. On the rest of the things is pretty similar. So the whole social isolation relationships is very similar. Marc Winter (28:30) Hahaha Paul Fattinger (28:56) I think it's in the US, he said one in seven young men have no friends. In Germany, Austria, it's 15 to 20%. So very similar, young men are lonely. One in five, no close friends. So it kind of seems like not as bad, but having exactly the same pattern and the same trend. And I think the trend is the problem here too, It's also not an absolute thing. In a sense, it's just... Marc Winter (29:08) Mm. Hmm. Paul Fattinger (29:24) a trend that is getting worse. I think that we need to have a look at. what before we there's one thing I would have liked to ask before we kind of get what does that mean for us is what I find very interesting is the reaction. This type of conversation, say, sparks. Marc Winter (29:45) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (29:47) And, I said, it's because on that very day that I listened to this podcast in May, I was on my way to friends and it was kind of a house party with kids, four couples kind of situation, standing around in the kitchen on a Sunday afternoon, having a glass of wine or something. And I, and I brought this topic up because I think I had listened to it in the car on the way over there. And then, and all of a sudden I got a really harsh reaction from, you know, mainly, you know, two women in the room kind of saying like, you know, what the fuck are we all of a sudden talking about man's problems? You guys are still the privileged kind of group, shut the fuck up. So this is not important. And then was a very interesting conversation coming out of this around, are we even allowed to speak about this? Marc Winter (30:19) I know, I know, I know, I know. I so I think that time has passed. I agree a little bit. We're in bit of a code red. And I'm not just saying this because in the Trump era, because I think the Trump era, at least in the US, is like, hey, guess what happens if you don't address? I know I'm getting into politics now, but if you don't address some socioeconomic issues, yeah, yeah, guess what happens? There are real implications on your life, even though, because guess what? There's still 50 % of the population, roughly. Paul Fattinger (30:54) certain issues and behaviors, yeah. Marc Winter (31:04) if a segment of this huge segment and for now in part of structures of power and if they're hurting and they'll keep that power by the way and if they're hurting ⁓ significantly the implications on the rest of human beings will be strong and know candidly from all the they're already being felt from all the mass shootings and all the other you know insane god knows what is happening you know all across the country so I mean I do think it needs to be address, but I had the same reaction or I got the same reaction from others who were like, really? Why are you guys doing that now? Like that's such a privileged, it's a privileged conversation to talk about white men, you know, and how they're suffering. Paul Fattinger (31:46) Yeah. And I had this and I had also the kind of thing, it was a reaction to our podcast about, as you said, like, is it okay to talk about, you know, middle-aged white man's problems right now? Shouldn't you also kind of include the female perspective to which I said, yes, and actually no, because there is too little of that kind of conversation. And just because you focus on one thing doesn't mean that the other thing is not important. And think ⁓ a lot is about this. A lot is about this, the fear of the spotlight being taken away ⁓ from a certain issue, which I think has some merit because I think as humanity, don't manage many things in parallel so well up to the point that all of a sudden Bill Gates has to say environmentalism is not as important as the vaccination of millions of kids in a sense. I mean, just to show you the, you know, and ⁓ Marc Winter (32:16) Exactly. Well said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right, exactly. Paul Fattinger (32:46) which you say in this way, but you know what I mean, right? Kind of people are like, you know, we have one enemy, we have one problem, you know, kind of way of thinking. in that scenario, I understand how you can be afraid to take the spotlight away of, you know, the whole female empowerment issue, which might or might not be, I don't know, in the grand scheme of things, the bigger problem, but it doesn't matter. They're both problems and they both need addressing and they both need talking about. And I think this can happen in parallel. It needs to be happening in parallel. Marc Winter (33:16) Yeah, look, my favorite phrase is two things could be true at once. Paul Fattinger (33:20) Yeah, no, exactly. They're both true. So that I found really interesting in all this conversation. ⁓ Marc Winter (33:27) Well, you know, and it's funny, like the just to emphasize the point I was looking at the New Yorker on they wrote up about Galloway's book and the headline is very cheeky, you know, what did men do to deserve this? You know, written by female and Paul Fattinger (33:42) Yeah, and I think one part of it is the fact that men like us speak about it, who are not really, you know, not really in the middle of this is a problem. But it's as much as a problem that, you know, maybe a very privileged white woman is talking about, you know, all the problems that, you know, a few men never have had. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have said this, but you know what I mean. Yeah, it's kind of like. Marc Winter (33:47) Hmm. Yeah, totally. Well, so like I did a little bit of sorting through both like the themes of the book, you know, which none of it just like rocket science for, you know, for us and for our listeners. Sorry pressure to perform that relationships are super important You know need more than competence anger is often a mask and the permission to be more than one thing I mean, this is like kind of Stuff we talk about a model. I think hopefully but one thing is I was doing a bit of a synthesis here At least in my mind, you know, one of my favorite exercises to do is is like magic the magic wand one, you know if I had to like gift a generation one thing or fix solve one thing, get it with a magic wand, what would it be? And the answer I have, at least that bubbles the surface for me is, it would be amazing if vulnerability was cherished as much as strength in modern. And what I mean by vulnerability is not necessarily just a clarity that we're shedding tears and we're crying and hugging out, that's a different thing, but permission to not know a thing, permission to talk about failure, talk about struggles and not keeping inside and normalizing that as a thing. Paul Fattinger (35:23) Hmm. Hmm. Amen. Yes. Absolutely. Marc Winter (35:33) And that way you can learn from one another and build off one another. And that to me feels like such an obvious place to start. Paul Fattinger (35:36) Yes. Yes. But you know, it now reminds me of something that we just missed out in our root cause analysis. mean, when I remember correctly, one of the root causes also that the role and the model and what a man should be, I think has undergone a lot of change. I think for us, and I think in my world and I think also in yours, my father, Marc Winter (35:49) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (36:12) think as yours was the provider. It was very clear. Up to the point that what was already rare, luckily in my generation, that my mom, it was a full stay at home mom. And it was a very clear role. And I wouldn't say role models aren't so positive. There was a very clear role definition of what a man is. And it was clear. And I think in later years that became more unclear. Marc Winter (36:15) Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (36:37) And I think there might've even been years where vulnerability was the thing and it was kind of the other extreme and you needed to be very in touch with, and all of a sudden that male version came out that was very soft and was very in touch with their feeling and with their female side. Maybe I would argue even too much. And I think out in all of this, opening up the possibilities of what a man could be came also disorientation of a generation. that then all of a sudden have so many more different forms of things to choose from, know, from an Andrew Tate, to, you know, quote him again, to maybe some super softy, you know, with a podcast and a beard, you know, just to stereotype something, you know, from Berlin or I don't know, from Copenhagen, you know, running around, you know, petting, you know, baby kangaroos. I don't know what the fuck, you know, just to make some, to draw the other side. Marc Winter (37:18) Yeah. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (37:34) And I think that's where it comes in that, yes, I agree, it's vulnerability, but I think it's kind of, it's one of the things because that's something we haven't been taught. But I think men are also strong and, and, know, but this is, we came out into this world, you know, and also physically strong, you know, out there to build something. And I think most of us want to do this. And I think it's okay to acknowledge this, but not with your ego. Marc Winter (37:41) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (37:59) Right. But being, kind of reflected enough to understand what is my ego driving myself and what is my own true purpose. And I think, and I think, you know, vulnerabilities is, is, is a pathway to understand what your true purpose is on this planet that is not driven by others expectations or by the things that you have, you know, learned and seen maybe wrongly. So, so I think, yes, that's beautiful. They said, so I think in all of this and that's. Marc Winter (38:07) Yeah. Yeah. It's an invitation to know yourself. Paul Fattinger (38:28) why I love this conversation and I hope that it shapes and inspires maybe because I think there's a middle way of how to be a man and we don't know. mean, what the fuck do we know? But I think it is in the middle. It can be strong, it can be stupid, it can be fun, can be emotional, but it should also be reflected and caring and loving and giving direction and focus and clarity. And so there's so many things I think that a modern man can do or should do. And it's, guess, somewhere in the middle of those extremes we all see. that's kind of the interesting one and the one that also inspires our sons and what they're going to be and kind of bringing it back to this one, which is kind of the most important thing. Marc Winter (39:17) Yeah, no, that's right. Totally. You know, it's funny, I agree with 100 % of everything you said. you know, one thing, at least reading the reviews, I haven't read the book, but just because he's everywhere, I feel like I've read the book. You know, he talks about the notion of shared vision. And you know, in the States, we have this idea of the greatest generation. They're the guys who fought in World War II, who helped build a lot of the buildings and infrastructure, you know, in... After the Great Depression, you the Empire State building this kind of a collectiveness, collective purpose, that kind of notion here. And, you know, the selflessness, I guess, as these soldiers put them into war. This is what Galloway romanticizes in a way of like, this was manhood. You this is what was lost, you know, plus the fighting, but more of the collective sense of purpose were coming together either around to fight fascism or to build something, you know, kind of new. And while I agree that shows the power of a collective kind of coming together, what to me feels like it's in deep need of modernization around the terms that you just, the themes that you just talked about. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (40:40) But it also gives us one, think important one is that this says that being there as a father, no matter how you are, and now I'm obviously taking out extreme versions of violence and bad behavior, is better than not being there. So, you Marc Winter (40:50) Hmm. Paul Fattinger (41:03) Even being a role model of your classic baby boomer generation that mom, sisters, I go to work, I make the rules, but I'm there, I'm clear, I'm giving rules and things and guidelines is better than not being there. And that's what it, you know, I think that's what it actually says, because that's a lot of what young men growing up need. They need, I know my 11 year old boy right now is acting up against me all the time. Marc Winter (41:03) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (41:32) is the young lion who goes against the big lion. It is that I did the same thing. Who can't wait to be taller than me, to be stronger than me, to know that he can hit me harder. We've all been there. We know as men how this works. And we also know as men that our ultimate... I know with my mom when it escalated, her last thing was, listen, I'm going to talk to your father when he's home. Marc Winter (41:37) Of Father, I'm talk to your father. Paul Fattinger (42:02) And man, fuck me, I knew I was in trouble. And I'm sorry, but this is the way it goes. And it's not out of disrespect to their mother, but it is how I think nature wired us to be out there in the jungle and be the strongest and the fittest and survive. And I know this sounds very animalistic now, but I believe that actually. Marc Winter (42:23) ⁓ No, no, no, but actually hearing you talk like I know I Think I believe it too. haven't really actually entertained that but you know, there's no clever line or thing I would say that would out Transcend the fear of getting whacked by my dad There's like there's not like to put it to put it lightly, you know ⁓ Paul Fattinger (42:40) Should it be like this? I don't know, but I think it kind of for young boys, it is like this and they need this. And I can tell you my son and my oldest son actually had a male elementary school teacher for four years. And that was a blessing because, this guy actually, I think he, and he actually went by the percy in school, which doesn't happen nowadays anymore. Right. He was Mr. XYZ and not Marc Winter (42:59) Mmm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (43:10) whatever first name. He was a figure of authority and he was not some old dude. He was a cool dude in a leather jacket and a Harley in his thirties. ⁓ but he, know, the boys and Philippe Pocille, loves this guy because he was clear giving rules, da da da, ba-bam, goodbye. Marc Winter (43:27) That might be another investment. It's actually, it's actually, that's an interesting idea that really resonates. You know, I think one of the, keep, I keep telling a lot of people this. So one of the most formative years of anyone's education is high school, you know? And ⁓ I went to an all boys Catholic school. Don't laugh. It's not going to go where you think it's going. But, but ⁓ there was something about, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (43:49) Yeah. Marc Winter (43:54) Most of the teachers were men. I felt sorry for the women there. Obviously a bunch of horny guys, know 13 14 whatever cracking inappropriate jokes. I don't know how many The art of drawing penises could have been you know a class, you know You know back of the day that's kind of how it was, you know um but because what what the school did is that yes, you were taught by some priests and some some some you know other monks, but they hired Paul Fattinger (44:06) Hahaha! Marc Winter (44:21) young guys right out of university from really good universities like hey come teach history for a year this for you and you just kind of like saw like oh here's a seasoned younger dude who's teaching me about you know the french revolution or so and i i thought it was really smart informative they weren't decks they were curious people they saw the value of the education and now you're making me think actually you know The world needs more of my privileged education. Can we give that? But it's more about the male. It's more about the men who are teaching others. Paul Fattinger (44:52) No, think, yes, I think that's where it comes down to. And to me, to me, I've kind of also, I I haven't read the book and I kind of re-remembered all of the things that were there. And so, yes, the role models changed in a way, but they changed in the fact that they were not as clear anymore and clearly less present. And I mean, that's also the stats kind of say this. ⁓ Plus the fact that, you know, they struggle more at school, know, education and jobs that, you know, Marc Winter (45:07) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (45:21) The economic environment is harder, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we are in this pickle at the moment. And I think it does need a redefinition of all of this. And that's why it's good talking about it. And it doesn't take the limelight away of any of the other myriad of problems that we have on this planet, unfortunately. Marc Winter (45:40) Yeah, yeah, and actually, you know, as we always kind of find our way into this topic, ⁓ I think maybe the headline I'm walking away from is like, I'm really glad it's in the air. And that we're talking about it now, you know, like, sometimes I feel like, ⁓ you know, it's just a theme, but it's actually, you know, It's even better if it becomes a movement just to address anything. Versus a flash in the pan, no versus a flash in the pan topic. First I was thinking, let's just bring up what he says and talk about him. But actually it's more about is this thing worthy of elevating to ⁓ more of a national kind of movement? And I think it is. Paul Fattinger (46:06) Yeah, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Dude, it totally is. And I think everyone that I always try to explain this to and it's like, listen, I mean, as you just said before, think if, you know, a lot of the, unfortunately, right, the world is still ruled by, you know, ⁓ very privileged white men who clearly have a fucking problem. So, mean, there's no question. So I think the world would be much better if they had had something different, like just a little bit would be a great improvement to wherever we are. Marc Winter (46:37) Yeah, very queerly and presently. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (46:54) this planet. I think that's where actually that closes the argument usually in two seconds because no one can argue they would be better if not some 60 or 80 plus year olds would kind of act out on their childhood trauma on the world stage being you know the heads of the biggest superpowers. That kind of really is a problem. So I think if this contributes to making better leaders for the future, who by the way could also be female and would be great. Marc Winter (46:58) does. Paul Fattinger (47:22) That would help. think that's one thing. For sure. Marc Winter (47:25) You know, there's this line, and we're closing, but I'll leave with this provocation. You know, I think it's on this movie, Almost Famous, which I love, but it's a quip. He's like, you know how it goes like this, like all great artists really about getting the girl, you know, at the heart of it. Like that little thing that's lost. And what was what's all great leadership really about? Especially male. I don't know. Makes me think about that. Maybe. Paul Fattinger (47:42) Yeah, it's similar. maybe similar. It's similar and what my kind of the one I'm taking away that I'm still in true. Marc Winter (47:54) or transcending your father. Paul Fattinger (47:56) Exactly. Or father figure or whatever. It could be that. what my big one that I want to take away as a future topic is this question about why can we not talk about one thing without having to include something else? Why can things not exist in parallel? Why can we not do realities? ⁓ That's super intriguing because it's the same in relationships in the end, if you think of Marc Winter (47:57) Could be that, could be that, yeah. dualities. I agree. Paul Fattinger (48:24) I can talk about my shit. That doesn't mean that your shit isn't important, but we don't figure out each of other shit. We are not going to be together. That's the simple rule of any couple of therapy, right? And you can't lean on it, you know? So, and it's the same about this. It's like both things are okay. Both needs airtime. Chill the fuck out. Marc Winter (48:33) That's right. Totally. Love it. Well done. That was fun. Paul Fattinger (48:47) Amazing man. ⁓ Our terminator I needed almost seemed mundane now. ⁓ they really does. But yeah. Well, I go first. Jesus. Thank you. Thank you for throwing me into this. I mean, listen, I mean talking about mundane things and shifting from existential problems to champagne problems in a heartbeat. Yours truly, Paul Fatinger. I love skiing man. It's my terminator of the week. Marc Winter (48:53) Yeah, it really does. imagine you go first for your... Paul Fattinger (49:17) It's beautiful. It's amazing. And it's insane. I have, did you, did I send you this Instagram reels that are going around with, know, with this awesome, it has this nice song and it has, you know, kids skiing, you know, it shows kids skiing. It's like, the reason I teach my kids how to ski is so that they will never have enough money for drugs. Marc Winter (49:40) Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (49:44) Which is 100 % true. So that's my that's my my terminal of the week is lovely. I love it. It's the best. Marc Winter (49:46) Stoey. Nice. Do you have an idiot? Because mine are go hand in hand, so... Paul Fattinger (49:56) My edit of the week is also kind of hand hand. mean, it's really... I hate to bash it, but our public train service is not as bad as Germany's, but... And they brought me from A B B to A almost in time and with no... But it's not great, man. I mean, there's... And we do actually have a private company that runs on the same line where everything's from reserving a seat to booking your ticket to checking in on a train works so much more easily. And it's just a fucking app and I can't see how you can't get that done. You know, as the biggest public provider of training services. That's a joke. You need to do better. I'm sorry. Marc Winter (50:35) Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, solve it, idiots. OK, so I have ⁓ two. I'm to do mine in reverse order and they're going to be connected to a Friday night. So my wife and I went out for a date night on Friday and we did it in two parts. First, we're like, we're going to go to this kind of northern Izakaya and then two, we're to go try to sneak into this bar and get dessert. Number one, go to this place called Dr. Clark's. Paul Fattinger (50:40) Here you go. Marc Winter (51:05) And ⁓ so imagine it's like a little funky karaoke bar. Actually, I think I took you there once and you're like, what a cool bar. Yeah. No, no, you thought it was great. You were, but I was, I was very drunk. You're like, I've never seen Mark so drunk. Remember that night you picked me up at the holiday party. Paul Fattinger (51:11) And I probably hated it because it was Sake. Okay. yes, I do. Yeah, that was fun. ⁓ Marc Winter (51:19) Yeah, then we went there. I was laughing. Okay, we went to that place We ordered a bunch of stuff first starting at the bar, etc And the service was terrible like so bad that they but they left off. I'm not kidding off the bill ⁓ a whole bottle of sake ⁓ two martinis four beers and a dish we like we added up was like a hundred bucks gone and there was such a mess and so they're kind of idiots in a way and so the question is moral question would you flag them and say Hey guys, you have this stuff off the bill. Nah. Okay. In principle, would you? If the service is bad. Paul Fattinger (51:52) No. It depends. There is no impressive... No, no, if it as you described, I would be like... Marc Winter (52:04) Yeah idiots I Mean they were serving their first thing wrong dishes like literally they're like ⁓ did you not order the sizzling lamb heads? You know it was like crazy. We're like no, but ⁓ The but walked out obviously after I just listed what they what would they did pay for ⁓ There were some we actually walked out. Yeah, exactly walked out then to this Paul Fattinger (52:05) It's consequence of your doing, you know. ⁓ no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that alone would have been enough and I'm sure you paid also for some things. Yeah Marc Winter (52:32) Fabulous. I have to take you there. I think actually it's my favorite restaurant in my neighborhood area called Bridges. They just got a Michelin star. But really casual, not fussy. Like New York one star Michelin, which is a different than I think what you guys have. But you know, we walked in and I was chatting up the maitre d' to grab a table at the bar. No, no, no, we didn't go there. No, no, no, that was a Corima. Another one. Yeah. And I was like... Paul Fattinger (52:36) Really? Didn't we go there? Wasn't it next to the hotel I stayed? Marc Winter (53:02) This is the kind of vibe I was like hey, how's it going? You got a spot for us? She's like, okay good good. Yeah, we just got our star like two weeks ago We're kind of happy. I was like drunk like high five and we're like high fiving each other and we got more drinks And I was like that's the kind of restaurant you just want to Stroll into yeah, you just want to stroll into so bridges Terminator of the week Paul Fattinger (53:13) ⁓ that's amazing. You just want to go too? Absolutely man. I need to plan my next trip. Clearly. But you should come for skiing. Exactly, exactly. come. Yeah, yeah. Super fun. Thank you. Have a great rest of the day. See ya. Ciao. Marc Winter (53:25) Yeah, okay. Yes, you do. Yeah, but but I'm to Lesh first. That's exactly right. We're doing we're doing one from the slopes. All right, my friend. That was fun. Cheers. You too. Bye.