Let Go of Your Dreams | Ep 55

Marc (00:00) Welcome to Guys Like Us, Season Two. If you're new to this podcast, this is the podcast about the things that you start thinking about when you are, well, as you know, in your prime. Midlife, full of joy, full of dreams, and you're gonna hear stories about life, family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shape us and move us. In today's episode, we're gonna talk about the art of letting go. I'm your host, Mark Winter, a conceived artist, entrepreneur, full of dreams, a husband and father of two. Based in New York, but today am sitting in an amazing farmland of Wisconsin. And I'm joined by Paul Fottinger. Hey Paul, how are ya? Paul (00:44) I am great, thank you. Joining you finally again from Vienna after weeks of absence from the podcast and from Vienna. I'm an entrepreneur, a father of three, a guy that has done many things that he needs to let go of. and has let go of many things that I have dreamt of before. So this is gonna be a very interesting conversation, Mark. I'm looking forward to it. Marc (01:09) Me too. And you know, the topic of today, you know, as you were all alluding to is letting go. And the reason why we thought we would choose this one in particular as we're entering into our fresh season too, is that it's a time to make choices about life, about our dreams, about where we imagine things coming to be, and we prepared a great episode for you guys. Hey man, it feels so good to be back. Paul (01:38) It feels amazing to see you again. It's been almost three weeks since our last recording. So it's good to see you, man. Marc (01:45) God, it's it's like I have to work my conversation muscles again, you know? Yeah, that's true. Paul (01:49) I don't think that's true. So how was your summer? Describe your summer in a terminator and an idiot. Marc (01:56) Okay. it's so easy to do. the Terminator, I think I'm gonna give it to me because am I yeah, you know why? What I Paul (02:04) what a humble start into the next in into season two of Guys Like Us. Marc (02:10) Well, you know what it is? If you can execute as many one day like family trips like to to the to the Hamptons and back for for the weekend in New York with two kids, two young kids, and not and still have your hair. I'm gonna give it to me and and Vera that we did a really good job, you know, coordinating that. So that feels really good. And it that's been sort of the vibe of the summer too. It's like really great bits of of pleasure and then, you know, some Paul (02:36) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (02:38) some high level SWAT team organizational tactics to get stuff done. Yeah. Paul (02:44) Okay and what's the flip side of that summary? What's the idiot? I know that what's gonna Marc (02:49) No, no, no, no, no. There's gonna be different one. do you know that I was got into an accident, funny enough. someone rear-ended me because they were texting. I had two kids sleeping in the back. So like that's the first kind of thing. Paul (03:02) Fuck me, yeah. Yeah. Marc (03:03) So you realize and they were still sleeping afterwards. And thank God I was in this SUV, but this kid, Porky, was in this Ultima. I mean, i this Nissan Ultima, the front exploded with the airbag. This kid came out a little bit like woozy, held his phone out, etc. Paul (03:17) Whoa. Marc (03:19) And I was just like I just asked him, I like, Were you on your phone? Right? He said, and he just like kinda did the half busted sort of face, you know, because I like, You had two kids Paul (03:28) yeah. Marc (03:28) in here. Anyway, don't text and drive. Don't text and drive. It's a good reminder. Paul (03:28) that is an idiot, yeah, isn't it? I think it's great that you turn it around, right? I mean, we ended this year with, you know, being giving someone else the terminate and being humble and telling what idiotic thing we did, but you just unhumbly turn it around. This is season two of guys like us where we're not humble anymore. We're we we we are going to Marc (03:43) I know, I'm I'm I'm cla we should we should claim our greatness. Yeah. Paul (03:48) shelf the humbleness if it was ever here. Marc (03:50) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (03:50) All right. I I I was actually humble. That's my idiot of the week and it's very or the summer. Is I this is the last week of vacations here in Austria. All the kids Marc (04:01) Mm. Paul (04:01) are in camp. Luckily, my older kids go by themselves. Unluckily, both of them don't have a phone anymore because they somehow lost it somewhere, so they are completely unsupervised into the wild. Marc (04:11) Ha ha ha. Paul (04:13) And I guess my terminator is I mean I did lots of holidays and I wanna do a terminator. I Marc (04:18) Go for it. Paul (04:21) mean I can't do it for myself, but I went actually helped our good friends of Landgut Schöne Erde yesterday, where we were and recorded a great podcast, guys, and I helped them. Marc (04:29) really? Yeah. Paul (04:31) I helped them pick the grapes, which is a bitch of a job. It really is. And it was hot and and they Marc (04:36) Dude, this is the worst thing ever. Yeah. Paul (04:37) do everything by hand, huh? Everything by hand, as we learned in our episode. I know I can't tell you what number, 40 something. Marc (04:41) Yeah, I remember. No. Paul (04:44) and and and I also drink, and this is a great segue, a beautiful wine from exactly where we sat, dear Mark. actually the the the top one from there is here, and it's beautiful. It's Gruna Vettlin. Marc (04:58) It's such a great wine. I Paul (04:59) Ried Steiger Himmelreich Rosatz, absolut beautiful. And these guys and a lot of farmers who have fought with a lot of drought and and and you know hot crazy weather in Austria that fought through the summer and worked their asses off. That's the terminators. And especially still pumping out wine like this. Yeah. So what are you having? Marc (05:14) Good, good for you. Yeah, I'm jealous. Bring me some bottle. Well, you know what? I'm actually having coffee from this beautiful mug because I am in a very special place today. I I took an early flight, and it's gonna relate to our topic, to Minneapolis, Minnesota. And drove an hour and a half from there deep into the farmlands of Wisconsin. for a session around my family's storytelling project called The Great Reflection, where we're gonna hang it over. Paul (05:43) Amazing. Marc (05:44) So I I'm nursing coffee right now, but Paul (05:47) Here we go. It it is early enough to nurse coffee, I give you that. Marc (05:50) But my gu but my guest, I'll tell you one thing, is already plotting perfect Manhattans. So I mean he makes his own bitters, which is an amazing thing. We picked up the yeah. I didn't know you could do that with sour church. Paul (05:58) Ooh. You gotta send some photos over. Marc (06:02) I will actually. It's gonna be good. Paul (06:04) Here we go. Yeah, I mean let's let's jump into that topic, right? I mean, we said before the art of letting go. What does that mean? How did that come around? I can tell you one thing also. I've had a great summer. I had lots of fun evenings, lots of, you know, wines and barbecues and dinners and good conversations, but also to be honest, a bit running away from things. that Marc (06:27) Mm. Paul (06:28) you know how it is sometimes when you know exactly if you sit still for a moment, something's gonna nag. And and and I had one of those summers where I brilliantly, you know, distracted myself from that nagging feeling and whatever lies below. I can do this for years too. I mean it's just that I'm turning you Marc (06:41) You're you're you're you're good at that. I could say it. Yeah. Paul (06:46) know, I'm getting older, so my body can't take the abuse anymore. Marc (06:50) Yeah. Paul (06:51) that I also smoked again. I can tell you also this, I quit again a week ago. I mean, it's been I'm I'm going through these cycles. They go quicker now. Yeah. Marc (06:57) hold on, hold on, hold on. Have you have you have you hold on to quitting or no? Or have you spicked back up? Paul (07:03) No, no, I'm qu I'm still good. It's been a week. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. I told you I Marc (07:06) It's still good. Congratulations. Okay. Yeah. Paul (07:09) do I'm good at this. I've done this many times. Marc (07:11) Maybe the sixth time is the charm, you know? Paul (07:16) Anyways, so we talked about this also because you already kind of alluded to it. about letting go. Because Marc (07:23) Mm. Paul (07:24) many people tell you, right? I mean, you need to let go of X, let go of Y, and then you are better. So, my first question to lead into this to you would be what does this whole phrase, you know, letting go mean to you? Or when I say this. What's the first thing that comes to your mind? Marc (07:47) I think you are burdened by something in some way, in many ways. When you're letting when you need to let go, that means you are carrying weight on your shoulders that you need to unshackle, untether, unburden yourself of either a behavior or an idea or a burden or a a grudge, any of those things. So super high level, it's and it has a deep emotional connection. Paul (08:16) Is there something that you are currently letting go of and that is a weight on your shoulders? Marc (08:23) Well, and it also has some positive, I think, things. It can also let go of control. And so funny enough, it's a it's a good segue, I think, as I alluded to to today. It's like, you know, I'm actually here with my collaborator, Chris Everett. You know, we had done some work on co-creating the Great Reflection. And part of what I'm here to do, I think, is also just let go of being the the kind of mastermind of it. someone who can take it further in what it means to be. And the journey of that, I have to tell you, to to arrive at that is is a lot of things because this is a something that was really passionate to me, you know, really dear to me. And I realized Paul (09:04) Mm. Marc (09:05) pretty quickly at some point after a year of trying to get things off the ground and fits and starts, I said this needs a dedicated individual and a heart to carry it forward. And so That was a a process a bit of grieving a a little bit and a a process of unburdening yourself a little bit and then and then falling in love with what the new thing could be. Paul (09:28) But does it feel lighter because you described it as a weight before? Marc (09:32) Yeah, totally. I I think the weight was not delivering on its promise. Or not having the energy or the time to deliver on its promise. Something I really believed in. Paul (09:42) Mm. Mm-hmm. Is Marc (09:45) Yeah. Paul (09:45) that something, you know, letting go that you have seen a lot? Or is that s is that something that you tell people often, you know, let go? Something is that something you do or is that s something new? Marc (09:56) my god. Yeah, I do. Well I do because I think you see, you know, the the benefit I think of of of maybe being empathetic or just curious about that stuff, not to champion myself too much, but like you can see like very often what holds people back or ideas of what they should be, what they aren't, you know, things like that. what about you? Paul (10:19) I think to me that's a recent discovery, this whole letting go business, right? And I I hear it I hear Marc (10:23) Ha ha ha. Paul (10:24) it a lot and and jokingly I I and jokingly I also say that's kind of you know the the the therapy jargon one one, you know, you have to let go of this. and Marc (10:37) Mm. Paul (10:38) what does that actually mean? And and I think we've discussed it in the episode with your cousin, remember, Jasmine. And when we said, you know, what's the you know, w where is the line between letting go and giving up? I f I find that's an interesting one. And and to me that I grew up in a in a world where my parents would say, you know, the only is you say in German aufgeben, right, is to give up. But they say the Marc (11:09) Mm, mm hmm. Paul (11:10) only thing you give up, because it's the same word you use, is a letter. So you Marc (11:15) Huh. Paul (11:16) you off you y you you know so you also give a a a a letter to the post is the same verb you use for giving up. So you're giving up a letter to the post. So that there's a saying that says, you know, the only thing you do with you know, you use that verb for is a letter, not anything else. You know, that's kind of the attitude and the energy, you know, bit where the terminator comes from. You know, there's no such thing, you know. Not giving Marc (11:40) Not not giving up. Exactly. Yeah. Paul (11:43) up. So so the the the The idea of letting go is completely completely counter it completely foreign to me. I do understand though, yeah. Go ahead. Marc (11:50) Foreign to you. So so let's stick into that. so so like, you know, very often the I the idea is like even though you know something isn't serving you, you still stick with it, right? Like like in let's call let's call it before therapy, Paul. I like that, you know. B B T Paul. Paul (12:18) That's good. That's a good one. That's I like this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. PT. Yeah. Marc (12:19) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so tell me tell me about that. Like like does it you d you have many, many things in your life that weren't serving you, you know, whether it's emotions, relationships, you know, roles, and there there are a lot of reasons why you hold on, but I mean w were you able to understand that they weren't serving you or did you need just to step back first? Paul (12:47) no, I did not understand. I did not understand that there's any other concept than I think, you know, this letting go concept. But if you go back and you don't just focus on one thing you let go of. And I think there's and let's maybe come back to that later because I think there's different elements of this. But if you think Marc (13:04) Mm. Paul (13:04) of the whole philosophy, that is just a little bit the opposite of control, and that's what I always thought, right? And and whereas you learn And and you still read so much you have to have goals and you have to work hard to achieve them and so on and so on, right? So so that's kind of nothing of that is letting go. And if you if you if you don't understand letting go as letting go of you know one project, but letting go of control over what on how your life might turn out professionally Marc (13:34) That's right. Paul (13:36) or in in your private life, which does not mean to be complacent and lean back and say, you know, whatever the fuck. It still means to work hard, to do your best, to to show up as the you know, your best version, etc. PP. But what happens, who knows? And d these are so contrary, I think, that I think it's very hard to when you are in one, to understand the other or to even realize there Marc (14:01) Yeah. Paul (14:01) is another. You know what I mean? I think they're so opposite of each other that I find that very hard. So no, I didn't. I had to completely really experienced things that I needed to let go of because they were hurting me, that I finally Marc (14:14) Mm. Paul (14:14) understood that this is also a way to go. Marc (14:18) Okay, well, well done. Now, let me one other thing I want to ask you, because I think what's really hard about it, at least particularly for me, is that I need to have the next thing in place to know what I'm moving on to. And this is where my my sort of flaws, I think in a way, you know. Even if it like or I I need to know like, you know, even with this project, like I need to know who where whose hands will have it, you know, so we can go forward. Or like when if it's what will I come up be what what what will I be or come out on the other side, you know? Paul (14:58) I mean for sure the most difficult one is to completely surrender, right? I mean and to give you a picture Marc (15:03) Yeah. Paul (15:03) and go out completely naked into the world and say, you know, whatever, you know, just like give it to me, you know? here we go. Marc (15:11) I quit. Paul (15:13) No, but funny enough, there is actually there is some research because I was curious if there is, you know, any studies on on that. And there is actually and and it's twofold. it's quite recent actually, that they found out that To let go of something actually really lowers your cortisol level and your stress, right? Because you're not stressing about this thing anymore that you actually can't control and you're trying to achieve it. But the happiness, as much as you can measure it, actually only increases with the next thing you then focus on, and that is more achievable. Marc (15:47) Yeah. Paul (15:48) So it's a bit a bit of a catch 22, if you ask me. I do understand the stress factor, but what I under when I thought about this, what I found interesting is. To me there are two things. One is to let go of things in the past and you know that nag on you and and that hurt you maybe or mistakes as you've Marc (16:07) Yeah. Paul (16:07) made or things that others where you feel that you were treated wrongly, right? And to let go of those because they take energy. That's one thing. That's kind of to to Marc (16:17) Mm, mm. Paul (16:18) to let go of the past if you want. Things you can't change anymore, who things that are not gonna be like this anymore. And I find that hard. But I almost find that easier and I wonder what you think than th letting go of dreams, of future states, of ideal states that you would like to achieve. Marc (16:41) Okay, okay. So I would love to unpack this with you. So letting go of the past, like I think I'm really good at this. Like I I don't like ruminating. I I I went like when someone, you know, I've had i it by sharp contrast, like my brother Like constantly going back, rethinking, reliving. And you know, to me, I feel like, gosh, like why why live there? Like r reinvent or or move forward and I can I can make it really real, like, you know, for personal stuff. I remember like, my brother and I were once wronged or or or had an argument with a friend, you know? And my brother like was All I would do was think, get trapped by that, right? How angry that made him and wrong to felt, right? In me, I felt sorry that I had that emotion. and said, you know, why do I want to live like this? I don't want to think about this anymore. So I'm either gonna fix it, right? Or just move on. And I ended up fixing it, and was so much better because I just decided to make that choice. And you know, I'll take that by contrast, and maybe this is where you and I may be similar, is letting go of a dream. For me is the hardest thing. A dream that I really am passionate and loving love for. So like I still believe there will be chapters of of dreams that I had and I was a teenager that I'll still realize. Weirdly. Like I Paul (18:10) Mm. Marc (18:11) can never let go of that. I'm like, God, there's still time. I'm just doing this now. What about you? Paul (18:16) Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't think I'm as good as you as in letting go of the past. I think I learned because I made mistakes in my in my life that really hurt myself and especially other people that I needed to let go of, otherwise they would have dragged me down too much. So to me, Marc (18:33) Yeah. Paul (18:34) that's why I I I had to learn this lesson in a very hard way. And I and it's very simple then because it goes to a point of of a little bit of being or not being. You know, if if you're gonna keep dragging this shit with you, you're gonna be miserable for the rest of your life. So let's not do it. And that's okay. Marc (18:51) Well well there's something interesting about that before you go to the another Paul (18:55) Mm. Marc (18:55) thing, because I think like I gave an example of forgiving a friend, right? I think that's an example in some parts of forgiving yourself, right, for some of the mistakes you made. Is that right? Or letting go letting go of yourself. Or Paul (19:06) No, absolutely. mean that's what you say about that's what you say, I mean, about forgiveness, right? At the end of the day, it's just energy you trap, and and not anybody else's, because if someone wrongs you and I've also been wronged, you know. I've also been wronged, you know. And I st Marc (19:17) super interesting. You're good at this. Yeah. Of course, of course. Paul (19:22) I still listen, I mean I'm really l trying to let go of a few things that happened to me in my life, but Marc (19:27) Ha ha. Paul (19:28) but I still really wanna fuck up some people sometimes, you know? Yeah. So Marc (19:31) Yeah, I'm sure you do. Paul (19:36) So there is there is there is this element, yeah. Yeah, but it's bad. I'm trying Marc (19:37) I I do know what fuels you. I do know what fuels you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Paul (19:42) to let go of this because in the end it's really just energy you burn. It doesn't do anything to the other, you know. It's just is that shit that you burn. To me, what's harder is letting go of an idea of how life would have been. And I can tell you a very simple one. To me, I always had an idea that I'm gonna have a you know a wife and kids and a house, and and it's basically how I grew up. And that's not happening Marc (20:06) Mm-hmm. Paul (20:07) anymore. I mean that's I think that's official, you know, in in year six after my divorce. And I think we've done a really good job in in how we, you know, arrange ourselves to get the best parts out of both worlds, you know, if you want divorce world and and and and a family world. But it's not exactly the way I always pictured it, which you have to ask yourself, why the fuck did you picture it this way? And is that the best Marc (20:29) Okay. Paul (20:29) way anyways? But to To come Marc (20:31) Yeah. Paul (20:32) to terms with that to me for example is way more difficult than letting go of trying to fuck up someone. Marc (20:40) Great. that resonates with me. I think though we're missing something. Like there's some challenging stuff. And I want to bring another element to this conversation, which is the joy of letting Paul (20:50) Come in. Marc (20:50) go. Because sometimes there's a lot of joy of liberating yourself from ideas. So for example, yes. I Mark still has very queer dreams of putting, you know, some of his writing out on the big screen. Like like I'm sure that's gonna happen at some point. I just have to finish it. But like I'm very liberated by the idea. I once wanted to run a marathon. I'm like, I'm never gonna do it. Don't care. Like like it's just it's and it makes me feel it makes me feel amazing. You know, and that and and there I was wondering, like, you know, I I was starting to actually made a list of this. I was like, what are things that Like I once wanted that actually don't don't matter to me anymore, that coveted, right? They just need to let go of that dream. It's like it's you know. Paul (21:38) Yeah, but they are bullshit things to want. A marathon. I mean pfft, who gives a fuck? Marc (21:42) Well the hold on the third wa some people measure their own physical health by these kinds of like these are like milestones, you know, like you wanna like people people you know there could be things they covet, like, you know, I I made my piece that I I don't I don't need a Ferrari. At first I wanted one really bad. You these are like like little things they could let go of. They're minor, but they're important, you know? Paul (22:08) Yeah, but but but I mean yeah, okay. Yeah. Marc (22:11) I know where I know okay. I know you're thinking I I'm bringing your conversation down from the macro to the really tantrum. Paul (22:15) No, I'm thinking you're a loser actually because you're letting go of the stream. Marc (22:19) Exactly. Why would you want to go to Paul (22:20) Like, what a fucking loser, you know. Marc (22:22) that? Exactly. This idiot wanted to to run marathons and it's Of course you should make a code at that too. Paul (22:32) It's yours. It's fucking stupid. It's like I fully agree. Why would you have this as a goal anyways? I was just wondering if it if if there is a joy in these kind of bullshit things that are more almost like externally driven goals in a sense, right? That you know, I have to run a marathon, I have to do this, I have to do that, because it's a little bit of what society or our bubble expects of you in Marc (22:57) Yeah. Paul (22:57) a sense, right? You have to have I don't know, a Rolex or a PatTech or some bullshit like this, you know, all these kind of things. Marc (23:02) yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (23:04) And and I was d one of those, you know, one hundred percent. or you have to have a certain Marc (23:08) Total douchebag, I remember Paul (23:10) yeah, fuck you. Marc (23:12) Ha ha. Paul (23:12) Or you have to have a certain job, you know, for me to be examp for example, to let go of the fact that I don't need to be the CEO of something anymore. If that ever happens, I'm gonna be it's gonna be Marc (23:27) Mm. Paul (23:27) I'm only gonna do it A if I really want to spend the time and energy on it. And B, it needs Marc (23:31) Mm. Paul (23:32) to happen and it's gonna be great. But I don't need this for me to be happy and to realize this and let go of this. But I think those are all kind of these to me I I I put them all in, you know, what does the world expect from you, from Paul or from Marc (23:44) Yeah. Paul (23:45) Mark, right? To achieve and and so on. and those to let go of those I find exhilarating. Marc (23:53) Yeah. I agree. Paul (23:54) And over and over again, to be honest, because every time you tell somebody and so many times people ask me, But what do you do now? Because everyone's expecting me to do something great. It's like, guys, I'm just, you know, not chilling up, but I'm doing my thing. I'm Marc (24:07) You Paul, actually there's a there Paul (24:09) you know, working on my projects, but I'm not gonna run XYZ anymore. And people are like, What? Every time is fun. Marc (24:14) You know, l like always with these sort of big amorphous topics, I'm trying to like I always take something away I didn't expect. And I agree, there's there's the art and I think a lot of people, by the way, bring it to our audience, you know, in our in our age. Like you kind of are in the act of letting go, in a way. You're in the act of like you're kinda midway in a way. Well, by definition. And then there's Paul (24:38) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Marc (24:40) some stuff and like time and you're like, okay, like, how do I like this is who I thought I would be, or this the things I would have and or or where I would, you know, as you said, the the type of family would be hosting and nurturing and like, okay, it's not that now. but the joy of saying it doesn't need to be And letting go of that kind of dream. Like Paul (25:03) Yeah, it's beautiful. Marc (25:04) you weren't always right. It's actually really a beautiful thought and and idea. And actually it's not talked about enough. I think we often talk about like where are you versus where you need to be and grow. What what we don't really talk about and would be kind of interesting counterpoint is like, hi, you know, Paul, nice to meet you. What have you let in go recently? Like what what what what directions have you reframed for yourself or new paths have you created? Because if you're thinking that your goals shouldn't change from when they started twenty years ago, you're not paying attention or it's quite naive. Paul (25:42) It is. I mean letting go is a sh is is and we wanted to talk about the art of letting go, right? And it is not easy. And as I s as I said, I think it's easier for the things that are that are kind of coming from from the outside. What's harder is the ones that that you really feel are are yours is what you always wanted to achieve. Like if you think I always wanted to be, you know, wanted to bring a play or a book or a screenplay into life. Marc (26:11) Mm. Paul (26:11) That is deeper than having a fucking Ferrari. You know what I mean? And I think and Marc (26:15) Yeah, much. Totally. Paul (26:17) and I think to let go of that dream is is a much harder exercise, I would suppose. And and and and you said it before, right? You're delaying it to a certain extent, right? You're just saying I'm Marc (26:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Paul (26:28) just not doing it right now. And and what what is beneath is I think there are things that trouble us that then we are forced to let go. But I'm almost more interested to think, okay, if you're done with that, can you let go of all the things that don't trouble you yet? And in the end, it's a lot about trust. It's a lot about trust that things are gonna be okay in yourself and in life, to be honest. Really in life and Marc (26:48) Yeah. In yourself though. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (26:55) the universe, which I understand for some. And now we're going into trusting the universe and and a lot of privilege, right? People with a as much privilege as us, it's easier for sure to trust than the universe than than others. But I think that's what it essentially is, is the meta topic below letting go. Is that. Marc (27:15) Yeah. that's a really interesting idea because you can't let go unless you trust that it's gonna be okay for a lot of cases in this scenario. Paul (27:27) Yeah. Otherwise you're always replacing it with something else. Which I I do the CEO thing too, by the way, right? I'm like, I'm not gonna do this because I want to spend more time with the kids. You know? So you're kind of like giving yourself a different purpose. So just say, I'm not gonna do this because it's not good for me and I see Marc (27:43) Yeah. Paul (27:43) what happens next is a different thing. And I I do also don't think that there is a master switch, you know, in the sense of like bloop, now I let go of everything. I I do think it is a A constant exercise. And in that context, Marc (27:59) I agree. Paul (28:00) I wonder are there things in your life that you have let go of in the past and that are coming back? And I would love an example if you had one. Marc (28:14) That have come back as a dream. You mean like a like a or isn't it Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. totally. Paul (28:16) As a dream, as a as a as a sting in your you know, in your side, as a belly egg. Marc (28:23) No no no no totally. I mean I honestly I think much of the writing that I had let go of for for fifteen years has come back with a vengeance. And then sure enough, even in with this new business, like I find myself, like why aren't we writing? Why aren't we making? Why aren't we creating like little things more? And I know that comes from a place of trying to like go back to a dream. Paul (28:44) But but how does it feel when it comes back? What does it do to you? Marc (28:47) I I welcome it. I'm like, hello old friend, you know? And I said maybe I have a chance of coming of of executing on that. It doesn't make me like say I have to suppress it. I think I welcome it as a desire. I won't understand why it's there. Paul (29:01) You have things that are more negative than that? Marc (29:05) yeah, of course. I mean, sorry, that's the positive version. Paul (29:09) Can I say something but why do you think about this? I had to let go of a lot of guilt and shame and stuff of of of of of of how you know I showed up in in my world at some phases of my life to a lot of people. And I had to let go of it because just drowning it is not healthy. It comes back every now and then. And when it comes back, it's not pleasant. And for a while I thought I'd let it go, but instead of letting it go, I just buried it. I just put it under a big motherfucking lid and I set my fat ass on it. And Marc (29:47) Mm. Paul (29:47) the problem is it's it's not staying there. And then it comes out with a vengeance in in in different forms. So to me, what I am I am currently learning is To not lock it away, but to let it go in a sense that it doesn't take me to places anymore and I welcome it, right? Although it sucks and it sucks to feel like Marc (30:10) Yeah. Paul (30:11) this. But it's kinda like, hello feeling, you motherfucker. Right? Now I'm gonna sit again and feel like shit for a little bit, and I'm gonna cry and I'm gonna be angry at myself and the world and whatnot, but I also know it's been there before, it's gonna go over and it's fine. It's part of it. And to me that is become a very important distinction that letting go doesn't mean you're not gonna see that motherfucker ever again anymore. You're gonna see him or her. Marc (30:42) I I'm so glad you you shared that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a very real example just hearing you talk like that, which is easily my relationship with my old employer. And I feel like there were a lot of I don't feel like anger just like like there's just moves that were done, decisions were made, which I'm also sort of complicit in. And like, you know, I I revisit it all the time, sometimes, you know? And, you know, I I always say it's a distraction. Just let go, let go. Like you can't reitigate like a past or or decision that was made and you know, I think I I I'm obviously like wrestling with you know, you you experience a company one way and then it changes, right? And you and you like you you have to grieve that or mourn a little bit of that loss and accept it. And in some cases i i it's amazing how these feelings just bumble up to the surface, you know. Someone makes a comment, someone gets a ping, and I just suddenly talk about it for two hours with my co-friend. Like we haven't let it go. It's so obvious, you know, that we're still wrestling Paul (32:01) Mm. Marc (32:01) with like what it meant to close and what it meant to leave. And and you know, it's not the guilt or shame or things that you you talked about. I mean honestly like as you know I'm I'm amazing at rewriting a new story for myself and a reality for myself that's always better that I'll try to live in. But Paul (32:20) Yeah, yeah. Marc (32:21) but it's amazing that this comes back to me. Always. It's it's about ego. Paul (32:25) But I wonder if it's you know, if it's about those things in the past, if there is a difference between the things that you have done and the things that were done to you. What do you Marc (32:39) Huh. Paul (32:39) think? You know, 'cause I think a lot of I I I have two very concrete examples of things that were done to me. Marc (32:46) This is you are you are really by the way, you are really good at doing the segmentation of this. Paul (32:50) I have a slide in front of me, in fact. Marc (32:54) Okay, I think it's harder for you to let go of things that have been done to you. Things that you've done. Paul (33:06) I and I think that's where we're Marc (33:07) at least for me. Paul (33:07) different. I disagree. Marc (33:10) I mean very rarely have I been fucked over. But if I've been fucked over f very rarely Paul (33:12) But it's fair enough. I mean, yeah. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Marc (33:16) have I been fucked over, but if I've been fucked over I mean there's one thing about getting into an argument, but if I've been really fucked over, I am not gonna forget that thing. You know? It just comes back to me and I will like like like she looks Paul (33:31) Gonna fuck this motherfucker up. The art of letting go. Fuck the shit. I'm not gonna let this fucker go. Marc (33:34) They are fuck you. Exactly. And there's no joy, right? There's no joy in letting go until they're dead. Six feet no kidding. but versus like a a choice you've made, I think like, you know, that's back to like you've I think you have to Forgive and move on. Learn from it and move on. Paul (33:53) I I can tell you in it from for me personally it is the the things that others did to me come more often and they sting. Marc (34:06) Mm. Paul (34:08) and it is almost more joyful to let them go because I know when I let them go I only do something for myself and it's great because you know this whatever they did there's nothing about myself. All of this is me and is me in control actually. The things that I fucked up don't come to me that often because I try to push them away. Right, because you don't like to look at your own mistakes so often if you're very honest. Marc (34:29) Mm. No. Paul (34:33) But then w I find them I would love to let go of them much more. Right? Because there's no one else, there's no counterpart, it's just me. It's just me with me. Marc (34:43) Yeah, I agree. Paul (34:45) and but it's harder. I find it in the end, I find it harder. That they don't come that often, but I find it harder. And less joyful also, you know, in in a sense. And it's it I find that to me is very difficult. To really let go. And and this is all the past stuff. And if we break here on the future stuff, I find those because the past stuff I find kind of a no-brainer to say, let go of the things that trouble you, whether you d did it to yourself or somebody else has done Marc (35:11) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (35:13) it to you, is the same shit. Let go of it. Good but I think we can all underwrite under this. But if we think about the future things, let go of your dreams. Is that a sentence you would put on the back of your, you know, as a bumper sticker? Marc (35:25) Fuck no. That's that's the opposite. Yeah. yeah yeah. Paul (35:26) That's a tough one. Fuck no. I would say fuck yes, let go of your dreams. Let go of your dreams when they are connected to things. Marc (35:34) Wow, we are so different. Paul (35:36) Yeah, but but I mean, I'm not saying let go of your dreams in the sense of a of a state or you know a feeling, but how you get there. Marc (35:48) Yeah. No, no, that's true. And actually I think like well hold on, Paul (35:51) But I mean who who dreams of it, you know? Marc (35:53) hold on. Can I can I add something? Like I I think if you Paul (35:56) absolutely. Marc (35:59) I I I wanna be clear like what I mean like I I like what you're saying about let going of your dreams. I mean you might let go of like what we're really after it's it's not about what you do or have, it's about how you feel, right? I think at the end and if you have an outcome that represents the feeling of realizing your dream. That's a that's a powerful thing. Paul (36:23) promise I like the feeling of skiing in a very Marc (36:28) Exactly. Paul (36:30) nice ski resort, you know. And that's that's not coming for free. No, I'm I'm joking. I'm I'm I'm killing my own argument Marc (36:32) Yeah yeah, yeah. Wow. Thank you for thank you for bringing up some no Paul (36:39) no, I I find this is an interesting one. Is it giving up on things when you say I don't need to achieve X, Y, Z? And I think we as a society we do that. If we meet someone who says, you know what, I don't care what I'm gonna be in that job. Marc (36:54) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (36:54) I d I that doesn't mean I don't wanna be great at it, but I don't that's not a goal of mine. I I do think many of us, including myself at at many points in my life, would have just put a loser stamp on that motherfucking's forehead. No? Like what what the fucking what what is this shit, you know? Why are you playing the game if you're not in it to win it? You know? But I think there is a a value in Marc (37:25) Yeah. Because Paul (37:25) Not playing it to win it. Marc (37:27) you know why? Because there can only be so many winners. and and of Paul (37:31) Obviously there is the odds, but I mean Marc (37:33) no no no no no of a particular game versus versus where where you're taking it is win it your own. which is which is more liberating. Paul (37:39) Yeah, exactly. Define your own rules, define your own game and do that. So maybe the future one holds some more conversations to be had because I think that's really difficult really interesting. Marc (37:53) It's a good way to close too, to be honest. Like I'm thinking about like the invitation when I'm walking away from this, I mean there are a lot of awakenings for this conversation. Paul (38:01) Go ahead. What are you walking away? Yeah. Marc (38:04) Well, I mean, I I think there's something to be really understood about, you know, letting go of of the when things happen to you versus of your own choices and reckoning with those. this is a really interesting moment where where we are both in life and maybe in career where Letting go is actually quite top of mind. We actually have to make choices, right? About what you're pursuing, what you're not pursuing, what dreams you still have, what holds you back from from going after those. And it's a really opportune time, actually, post vacation, settling in, looking ahead to closing the year. I'm thinking, gosh, like what still serves me at this moment? What do I need to like put aside? You know, and who can I help? Take things off my my plate and This notion of playing your own game, I think, is really powerful. You know, don't play Paul (38:57) Mm. Marc (38:57) what society tells you to, but define what winning looks like for you and what that outcome is, and certainly don't make it tangible. You know, that's stuff we knew, but it's important to remind yourself. Though though a ski resort in Austria sounds pretty fucking tangible to me, but Paul (39:19) It does. No, but to to me what really stays is that that fine line and because that's something I'm I'm always thinking about and if you want struggling a little bit, that fine line between is it giving up now or is it actually surrendering? Yo Mark. This was fun. Thank you. Marc (39:40) I agree. What what a good way to kick off season two. We're not letting go of this podcast. Paul (39:45) We are not, I'm sorry, guys. See you soon, Mark. Marc (39:49) Sorry, world. See you.