The 5 Leadership Qualities Needed Right Now | Ep 49

Take III === ​[00:00:00] Intro & Welcome --- Paul: Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about all the topics that come to you in your prime, which is, as we know, your midlife. We are talking about fun things like AI or relationships, friendships, fun nights out, all the things that moved us and continue to move We are Marc Winter and myself, both co-hosts of this podcast. My name's Paul Fattinger. I am today calling in from Marc's basement in New York. Usually, I live in beautiful and tranquil Austria Marc: First of all, he says Marc's basement. He's not in my basement. He's in a wine cellar downstairs. It on the lower floor. Hi Paul: Hi. who am I though? Um, apart from being Austrian and in New York right now, I'm an entrepreneur, a father of three, a lover of rabbit holes that span from AI to forests to [00:01:00] self-help improvement and I'm joined by Marc Marc: Hi, everyone. I'm also an entrepreneur. How about part-time artist, father of two, and, I'm also gonna call myself a little bit of a philosopher these days, so Paul: I'm think you are, Marc I think you are. And today we're gonna talk about a topic that is very close to our hearts and professional lives, and that is leadership in the era of AI. we're already manifesting as a university course as well, and it's based on, a very interesting framework that Marc developed, Marc's frameworksare sometimes very philosophical, and I'm trying to translate them into real world application Marc: and I would also add, I think you landed on it, um, this is all the shit that the machine can't do Terminator & Idiot of the Week --- Paul: We are sitting again in your beautiful wine cellar. This time being sponsored by Marc's wine Marc: It's, it's a, it's a longtime sponsor of this podcast, let me tell [00:02:00] you. Paul: It, it is. It is. And we're having a beautiful glass of, um, white Marc: What do you mean white wine? It's white burgundy, Macon-Villages. You want to burgundy. white... exactly we had, we had two other bottles of that last night. Different ones though, but really beautiful Yeah, super great place. Ley Wine Bar, New York Paul: No, it was fantastic. It was Marc: special. And a very, for New York, m- uh, a wine list that isn't so appalling, you know, to Paul: At X new? Marc: yeah. It wasn't crazy. I mean, it's still embarrassing compared to Europe, but, like, w- it wasn't, like- Yeah ... face melting. It had, had a... Let's put, let's put it this way. They had, uh, at least two dozen bottles under $100. Paul: Yeah, before we drift too far off, um, looking back, how was your week? What would you say was your terminator or idiot or idiotic Marc: So we, at Libra, we crushed a lot of meetings, um, this week and, and, and had really great progress. Um, you know, it's funny, when, when [00:03:00] things go so well, you don't remember what, what, what was the good meeting, what was the bad meeting, 'cause they're all pretty much really good so Paul: Who did you talk Marc: Uh, well, I was with, uh, Microsoft, NBC Universal, DocuSign. Oh, yeah, the Gap too, duh. Yeah, those are, those are not bad. And, Paul: Yeah, I'd say. Congrats, man. Fucking awesome Marc: terminating, great. Great progress, awesome. Idiotic thing. At Saidlat, uh, Wine Bar at Laie, uh, you know, we gave great direction to the som-som-sommelier. We were like, "Hey, you know what? We want a w- bottle of white Burgundy for under $100." He nods, he says, "Okay." He asks a bunch of questions that felt quite snobby to us. We're like, "Dude." And then he disappears and, and like my face just turned sour. I almost wanted to get up and leave the Paul: Me too. I was almost... Yeah, yeah. What the fuck is this? Yeah, totally. Marc: This idiot," right? And then he shows up with this beautiful bottle of wine and goes and explains it to us in perfect detail of why and [00:04:00] unique, where it sits on the slope, like with m- full mastery, pours this wine. It's great, and I was like, "God, my biases." Like I was just, it was just really Paul: No, I, Marc: was just really focused on it, Paul: See, how stupid would it have been if we had left the Marc: restaurant been the dumbest. I don't know. Yeah, and we wouldn't even know we were idiots At least now we, we know we were close to Paul: we were close to it. We were close to it. We're... Which is actually the best knowing, you know, not actually committing the, the, the stupidity, Marc: uh the Paul: idiocy. Listen, my-- I think my terminator of the week is the, executive assistant/CRM/chief of Marc: This thing is Paul: agent that I have built, and that is really now fully in production, and it is really ridiculous. It's managing, it has... We talked about it in one of the episodes. It has access to all my project files, to the project backgrounds, to obviously my contacts, my email, my WhatsApp. Um, it sends me a brief every morning about what's gonna happen in my day. I can ask it questions. it is [00:05:00] unbelievable, and it's getting better and better, and I'm really excited about Marc: You know what? I think next year you're actually gonna be part machine. It's gonna be Paul: I am already a Marc: That's true. Paul: and, and the idiotic thing is I mean, how much time I spent with this shit. I, I don't... I'm, I'm not quite sure it really pays off. I'm sure I could actually just get a product that probably does 80% of it. But as you all know, I'm not an 80% guy. I'm more like 110% guy. Uh, but it is, it is the, the AI machine and the fact that you can do things and build things and, and always ship something within a few hours or even within a few minutes is so addictive in a sense, that every time I I'm so excited and I sit down and I just start doing shit. And I know that sometimes it would be smarter to not turn on Claude and just sit and actually think and, and do some big stuff and not, you know, do those little things. And that's kind of the idiotic how Marc: many tokens have you blown through? Paul: much did you spend overall? I think June is over $40 [00:06:00] Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm always in these windows and you guys who are Claude addicts as I am know exactly what that means, right? If you, if you get the, uh, your limit is at 90% and your session still, it takes three hours to, you know, for your session to restart, that's tough three hours. So I've become really good at mastering my sessions, you know? So I, I really run out of tokens at the end of the session. I can make a half an hour break and then I'm getting... new next session starts and I get so excited. It is a little bit idiotic. they're doing a great job in, in hooking us into the next shit. The Marc: definitely hooked. Well, you know, that's a great, um, a segue, I think, i- into our, today's topic today, which we, which, um, basically how to hook an executive into AI. I'm kidding, but it's really about leadership in the Paul: th- is an important part of it, I think Is important part Marc: Totally. Totally. And, you know, we, we were having a, a brilliant time, actually, I think, wh- while you're here in New York, also kind of envisioning, and starting to distill a [00:07:00] little bit of what a philosophy around what leading in the AI era could be and is. And,one thing we, definitely were debating is basically to, to say like, "Hey, is it really different? Is this moment really different for, for leadership?" What do you in terms of the technology shift we're Paul: I think it's a, it's a great question, and I like to say, maybe as a provocation, that think sometimes we make problems bigger than they are because we like to feel special. And I think there is a huge power in simplifying things and in looking for analogies of what has happened before, and learn from that rather than reinventing When it comes to the whole AI thingy, I am really drawn obviously to the last big digital disruption It was huge change. Um, I think many of the things we need to do now are similar or have been done before. let's leave the provocation like this [00:08:00] and say, you know what? It's just another technical revolution. So actually we know what's happening. Let's just apply what we learned and Is AI Really Different This Time? --- Marc: So, so we're gonna have a, our, our first I don't know if it's a disagreement or a build. So I, I do think this one is reMarcably different, and, I'm not a hype guy, I'll explain why. I, I was originally agreeing with you until I had this meeting at Google, and this isn't Google that's-- I just wanna be really clear it's not endorsing this. It was just a leader who was opining on something I put up And it was, uh, it, on that slide, I was, uh, we had this kind of nice turn of phrase saying, "In a world that's obsessed with automation, we're obsessed with what can't be automated," you And I thought that was cute and fun, and we're talking about human leadership and, and, and this, this leader took a look at that, and she said, "You know, is this really about been trying to automate..." Every other technological kind of advance has been about automation. You know, of course. You know, we're, we're, we're improving our processes is Six-- [00:09:00] whether it's the, you know, the assembly line to Six Sigma and the operating table. And you could argue even digital transformation is very, very much about automation. She said, she said, "This is about wisdom capture. This is about wisdom capture. We are asking you to give your knowledge to the black box that is and that thing, and you will never get that back. And we're asking, uh, all of humanity to sort of kind of prompt this and, and move forward," And as leaders then, what's left for you to do very of- very often when you give your th- your, your wisdom for you are of, of, of how to do, you know, discounted cash flow to, uh, how to look at a balance sheet to like how to like, I mean, like what's, what's the, the, the leadership kind of shifts a little bit, you know? And significantly Paul: that, sounds very nice. I, I mean, wisdom capture, not you know, great, you know, beautiful. Uh, however, what does it actually mean and, and how is it different from, okay, the first time around you had [00:10:00] an ERP that automatically, I whatever a bill of materials or some shipping orders that before you had some person sitting in a room with lots of paper doing it. You had this person with lots of paper telling some systems engineer what the, they were doing. They put into code, they shipped it, and that person had less to do. So, I mean, it was also wisdom that was captured. It was put into a machine, and then something was automated. And now we are putting the wisdom of a call agent into the machine, and we don't need the call agent anymore because the AI is doing it for us. So tell me the difference. Marc: here's how it's different than past technological, revolutions. In my, in my view, those were about process improvement. This is really taking, like, knowledge workers almost out of the loop Paul: That is true Marc: and, it is a profoundly different kind of shift. So, um, and therefore, I think, like, as we think about how it affects leaders and what leaders are doing in this age, right? And it's, it's so interesting, like in my [00:11:00] you know, you see-- I, I-- my heart really goes out to, to a lot of these guys. You know, you're schooled in one era of business, and now we're firmly entering And what's required, I think, of people to kind of thrive in the AI era, I think, will Marcedly shift. What are your Paul: I actually agree. I threw this out as a provocation before because I'm torn. Um, from what I see right now, when, when, when and how companies apply this technology, it is a lot about process improvement still in a different way. Um, a-and so I think it is has already- Marc: we're just in the efficiency phase of the growth curve, Paul: right? Exactly. We are in this efficiency phase right now, and that's what people use it for. I, I do think there's already a difference because it is way more or it can be way more accessible to, to every individual, uh, uh, who can, who can basically dope themselves, you know, put themselves full of, uh, peptides and become a [00:12:00] better professional, which is crazy and we should talk about later. a-and I really do think it, eliminates the need for certain types of workers and certain types of, um, education levels. Uh, we talked about this in podcasts. I mean, all the people that come fresh out of, uh, university, et cetera, very difficult I find, et cetera, PP. So I think the, the, the change is, is massive, and this is also-- And maybe as the last one, it gives also people like me who have no idea, uh, how to code and what-- all, all of a sudden a tool in their hands that they can create and imagine things and which I think is, uh, to me feels extremely empowering, in fact. Marc: Yeah. And I think that's, that's beautiful. So I, I agree with you that the impact is different and, and will be different. I don't think we can see completely, we see right now and how companies apply it, to summarize it, is still a bit boring, but I think it could be way more fun, and it can be way more fun and crazy and impactful very soon, [00:13:00] which is why we also thought of putting together a little class for MBA, EMBA students at our alma mater- Esade Paul: Well, well, let me ask you this. Me, me too, by the way. You, you ran Womb for a few years, so, you know, knowing what you didn't... Like, how would you approach the use of this technology given what you, what we know not at all. I think it's a very interesting question. I mean, the one, the one area is, is, uh, I think very simply, How Companies Should Apply AI Today --- Paul: if you just look at your company, uh, as a set of processes and things that are done, and you just look where can this technology have the biggest impact. Marc: And, and obviously, you know, at Woom, we had a huge customer service team, and we were very proud of our customer service, and we had always five stars and whatever, and this was very important to us that our customers can always reach us and talk to us. This is something where we can enhance the experience extremely, and I'm not saying, you know, by taking people out, but by [00:14:00] just being really twenty-four/seven available. Paul: First level support is completely automated. Fantastic. So one thing would be which are the areas where it can have the most impact, which find is very interesting. Uh, but I think that's the efficiency the curve, would you But I think the s- the, the second one where it gets really interesting is I what is this company-- How would you-- I would ask myself the question, if I now created this company- how would I build this place from the ground up knowing that this technology exists? Uh, and how do I combine this technology with humans, and where do I actually need humans, and where can this technology actually really help me, and how much work does it do? So if I was a new company, what would I do, and then what's the gap and how do I get Marc: Could you, could you-- I mean, I think what's really interesting actually about this provocation is that, you know, you make kids' bikes or you, you know, Woom make kids' [00:15:00] bikes, right? So, so physical things. And yet, uh, I imagine... Here's a potential hypothesis, is that I could create a competitor in short order w- uh, with these tools. it would take a significant amount of time, but with-- uh, with cer-certainly significant less human Paul: I disagree on that, and that's why I think, by the way, that, uh, physical products are so interesting because you still need people, somewhere that, that make the frame, paint the frame, that do all of this. And to set this up and to set this up at scale, no AI can do. No AI cannot help you doing that either. maybe help you find factories, but you have to go... There's so much work involved in this. and that's why this space Marc: I find a lot of relief Paul: So far. Maybe, know, uh, maybe when we talk robots in five to 10 years or less, that's a But The 5 Human Leadership Capabilities --- Paul: So we're gonna move from bike frames to, [00:16:00] hey, a different kind of frame here. Uh, a type of framework around the leadership capabilities required, for the AI era, and we thought we would do something fun todayI'm gonna riff a little bit about, the five that we've identified. I'm gonna name them now, and Paul is gonna serve as the, let's call it Marc translator, useful language that people be able to apply. oh, okay. So I'm gonna translate bullshit into real life. That's fantastic. But let's do them one by one, though. I mean, riff through them once, and then let's do them Marc: Okay. so ju- just a quick list and then we'll go it. Okay, so my, uh, the, the top five I would like to talk about is imagination, collective judgment, accountability, conviction, and Yeah. Paul: They don't spell something, Exactly It well, uh, not that cheesy. you know of. Yeah, that would be fun Anyways, okay. Which one do you wanna Okay, what does it mean in your I think it's the, the [00:17:00] curiosity, um, the vision and ingenuity, I think, to, #1 Imagination --- Paul: to uncover new growth, deepen customer love, unlock new value, uh, through, um, the application of the tool of AI to understand, like, how can ultimately unlock new growth my, for my organization, et cetera. And candidly also, when the tool gives you all the answers that have ever been done before in human how do I create the I've find this a very challenging and almost daunting one because if I think I have to be imaginative now, otherwise I will be replaced, I find that creates a lot of pressure. That's the first association I have with However, I agree with you on a, on a logical level that that is important. But, and, but I think the first, the first thing I [00:18:00] be you know, but what if I'm just a person that runs, you know, a boring process in a boring company? You you tell yourself this. I'm not the optimist says, "Good news, you get you know? Exactly. It's like, "Good, great." And it's like, "I don't wanna be." You know? I'm, I'm happy doing my shit nine to yeah, yeah, I, I agree. But I think, uh, first of all, I'm glad you also agree of its When you... I think the business impact of that shared ambition. That is that if you create a bold idea big enough, right, as a, as, as a leader okay, you know, my company with AI plus, you um, or plus AI equals what? that to me is, is really interesting, right? To, to sum that idea. And I, I have to be honest with you, I wanna echo what you just said. That is r- probably the, I'm leading with the hardest one, hard, but I have two number one application that's for everybody [00:19:00] is, and you said it is use you know, as a help for imagination because it can tell you so many things that you don't know. It can, it c- it is like it is like fuel on your fire of curiosity. Marc: Uh, it gives you research, it gives you ideas, it can, uh, you know, you can MVP things, and I think it can just, yeah, basically be a turbocharger your, for your ideas. And so everybody can use that and just do it. I think that's number one. And as a leader, what I find very interesting is so far, and also research shows this in my own research on myself also shows we actually use AI and become more and we use the time that we do even more things. Paul: We don't use the time to say, "Hey, great. We just automated Great example, our podcast, right? So all of a sudden, I automated most of our post-production stuff. It [00:20:00] saved me two hours a Am I sitting in the forest for two hours in a week now contemplating of what should be next? Really, you know, uh, tapping into my creative imaginative juices? doing a stupid agent that helps me the next thing. So, so my point is, is exactly that. As a leader, if you manage to actually har- you know, harvest some of that efficiency gains that we talked about, use them to give your people some time to breathe and think and imagine Marc: reinvesting. That's-- Wow, you're a pretty good translator. I like um, next is w- what, what we're calling kind of collective judgment, which we'll say is like the taste, big word out in the valley, uh, discernment, and discipline to deepen collaboration and make decisions as one you so basically, look, I mean, #2 Collective Judgment --- Marc: AI is gonna s- spit out five to six, sometimes a dozen different a- [00:21:00] possibilities or answers, right? This is about really deploying kind the discernment to understand what's the best one, and especially as a leadership team when you're all together, right? It's also really important to also align kind of on that, right? Paul: As a, like, "Hey, AI tells us this, gave us these five answers, six answers. We're gonna apply our own wisdom to that, and we're gonna pick The thing that comes to my mind the fact I think with this technology, and I referred to this before, we all become And I tell you why. Because as a leader, and I know as a CEO, what do you do all the time is very similar than working with a lot of agents that give you a lot of options and things to decide That's your you have a problem, a team comes in, you weigh in all the different opinions. There's three options. You [00:22:00] decide for one, you explain it why, you communicate it, and I think this type of thinking and doing is now required by way more people in the organization that get exactly those options, maybe from an agent, from an AI. And I think it's very difficult sometimes to actually sit down and digest all the information and the stuff that comes from AI, not just say, "Continue, continue, continue." You know, basically Claude code already tells you the next prompt, So you could just go there and sit and hit enter all day long, and then just live with what comes out. But to actually pause, apply your taste, apply judgment, and do this, and it's very anstrengend in German. takes lot of energy to do this. And I think that is, that is what I, I know, suggest it. And it-- I suggest it to myself because I hit enter a lot also. I was like, "Fuck it, just do this [00:23:00] shit," you know? But to really sit and think and understand what are the important forks and which forks are not to apply your taste also, you know, look, I, I, I prompt all the time for it to, to create content, you know? And you realize that AI is incredibly good at mimicking something that sounds great, you know, and underneath it is shit. So, so, um, you know, it, it's, it's like a actor. You know, they look great on screen Yeah. Marc: next Okay next one yeah, exactly. Please don't open your mouth. Okay. Okay, next one, accountability. And, you know, this could be a much faster one because I can tell you there's this great IBM quote from 19- a 1978 that says, "A machine..." I'm gonna butcher the q- the quote, but the sentiment will be the A machine can never be accountable, uh, for a decision, therefore, no machine should ever make a[00:24:00] Uh, #3 Accountability --- Marc: so the, the third one is accountability. And you know, I, I'm gonna, uh, share a quote that I know captures this. This is from an IBM handbook, internal company, uh, training handbook from 1979. You ready? It says, uh, "A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a management Paul: Yes. what changes Well, I think actually this is where, this is where it gets really important because I think with AI, um, spouting out so many outcomes, right? Um, and so many possible different outcomes, people will no doubt, uh, blame the technology, right, for a lot of the, uh, outcomes that come through, right? And ultimately, I think your role, and this comes back to the taste piece, to the imagination piece, that, the really kind of f- that go through there is, is to, uh, really be the human in the [00:25:00] own that, right? And that, that's what this is really about. And, and therefore, that's how you get to decisions that To me, that's very much connected to what we just about, and this can be a short one. Um, it is your-- You are accountable for it, so you actually can't just click enter all the time. And while you don't click enter, that's the accountability part, you have to apply your taste, uh, and your, uh, and your human judgment. I that's it. I think 100%. Let's move on to Marc: Okay, #4 Conviction --- Marc: number four, we're almost there, uh, is conviction. And you know why we're calling out conviction, right? It's because things are so Things are changing all the time, every few weeks, right? You get a new, a new release about a new update. It's Mythos, it's Fable, it's a new, um, you know, doomsday, um, memo that's distinct this, uh, the stock Marcet There's a lot of fear out there, right? And people, uh, really wanna be led. And I think, you know, conviction to me is a strong creates clarity as a [00:26:00] but nimble enough to adapt to the chaos of And this, to me, is really a fascinating and, and, and really important leadership skill. Paul: Look, we've seen conviction in the past show up, you know, historically. But as we think about now, about, like, what will be true to us as we apply kind of AI into our business, and what, what can we let go of won't I love this one. I think, I mean, from a CEO perspective, absolutely, a-and very hard, I think Yeah ... because you have to, you know, you make your bets and stick That's That's right. As you always do, but in this case, it's, it, more hinges on it and it changes faster. As an individual, and, and that's one for everybody, and I felt it mys- and you notice this FOMO that you get around this And you have that sometimes when I tell you what I do with this you're like, "Fuck, fuck, fuck," you know, "What do I do?" And then you [00:27:00] are, oh, the next model comes out, and there is so much content created also on how to become the next blah, blah, blah, how to build a system of agents, how to make $10,000 a month with your new whatever, blah. A-and what I learned and I do over and over again, is to just pick one thing, stick to it, because there is no point in understanding for me how create XYZ. You know, how I, I create an Obsidian vault of all my Marcdown files that then makes a knowledge graph and blah, blah, blah. For you to get into this right now doesn't make any Marc: You know, you mentioned fo- FOMO. Uh, can I, can I offer another one that relates this? I just heard this from the, the Valley last week. FOBO, fear of being obsolete Paul: Also interesting, So I mean, to the conviction part, to tie it back down is don't be driven crazy by all the FOMO that is out there and everybody's trying to tell you that you have to do X, Y, Z. Yeah. There is also a path [00:28:00] here, and the path is to sit your ass down, um, and just try to understand the technology, find an application for it, do it, do it, do it, and you will progress and learn. If you're always like, "Ah, maybe the next thing comes, and maybe I should do that," and you jump left and right and front and center, you're not gonna pick up on Marc: and also, I mean, there's a lot of para- paralysis inside organizations in terms of how to apply the technology, and if you want speed to execution, like have some strong and Okay, last one, my favorite, 'cause it's, you know, we're not even at 30,000 feet, we're in space. Uh, #5 Soul --- Paul: it The last one, Inspiration and authenticity that build engagement, and accelerate I think soul in this moment is I mean, I, I'm probably on this one not gonna make it more concrete because, um, [00:29:00] on this topic of soul and, and being connected to ourselves and, and to each other is a very important topic for me. And I do think, though, that as leaders and as individuals, if wanna make it in a world where most of the things that we have done in the past will be executed better by a machine, we have to focus on what makes humans humans. And those are the things that we also probably can't describe or measure, and it's how we connect to ourselves, how we connect to us as a society, how do we connect to all the energies coming from the universe, because I think that's what makes us special. And it means that we should be probably more present in what we do, um, more that we work with and all of this, and that's how we're gonna as humans in, in this whole machine. So to me, that is super important and, um, was actually also back to our SR course, kind of one of the backbones that I want to, [00:30:00] uh, transmit there is that we, I think, all could benefit from a better understanding of what makes us human. Marc: How do we tick? H- w- what is- Yeah. You can actually measure whether you are connected or not, you know. You can measure your stress levels, you can measure your nervous Yeah. We talked about this before, blah, blah, blah. And how do you work with that, um, to make humans work better together and actually get the most out of their humanness? So that's what I understand as soul, and I think it's super Yeah Uh, there's not much more to add to that, but I, I just have some anecdotal e-evidence, and I probably shared this in a podcast before, but, you know, in, When, when Libra facilitates these conversations with a lot of leaders, uh, you know, one kind of futuristic-type card that we have is like, "Hey, in the future, organizations will require a chief meaning And that chief meaning officer is the one who has to decide, "Hey, what is the purpose of our AI, of our human workforce? What's the purpose of our agents, and what's the purpose [00:31:00] of the human plus And I think, you know, the amount of heat and calling for, for that inside, you know, companies of huge organizations, you know, filled of-- with engineers, coders, et cetera. "No, we need tells me that soul is, um... I mean, that's soul work, right, in a way, and, and a beautiful thing. So, and, and, and I think, you know, l- uh, for leaders, um, s- who are guiding organizations through that era, I think that has to be really fun. At least that's cool. Like, at least you have to really think through, like, what's... You're almost defending humanity against the machines in a way. But, um, uh, being clear about, "Hey, what's, what's something that, that only us can do? Let's land on that," you know, and be clear. I think that's Paul: What I really like about this framework, um, just to not take the piss for a second here, uh, remember this moment, is, no, it is, it is really defining things only we [00:32:00] as humans Yeah. And we all It's a bit intimidating if you think that we must be all of those And to me, it makes it easier can be all of I like and that we maybe get the opportunity to finally maybe we don't need to be all of those things as a 10 out of 10, as we know, nothing like that ever uh, we can play to those strengths, and I'm sure one of five or two of five, everybody has a strength there. And, and, and hopefully we get the space to, to exploit these strengths. On the other side also, you know, let's not, you know, fuzzy. You also have to act together, uh, to get your act together and get out there and learn this technology and understand it, because it's here to stay. It's here to take over many of the things, many parts of our lives. Um, but it's an opportunity. It's an unbelievable opportunity, and if you are curious, [00:33:00] the world is your oyster in, in this day and It's the season of reinvention. Well, hey man, this was, this was a lot of fun. Uh, thank you for serving as my translator, uh, for for everyone else. You did a great Marc: So, Takeaways & Wrap-Up --- Marc: my takeaways from this, great conversation was that first of all, we're absolutely in a new era of leadership for AI. Completely. I think, I think we're, we're totally aligned in this. And two is that actually the automation story, you know, maybe won't take hold, uh, as people fully imagine. And, you know, I think your, your point about organizations that make physical things to me is actually Uh, I, I don't, I don't see, uh, a plethora or, or, or 1,000 kids bikes companies, you know, uh, showing up and, and, and, and doing billions of dollars worth of business. Uh, for all the reasons that you cited, it's really And then, um, the third thing is like, look, this [00:34:00] framework, if you will, of imagination, collective judgment, accountability, conviction, and soul. I you, you outlined actually something I never really thought of, which are, these are things the machine can't And what you should be doing is leading to the things that the machine can't do, right? As the next gen, gen part of leadership. So thank you for that. I didn't really have that, um, that kind of insight before, and I think it's Paul: So my takeaways is, number one, this is not as stupid as I thought and which is told great because we're gonna use it for our course. there's one thing we didn't talk about so much but is underlying, is I think you need all of those qualities also to manage all this change that is going to not only for your teams, but also for yourself. This openness and, and it's going to be a constant change, change, change, change, change. Yeah. It's not just, ah, we have this transformation and it's done, and then we have smooth sailing. I don't think there's gonna be any smooth sailing. And [00:35:00] when you really these qualities through, they all play into that, right? And I think this is extremely important. And the other thing that is right there, Conviction versus FOMO versus, I'm hiding from this. you have nothing to lose. Um, and yes, we have this whole thing we're giving. You said in the beginning, we give our knowledge to the machine and it's wisdom capture, and then all of a sudden we are, we are obsolete. No. Then all of a sudden we have more time to do actual awesome shit, and that should be the mindset Love Marc, this was super fun. It was a blast. I'm so glad that you, you realize that the, the framework we put forth is an act of Nothing to add