guyslikeus EP15: who are guys like us actually? two friends, two interviews

Marc Winter (00:12) Hello, welcome to guys like us the podcast about existential problems and champagne issues. How are you, Paul? I'm amazing. Oh, it's Paul Fattinger (00:19) I am fantastic, how are you Mark? Happy birthday! I'm not gonna sing though because I think that's when everyone turns off but happy birthday buddy! What an honor! Marc Winter (00:32) Thank you. I decide I'm officially middle-aged. I don't know if that's actually true, but can't escape 45. 44, you're like, maybe I'm lower 40s. Paul Fattinger (00:45) No, actually not. But you know what? told you, did I ever tell you this theory? I think 44, I'm sorry for you, was great for me, is great because it is, it's clearly also already, you know, in your mid forties, but it's the start, right? Whereas 43 was kind of the end of being early forties and a little bit in the end of things usually sucks. So 44 is fine. know, 45 is fine. I think then 47 is going to suck again, but Hey, now 45 is awesome. So enjoy. Marc Winter (00:53) Yeah, yeah. Yes. Totally true. Awesome, well look, I think every year is pretty great, you know, actually I like dispelling what that year's supposed to be and just feeling good, you know, and pushing forward. Paul Fattinger (01:14) No, I agree. I agree. was just You know, I make up a new story of why this is the best age I've ever had every year. And this is my 44 story. I know it's been working out. You know, it's been really working out well for me. think, think, yeah, it's all, it's all what you believe. think. Marc Winter (01:26) Yeah, good. How's that working out for you? Okay, well. Well, it's an incredible fall day here in New York. It's, you know, how do you say it? Kaiserwetter, right, in German? Right, yeah, just to show off. Paul Fattinger (01:46) ⁓ man, is this a new thing that every podcast episode you're going to impress me with some German shit because I always make fun of you that you don't actually speak German? Okay. Marc Winter (01:56) Totally, you know, I want our listeners convinced that I actually, one day we'll do one entirely in German. Maybe episode 250, we'll see. With that, exactly. That is my dream. That's what we're working towards, exactly. Paul Fattinger (02:04) This is how you can become the Hof, basically, you know, the new Hof of Austria. This is your dream. That's why we're actually doing, know, guys, Mike wants to, you know, be the most popular English speaking podcast in Austria. So that's actually why we're doing all of this. And number one, and exactly. And number two is, so he basically wants to be the new David Hasselhoff, right? I mean, have the, the, the, this, this funny kind of, you know, fame where you're an American actor, I guess. Marc Winter (02:22) I know the bar is very high for that. Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (02:36) But your your principal place of fame is somehow the Austrian German market. So think that's where you want to go. Marc Winter (02:42) Am I in a midlife crisis? honest. I like this? that? Paul Fattinger (02:46) I know a thing or two about that, but let's not jump things. But no, I don't think you are. I think it's a totally legit thing to want. Absolutely. Yeah. No, no, fully. Full, full on agree. Marc Winter (02:52) That seems like a reasonable dream. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Well, today is a really ⁓ special podcast because I think ⁓ we are going to reintroduce you, I think, to our listeners, which I think is our listeners have been asking for that. We've been having a number of episodes and they're like, wait, can you remind me who are you guys? And actually, why should I be listening to you? And we said, OK, well, you know. Fair enough, we can step back and reintroduce ourselves, especially as we're gonna launch officially quite soon. So ⁓ that's the spirit of this one. And I can't believe I get to interview my dear friend on my birthday, so I can't imagine, ⁓ what a gift. I'm reminded of that great ⁓ Kanye West line ⁓ when he did that, was like, my presence is a present, kiss my ass. Paul Fattinger (03:44) Basically, that's all you get from me today. ⁓ Marc Winter (03:46) Yeah, exactly. That's exactly my birthday. That's how I'm feeling my birthday. Paul Fattinger (03:53) And I'm going to top this one off even. am ⁓ because I am having a really, really nice glass of ⁓ Burgundy just for you, just for you, which I, and it's quite early actually also here to be honest. I wouldn't say the sun is still shining, but it's still light out. But I thought in honor of your birthday, I can't sit here on a Friday late afternoon and not drink something amazing. Marc Winter (04:05) my god, very good. I'm deeply touched and and and you know exactly the kind of bottle I would open so thank you I'm gonna have one of those later I've been I've been coming off ⁓ seven days of partying anyway ⁓ at other friends 50th birthdays and stuff like that so yeah yeah I know so Paul Fattinger (04:21) and think of you. Yeah. I'm sure you will. Those are coming, man. Those are coming. I had one on my first... I think my first one the other week as well. It's kind of... Well, let's not... Marc Winter (04:45) Ah. So I to brake, right? Paul Fattinger (04:49) Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. you should be. we're going to do a podcast about age, I think. But okay, let's focus. There's going to be an interview about you and me, right? mean, both. So we're going to start here and then let's see how that goes. Marc Winter (04:58) Yes? Yeah. Perfect, so and I think part of the spirit of guys like us, I think we have to understand, who are the guys like us? so, ⁓ I prepared a series of questions for you. Are you ready for these? I think they won't, not, they won't go so deep, I promise. No, exactly, exactly. Otherwise we might need another co-host. But, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (05:17) I am kinda nervous actually. It's like a job interview, which I haven't done in a while. Yeah. Marc Winter (05:32) Joking aside, okay. So for those who can't visualize this handsome blonde mid-40s Austrian man I'm talking to here. ⁓ It is, okay. So Paul briefly, think if you had to describe ⁓ the man I'm looking at today, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? Paul Fattinger (05:41) It is on YouTube though, guys. That is already a deep question. going to stay very superficial. My name is Paul. I'm going to stay very superficial. I am, as I said before, 44 years old. I live in Vienna, Austria. I have three kids who are aged 11, 9, and almost 7, boy, boy, girl. I am divorced. I am single. ⁓ I don't know what I'm... Marc Winter (05:56) Start there, I can take you deeper. Paul Fattinger (06:21) what I am as a job actually, that's an interesting one. But we can talk about that too. And I I love lots of things. I love sports, love good food, good wine, good company. That's kind of my Tinder profile right now. Which I don't have, I was just kidding. Marc Winter (06:42) Keep going. All right, that's, it's a good start. ⁓ And I'm really thinking about what brings you here today. If think about someone who I'm talking to now, like why are we ⁓ chatting and what makes you feel called to have a conversation with your friend? Paul Fattinger (06:47) Okay, keep on going. that satisfactory? And what brings us here today? What brings us here today is our friendship. ⁓ First and foremost, I think, and second of all, ⁓ a deep wish that I think we both share, ⁓ that I discovered in the past year where I didn't work. I was on sabbatical for the past 12 months, basically, ⁓ and discovered that I... I was missing creativity in my life. And, ⁓ and we had this crazy idea when we sat together in a, in a beautiful restaurant in Paris and talked about every aspect of life. ⁓ during three hours where we also drank two bottles of wine and ate all the menu back and forth and kind of thought that that's actually interesting because we are at an age and at our point and the point in our life with, you know, and the privilege that we have seen. one or the other things, both in our private lives and our professional lives that we think is worth sharing. so all of these things, I think, culminated to the point where we sit here today and have been trying to get, know, have been actually working on this podcast. And this is the 14th episode that we are recording. And ⁓ now we are ready to share this with the world and a bigger audience next week. And that's kind of what got us here. lots of different, I would say. Marc Winter (08:03) Mm. Paul Fattinger (08:31) Yeah, sources. Marc Winter (08:32) Well, it's cool. mean, and agree. It's always really powerful. I think we always felt like there's a bit of a white space in terms of what we want to talk about, especially guys our age and things like that. But I think to give people a better sense of kind of your background and what you've done. You're your father. Obviously, you're DeForest. You've gone through your Tinder profile, what you love. But at the... at the cocktail party kind of notion when people want to know what you've done or what your background is, what do you say to them? Paul Fattinger (09:01) I usually really, as you see now, suck at that. ⁓ what, you know, what's the, I think the easiest part up until a year ago, I ran a really cool company called VOOM. ⁓ They do kids bikes and they're amazing kids bikes. really the best kids bike out there in the world. I got into their company, you know, about, as I said, four or five years ago, and basically took it over from, from the founders. Marc Winter (09:04) We'll draw it out. Paul Fattinger (09:29) ⁓ grew it from a 50 million turnover business to 120 million turnover business, probably going to hit even more, is going to hit even more this year. Lots of things I learned there and that's last thing I did. I don't know how I would describe myself ⁓ professionally right now. I guess the best term would probably be an entrepreneur because I'm doing lots of different things and doing some things that make money, some things that lose money, some things for fun and some things ⁓ for work, so to say. I always find it hard. When my kids ask me what I do, it's hard to describe, but that's what I'm doing right now. So that's kind of the brief. Marc Winter (10:09) So now you've got like a portfolio role, I think before that ⁓ you were CEO of this kick-ass kids bike company, which is cool, because who doesn't like to be in the kids space, right? Especially as a father of three. How was that, by the way? Just having, you know, ⁓ being in a business that your kids could actually relate to. Asking for a friend, you know? Paul Fattinger (10:21) Amazing. Yeah. man, you know, that's also when, when, when I left, actually the, biggest worry was how I would, how I would tell my kids because they loved it so much. I mean, I was myself, you know, I mean, I'm an avid biker. love bikes at one point I had, think, I don't know. It was still single digit, but high single digit amount of bikes. and, and, and then three kids and they loved it. They loved to come to the office to be able to write prototypes. And, you know, see the product that their dad works on on the streets everywhere, all at all times. And that made them very proud. So the fact when I left and I told them, they were really, really sad. They were also really worried that I was unemployed and asked me all the time and had great ideas about the new jobs I could do from being a chef, which I mean, I think is very nice that they think I can cook. ⁓ Yeah, no, I can. So. Marc Winter (11:08) you 100%. You can. I've the benefit of that. Paul Fattinger (11:20) So yeah, that was amazing. It was really cool. And it was also something, you know, as a role to run a company like this that I've always wanted to do. I mean, from the point where we got into, you I got into business school where we met 15 years ago, that was something I would have, you know, put into my, to my kind of, you ⁓ know, that at one point I would run like to run a place like this. And I did. And it was, I really loved it. I really loved Marc Winter (11:33) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I imagine that's probably one of your great professional successes, ⁓ sending to the role. ⁓ But I'm curious to hear just from us, and it's probably another podcast, but nonetheless, ⁓ what are some of your greatest lessons you've taken either from there or before that you can share? Illuminate a little bit about your philosophy of who you are. Paul Fattinger (12:06) I mean, from... I think, you know, from there, what, you know, I started basically working there at the end of 2020, beginning of 21, which was, you know, a boom time, you know, for, for, for this company who had, you know, existed back then for seven years. And, and it was COVID and everyone wanted a bike. And so we went from, you know, also being very, um, I wouldn't say cocky and arrogant, but to a sense, a certain extent, we were thinking we could take the thing. public in two years and we're going to grow like crazy and we grew like crazy through the next couple of years and we didn't have bikes and all of our problem was actually getting product. And then from one day to the other, the problem became we have too much product and demand dropped. so we really, went through a roller coaster of super fast growth to really having to readapt to new reality very, very quickly. within Marc Winter (12:52) Classic. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (13:04) time span I was there and I ran this company, I think I had basically, you know, three, four phases that you usually have in the period of 10 years. ⁓ but what stood out to me was, you know, actually at the end, you know, and we rebuilt and restructured, but at the end of the day, what really mattered is getting the right people in and, and, getting, you know, finding the right people for those roles and motivating them and getting the right spirit, culture mindset. And that's what worked and that's what's still working. all of the guys and all the team that I had put together are basically still there and rocking it. And this year was amazing. lots of the new products that we had kind of worked at for the past four years, and it takes long time actually to come up with something new, ⁓ are hitting the market now and they're great successes. And that's awesome. So it's really about the people. And that's what I... take with me and also what I miss the most to be honest is working with those guys and seeing how they rock. Marc Winter (13:59) Mm, yeah, Yeah, it's part of like those crazy cycles of business. Sometimes you want your thing and then by the time it comes to the market, you're no longer there. You just kind of hope it. It's a ⁓ weird. Paul Fattinger (14:12) You know, the funny thing is I also left my old job exactly at a point where I felt now we have a perfect team. And, and because what I did before is I was in consulting, you all of my life, really all of my professional life. I did a few consulting roles at KPMG then BCG Boston Consulting Group. Then I left, joined a smaller company, basically within that built my own team and practice together with a partner that then grew. Marc Winter (14:21) Mm. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (14:42) into a 30, 40 person team that did management consulting for larger companies, but also for mid-caps. And ⁓ we then sold it to a bigger network here in Austria where we continued to work. And I think we made some really cool and bold choices also back then in terms of team and at the point where it was really, we were thinking, now it works, because when you're building something, people leave. remember I had moments where I sat in my office thinking, damn it, know, every good person I had just quit. What do I do now? And then when you get to certain size and all the right people are there, finally, you're like, oh, this is nice. And you actually can feel it because it means less work for you. And that's where that was the moment where I got the call from, you know, the two guys of WUM and asked me to join them. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. And kind of in a similar way that happened now. So I wonder if I will ever get the chance to actually work with the team that I put together and see, see how it works when they work. Marc Winter (15:41) Well, actually, think, you know, if I had to answer, like, just drawing out some through lines here, I mean, I think in terms of who you are, I think you are no doubt a great leader. And I think you are able to rally people behind, like, something that you can see that, you know, because you're such a dogmatic and fierce, both competitor, but also I think you got a... you have a goal in mind, you just wanna go in and crush it. I mean, that's part of your Terminator nature, I think. And I think that inspires a lot of people because not a lot of people have that kind of grit and ability to wanna build. And I think that's innate inside you. Yeah, was that always the case? Paul Fattinger (16:23) Thank you, buddy. I think the great yes, ⁓ the great yes, yeah. I always, if I wanted, if I set my, you know, sights on something, I was always very determined to get there and to get shit done. I can also be very lazy though. It's a very, it's a very interesting combination. Marc Winter (16:41) And I think you, well, it's a great bit of self-awareness, but you know, I'm gonna snap us out for a sec. I remember we were once going across Morocco with a bunch of friends, and we were trying to traverse some crazy pathway, right? And like in some shitty car. it was something like this. Yeah, yeah, and at some point like this, and I remember, it became queer. Paul Fattinger (17:03) fiat punto Marc Winter (17:09) that would be beyond idiotic for us to attempt this. Like we're gonna like pierce some tires, like we're gonna be out, right? And stuck somewhere in the desert, like. And you got out of the car, you know, back then you were smoking, I remember, there another we should talk about, you know, with your little Moroccan scarf, and you just look at the path, you just start mumbling, you're like, I'm gonna come back here and just go over this motherfucker, I'm gonna get you, right? And I was like, what is this guy talking about, right? Paul Fattinger (17:34) I'm not saying it's always a great idea to be like this, you know? Marc Winter (17:34) But you had this sort of like goal. It's entirely possible. Paul Fattinger (17:41) I was also probably high. It's not like I remember any of what you just said, but I really don't. have zero recollection. Marc Winter (17:46) that Moroccan kif, you know, really. I remember it so vividly because I was just like, who is this guy, you know, just wants to come back with the bigger SUV to go over this path, because he couldn't do it over his Fiat. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (18:02) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I believe you because it very much sounds like me. It very much sounds like me. Marc Winter (18:06) Yeah, exactly. Well, okay, let's zoom back a little bit for us. So you grew up in Graz. I think you had a family, ⁓ two siblings, two parents, you know, where you... Paul Fattinger (18:18) Yeah, I mean, very quickly. mean, the oldest of three, younger sister and a younger brother, know, three and five years younger grew up in Graz in ⁓ you know, in a very, I don't know how you say this, behütet in German is in a very nice middle-class, I would say, ⁓ upbringing house in the suburbs. And, and, and, and my dad was a, you know, quite successful, you know, tax lawyer who built his own firm. And I got exposed to. Marc Winter (18:46) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (18:47) I think, you know, how you think as an entrepreneur quite early in my life, because he came home every day and, and, you know, for lunch, we always had lunch as a family, which was, I think, very particular in the sense. My mom was a stay at home mom. stayed home after she had me, which probably was because I was difficult. don't know. No, but it was the way they really split like this very old school, very, very old school. And I guess also my, my kind of upbringing was way old school, know, very, you know, you have to be good at school and behave. I didn't behave, but I was good at school, I would say. And it was a very performance-driven thing with, I think, a little bit of love for performance, but with a very strong underpinning that I felt always very secure. And I always felt that my family and parents were there for me no matter what. that's kind of in short how it went. ⁓ I left the great town of where also Arnold Schwarzenegger was born, close by, always have to say this. When I was at the age of 20, basically in the middle of my, after two years of college, I changed college to a university to study at ⁓ the university in Vienna. And ever since then with breaks in other countries like Spain, where we met or Tokyo. ⁓ And I was actually also, lived in the US for a while, for half a year and went to high school. That's a beautiful story in Ohio. Marc Winter (20:14) Like all Germans, know, actually any student, they're always shipped to the middle of the country, you know that, right? You know, it's like Oklahoma, Ohio. Paul Fattinger (20:24) Man, it was, I can tell you that the day I left and I stood at this airport in Graz and I hated my parents. Like I hated their guts for the fact that I had just graduated from high school in Austria. I was able to drive, drink, party, and actually be done with school after 12 years. And what do they do? They send me to a country where I'm not allowed to drink, not allowed to drive, and I have to go to school again. and I had to leave my girlfriend back, which also sucked. Yeah, man. I I didn't feel the... I saw the fucking freedom when I rode the school bus on my way to school because I stayed four miles out of this 10,000-soul place and I rode the school bus with every 12-year-old because everyone who was older was basically riding a car and I saw endless corn and summer wheat fields and soybean fields. I felt the freedom, buddy. I really did. Marc Winter (20:53) But we have freedom, know, how is the freedom? Paul Fattinger (21:19) But at the end of the day, it was good. It was amazing and it was a great experience. Marc Winter (21:22) What about, I'm sort of kind of reflecting a little bit about parenthood and no doubt you are, and we want to get into what it means to raise your kids a little bit, we all take things away from our parents and whether we like it or not, and are there some influences that you feel like you see yourself? Paul Fattinger (21:27) Yeah Marc Winter (21:43) taking on from your from your parents or Even your siblings that you apply today or or there's some things that you take on you're like goddamn That is exactly the thing. I swear I would never do it. I still do it Paul Fattinger (21:53) I mean, think, I don't know if you have, I'm sure, I think we talk about this. I did have those moments where I spoke to my kids and using the exact same phrases and words that my parents did when they spoke to me, especially when they get it, when they do something wrong and you are wrong, when they do something you don't like and you get angry, which is the most brutal flashback, I think. I've never felt so ashamed in my life, which means something for the things I've, you know. Marc Winter (22:16) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (22:21) For me means something, but let's get to that later. But no, in all honesty, I don't know, actually. think if you want the grit and determination, I mean, that is something that for sure, I got from both of my parents. you know, there is a part of, you know, being together as a family, eating and having dinners and that being an important, I think. Marc Winter (22:36) Clearly your dad had that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (22:48) To my mom, was, I think, a little bit her place of refuge and wholesomeness when her way of showing that she cared was providing for us and putting us around a table and putting enough food on a table, which was hard because my brother, my dad and I, we eat like, is insane. Horses, like bears is crazy. So it was really crazy. So that's kind of the first things that spring to mind. Marc Winter (22:58) Mm. Horses, right? Yeah. ⁓ Hmm, Well, let's move on. Okay, so we've got a good sense of your childhood, et cetera. Let's talk about your 20s and your 30s. When we met, you were switching career. We were in business school in Barcelona. You, I think, discovered all kinds of loves at that point in time, love for going off piste, for skipping school, for actually being... actually teaching, be honest, you are an extraordinary teacher for ⁓ a lot of people who want to learn from you, by the way. I think that's one big trend moving forward. I mean, I think you were president of how many clubs at business school? Paul Fattinger (23:53) No, I wasn't president of non, but I think it was like a VP of one only. And that was a VP of education for the consulting club. And I did lots of classes for how to crack a consulting case, which is really such a random thing. Marc Winter (24:04) That's what it was. feel like every time, yeah, that's why we call you the professor, you know, in the background. Paul Fattinger (24:08) That's why you call me the professor. And I came back doing that actually for many years to, to a Saturday and I loved it. And I still do. And it's still a big goal of mine. And you know, professor, if you listen, I know I haven't texted you in a while, but I'm going to start haunting you again and harassing you for that class. We're going to develop together because, you know, we, we said we're going to do this and I'd love to do this actually something that I really like doing to pass on thing. And I guess what we're doing right now is also kind of, know, in the same spirit. So, you know, my twenties were. Marc Winter (24:14) Yeah, yeah. Hahaha Mmm. Mmm. Paul Fattinger (24:37) You know, I went to university here in Vienna and I was in a relationship which was quite, in a sense, quite mature. We lived together and it was quite, you know, I didn't go out and party hard. think a lot of these things I kind of made up for when we met and, know, that was very clear. Yeah. Yeah. So I was very thankful to meeting you guys and getting this out of the way. ⁓ Marc Winter (24:52) That was clear. he was like you were, yeah, exactly. It was like a whole new world this kid was in. was a candy shop. Paul Fattinger (25:04) And after that I joined BCG really and I met my then future wife and now ex-wife there. Marc Winter (25:13) I was about to say, because business school, you met a lot of loves, you know, your friends and your wife. Paul Fattinger (25:16) Yeah, and that was, you know, one of the, you know, probably the biggest thing that happened to me when I was in Barcelona, who then moved to Italy and had lived in London and then moved to ⁓ Vienna to live, you know, with me and, you know, build a life together, which we did, and also got married a few years later only and then had very quickly had our first son and then two more. And, you know, so yeah, Barcelona was really, if you want, one of the key pivotal times of my life, I'd say. Yeah. Marc Winter (25:54) Yeah, connects to new friends, a job, a wife. I think that's pretty good ROI. Paul Fattinger (25:59) Yeah, it was pretty okay. It was pretty okay. I can't complain. It was an amazing time. probably, you I don't want to say best time of my life, but really in terms of no worries. It's not bad. Not the best place to be. Marc Winter (26:04) Yeah, yeah. No, and you're, you know, I'm gonna go there ⁓ for our listeners a little bit, because I mean, I think you, you your journey of marriage and therefore, and divorce is I think actually, and some of the lessons learned and what you've done, I think is actually, you know, an important thing to, for A, for our listeners to be aware of, because I think also you bring a lot of that into your. to our conversation because it's not just the act of divorce, it's gonna be a very personal thing, but all the work you've done, I think also on yourself and others afterwards, not that anything was wrong with you, but just to do a bit of the sense making and carving yourself a path forward, which I actually always found admirable and candidly inspirational because I think very few people would... go on that path and I thought you should talk a little bit about it if you don't mind. Paul Fattinger (27:11) I don't mind. I always say jokingly that I, you know, the things I do, I do them right. And I did my midlife crisis right too. And I checked all the boxes. I bought myself a stupid car and so on and so on and so on. So that's kind of the funny way to talk about it. Stereotypical. was like, it's really like if you want to write a book or a checklist. Marc Winter (27:24) Ha It's like stereotypical, like midlife checklist. Yeah, you really. Paul Fattinger (27:38) I'm like, you Marc Winter (27:39) I agree. It's like someone handed you a manual and you're like, this is great. Let me just, every box. Paul Fattinger (27:42) And I just, this is great. Let me just take off every box, you know, put it to the max and let's go for fucking do it. You know, I'm so I don't have to come back to that road to climb it with a bigger SUV. I had the biggest SUV. Yeah. I had the biggest SUV. And I think, and, and, frankly, I really, I really lost myself there. or I had lost myself there. And, and, and, know, in hindsight, I think what got me there is that. Marc Winter (27:54) Yeah, you had the biggest. Exactly. OK. Paul Fattinger (28:10) By the end of my 30s, I had pretty much achieved everything that I had thought my goals were, which were strikingly ⁓ similar in terms of life, how the life looks as my parents were. So I was a senior partner at a big consulting firm. I had three kids. I was married. We had a beautiful home. ⁓ I was actually quite... also successful entrepreneurially. had invested in a few companies that did really well, started up investments. everything looked great. I think, and then I didn't realize it, that it was happening like this, but I guess somewhere inside I felt still very empty and that something was missing. And that led me to act out in different ways, checking all those boxes, which in the end also led to the divorce. I mean, don't. divorce never happens just because of one person. usually happens because, you know, a relationship between two people don't work and not about assigning blame or not taking it. I mean, I take a lot of that, but in the end it didn't work out. and also while that happened, I had already started looking for, for help because I, it was almost like an out of body experience that you're going through something and you realize your rational mind kind of realized what's going on there. It doesn't make sense. But there is such a strong drive and urge somehow to almost destroy the things around you and you're trying to stop yourself, but you really can't. And that's what happened is when I started looking for help and I talked to you, I did so many different forms of therapy, coachings, things that is, I mean, can write a book about all of this, right? Marc Winter (29:50) I mean, you probably should. I feel like, you know, since Vienna is sort of like the source code anyway of psychotherapy, know, exactly between, you know, Jung and Freud, you know, plus all the schools that spawn over it's a perfect place to do the round. Paul Fattinger (29:57) It's true. It's true. It's true. Yeah. Yes. And I was also in another relationship for quite a while and tried making that work, ⁓ which we also didn't make that work. I wouldn't say also didn't make that work, ⁓ that didn't work, period. ⁓ And it was quite a challenging time. in the meantime, I ran this company we talked about before, Womb, through all of these things. And privately, was going through that, know, divorcing, how do you handle this with kids? How do you handle, you know, kids in a new partnership and the expectations that come with a new partnership and so on. So I think I was really at the verge of burning out for a very long time, ⁓ up until probably, you know, a year and a half, two years ago. ⁓ And when I got myself out of this through a lot of hard work, as you said. Marc Winter (31:03) Yeah, think, you know, as it's pretty fair. mean, I think like, you know, the way I would describe it, I remember there was a time where, you know, you were in such a pressure cooker, but at some point, like, you know, you're kind of in a truck and you see a wall, and you could turn right or you can turn left, but you're just gonna like, like keep going right and you might and Paul Fattinger (31:05) I don't know if that's a fair summary, but trying. Marc Winter (31:30) until you were forced to make a decision. I think it was a ⁓ not a good time to be your friend, but I I saw how much you were caring might be the right way of putting it. And what you did afterwards, I think how you once you've made your choices and what you've been working on is also quite interesting because you've also been doing everything from ⁓ going on wide large trips all by yourself, learning how to be at peace, but with yourself, trying all kinds of other methodologies to kind of open your mind and explore. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, that's, which is, which is pretty amazing, right? I mean, that's a journey of going on completeness and self discovery that, you know, and I mean, this is the highest compliment I think most won't do, wouldn't do. And you saw there was a puzzle to complete. Paul Fattinger (32:04) taking mushrooms, do whatever, know, all the things. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. mean, you know, it's it's ⁓ there's a few things right to take away from this or that I do. one is that a lot of people and you've asked me to and we talked about this before we did this interview that do you regret anything? and of course you do. Right. I mean, everyone does. I try not to because I don't think it makes sense. And in the end, I wouldn't be the person I am right now if And any of this hadn't happened the way it had happened. And it has. And I'm very happy with who I am today and very proud about those learnings. Do I wish sometimes that, you know, Paul sitting here today could talk to Paul five years ago? Absolutely. 100%. Would Paul five years ago have listened? Absolutely not. It wouldn't have made a fucking difference, you know, because, yeah, this dude was on the mission, right? This was a destruction mission. So, ⁓ Marc Winter (33:13) At least you have that self-awareness. Paul Fattinger (33:19) So that's one thing. And I think I've always been a person that has seen any type of change as a huge opportunity. You know, for myself, and it's true for work life, but it's also true for myself. And I think my past five years have cemented this, you know, kind of philosophy that everything that happens to you is an opportunity. if you, in is us, you know, our responsibility to just take it and make the best out of it and period. And that's what we're here for. And every day is a new opportunity to do something different. And looking back is great for learning, but it's not great for lingering. It doesn't make you happier to look in the past. And I find that when you have things that you have done in the past that you're not proud of and you don't want to look there, ⁓ it sometimes even makes it easier not to look there anymore and to kind of follow that. Marc Winter (34:02) Hell no. Paul Fattinger (34:14) kind of follow that philosophy because looking back hurts so much that actually the only choice you have is looking forward. And that to me made that whole stance towards life so much more clear because there is only one way and that's forward because you can't go back and going back just means pain. And so let's not go there and let's just try to make things better. And it obviously changed my relationship to my kids, to my work, to friendship, to every aspect of my life completely. Completely. mean, that's another, and we've talked about it in past podcasts actually, how it did. And so I'm ⁓ in a strange way, very thankful for it. And I think found an arrangement also how things work now in my life, the way I see my kids and the way I, know, the relationships I have with, you know, the people that are important in my life that work for me. So I'm happy about Marc Winter (34:42) Yeah. Yeah, and by the way, I hope you're aware, it's a privilege to take that perspective, given what a lot of people who go through all that, and that's just something that is a compliment, ⁓ not a privilege in the sense of, you had the means to go on that journey, not at all, it just means that think most aren't blessed enough to have that kind of perspective of kind of. drawing the real lessons of pain and hardship and feeling gratitude because it's made you better, you know, and feeling for that. Paul Fattinger (35:39) Yeah, but it is also privilege. mean, let's face it, right? I mean, I've ever, ⁓ I'm gonna make an episode about this too. You know, a privilege that I, yeah, I had not the means, but I also had, I think the awareness and yeah, I guess the means and the type of life that I was able to look at this like this. think other people might not have had and I did. But again, I think also privilege comes with responsibility and you have to make the best out of it. It's coming back to the same thing. Marc Winter (35:43) That too. Sure, yeah, of course. Totally. You know, on the time travel front is kind of fun. I'm just curious, like, you know, okay, there's the traveling back from five years ago to advise yourself. Is there another time that you would love to go back and not change a path per se, but relive or a moment just trying to give our listeners a sense of what makes you really happy? yeah. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (36:26) I mean, right now as we're talking, I would say Barcelona again. And I would actually like to remember these Morocco things because that's one of the trips I don't have any recollection of, but that might have something to do with other things we did. Marc Winter (36:41) The amount of stuff you were, yeah exactly. the quality is quite high there. Paul Fattinger (36:46) No, it was amazing. It was really fun. No, not really actually. mean, yeah. No, it's not true. I think those years, my late thirties. And I think that's part of the reason why we're also doing this here today. My late thirties, ⁓ when I worked the hardest ever in my, that's not true. Maybe also in my forties with Wombat, where I felt so much pressure professionally to build this company and to build this team. and to find clients and to find employees and where we had small kids, which we're all, everyone who has small kids knows what that means. It means you don't sleep. You don't really interact with your wife anymore, apart from, you know, who changes the diapers and who has to get up. And then you have three kids under five, which is also quite a challenge. ⁓ So that time, I wish I would have had the perspective ⁓ Marc Winter (37:34) bananas. Paul Fattinger (37:42) you know, that I have now. And that is basically that it's not possible. And I very deeply believe that it is not possible to have everything in life and at the same time. the grass is always greener. that was always, which also drove me to a lot of successes, but in the end also drove me against the wall. And what I've learned today is that there is a phase for everything in life, but I maybe by some, you know, coincidence of the universe at one point in your life, everything might be perfect for a split second, right? But then it's going to fall apart anyway. So, you know, what I'm trying to say is like in your thirties, you're trying to have everything you're trying to have the family, the job, the house, the vacations, the watches, the, know, whatever else to wines out of stupid shit you come up with. which actually doesn't matter because you could, you know, do the wines five years from now. would still be great in there. It's by the same watch as 10 years later. It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter. And right now, for example, know right now to me is maybe not the time where I go and ⁓ run a huge company unless really all the stars align because I would like to have more freedom and be there for my kids because I can tell you for sure that by the time I'm 50, they are not really going to be there anymore because they're going to be 17, 15 and 13 and gonna basically ask me for my credit card and that's it. that's kind of, you and I'm back to, I would like to tell this to Paul when he was 36, knowing that he wouldn't have fucking listened, which I'm not a hundred percent true, but that's hypothetical anyways. Marc Winter (39:06) Yeah, yeah, You know, I'm struck by this line. Mm. Mm. You know what's the line that I heard recently? It was this comedian, Bob Odenkirk. I think he was on Better Call Saul, or he was the lawyer. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (39:30) Hmm. ⁓ man, I love this guy. just actually what did I see where he was ⁓ on the bear? He's also kind of the guy who is who is I think, you know, the mom's boyfriend or something. He's so good. Marc Winter (39:38) Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, Yeah, that's right, that's right. And you know, you know what he asked? He had this little line. He's like, you you know who I envy most? She's like, no. And he's like, I envy anyone who still has their kids running around their house. And I was like, shit. that's a good reminder, even though it got kicked in the face again this morning to cherish it because. You can see he was, was, the envy, you know, of the wanting to hear those voices and encouraging us all to slow down and cherish, you know. Hard to do, little fuckers. Paul Fattinger (40:13) Yeah, exactly. And in a sense, that's why I'm blessed for all the things that happened, because maybe I wouldn't have realized that. Maybe I would have realized that too late. at least now that I, because what happens, you know, when you then only see your kids every two weeks for a few days, is that you really focus on them more and you kind of, you know, start thinking about this in a different way. And that was to me a blessing, you know? So I could have also been 50 and, Marc Winter (40:23) Mm. That's cool. Paul Fattinger (40:42) then figure out, damn it, now I missed this. But I didn't, so that's good. Marc Winter (40:46) Okay, well listen, I wanna loop into some fun stuff because we could go deeper in the kids. because we're almost at time and yeah. So if you can invite me, if someone's lucky enough to be your dinner date, who are you taking them? Share with us a little bit your taste. Paul Fattinger (40:49) Yeah. Here we are. ⁓ that's an interesting one. ⁓ So I think... No, I know. it's places you and I have been to for a long time. If we lived in Paris, I would take them to, well, I never remembered the name of Clamado. In Vienna, I would take you to Mast, which is one of my absolute favorite places. It's a beautiful kind of wine bar, which is not a wine bar like, you know, the other place we went to the other day in New York. It's just a wine bar, but actually it's a great restaurant. Marc Winter (41:19) clamado? Yeah, cloud, Claude, it's actually, it's a really amazing restaurant. Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (41:35) Yeah, it's a great recipe, but has small plates, little bit shareable, beautiful wine list of stuff that is not, you know, your regular stuff run by two guys who are actually sommeliers and are just super nice. And I actually haven't been there for a long time. need to go. That would be one thing. I think that would be the place. Yeah. Marc Winter (41:54) You know, listeners slide into Paul's DMs exactly. So like, take me. Good. Paul Fattinger (41:59) Now, you know what I saw on Instagram the other day, restaurant in Vienna we need to go to as well, which is new and it's like super, I think it's a two-star place, which is a once-in-a-lifetime kind of place where the guys only cook over open fire. No gas, no electricity. Crazy. Super cool. Yeah. Marc Winter (42:15) One of those like the bass guys. Yeah. Yeah, cool. I want to go there You know, I'm gonna come come visit you during Christmas time. I decided it's kind of good. Yeah, Is there anything else do you want to add like to us about You know, I think we've I think we did a good job I think you know Good good portraits Paul Fattinger (42:23) Yeah, exactly. should come. No, no. I think we did a pretty decent job. I guess you guys have just to listen to all of the episodes we're gonna, we have done already and will do to find out what, if we have anything more to say and to add to the conversation than we did just now. Marc Winter (42:49) Ha ha ha ha ha! No, but I think ⁓ from what it's worth, the outside in, you get to tell your own story, but as your friend, can say, ⁓ it's always interesting. We were talking about how when we first met and to where we are now, it's like 80-20. We're 80 % the same and 20 % different. And there's ⁓ the grit, there's the builder in you, there's the... I mean, you're pretty fucking funny too. I mean, you have the humor of ⁓ a blunt instrument sometimes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not the most subtle, you know. I'm more crass. No, yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (43:24) Yeah, sometimes I am very blunt. I am not subtle at all. no, subtleness is not a thing that anyone would connect with me. Other than the opposite. What is the opposite of Paul? Subtleness. Marc Winter (43:36) Yeah, like, you your opinions, your opinions are about, yeah, exactly. You're like an elephant on ice sometimes, you know, the way you kind of move around with your fits. But I think that's part of your charm, you know. Paul Fattinger (43:46) Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'd like to think that. At least I'm telling myself that. Marc Winter (43:52) Yeah, so, yeah, but that's always been true. I think the evolution and of a, know, like both going what you've gone through both professionally and personally and then also being, you know, the journey to distill that into something useful for us, I think is awesome and something we all benefit from. Paul Fattinger (44:11) Yeah. Well, thank you, man. And I'm really excited to do this with you. And I'm really thankful that you took the time on your birthday to actually listen to my shit again. Yeah. Marc Winter (44:19) Listen, this was a real birthday gift. I actually really enjoyed it. It's really, it was awesome. It was not like we get to hang and now I'm reminded that I actually like hanging out with you. great. Paul Fattinger (44:29) Thank you, buddy. And to all of our listeners, stay tuned and just listen to... We don't know yet what we're going to do, but next episode, that we are, you know, where I'm going to speak to Mark and who is, you know, who is the guy who has just interviewed me and the other guy like us. So stay tuned. And I guess maybe at the end of this, we might also do a Terminator and Idiot of the Week or not. We will see. Happy birthday, buddy, again. Thank you. Marc Winter (44:55) Thank you. Appreciate it. Paul Fattinger (44:56) Talk to you soon. Ciao. Marc Winter (44:57) Ciao. Paul Fattinger (45:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us on episode, the part B of the, let's interview each other episode and let's get to exactly part M. I don't know. Maybe it's part A. We don't know how we're going to bring it into circulation yet. Um, but, you know, without, there's no priority in A and B. A and B are exactly the same. This is about Mark today. So I have the, the joy of interviewing Mark. Marc Winter (45:12) Part B. That's true. Paul Fattinger (45:31) and trying to paint a picture maybe together that people get to know you a little bit better. So my first question to you, Mark, when you're ready, is a very simple one. Just tell me a little bit in our listeners about yourself. mean, who's sitting across from me right now, six hours away in New York, some demographics, age, what do you do, know, kids, no kids, married, no marriage. Just give me a quick... Marc Winter (45:39) I'm excited. Paul Fattinger (45:59) No, just a quick rap sheet of Mark, know, not the history, just who is there right now. Marc Winter (46:03) Okay, well right now ⁓ I'll lead with this. I'm a father of two, four year olds and ⁓ a one year old. I'm a husband to a lovely wife from Germany. Two boys, thank you for that. yeah, yeah. Very lively. Paul Fattinger (46:21) boys you guys have just to yeah yeah yeah very lively very cute like I might add I can say that you know Marc Winter (46:30) Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're legit cute. I can add my wife to thank for that. It's all atomic. Um, yeah. And, um, you know, I think, uh, I am a 40, I'm going to be 45 in a week and a half time. um, and, um, October it's okay. doesn't mean, no, it's October 17th next Friday. Yeah. So, um, Paul Fattinger (46:34) They are. absolutely. do like many other things, but that's a different topic. Yeah. Jesus, when's your, we don't say this here, but okay, weekend, 17. Marc Winter (46:58) You are meeting ⁓ someone who is, I think, ⁓ career-wise, I'm very bluntly, I'm a partner, venture partner at a little boutique management consultancy called SY Partners, as of now. And ⁓ it's a firm that works with CEOs, their leadership teams, in times of great change, to help them figure out ⁓ where they are, where they want to go, and how to fill the gaps in between. And you've seen some of that work, but what makes it a little bit different, I think, than like boring traditional consulting with respect to that is, yeah, no, it's, yeah, yours is probably more useful, but mine's certainly more creative. At least we can agree on that, yeah. So using design, you know, I play a lot in films, you know, and picking. Paul Fattinger (47:34) Thank you. As I've done this for a long time. But go ahead, go ahead. What? no. Yeah, that's true. Marc Winter (47:52) deeply about storytelling, one thing I don't do is touch Excel spreadsheets to make everything clear. So I think really tightly. Paul Fattinger (47:58) What, you know, for our European listeners, maybe, you know, who are not used to this kind of bullshit bingo. What is a venture partner actually do? What does that mean? What do you do? Marc Winter (48:06) Yeah. So I'm asking myself that very question on a day-to-day basis. ⁓ Well, OK. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's totally fair. No, it's totally fair. No, think my responsibilities are to find new, develop new offerings, new markets, find signals of like, we should be playing in this space. AI, for example, would be one of those just to make it very real for others. Like, how does a firm that traditionally does storytelling make itself relevant? Paul Fattinger (48:14) Okay, maybe we'll cut that out, but in case we don't. Marc Winter (48:38) you know, in that kind of space. so, you know, like who we've worked with for our listeners, you know, it's a little bit of like the Hollywood of American business, you know, like big names, big companies you would know, and you know, the founders even worked tightly with Steve Jobs, that kind of thing. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (48:55) Starbucks, like a famous one. I remember you telling me and it's quite publicized. yeah, so really the big names and you also find new business and clients for your firm, right? You are the tip of the spear out there to sell the product in a sense. Marc Winter (49:07) Yes, so. Thank you for that. Yes. So the leading piece is, you know, I read business development or read that for a while now. I just take those networking skills and now try to find that new. And the nice thing about it is that, you know, I would say, I say this humbly, but one of my superpowers would be in relationship making and skills. And I really get a charge out of meeting people, surfacing new ideas, connecting people. And so, I feel that ⁓ it's, you know, in a world where so much is being automated, human connection and the skill set on building relationships hopefully, you know, won't be replaced. And that's something I happen to major on. Paul Fattinger (49:54) Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. also, maybe I can add some color to that because it was difficult, I think, to talk about oneself. But I remember because I was, as in traditional consulting, the stuff you always did and the things you created for your clients looked so beautiful and they were so inspiring. And I always thought that's really cool that you, you know, you work on solving a business problem with a lot of design and creativity inputs that, as you said, you don't have to, you know, do a touch a spreadsheet to touch minds. Maybe you have to do that for a CFO, but for the rest of the organization, think it's probably easier without the spreadsheet. In fact. Marc Winter (50:29) Yeah, it's probably true. Yeah, I mean, I think you said a great word, which is beauty. And I think that's also, I've been at this firm for a long time and I was always fascinated that it could bring beauty into business really powerfully. the magic of a new idea being shared, but shared not just verbally, but shared with... incredible imagery or story, you know, that really brings these things to life. So that's a lot of what I do. And it's, I feel like, you know, it's a practice that that's much needed in organizations. I wish we all had great designers ⁓ working alongside us. That would be when we get famous, you know, that's, that's my first hire. There'll be, there'll be an EA and then a designer just like, can you sketch it? Yeah. Paul Fattinger (51:09) That's true. No, it is true. Absolutely true. Yeah, I kick ass. I fully agree with you. And I mean, this job also for completeness sake brought you a lot to Europe. You also had European clients, this is where we met a lot also in the past years, Paris, Germany, and so on. you've tried to sell that internationally, successfully. I guess that was also always a bit, you know, did the business really drive you there or did you want to go there and sell? I mean, what was first? Marc Winter (51:27) Yes. Yeah, yeah, That's right. Portugal, yes, the Netherlands, yeah, yeah, yeah, actually. Yeah, amazingly successfully. Paul Fattinger (51:44) dead. Marc Winter (51:45) Yeah, no, it's a great question. mean, and actually it's, it is, it's kind of relevant to who I am. So, you know, my parents come from Europe. So my mother comes from Portugal. My father comes from Germany and you know, they came to the States in the mid 20s, you know, my dad in his 20s, my mom much a little bit earlier, but they met, you know, in the university and had me much later. So I kind of grew up in a European culture mindset. you know, as you my parents were struggling or trying to figure out what it means to live and build a life in the US, you know, you know, I kind of grew up between both worlds. And my dad, you know, found a kind of sweet spot for himself. He's also quite skilled. But now that I think about it in relationship making, it's funny back to your patterns, you know, how we follow our father's more in more ways consciously or unconsciously. But he, you know, he was a long time at Deutsche Bank. and down on Wall Street, which meant that he was always going back and forth between Europe and the US and wherever all around the world and building relationships, connecting people, similar idea actually. ⁓ Less with ideas and more with money and cash, but nonetheless. ⁓ similar pattern. Yeah, yeah. And so ⁓ it always felt natural for me to bring ideas or connect with. Paul Fattinger (52:52) Mm-hmm. Nonetheless, yeah, but it's a similar expression of a talent, actually. Yeah. Marc Winter (53:08) with others ⁓ abroad and obviously going to business school in Barcelona helps with your network. Paul Fattinger (53:14) Yeah, that's sick. That's that was my next question. How do you become that? That sounds like a pretty awesome job because if I summarize it is like you, you you fly around and you tell some great stories to people. You show them beautiful things and then they buy your services. Correct. Right. So that's kind of, know this is the Disney, the Disney world. Marc Winter (53:29) Yeah, that's delivered with the Austrian bluntness of a ⁓ sledgehammer. But ⁓ that's one way to talk about it. Yeah, mean, it's. Paul Fattinger (53:37) That's an awesome job. think, you you could say from the outside, many people would be happy. Fair enough. How did you become this professionally? I mean, you said you've done it for a long time, correct? Marc Winter (53:43) No, I have a very, been blessed, a very, very cool job. Very, very cool. Yeah, by accident. It's just true. And I think I owe. Paul Fattinger (54:00) But for context, you've done it since the NBA, which has been what we graduated in 2011, 14 years, almost 15. Yeah. That's nuts. Okay. Marc Winter (54:03) Yeah, 15 years, 14 years, yeah, crazy, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, you have a lot of careers, right, in one place, you know, but, this first, like, first you have to become good at strategy, then you have to, you know, like the actual practice, understand it. But I think, you know, I always had, ⁓ what do they say in German, the fingerspitze kuffe, you know, you have this little, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (54:16) Fair enough. Marc Winter (54:31) lightness of reading a room of, you like that. No, did not. Definitely not. It's one of my few catchphrases I have on demand. I think, think like, you know, you, I always knew I was good with people and I always knew I was creative and had good stories and ideas and could think on the spot. And then the intersection of those two, I didn't know that, you know, there'd be a Paul Fattinger (54:35) I'm impressed to be looked at up before the interview. Marc Winter (54:59) Consultancy that did anything like this. I think I found that by luck an old Actually someone who went to our business school and you know come to a side a offering an internship I applied thinking was something else than it actually was and then I got in and I said, oh I did. Yeah Yeah, no, no, I was I was here in New York. Yeah and Paul Fattinger (55:15) Did you actually get the internship? I remember that. ⁓ Marc Winter (55:23) I was fascinated by, by, you know, the intersection of design and business. know that you could be creative inside of business, you know, I always thought, you know, and I was always gravitating, gravitating towards marketing because, or, you know, some type of brand work, because I liked storytelling in that way. And I was like, wait a second, like, you know, that's only one part of the story. Those skills are actually CEO skills, you know, telling great stories, thinking, thinking about the future, enrolling others behind something you want to build. Paul Fattinger (55:30) Mm. Absolutely. Marc Winter (55:51) And ⁓ it's actually the ultimate active design. And so ⁓ that is what drew me in. And that's. Paul Fattinger (56:01) Yeah. And if I may ask, if you think of that, those almost 15 years, is there anything you are particularly proud of that you did or anything that felt particularly hard to achieve or to overcome in that time? And it's a long period of time, but did I ask you, is there anything that springs to your mind? Marc Winter (56:21) Yeah, so I think there, I'll give two moments. The first is an easy one. It's like the moment that people you coach and have been with and mentor get promoted. And that's one of like, that's applicable anywhere. Like I think that's always feels great. On a professional front, I think, you you were talking your story about pulling all nighters, et cetera. But there's a moment when you realize, wait a second, I'm actually good at this. Like I did something that was amazing. Like, you know, like, wow. Paul Fattinger (56:33) Hmm, nice, very nice. Hmm. Marc Winter (56:48) And that came for me maybe six years into my journey when I was working loads of nights out in Tokyo and building relationships there for a big IBM project. And 8,000 Japanese IBMers were there going through my exercises, my slides, et cetera, leading with the transformation. ⁓ I said, wait a second, did I just help pull this off? Paul Fattinger (57:07) you Marc Winter (57:14) Okay, like I can do some, if I can do this, then I can do something else. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (57:18) I remember that project. I just feel a bit old and how long this has been. It's crazy. It's it was yesterday. But anyways, okay, let's not get too melancholic here. Sentimental. All right. Marc Winter (57:24) Crazy. No, but I think like the new ones, would say like in business development and stuff, I actually think the biggest charge you get is when you, for me is, ⁓ when you take a real big leader who is paid to know everything and you walk into a room and you share something they hadn't thought of and they're just delighted. that's an, I mean, it doesn't mean that I'm smarter than I'm not, but it's just, I have some useful way of thinking about the world. Paul Fattinger (57:55) That's the beauty of external perspective, right? Marc Winter (57:57) Yeah, but ⁓ of a view of looking at the world, that is enlightening to them and they want to learn more about. Paul Fattinger (58:04) But you are, however, now ⁓ not telling your full story because I know that as a sidekick that might not be paid yet, you also do other things like you write scripts. You wrote a script for a TV series that I actually read as one of the few people I did at least two pages. Yes. Marc Winter (58:15) Yes. Yes. Did you really? Exactly. Okay. Yes. Yes. Paul Fattinger (58:27) You are so you write, which is totally fascinating to me, because as much as I love to write stories, I could never imagine how you would even start. So you wrote tell us about this writing scripts thing. Marc Winter (58:38) Yeah. So, and I'm gonna tell that story by going back a little bit younger as a kid. So I think ⁓ I always, like I love, I a bookworm, I always loved reading books. And I think ⁓ I'll give my dad credit. I remember in ⁓ second grade, let's call it, you get these writing exercises in school. Paul Fattinger (58:44) Go ahead. Marc Winter (59:02) and they kind of give you a prompt, know, like the dinosaur, and then they give you a bunch of lines and you have to like write a sentence. And I struggled with this as hell. was like, why, tell me what I should write down, you know? And then my dad's like, no, you can say anything. Like the dinosaur was on the ship, the dinosaur went to the moon, the dinosaur farted, whatever, right? And I started to practice, and it's somehow that unlocked a whole... Paul Fattinger (59:12) Mm-hmm. Marc Winter (59:27) load of imagination, that little exercise of just unlimited possibility. And I was just writing, I think six, seven, and I was just writing nonstop, like funny, the dinosaur blank, the dinosaur blank, you know, and there was some, I was just laughing because I was just visualizing it all. And I just fell in love with that bit of pushing your imagination and putting forward. you know, yeah, I was writing, I was writing. Paul Fattinger (59:32) Do you remember how old you were? And did that continue through school and high school as well? Marc Winter (59:55) plays in high school. was an actor in high school. I wrote and produced some plays. I was always in love with films and just art forms and in different ways of telling stories. was in love with it. And I was even, God, now I'm really gonna out myself. So when I went to university, went to... ⁓ Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, which is most famous for medical school and everyone I guess knows from COVID and stuff. But they had a random, weirdly one of the best creative writing programs in the country. that's why I wanted to go there. And I learned. Paul Fattinger (1:00:26) Yeah. Yeah. Because you wanted to be like, take us back when you were like 16, 17, you wanted to be a writer or, and what did your parents say? I mean, your dad being a banker, but they also didn't keep you from doing it. And obviously paid. Marc Winter (1:00:40) just wanted to be a writer. Yeah. I was like... They thought that was a terrible fucking idea. No, I mean, they knew that I had a creative streak, like ⁓ they felt like, you know, I should do like go to business, go on Wall Street, like join the country club, you know, which is like, yeah, which is like a normal thing. Yeah, yeah, that shit. Yeah, yeah, I mean, so much so that, you know, I applied to NYU. Paul Fattinger (1:01:03) Yeah, like your dad did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Move into the house next door in Morristown. Make babies and shit like that. Yeah. Marc Winter (1:01:16) film school, Tish, and I got in, which is like kind of a big deal back then, you know, and they even offered a scholarship. I was like, you're not going there. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (1:01:24) Really? That would have been instead of John Hopkins. Marc Winter (1:01:27) Yeah, which is the right decision. I mean, I understand her and I really benefited from education. ⁓ You know, there's such a premium and talk, you know, and when you're in high school about where you go to university, everyone like thinks it's that kind of thing. But ⁓ it was a decision. But look, you know, I still found a way to be creative because I was a major in it creative writing, which is hilarious. They can actually do that at Hopkins. But, you know, it really forced you to write and put down points of view and create. Paul Fattinger (1:01:41) Mm. Marc Winter (1:01:55) different stories and narratives and just be generative. And then I was in the storytelling business, because my first job funny enough was with Bertelsmann and for Random House, this big publishing company. And the very first book I worked on was The Da Vinci Code, which is like a big seller. You probably know, you heard of it, right, Paul? Yeah, no one did, exactly. Everyone's read that thing. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (1:02:17) Never heard of it. Of course I read it, I loved it. mean, yeah. Marc Winter (1:02:23) So, know, I mean, like I was always, and then I was also in the film industry. I worked on this film called Moneyball. So I was always liked it. And then, you know, life gets in the way. You want to travel, you want to build businesses, you want to go to make money, et cetera. And then I reset myself during COVID. said, hey, if you're not gonna, it's now or never to write things. And I've had friends in Hollywood and stuff. said, you know, they can help you. So. Paul Fattinger (1:02:45) And what did you write? Marc Winter (1:02:46) So my first was a ⁓ existential comedy and it was called Heaven Hoppers. And the idea was that, it asked the question, what would a world look like if everyone wins when they die? That is like the Christians go to the Christian heaven, the Muslims go to the Muslim heaven, they choose. But you go to your own individual version of that. So you you end up where you believe. And ⁓ the joke is, well, what happens if you believe in nothing? And you are, in this world, forever doomed or blessed to go travel to everyone else's heavens, but you can never have a heaven of your own. And those are the characters called heaven hoppers. And ⁓ you're laughing. Paul Fattinger (1:03:35) Alright, that was one. The other one was about like some Roman soldiers or something. What was that? That was that. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Marc Winter (1:03:39) No, that was it. You just read the first two pages of that. And then the second, now I'm calling you out. He's like, what the fuck is this? Well, those are my characters, because I thought Elysium is the best heaven. then the second one, yeah, the second one is actually, it's now a movie for this producer, but it's a horror comedy of an offsite going terribly, terribly wrong. Paul Fattinger (1:03:48) The second one was exactly, exactly, is about this offside, right? Marc Winter (1:04:05) and no doubt I've facilitated and designed many of those. So I'm gonna make it as relevant. Paul Fattinger (1:04:09) And if someone came now, and I know you've been in discussions about this, but maybe you know someone who listens to this and would come up now to you and say, Mark, this script is fantastic. Let's make this a movie. And by the way, I want you to write the next one. Would you drop everything you are doing right now and go full on into this career? Marc Winter (1:04:15) yeah. ⁓ I mean, I would very much lean into it, obviously, I've been an idiot, because like, mean, who doesn't want your art to go into it? But I think of, like, I think the future, and maybe because I've been in consulting so long, like, you you hold, you work on so many different things at once, I actually believe in a portfolio lifestyle. I've got a lot of fulfillment for my job, you know, I feel, I don't feel like I'm working a job. Paul Fattinger (1:04:53) Hmm? You need to go live and something. Marc Winter (1:04:56) Yeah, well I just don't feel like I'm just doing a job for money. Like I find a lot of joy out of it and it's super creative. No, no, no, Yeah, I have friends who are just pure screenwriters and you know, and he's probably, if he was this, who knows? Huh? No, no, no. I envy that they get their shit made, totally. But I don't envy their lifestyle. think it's a, writing is a lonely job. You get, you're. Paul Fattinger (1:05:01) So just doing scripts would also not be enough then on the other hand, right? You would miss something. You don't aim with them. And you don't aim with them. Fair enough, fair enough. I mean, I would know, mean, my attention span is enough for a two-liner in an email. So I'm at all. Marc Winter (1:05:22) You're by yourself. You're thinking about... Well, it won't surprise you. Well, I get a lot of my shit done on planes with glasses of wine or, you know, at night. You know. Paul Fattinger (1:05:36) Oh, fair enough. Now that's a good, yeah. I do have the romantic fantasy to sit somewhere, you know, by the sea or lake and write my memoirs and, you know, be done with it probably also in two minutes. I get the, no, no, the idea of being cut off. You know, I'm, fair enough. This is your interview. Marc Winter (1:05:48) But I promise to read the first two pages. Paul Fattinger (1:05:56) How much did you as a person, and you said it before, your parents coming from Europe and you've been around a lot, haven't just lived in the US, you were obviously in Barcelona where we met, but tell us a little bit about your international exposure. How much enrichment is that to your fantasies, your fantasy when you write things and how big of a role does that play for you? Marc Winter (1:06:17) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Massive. I think if I could travel around the world six months out of the year, I'd be so happy. I'm so curious. Yeah, yeah. I get a charge out of different cultures, seeing different things. Paul Fattinger (1:06:29) Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. Yeah. Marc Winter (1:06:38) understanding different ways of thinking about the world, et cetera. But I've also lived it. you know, I think, okay, your parents come from Europe. So obviously you spend a lot of time and you know, your holidays abroad and vacations and that kind of thing. And I probably have more. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The northern part of Portugal where my mom's from, close to the Spanish border, Plage Mons. Really beautiful there. Much more sophisticated now than when I was a kid. When I was there, it smelled like... Paul Fattinger (1:06:51) Also Portugal, actually I only knew German here but yeah, okay. Mmm. Marc Winter (1:07:06) manure and like, know, from the animals and it's like, it's really, it was, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really, you know, third world in a way. Yeah. But, ⁓ you know, I think I've moved from, know, obviously studied also in university, ⁓ abroad in Germany. And then I lived in Shanghai for two years as well. ⁓ I was one to live in Asia. So that was really important for me to get that kind of exposure Barcelona. Paul Fattinger (1:07:08) Yeah, man, I bet that must have been, yeah, was like pre-EU everything, Basic. There was also kind of in the roaring 2000s, no, of, yeah. Marc Winter (1:07:35) fucking awesome. If I could do a whole podcast and I tried to write a story about my life in Shanghai. And then I was worried that, you know, first of all, there's a little bit of that. And then I realized if this thing got published, you know, I don't think they'd let me back in the country. you know, there was a there were a bunch of characters there. ⁓ But I, you know, I feel like I've cultivated a lot of great friends all over the world and nothing gives me Paul Fattinger (1:07:42) and you couldn't remember. Ha ha ha. Marc Winter (1:08:04) more pleasure than to visit them and spend time with them and see how they live. And it's a beautiful thing. Paul Fattinger (1:08:10) So that's you lived in, obviously you grew up in New Jersey, right? Then you moved to Washington, DC, basically Baltimore. Then you in Freiburg, then you basically went to China. You came back, did a little bit of the US, New York, and then Barcelona. And from there, and then you moved back to New York and from there you traveled. So that's quite a, what's your, I mean, any... Marc Winter (1:08:13) Morristown, yeah, New Jersey, as you love to remind me. ⁓ Baltimore. Study to get a fry book in Germany. went to China after after a few years in New York. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (1:08:37) Any favorite times there? you know, very jolly memories where like this was kind of, you know, my, my perfect time. Yeah, I know. And those years of traveling or any, did you end up in a place you always wanted to end up in? did you, had you ever thought about staying in Europe, you know, with your background? Marc Winter (1:08:44) in life. Yeah, mean, sure, it's a great question. So I think, you know, everyone's got great memories. I think, but by most formative years, I would say, you know, non-professionally, as a human, definitely living in Shanghai was a big part of that. you know, different, radically different culture, something I had kind of admired, but had to understand. And you know, I think you have to call out, like, it was the boom years of Shanghai and also as a Westerner, you could do whatever the fuck you wanted. And that was insane to me. So like no rules. Yeah, it doesn't have to be about like, yeah, well. Paul Fattinger (1:09:29) I'm not going to get into this because of the PG rating of this podcast, but no, no, I get you. Marc Winter (1:09:36) Yeah, but I think it's worth calling out. I mean, there was a lot of privilege. the funny thing is, that I like to, I always like to share this. I remember I was like, you know, meeting a bunch of copywriters for this advertising company. I've had it. I told myself I could, I can stay in Asia as long as I'm not teaching English. Like I need to like put something. Yeah. Cause like, yeah. And I found that job. And then the funny thing is, you know, I'd always Chinese teaching, actually Chinese people had to be creative in advertising. It was kind of part of it, but you know, Paul Fattinger (1:09:52) Yeah, fair enough. Marc Winter (1:10:05) I was paid $35,000 a year in Chinese, which is nothing, but you could have added zero of what that went for that city at that point in time, just in terms of, yeah, that was, yeah, what you could afford and do and build. And if I'd stayed there, probably would have had a different life. But that was where it really formative, obviously, our time in Barcelona was amazing. And I think, know, New York in your 30, you know. Paul Fattinger (1:10:15) Amazing. What you could afford and do and... Marc Winter (1:10:32) 30s when you make some money and it matters less is quite a special fucking place. And ⁓ it's the magnet that keeps bringing me back. As much as I love moving everywhere, I still find it, my heart and soul is kind of the city now. Paul Fattinger (1:10:37) It was fun. I agree. Nice. You spoke about your formative years and also what formed you as a person. ⁓ One of the things, the many things, but one of the main things I really admire about you is, think, in my opinion, and from the people I know, you are one of the most balanced and connected people I know. And I experienced it firsthand in when I went through difficult times. Also, you were the ones that never judged and always asked what was happening. you have that, ⁓ yeah, you have that about you. And I was always wondering, you know, how did you, were you always like that? Did you become that? Was there an aha moment? Did something change? Or was that never a question? How, or did you, I don't know, get everything out of your system when you were in Shanghai? I don't know. But, you know, no, I don't want to insinuate, but or put any words into your mouth. Marc Winter (1:11:49) No, it's fine. It's fine. ⁓ First of all, thank you for that compliment. That's sweet. I think I know what you mean by balance, maybe. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (1:12:02) Well, just say whatever comes to your mind and we'll see if we are talking about the same thing. Marc Winter (1:12:06) No, I think like I wanted to to back up. I think the other formative years is I think also in high school, I was in high school, I feel like I made a lot of good friends and I found the value in deep value of friendship. I realized like what the power is to have people who you can share ideas with make you stronger, better, et cetera. And also just the beauty of that. is a great thing. And I've always, you know, if you take that belief and you map that with my own love of people being helpful, I think just comes really natural. But I would also say my mom is a very generous person and a generous spirit. And maybe I've learned at some of the... Paul Fattinger (1:12:50) Mm-hmm. Tell me about your mom. Marc Winter (1:12:54) She's very Portuguese, very open. My Portuguese, mean, you know, Mediterranean, you know, very hotheaded, but also deeply soulful, like this kind of classic stereotype, but extremely warmhearted and generous. And she has a lot of love to give. And I... took the other some beautiful sides of that and there's some shadow sides of that of course. ⁓ But you I think anyone who's met her like knows you just say the name Maria and everyone just gets what you mean. You know from you know cooking a meal for 50 people for when four people are at the table. Paul Fattinger (1:13:23) As for everything in life. And that inspired you or you think you modeled after that or what did that do to you? Marc Winter (1:13:42) I think it showed me a way of being with people and trusting them. My mom, for example, if you're, we live on, I grew up on a house with a lot of property. My mom brought in a lot of workers and a lot of workers were mostly Brazilians or Americans. She treated them so well. She always brought them. made sure they were fed, got them drinks, if they worked extra hard, there were a few extra beers on the table. And I said, wow, mom, and my dad would be like, you're really, they're not your family, what's going on? And she said, no, she's like, look, you want people to feel loved and cared for, right? And then they'll come back and return some of that for you. It's being good at putting good out into the universe. it was a nice philosophy, and I think I've taken some of that. Paul Fattinger (1:14:21) Okay. beautiful. And how did you experience love, know, apparently love, you know, in a sense? I mean, it was that Marc Winter (1:14:41) Yeah, it's a great one. Paul Fattinger (1:14:42) It must have been something that, you know, why am I going with this is like, because I have this feeling that you have this, you know, very strong core belief in yourself. And that usually comes from somewhere because that means someone believed in you, no matter what you did very often. I'm asking myself, was that something that you experienced or was it something that you learned? Marc Winter (1:15:05) Yeah, no, think that's the darker side, I guess. So it's something I experienced. My mother was convinced that ⁓ she had a very smart and special son, and that that smart and special son should really do big and great things. And she told me that since I was the age of four. The pressure was on, you know, and you know, I think she's happy that I found my own way. like, you know, if I were bad grades, as we were going back to your thing, you know, if I fell short, my God, I mean, she would, she would whip out the spanking, she would lock me in the room, she'd be like, you know, real discipline, like, ⁓ this was like, next level kind of thing. A lot of it is coming from love. A lot of it is like also, you know, they, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (1:15:27) you Marc Winter (1:15:55) Both my parents didn't come from wealthy backgrounds and they made their own way and they saw what it takes. Paul Fattinger (1:16:02) They also left their respective home countries because they really wanted a better future for themselves. Because that's what they were. Marc Winter (1:16:05) desk. Well, yeah, well, my mom didn't have a choice. Right. So my mom didn't really have much of a choice. I she lost her father at a young age at eight, which forced to move back, which moved from Portugal to the States where there seemed to be more opportunity. And she actually, I her story is grew up, putting in quotations, privileged or had a family of some wealth and lost it when my grandfather died and had to go through that and rebuilding herself and et cetera. And my dad was, know, Paul Fattinger (1:16:16) Okay. Hmm. Mm. Marc Winter (1:16:37) ⁓ post-World War II Germany, ⁓ middle class, not, last that, yeah, fuck that place, Ludwig Saffen, horrible, you know, so you can only go up, It's either working at BASF or going up. Paul Fattinger (1:16:46) Wow. Yeah, yeah. And decided, how old was he when he left? Okay. So really as a man, as a young man decided, I'm going to look for my fortune somewhere else. Fuck this place. Marc Winter (1:16:58) Yeah, and we had relatives here, he had an aunt here, ⁓ back in the day, and I guess in Germany, guess, post World War I, when you couldn't afford to have five kids, maybe some distant relatives might adopt them. So that's how, you know. Paul Fattinger (1:17:09) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you think that that story or their story has impacted you or had an influence on you? If any, mean. Marc Winter (1:17:22) Yeah, no, mean, significantly, think, look, their story is the American dream, I guess, in a way, you know, I mean, or what it's supposed to be, you you came, you worked hard, you found a great job, you got a house, you got a car, but they worked really hard and they let me know that they did. And they, their dedication, their drive to you know, build something. And my dad, you know, he also loves to build with his hands. So he built a deck, you know, outside the house, you know, with his hands, he looked up the map and he's like, this is you fucking do it. You know, he's like, could pay someone $20,000. I can do it with, you know, $1,000 of supplies and like, you know, I'm making it up. Paul Fattinger (1:18:06) But did you ever felt pressured by that? That, you know, we've been working so hard to give you a future and to give you a da da and yeah. Marc Winter (1:18:12) Totally, yeah, totally. But it wasn't like the full immigrant story of, they didn't put all their life savings into me. What they did was said they put their expectations onto me, and I think there's a difference. And the expectations were high. Paul Fattinger (1:18:27) Yeah. And do you feel that you have fulfilled them or who cares or what's the status? Marc Winter (1:18:34) ⁓ yeah, I think I'm glad their expectations shifted because I no, I mean. Paul Fattinger (1:18:40) ⁓ So you mean, gladly the goal post was adjusted and I just jumped high enough. It was adjusted to exactly how high you could jump. Marc Winter (1:18:48) Yeah, I mean, exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, could put it this way. he, you know, there was a, I don't have a, you know, a mansion in the Hamptons like my mom maybe envisioned, you know, back at the day or CEO of some big corporate, you know, back to our conversations around success. Yeah. But I think what she is is, I think she... Paul Fattinger (1:19:07) terrible. Marc Winter (1:19:12) doesn't fully understand what I do, but understands that it's pretty cool and it's interesting and meaningful and that I'm happy, I'm not poor, you know, and like back to your point about balance, maybe I figured something out. And ⁓ she acknowledges that and I think they do. So I think they'd be proud. But I also gave them two grandchildren to distract them. And so, know. Paul Fattinger (1:19:18) meaningful. Exactly. A year ago, think that's kind of what works the best. Because you asked me, you know, we've talked about this and you asked me this, what's different between the Mark I met on that first night on ⁓ Placida del Sol where you talked an immense amount of bullshit in my opinion and the Mark that is sitting in front of me, apart from obviously the great influence I had on you. Marc Winter (1:19:40) which is a perfect methodology to lower expectations. ⁓ Still do. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (1:20:07) But other than that, what's different? What happened in those 15 years? ⁓ Is there things in life that you look differently at? Are you still the same? Marc Winter (1:20:18) Yeah, I feel 80 % the same and 20 % different. That's a great question, actually. Paul Fattinger (1:20:23) And that's, can I just thank you for that? That's exactly where my balanced and kind of, you know, I kind of felt you were always kind of you and in place. And, know, you kind of adjusted with gravity and the movements of things, but the principles, the foundations were very, you know, there to a very large extent, which just confirmed. Marc Winter (1:20:46) No, thanks. Thanks. You know. Paul Fattinger (1:20:49) What's the 20 % though that changed? Marc Winter (1:20:52) I feel like this will shock you. Less talking and more doing. I think like, no, I like to, I figured actually time is limited. Let's put some great things out in the world. And I think my ambition is weirdly bigger. Less than like full or money, just more like, hey, like, it's a little bit like this podcast, like let's put something out in the world, you know, and see where it goes. Paul Fattinger (1:21:00) That was not shocking. I mean, what an amazing segue to my next question. When you think about this podcast, why are you doing this? What is your goal with it? Why are we still at it? And we are recording our, think, 13th, 14th, 15th episode, not counting the ones we threw away. So we are, I think, close to 20. So it's a significant investment of time already. And that with me, I mean, that's a pain. So what drives you? Marc Winter (1:21:39) It is. It is. That's a great thing. Well, look, think the root of this podcast to me is friendship. I think it's our friendship. I think, you know, it's a good model, think, for especially a lot of us have friends all over the world and this is just an amazing forcing function for two great friends to figure out to spend an hour together, you know, and talk about things that feel meaningful and important to us. ⁓ one of the main reasons. think the second is like, I think there is a ⁓ gap, I'll call it as a friend once said, like of non-toxic and actually really kind of great conversations, you know, between, guys like us who are, you know, have some wisdoms and are also trying to figure stuff out. And I think this is a great platform for us to noodle on that together. think we have a lot of shared perspective and some different ones. And how we kind of hone in and land on the thing is really beautiful for me. And I hope a lot of our listeners love the content. They love the topics and they take away something from it. Paul Fattinger (1:22:51) Nice. so that's what was coming next. So what do you who do you think should listen to us or to the things that we have to say? Marc Winter (1:22:59) ⁓ God, are you doing like an audience segmentation strategy here on this? You know, suffering? Yeah, no, look, I think those who are also reflecting on some of the most, you know, critical topics that make up our lives and either how to best do it or do you also feel the same way like Paul Fattinger (1:23:03) No, no, not at all. I'm just, you know, just a little bit of a pitch since you, yeah. Marc Winter (1:23:25) I think people who want to be part of the company would feel easily comfortable with us sharing a bottle of wine in a cafe or in a bistro would be the right kind of people to listen to us. And I think you kind of know you know, you know? Paul Fattinger (1:23:39) How did you, I wonder, yeah, I agree with you, but how did you kind of putting something like this out there, you know, that everyone can listen to at any time. And by the way, the other day I sat together with friends and I said, you know what you said this other day? it's like, I don't remember, you know, I was like, we just have no clue. It is also, you I mean, you put yourself, out there, right? So people can like it or not like it and find it embarrassing. How do you deal with that? How is that for you? Marc Winter (1:24:13) I think it's maybe actually part of the 20 % shift. think, look, it is what it is. think I feel confident in what we have to say. I mean, as we're being authentic, we're being ourselves. We're absolutely not performative, as anyone listening to us would say. But look, I think. Paul Fattinger (1:24:29) No, we actually suck at this. We actually suck at this. Marc Winter (1:24:36) We're also living kind of in the era of content creators, you know, and there's so much crap out there. so, you know, yeah, look, you know, it's better. It's better. It's better than starting an only fancy account. Paul Fattinger (1:24:42) No, I think, yeah, in the top 10 % for sure. Depends on who you are, but for us for sure. Okay. So is there anything I didn't ask which would have been a relevant question? Marc Winter (1:24:53) Yeah, that's true. Paul Fattinger (1:25:03) or anything you didn't talk about. Marc Winter (1:25:04) I think ⁓ you did a really good job of interviewing me and I hope that people feel like they got a good sense of who I am and what I love. I wish you asked me ⁓ some of my very first loves, but I'm not gonna answer that, it's for you. I'll say it for the next time. Paul Fattinger (1:25:27) It's true. didn't... No, I mean... Marc Winter (1:25:30) But I'll answer that question. I like to define people by ⁓ some of the movies that they love, or the ones that really stuck with them. And I had three that worked really well. So the first ⁓ being Star Wars, every kid loved Star Wars, that was always kind of great, et cetera. The second was, ⁓ okay. All right, well there's some element of science fiction, right? Paul Fattinger (1:25:33) Go ahead, please. I never loved Star Wars, by the way. Just saying. It was more of a Trekkie. Yeah, but here you go. Marc Winter (1:25:57) The second was Back to the Future. I just loved the idea of time and going back in a time machine, although it was the coolest thing ever. But the reason why I loved it so much also is that moment when Marty McFly or Michael J. Fox plays Johnny B. Goode for the first time. then everyone just, it's the first time they hear rock and roll. And you realize like, I was like, I wanna be that. Like there's something about that. was just the coolest, know? Like I thought that was just the greatest. Paul Fattinger (1:26:14) amazing. Yes. Yes. Marc Winter (1:26:26) thing ever. And then, and then the third was Indiana Jones, traveling around the world and going to architectural things. These are like the building blocks, I think of that formed a lot of my imagination. And, you know, the kind of characters I wanted to be, you know, a little bit of Luke Skywalker. Actually, I always want to be Han Solo, a little bit of Marty McFly. And of course, Indy, you know, those are my heroes. Paul Fattinger (1:26:49) And I think, you know, because we asked so many great questions, people would exactly have expected this, you know, from everything you said. But I agree. I, but I think it's a great, I like this segment because it reminds me now also of one thing is that, that we completely left out and we mentioned in the very beginning, you know, you've been married for, I don't know how many years now, 10? No, eight. I don't remember. Quite some time, you know, to your beautiful... Marc Winter (1:26:56) Yeah. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (1:27:16) wife Vera, you know, by the Vera, still don't get why, you know, I mean, really, I know in case you're listening, but you know, I've told you this many times. No, but then, know, it's, it's, it's such a positively. I wouldn't say uneventful, ⁓ and not boring, but something where, least, you know, in our friendship, this has always been a constant for you. And ever since I've known you, because I think you guys have known each other for 15 years, more or less, and, and she's been part of your life and you've been part of hers. and as a beautiful thing and really a relationship that, that, that I look up to a lot. And I would, you know, be curious to, to hear. what it has done for you and the importance that relationship had in your life and also in how you've lived your life in the past 15 years. Marc Winter (1:28:08) Yeah, wow, gosh. And ending with a big one. Jessica, I thought I was off the hook. Vera, I love you. ⁓ Hey, you know, I think ⁓ if I'm balanced, Vera's probably even more balanced than I am. You know, I think there's some practical, equally practical and equally wild in a way, kind of way of being. Paul Fattinger (1:28:11) just when you thought you were done and... Well, she actually has her shit together. I I know because I lived with you for a week last month ago. Without her, you would be fucking lost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Marc Winter (1:28:39) Oh, with kids? Oh, the worst, yeah, yeah. So, no, but I mean, a strong partner, think, you know, a believer in me, and as much as I'm a believer in her, and I think that really helped, and I think also, know. Great relationships, and we should talk about this another time. I feel like it's 70 % attraction, 30 % is just working together as partners. It's just something, my friend Paris used to say that, it's in my head, and I agree with it in a way. She's been equal parts friend, lover, and mom in amazing ways. And I think like, Just lucky. I'm at a loss for words because you're putting me on the spot, but I think that's really how I feel. Maybe that's the luck. Thank you. Paul Fattinger (1:29:23) I think there is no better way to end this interview than Mark saying, I'm at a loss for words. I've done my job. And with this, you know, friends and guys like us, we talk to you soon.