guyslikeus EP16: what happens when you actually follow through on an idea

Paul Fattinger (00:13) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, and you most likely are, this is a podcast about all the things that you start thinking about when you approach or are in, and we got to admit it, man, midlife. So you'll hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out. Marc Winter (00:29) No. Paul Fattinger (00:39) ensured all the stuff that shaped us and continues to move us. So we hope there's something in it for you as well. And today we're going to talk about a birthing experience, not Mark's second child, right? But as close, I mean, we've been there five times, you know, between the two of us. And I don't even want to dare to compare this, but we're going to talk about the birth of our podcast and all the things that we went through, but... Marc Winter (00:56) God. Was that fun? Paul Fattinger (01:08) that we kind of learned and are still learning. And we think it's going to make a pretty good episode. I don't know about the so what yet, but yeah. So your hosts today are, and I'm going to start with myself because I want to properly introduce Mark and myself, Paul calling in from Vienna and Mark calling in from his swanky wine cellar in New York City. How is it going, my friend? Marc Winter (01:12) The Trail of Insecurities. I'm gonna call it the Trail of Insecurities. Hello, hello. It's awesome to chat with you and thanks for that introduction. know, reliving the birth of a podcast is I think gonna be a lot more fun than reliving the birth of our children. Paul Fattinger (01:45) Yes, fun for sure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. It's a- Marc Winter (01:48) Not much more exciting, but it'll be fun. Paul Fattinger (01:51) Yeah, I don't I'm not sure I mean, we're gonna get this I would be comfortable sharing about it. But it was an out of, you know, body experience almost, I gotta say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Mark, my friend, who are you sponsored by today? For everyone who doesn't know we we have our sponsors that we mentioned right at the beginning of our show. Marc Winter (01:59) Yeah, yeah, ⁓ that's for sure. That's right. you know, I should say today I selected this beer. It's called Celebration IPA because I think we're celebrating the launch of this podcast. Yeah. You know, I, by the way, I'm creating a secret wish list of who I'd love to be sponsored by. And I'm going to share it for another podcast, but it's, Paul Fattinger (02:20) Mmm. Nice. Yeah, no, no, you should manifest it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (02:35) It's five or six names going deep. Yeah, exactly. So but you know, Sierra Nevada celebration I pay very good by the way holiday beer ⁓ Full of all kinds of nutmeg six something but has all like, you know nutmeg cinnamon that kind of thing. It's so good. No, it feels like it tastes like Christmas, but not sugary Paul Fattinger (02:43) Yeah, heavy. How much? Not nothing. Really? Is it getting, it's quite autumny in New York, right? Beautiful. I saw pictures of my ex timeline of, there's some dude I followed that always makes beautiful pictures of Central Park. Looked amazing. Marc Winter (03:08) Yeah, well today's the marathon and it's but it's all day. it's 50. Amazing. Yeah. The world's largest race. don't know. I think it's what 17 1517. don't know. like that. Whatever. Anyway, who's sponsoring you? Yeah. Paul Fattinger (03:10) I know. friend of mine is running. He's there. Really? I still don't get it. Good luck everyone who's running. So I'm sponsored Landgut Schöne Erde again. I've had those guys, you those are, my two friends, Christina and Marcus, who are, you know, new, ⁓ minted wine makers. And this is a red wine from the North of Vienna or North of Vienna. Very nice. Support them guys. Landgut Schöne Erde, beautiful wines, beautiful place, beautiful people. Marc Winter (03:29) Yeah. Do they ship to New York by any chance? Hint hint. Maybe for a friend. Okay. Paul Fattinger (03:54) Next time I come, I'll bring it. Next time I'm not going to take the cheapest ticket and leave some space for wine. How many bottles did you take last time you came from? Maybe that gets you into trouble. Marc Winter (04:08) No, it's fine. ⁓ don't know, like 10 bottles. It's the last time I took. mean, listen, the tariffs, it's a big deal. you can buy between duty free and what you shove in your suitcase. It's a amount. Yeah, No, no, no, no. You go to really good shops. Yeah, yeah. You can buy a few in the airport. It's also fine. Yeah. Man, it's been intense. So I spent a week out on the West Coast between Paul Fattinger (04:14) Really? No and the markup too man. Did you buy them at the airport? No exactly. Yeah. So how was your week, my friend? Marc Winter (04:36) San Francisco and Seattle, seeing some clients, some friends of the firm, some other friends, know, at all the big names you can imagine. You know, the AI thing obviously is, it's crazy. You I feel like it's like you land in Disneyland of AI, you when you land out in San Francisco, especially, you know, all the billboards is about this or what, you everyone is manifesting something. So if they're the future, well. Paul Fattinger (04:55) Mm, mm. Marc Winter (05:05) What a future we have in store for us. It's kind of crazy. Paul Fattinger (05:09) Alright, interesting, interesting. ⁓ Marc Winter (05:11) But you know, I had a funny conversation I'd love to share with you. So I had breakfast with a ⁓ good friend ⁓ at this really bougie hotel on Sandhill Road. You know, that's the famous road where all the VCs are. Andreessen Horowitz, et cetera, the Rosewood. And I heard two crazy stories there, yeah. Paul Fattinger (05:16) Go ahead. What's the hotel? No, it's funny because I told you before, right? This colleague of mine was there. He was also there. Exactly that hotel the week before. yeah. ⁓ Marc Winter (05:37) yeah. yeah, of course. I'm sure that's where they all hang out. Yeah. I heard like, you know, $10 billion goes between hands there, you know, in a single day, roughly something like that. Anyway, so, ⁓ we were talking about, ⁓ growth and growth drivers and the difference between the U S and Europe, you know, and, and I said, you know, how could it's like, I was talking about how I was trying to motivate and think about instilling more of a growth mindset in Europe, you know, for some colleagues or some colleagues of mine who V companies out there are trying to instill in their people. Paul Fattinger (05:43) Really? Okay. ⁓ Mm. Marc Winter (06:07) And my breakfast companion turned to me is like, Mark, because when Europeans make $100 million, you know what they do? They buy chateaus and they buy vineyards. Do you know what ⁓ people in Silicon Valley, when they make $100 million, you what they think about? How do I get to a billion? And that's the difference. And I was at that point, I realized. on which continent I belong on when I make $100 million and that felt really clarifying to me. I was like, I was just like, and he was like, to make a million billion dollars, that's a lot of work. That's like all sleep, you no sleep. That's nothing. was like, you've already won at 100 million, you know, what else do you need? Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. But it's fun to be in that mindset, you know, and meet people there. Paul Fattinger (06:33) Europe. Exactly. man, it's super fun. It opens a whole new avenue of thinking. I had also an interesting work week actually, not, mean, like you, can't really talk about everything, but I was in Switzerland. I saw a super interesting company. I'll talk about it and really, really inspiring, inspiring stuff. yeah. Yeah, I can, but it's kind of a, to mention it in the later segment that we have on the show. Yeah. Yeah. No, do. They do something really cool. They do. Marc Winter (07:11) you can't say anything about what the company does? Okay, got it. Got it. Okay. Cool. Nice. Paul Fattinger (07:24) They invented an alternative to concrete, which is totally nuts, which is you can create basically CO2 free because you don't have to heat it up. And it has very similar properties. that's insane. It's really insane. The application of this into, know, one of the biggest CO2 emitters is construction and actually by cement and how you do cement because you need lots of heat. Marc Winter (07:40) Mm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (07:53) And this guy found a way how you can do this, you know, very simply without, and that's pretty, pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, yeah. Marc Winter (07:59) Well, that's cool. Well, you know, if I could spend a day like, actually, maybe that was my job for a while. But you know, part of the most fun things about my job and something I could do for a long period of time is just visit companies, I think actually, like, and just learn what they do. And, and it's just a lot of fun just to like, if you're curious and want to understand different business models, but also different, like, you know, problem sets, just going around and doing that's blast. So fun, Switzerland. Paul Fattinger (08:15) Yeah, amazing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, always feel though, you know, when you do this, it's kind of like, don't think I've had enough. I took enough time ever to really sit and digest all of this and kind of, you know, and kind of put down the learnings of it in a sense, because, you know, you see so much and then you jump on the plane back home. And I guess it was like with you and you come home and then bam, here are the two kids, you know, they're probably said here, here they are. Good luck. Have fun now because you were gone for five days. Marc Winter (08:53) exactly what you did. did you know that? Yeah, exactly. Do you remember them? You're about to. Paul Fattinger (08:54) Exactly. No, because I know every one of us has been there. like, these are your sons. Ciao. I'm leaving. So, you know, exactly. Do remember them? However, it's your problem now for the next, you know, whatever weekend. And fair enough and fair enough. But but in that spirit, I guess that's a good segue to our to today's kind of topic where we want to also because we want to launch this thing on the bigger stage, you know, also with this episode, we wanted to. As we usually do in this podcast, we kind of take topics that moved us in the past days or weeks, and then we kind of talk about it on this podcast. and I think the podcast itself was a big topic for us in the past couple of days. And it kind of came that we wanted to, we wanted to go, you know, we've been live for a while and this is our 16th episode. Yeah, not bad actually. No, I think we are. Marc Winter (09:49) Not bad actually, yeah. Who thought we'd make it this far? Paul Fattinger (09:53) No, no, I think, I don't know. What did we say at one point? I over, I don't know, 70 % don't make it past 20. So I think we're getting to the top 20 % quite soon. And then, and then we wanted to launch it last week because we finally had our new logo done and stuff. And then all of a sudden, both of us got cold feet in one way or the other. So we thought, that's actually interesting. That's an interesting topic to talk about. So I was wondering, Mike, kind of, you know, what is... But let's start there. Why did you get cold feet? Marc Winter (10:26) You know, I think, no, no, no, no, it's not fair. No, but I did make a decision. You know, I think I'm going to reframe this a little bit and in a good way and I'll answer it in a sec. I think part of this journey has been about the creative act with a friend. And it's kind of interesting, like when you're building something new, especially with a dear friend. Paul Fattinger (10:26) I mean, you didn't totally chicken out. I mean, let's put it this, but we did get cold feet. Let's, know. Marc Winter (10:52) In a middle life stage, God, that hurts to say, you know, but actually, but drawing on a lot of wisdoms and like, and, know, and things that, ⁓ in past experience. And I think, you know, when you're putting something out there, like you want to make sure that's perfect, that you have, ⁓ you know, that the communication is right, that the tech feels good, the topics feel spawn, et cetera. And it was one last bit of hesitation before actually you have to take the week. know what I mean? And, ⁓ And in the end, you just have to say, fuck it, right? And go and get really excited. And that's where I'm at. But it was that little bit of a, like, if I, if I could create a visual metaphor, you know, right before you jump off the cliff for the diving board, you know, that little bit of a hesitation, and then you have to go. ⁓ Not all leaps are like that, but I think a lot of creative leaps sometimes are, you know, Paul Fattinger (11:39) Yeah, but... Yeah, I guess you have more experience with that than I do with creative things. And I was wondering, I mean, was it only for you kind of like the jumping and taking that leap or also, I I think it's a loaded question because I know we had this discussion and you had a big week for work, right? You saw, you know, you saw lots of, you know, potential clients, you know, big ticket meetings. And I think if I remember correctly, you said, I'm not sure. You know, if that's the best way, if that's the best way to launch this thing. Marc Winter (12:15) ⁓ you mean you mean like who's Mark Winter on LinkedIn and the first thing they'll see is like, you know, co host of guys like us am I reading a like a ⁓ meeting of radio personality or someone who's going to help me with my company. That is a legit worry I had. Yes, it's true. Well, right now since I've already had those meetings, I'm like, fuck it. ⁓ It doesn't matter. It is. Paul Fattinger (12:32) What do you think about it now? man, that's cheating. That's cheating. Marc Winter (12:43) But if you're asking, I brave or not, I think actually the fact that we're doing this and reintroducing this podcast is a good thing, and a better topic. feels like the right entry point for what we wanna do. It really does. Paul Fattinger (12:56) You know, I had a similar, I mean, I didn't have those big meetings, but I had a similar thing. I was also thinking, damn, now if I put this on LinkedIn and then, you know, lots of people are going to see this and they're going to listen to this and what are they going to think? What are they going to say? And I do have that. mean, I admit I don't, I like to say I don't give a shit what others think because I would love to not give a shit, but I do. And, and, and so, yeah, that's kind of like, I had put down a few questions for us and one was like, kind of what was, You know, what was the thing that, that kind of scared us with all of this and, and, and what was the feedback and reaction from, from others? And I don't know how it is for you, but like, I would say let's pick like out of 10 people, would say eight actually had a, or seven had a very openly good reaction. Two of those would really provide great feedback. And I want to shout out to my brother in law, Johan, who is like, or he's meticulous on his fucking feedback. It hurts also sometimes, like because he's like, yeah, he's like on point and relentless. Yeah. It's a gift, not always easy to take, but it's a gift. And we try to incorporate it, if you know, you you can actually give us a shout out for this in the comments that helps, heard. And then there are, and then I'm sure the, and then out of the other three that don't say much, I'm sure there is a few that really say, you know, that's, that's just. Marc Winter (13:56) Yes, yes. Thanks, Johan. Feedback is a gift. Paul Fattinger (14:22) embarrassing and ridiculous and not cool. Don't you think? Marc Winter (14:25) No, I don't think so. I no, I think I think I think two friends having fun and and trying to put something useful out into the world. I don't see that as embarrassing and ⁓ Paul Fattinger (14:39) I don't see it as embarrassing myself either, but I think there are other people that might. what I'm saying. Fuck that. Marc Winter (14:43) Yeah, but fuck them, you know, this marks bravada. Anyway, no, it's true. Like, look, I, I, thanks, Johan, first of all, for the feedback. ⁓ and you know, my, my own wife's like, yeah, this is, she's like, it's cool that you're doing this, but I don't think you're on your audience. I was like, no, you're not. get enough of me anyway. But Paul Fattinger (14:52) I don't disagree. No, no, absolutely not. Good question. Who is our audience you think though? Marc Winter (15:09) That's true. Well, hopefully, you know, as the title says, you know, ⁓ people in a similar life stage with similar taste wrestling with similar questions would love to listen to us and think about what we're taking taking on and think about what we have to say. And I'm getting a lot of ⁓ topic recommendations from some of my friends. So that's a good thing. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (15:31) Amazing man. You know there is an Apple Notes thing where we can put them all down. You know, something that I created. Marc Winter (15:39) Oh, that's true. Yeah, exactly. I love a leading note. Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (15:41) Let's talk about this. This is a great segue to what are the things when we created it that really frustrated you. Was there anything? Marc Winter (15:52) ⁓ okay. you know, the strategist brain wants me to bucket these things, but, ⁓ look, number one, the time zone sometimes is tricky. You know, I mean, I think it's, it's a cool advantage and fun that, know, you're in Vienna and I'm in New York, but, ⁓ it was also way more fun when we're in the same room, you know, but, ⁓ I, hopefully I think the, the podcasts will benefit from us having different experiences and bringing that into this. Paul Fattinger (16:03) Yeah. Marc Winter (16:22) conversation. So we feel a little more global and cross continental. ⁓ Number two is obviously the tech, which you bitched about on, I don't know, five podcasts in a row, but we can get our microphones going, et cetera. And, and, and, know, full credit to you for leading it. And I think, you know, ⁓ is that it? think sometimes like you realize that this is an investment of Paul Fattinger (16:37) Yeah, that was frustrating. fully agree. Marc Winter (16:51) energy and time, which isn't frustrating, but requires something, you know, for it to be good, it requires presence. It's not something you can just whip off and chat and, and, or, or requires that you be intentional. And I know if it's, that's, if that's a frustration, but you realize, oh, it's a commitment, you know, to keep doing something like this. And, um, it's a commitment worth doing. I've never questioned it, but it's, it's, I realize, oh, okay, we're leading up to a thing we need to really think about. A, what we want to talk about, also ensure that we're being, you know, it's not just drinking, drinking booze and mouthing off. You know, we want to bring something and a point of view. Let's put it that way. Paul Fattinger (17:31) Yeah. You know, to me, the most frustrating as you know me is that all the things took longer than we thought they would. And I think I remember we had originally said we wanted to go live in August. Then we're like, okay, no, let's just keep on recording. And then we said, well, then I came to New York beginning of September and I said, let's launch it end of September, maybe beginning of October. And now it's going to be basically beginning of November. Marc Winter (17:40) Yes. Yes. True. Yeah, which is. Paul Fattinger (18:01) And that's kind of frustrated me. And the fact that I'm putting everything in Google notes and shits and sheets and whatever the fuck. And I don't think you've looked at a single one, but that's another thing, you know. Marc Winter (18:10) That's absolutely not true. I want to flip, I want to transition us out of frustration. that's boring. Unless you really want to hit on that and talk about, ⁓ well, hold on. One last thing on the timing. I agree. And at the same time, I would like to give a shout out to our dear friends, ⁓ David Dini and Pla. I mean, did amazing work, both in the photography and the, Paul Fattinger (18:34) Unreal. mean, it was worth everything. And it wasn't damn actually the reason why we went late also, to be honest. I mean, that was not... Yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (18:42) No, no, let's all be clear. But, but I think, you know, which is a good lesson as we moved where I want to transition us to it's like, Hey, we want to put a good quality product out there in all its dimensions, you know, and we, and we had some high aspiration for that. Now what surprised me and I really would love to, to riff on this, a, a, because Paul Fattinger (19:02) Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Marc Winter (19:07) Paul doesn't think I read his things, first of all, and I do. And it's like it doesn't think I follow on. Yeah, exactly, exactly. See, I project one thing, and I do the other. That's part of the sauce, the magic. But it's really great to build something with complementary capabilities. ⁓ And I really mean that. I think I was just. Paul Fattinger (19:10) I know that's why I was this that that that you just said this surprised me. Yeah, you're like you got me there. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, they're authentic. ⁓ Marc Winter (19:35) Joking gonna know I have a few other creative endeavors, but there's nothing like working with You know I mean Paul you've been an ex-ceo you know, you're clearly a leader and you clearly have strong points of view and you know how to get shit done, know and like the way you kind of weaned into this to move and and Execute has been sort of breathtaking and I was like god I'd be lucky to have you as a teammate. I am lucky to have you as a teammate, you know, and so that was Paul Fattinger (20:04) human. Marc Winter (20:04) A strong thing and you know, and I always had the suspicion that in this phase of life It would be amazing to partner or reconnect with your friends on something that really matters would be really interesting, know, especially you you go on your own path your friend goes on their own path and some that you come together and ⁓ We had an event one for this but it's been really fucking cool to see kind of how you know the different ways that we see the world kind of intersects into something really magical, so That's a surprise. A pleasant one. mean, I knew it was a good surprise, but the degree of which felt meaningful. Paul Fattinger (20:41) Dude, I totally agree. it's, ⁓ I think that's one of the big learning repeats almost that it is always better. I could not imagine creating something on my own, to be honest. I'm wondering, I know you've created on your own because you wrote your scripts and you know, and your things. And I don't know how that compares actually, because I don't know, this is a foreign world to me. Marc Winter (21:01) Sure, sure, sure, sure. Paul Fattinger (21:10) But in everything that I've ever created, I've always done it with someone. you know, the consulting business we created, I created with a partner, Jörg, which was amazing. I actually always felt in the CEO role, you are quite alone. You don't really have a peer, but you can still co-create with team and board and ownership and so on. ⁓ But I've also never also created with a friend. mean, co-creators have become friends, right? Marc Winter (21:39) Yeah, Paul Fattinger (21:39) But then, but to start it off, yes, Marc Winter (21:40) usually that's how friendship ends. Paul Fattinger (21:43) and I can see why sometimes too. No, I mean, not with you. Marc Winter (21:49) That's the best slip ever, exactly. Paul Fattinger (21:53) No, no, no, but of course, of course, I not because of I think you are way I think less. ⁓ How do you say? I think you don't let slip things easier with people that who are your friends, right? You are way more open. So if something pisses me off, I'm going to tell you always like, I don't give a fuck. So, so, so, and, and, and, and, and so on. On the other hand, you also have, you know, the other person way better. There is no, not a lot of room for interpretation because you know, I mean, so I think it's fantastic. I loved it, but I also wouldn't do it with every friend I have to be very honest. I think that's a very select few. Marc Winter (22:10) Yeah. Yeah. No, no, of course not. Paul Fattinger (22:29) That can also take me, think. it's more, I have a lot of respect for you handling my impatience, perfectionism, impatience again, and all the other things that I, my love equalities. Marc Winter (22:40) the blunt Austrian instrument that you are sometimes. exactly. same, likewise. ⁓ But that's a cool thing. Go ahead. Paul Fattinger (22:46) Yes, yes. So I appreciate you, Yeah. ⁓ So, but in terms of, yeah, sorry, go ahead. No, in terms of surprise, I wanted to say I was surprised how hard it was to do that, actually, because you always kind of think, that's an easy one. We just get together and we talk, right? We like talking, you know, I know we're not completely stupid, so we have, you know, good things to say. Marc Winter (23:01) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (23:13) And one of my friends who listened, I think he said he listened to episode one and 13. Thank you, Vedi. He was like, the progress is incredible. And I hope it's true because after the first episode, actually we did the first episode twice or something before we actually launched it. I don't remember because we really thought the first one sucked. First take. Marc Winter (23:33) We had this horrible idea that people would want to hear our interpretation of the news or something. ⁓ Who gave us that idea? ⁓ my God. Paul Fattinger (23:38) No, no, no. Also, apart from that, also the rest was shite. Yeah. I can tell you how this idea came about. We talk about it, it was GPT or some other idiot. But in any case, it was bad. And I was surprised how hard it is ⁓ or how not easy it is or not so natural as we thought it would be. ⁓ So that to me was a surprise. But we kind of working ourselves a bit Marc Winter (24:04) Yeah, that resonates. Paul Fattinger (24:07) backwards and that's fine. from now on, launching it to where the idea came from. And I know we've talked about this on this podcast before, but I've also learned to hammer the message. And that's also a surprise, right? Because you kind of think, okay, we've talked about this once, so we can't talk about this anymore because it's boring. But it's not true because no one I think has listened to all the 16 episodes or maybe has, and let alone can remember. I don't remember what we spoke about. five episodes ago, which is also interesting. Marc Winter (24:35) It's like going to the church of male vulnerability, you know? Paul Fattinger (24:41) my God, that's an Instagram clip here. That's here we go. Here we go. That's we're going to market that motherfucker. Yeah. That's going to be an amazing clip. Like I have a friend also Christian huge shout out. think you have actually listened to all of the episodes and, and, and we actually had a coffee this afternoon. And he said to me, yeah, I I listen. You said this in your podcast. It's like really when it's like, so, so that's the other thing ⁓ about this before we go to the very beginning that I find. ⁓ Marc Winter (24:44) There you go. Yeah, exactly. Paul Fattinger (25:11) very interesting is It keeps you real. mean, the things, see, one of the feedbacks we got, and I think that's an interesting one, was you guys, you know, in order to create value and to bring value into this, into those topics, you ought to share, you know, your experiences and open up and know about the things that happen in your lives. And, and because that actually adds value, you know, you can just... Marc Winter (25:15) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (25:39) on a high level on the surface, talk about friendship, you know, who cares? But, you know, what's interesting is when you ever, got really disappointed or, you know, had a really positive experience or when you really got hurt and all of these things that are quite personal. you, we are essentially opening up and talking about personal things and the fact that you can, and that this is an okay thing to do is also kind of the point of the, of this podcast. But as you do, you kind of have this is almost like. I mean, in an extreme, it's almost like someone recorded all your therapy sessions and put them online, right? So it's like you're really... which is, don't worry about it. I think that would be sick, man. Marc Winter (26:15) ⁓ Well, you've taken enough therapy sessions to... years worth so Paul Fattinger (26:22) No, no, I could. But what I mean is, if you talk about those things, it's like, you can change your opinion, but not if you describe an experience. And I've had moments, especially when I spoke about, like in the interview last time I spoke about the more difficult times of my life around divorce and so on, that what you say there is what you say. And I find that it kind of keeps you really unaccountable. there's no two or three sides of the story or two versions. This is the version I tell there because it's a bit more smooth this way or that way. Marc Winter (26:24) I know what you mean. 100%. Paul Fattinger (26:51) There's one version, buddy, and that's it. And that's kind of freeing almost as well, I find. Marc Winter (26:57) You know, that's a great point, and it makes me think, you know, there's the art of radio personalities, which we're absolutely not doing that. I don't think we know how to do that. So these are like, you know, the DJ or the shock jocks or the people that have a personality when they go on the radio and there's their other wife, you know, that's different. And so I find like... Paul Fattinger (27:06) What is it? Marc Winter (27:22) the decision to lean into being ourselves, which is very much the case. To me, it feels very, yeah, you're far more vulnerable than you are just about making jokes about boobs and asses and great films or movies that ranking or whatever. One of those would be fun like once in a time. But I think we're choosing different Paul Fattinger (27:41) and whatever, think sports. All fun things to talk about, to be fair. Marc Winter (27:50) topics that kind of force a bit of vulnerability here and there and ⁓ or least forces us to show little bit what we think authentically and I have deep appreciation for that. And the other thing is, you know, what is modern friendship now really? And I'm curious about that because I think part of the spirit of this is not, I mean, it would be presumptuous to say to model, ⁓ but celebrate might be the right word. you know, of just being real, friends being real with each other. And, and I think that's kind of cool. Paul Fattinger (28:23) Hmm. That is very cool. I don't want to skip over that, but just before I just had a thought about, you I actually have a litmus test coming up because I have a boys weekend in three weeks time, I think. So, and we had this episode, I don't know, was four or five or something, which was on boys. It's one of my favorites. So let's see, let's, let's re-check after that, that, that, that weekend, if I actually did any of the things that Marc Winter (28:43) That's right. Paul Fattinger (28:54) we concluded should be done because I whatever. I have a feeling it's going to be hard to stick to those guidelines. Marc Winter (29:02) If you don't, if you're not visiting your special friend in Switzerland or wherever he is and you're getting and getting great stuff from your know what Paul Fattinger (29:10) No, No, no, my boy's wicked is going to be, you know, back in Syria. 20 beers each sounds like barbecuing. So it's going to be like it's one of those. let's see, let's see. But we talked about this topic, right? Yeah, that's I'm most secure. No, but to come back to the last thing you said about friendship and you have said this from the very beginning. And I love this, you know, Marc Winter (29:17) ⁓ Yeah, you have to draw and mix it up in some way. But I'm curious. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (29:39) a big why and we asked ourselves this question with Microsoft when we had, I think our first kind of like zoom session. And actually it was already on Riverside. I remember that because I was testing the tech. was curious, what are we going to do and how are we going to do it? And I asked you as like, Mark, why would you want to do this? And you said what you just said, right? I mean, at the least it's a reason to get together with one of my best friends once a week, drink a glass of wine and talk. And here we are. And is there, mean, now three, four months in, what other whys do you see? know, what's kind of, as you said, it's not easy, it's not easy actually to find the time between a busy job, two very young kids, six hours time difference, which really fucking suck to be honest. ⁓ they really do. I would have never imagined how much they do, but they do. ⁓ so what's kind of driving you, what's your why to continue doing this? Marc Winter (30:28) It's sterile. You know, actually, think I come back to ⁓ the creative act, honestly. And, you know, there's the time spent and maybe if there was a lesson for ⁓ listeners today, you know, I mean, there's the get to know us, excited that you're listening, et cetera. And then the thing I would say is like, you know, if you're thinking about co-creating something with a dear friend or just you have an idea there to go do it, just do it. I think there's something Paul Fattinger (30:42) Mmm. Marc Winter (31:04) rewarding about it something you can there's really It's joyful like you the nice thing about Spending an hour with a friend is that you know, do your friend is that you know that you're gonna walk away It's not gonna suck, you know, and you're just talk and you're gonna push things forward and that's a beautiful thing but also making and co-creating is is Awesome like like you can do with a stranger or someone you hold dear and and who you admire and respect And I think that's a big why. And we both have big, strong creative and operational strong leadership capabilities. So we'll see. That's all. a dangerous mix. Maybe something will come out of it. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (31:46) Let's see if we actually if we actually manage beyond beyond episode 20. You know, lots of people ask me, why are you doing this? What do you what do you expect out of this? You know, do you think you'd be going to become an influencer or a podcast? It's like, I don't give a fuck. I'm not doing this to become anything. It is really the one thing professionally I've done in the past. And I see it, you know, as as thing that I do professionally. Marc Winter (31:58) Mm. Paul Fattinger (32:15) Yes, it's not just for fun. I think I go at it with, you know, the same earnestness that I go about a job is because it's bringing me joy. It's bringing me joy. And I think this, this was something I took away from, from my coach, Johannes, who you were referring to before, which was a lovely compass, you know, because I wasn't sure what to do, you know, during my sabbatical and stuff. he's like, You know what? And I had the feeling I had to go out and meet lots of people and talk to them. And I was complaining in the session was like, man, can't be fucked, you know, going for another coffee. And he's like, stop doing this. Just do the things that bring you joy and it will get you somewhere. And this is 100 % it. So, so that's my answer. Sorry. Marc Winter (32:50) Ha Is podcasting the new journaling? know, is podcasting is podcasting the new journaling, you know? Paul Fattinger (33:06) Maybe, maybe I still do that though. I still do that. But no, it gives me lots of joy because it is something creative and creating and now we're kind of, you know, kind of creeping back to the very start of it, which was that famous Paris restaurant and that three to four hour conversation about all the things I mentioned in the beginning. I don't what it all was, but it was lots of fun and lots of wine included. And it also showed your genius because it was the night when you came up with, I remember exactly saying like Mike, Marc Winter (33:24) Mmm. Mmm. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (33:36) this could have been a podcast and you said, you're absolutely right then we should do it. But how should we call it? And you said, well, guys like us. That's what it was. It's basically that was. So it's like, and I was looking, looking at it, was like, fuck me. That's genius. Let's fucking do this. Are you? Yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Marc Winter (33:51) I'm on a naming streak this year. Yeah, I'm name a lot of shit this year. You know, I would just like to also stay for the record. You did. did. You did. Bruno. That's a good name. Valentine Bruno. Paul Fattinger (33:58) A son? I gave your son the second name though. I want to say this. Bruno is still a bit offended. It's not his first. I think he could have pulled it off. Maybe he's gonna be one of those. ⁓ Marc Winter (34:09) I think Valentine Bruno is such a cool mix. It's just awesome. It's like sweet, sweetheart. Paul Fattinger (34:13) I think he's gonna, at one point, he's gonna figure it out and call himself Bruno only because, yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (34:17) We'll find that out. ⁓ I would still like to declare for the record that I would like to be the second most famous American in Austria after David Hasselhoff. So that's the other big motivator for this. And so we'll make that trough. exactly. I just need eight million people to see it. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (34:31) Fair enough. You might actually become that or be that. But let's see. Exactly. And to listen to an English-speaking podcast about, you know, ⁓ privileged white male champagne problems. But let's see how big the target group can get, you know. Marc Winter (34:49) Yeah. Cool. Paul Fattinger (34:52) Hey, maybe as a closing, what's the one big learning you still want to, you just said one before is if you have the chance to create something and especially when you have it, creating it with a friend, go out and do it. was saying, follow joy is a great compass needle. Anything else you have on your mind that for you was a learning that you want to. Marc Winter (35:17) Yeah, you know, I found like it being really helpful. I declared for myself in January 2025. This was the year of making and I was a weird mantra for me, but it was like, it was just helpful. Like I was just, you know, there are a lot of things I wanted to make, you know, so I did the great reflection. I want to finish some stories I want to do. And, and when you kind of step in that mindset of just making and building Paul Fattinger (35:19) Share. Marc Winter (35:44) then you receive a lot of ideas, you know, and end like it's just a great head space to be in because then you're you're receiving you're open to just building and pushing and it's gets addictive and fun. And so, you know, the the mental state, you know, to say why not, if not now when, you know, is really helpful. Paul Fattinger (36:07) Yeah. that's a really nice one. can relate in a similar way. One of the kind of first things when I stepped back from my job more than a year ago, I started to kind of realize and everyone I told this was laughing at me. like, was like, guys, I'm really a perfectionist. And everyone was looking me and like, yeah, man, of course you are. Like, I never saw myself like this. Marc Winter (36:31) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (36:33) And but it also showed me how that sometimes it can keep you from actually doing things because, you know, I would be afraid to to not, you know, create something perfect. And it's almost and I realized that to me that kind of perfectionism was was the reason why I very often procrastinated things as well, because I was afraid I wouldn't, you know, deep down afraid I wouldn't finish them properly while I was doing them. It also was a great driver for excellence and just, you know, really, really pushing. Marc Winter (36:39) Totally. Paul Fattinger (37:02) Far but it could also have the exact opposite effect So when we started creating this to me one of the biggest learnings was after episode one not waiting to record 10 Which I wanted to do create the perfect You know Instagram thing and logo and then BAM with a big BAM go out and just and it keeps on constantly challenging me in fact, right because also by Tuesday We're not gonna be perfect, but I need to do it Yeah Marc Winter (37:24) You know that great wine? No. No. There's that great wine, perfect as the enemy of progress or something like that, you know? ⁓ Paul Fattinger (37:34) No, and totally. I have a renewed appreciation for, you know, entrepreneurs and people that create something from scratch for that very reason, which I had always, I was always the person, I think I still am that I'm very good to take something from, you know, to scale it, right? To something that's already there and make it better, bigger, faster, whatever. Marc Winter (37:57) Mm. Mm. Paul Fattinger (38:01) But that zero to nothing, from nothing to something, I always had a great respect for. And I have great respect for people who, do this, create something from scratch. I don't want to compare what we do now to people who created great enterprises and companies. And the biggest respect actually comes from putting yourself out there with your idea, to the judgment of everyone else. ⁓ what happens if that fails and so on. And to me, I think to you maybe less, but to me that is a big thing. And I have a great respect for it. It's been, you know, even age 44 and I think I've created some shit in my life and that's my successes, but there is always new things to learn. And that's been quite humbling too, that learning. Yeah. Marc Winter (38:46) 100 % Yeah, actually it's interesting you put it in that context. At age 45, I guess a little older, ⁓ I feel like the whole world is open in front of me. And it's you're just deploying everything you learned into making something. It's a lot of fun. that's cool. Paul Fattinger (39:06) It's amazing. It's totally fucking cool. Best, best ever. Every year, you know, I think, I mean, that I've learned that every 44 is the best and I'm sure next year I'm going to tell you 45 is the best. And that's it. On that point, let's move on. No, it's a great, great episode. love it. Dude, Terminator and Idiot of the Week, you prepared? Marc Winter (39:19) Yeah. Yeah, that was great. That was a great reflection episode. Me too. Paul Fattinger (39:33) You got something? I do. Yeah? Tell me about it. Marc Winter (39:34) Of course. Well, I'm going to firstly with the idiot. I, the idiot for once is me ⁓ on this. Usually. ⁓ So I got to tell you, like, I never dabble a lot with sleeping pills, you know, but, ⁓ you know, a friend of mine gave me unisome a few times, which is a legendary story for some work in Paris. Paul Fattinger (39:43) really? Marc Winter (39:59) kind of overdosed on that. I overdosed, meaning I did two of those and I was like non-functional for the day. I barely remembered much. But you know, I did, like I came back from the West coast and I was convinced that I just needed an amazing night's sleep and I pumped. Yeah, you know, some just one of those, I'll just sleep 10 hours, it'd be amazing, et cetera, right? Of course, you know, A, you forget that you have, you know, young children at home that will wake up at 5.30, et cetera. So you'll be non-functional. Paul Fattinger (40:13) and you'll be perfect. Marc Winter (40:28) ⁓ As you know, it's like I was I was pairing up my desire for incredible sleep with with the pill and then be like I've never been this grumpy in years, you know, my wife turned to me like, I don't know what happened to you, right? But you've got to like stop right and then she Yeah, that I came. Yeah, then I came clean today and I was like, you know what happened? Like I have to be honest with you. I had to get these these utas and she's like, I'm throwing those fucking pills out. Paul Fattinger (40:29) Yeah, that's the way. Snap out of this immediately. Exactly. You know, you should have taken one of those gummies you gave me once for my flight home. Remember? Yeah, you gave me like a little fun, a little... Exactly. And I was, I got so fucking freaked out on that fucking plane, man. I had like claustrophobia and I was like, no, anyways. No, that's fine. I'm fine. I mean, it's my own fault. My idiot of the week is Halloween. Marc Winter (40:57) That's how bad I was. ⁓ yeah. that's right. That was that was 10 milligrams of THC. Yeah, that was that wasn't so smart. Yeah. Ha I've had one of those. I'm sorry about that. I'm still sorry about that. ⁓ Who are yours? What? Paul Fattinger (41:24) I fucking hate Halloween. Yes. And I can tell you why. It's because I'm a traditionalist and Halloween is not a European thing. Right. And it's one of these commercially introduced holidays that we had a holiday already in Austria. We have one this carnival. Right. I mean, it happens in February where you dress up. So all this dressing up business has already been there. Right. I mean, minus the trick or treating, I would say. But Marc Winter (41:26) What? Huh. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, which is awesome. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (41:54) So, I mean, now it's a big thing, right? And also my kids love it that we're not here, but then it is all right. But I kind of like, I mean, I don't love it, man. Marc Winter (42:01) So sorry, what you really hate is the appropriation of American holidays into European culture. So let me guess, you must also hate Valentine's Day? Bullshit, right? Yeah. What else is there? Do we have another? You guys haven't adopted 4th of July. That would be hilarious. I'm just saying, you know? mean, it's basically just Halloween and Valentine's Day. Paul Fattinger (42:08) Yes, yes, yes. With a passion, with a passion, total fucking bullshit. No, we have our 26th of October, it has nothing to do with your 4th of July. ⁓ It is really just Halloween and Valentine's to be fair. I've kind of like, okay, whatever. But Halloween also, if it happened after our proper, you know, Fasching carnival, I would be great. But it kind of takes all the fun away, like from what is, you know, so I'm kind of, mean. Marc Winter (42:36) That's the worst. Yeah, yeah. Well, also because, well, can I also ask, just riff on this for a sec? Like Halloween is supposed to be scary, you know? And if you're all dressing up as vampires and ghouls and et cetera, but you know, no, no, exactly. If you're dressing up as exactly, well, yeah, of course, yeah. You don't have to complete your thought. There's that. It is true that most... Paul Fattinger (42:56) Yeah, but not as Catwoman, Although, you know, depends, yeah. Yeah. Depends, for some people that could be scary, you know? Marc Winter (43:11) I wonder how many erotic shops are actually sold out of their stuff. We put out a lingerie and a witch's hat and that's a Halloween costume for some. No, but I mean, but on that vein, I mean, like, you know, people are Disney characters or they're or they're I I like some of the clever stuff. But if you have fashion already, which is already that perfect vessel for that, yeah, then. Okay, got it. with you. Paul Fattinger (43:16) Totally man, totally. Exactly. So I'm kind of, that's my idea. What's your terminator of the week? Marc Winter (43:35) So I had, I won't say which, but I had the pleasure of visiting ⁓ a creative animation studio out in the West coast and it's a very famous one. And I can only say I've, know, these are like life changing kind of visits. You you never really, when you see a company so dedicated to creativity and cherishing that and upholding that and giving their, you know, as an animation. So they're animators, the freedom of expression of the space and everything from how they design their own work spaces to how they generate ideas, you know, and I can give you like, you know, some work spaces, you know, to give these animators full license to design whatever they want. So, you know, people are building, you know, Paul Fattinger (44:23) Amazing. Marc Winter (44:26) like workspaces that look like a plane crash in a jungle that's your cubicle, you know, or another is like a witch's hut or another is, you know, Indiana Jones's temple. And, and you're just thinking that's an excellent question. What would mine be? ⁓ Paul Fattinger (44:36) What would yours be? Marc Winter (44:43) You know, it's that is a really good question. Part of me wants it to be like a Zen samurai temple. like, because it's work, work is getting done and you just kind of want to feel like, I don't know, that's part inspiration part kind of like execution. Here's what I know what I don't want it to be. I don't want it to be like some James Bond 007 kind of casino ask cubicle. you know, that serves martinis and stuff, because while I would love that, I will never work. It's just, ⁓ it's still a job, you know? But I think that kind of space, you know, fuels my creativity. What about you? Paul Fattinger (45:24) I think mine would be kind of like a... ⁓ know, a bottom to like floor to ceiling glass window overlooking like nature, like forest or something. And very... yeah, my cubicle. Yeah, I don't think in cubicles, Yeah, that would be my... yeah. I kind of took this idea further than it was. Yeah, okay, let's... Marc Winter (45:38) That would be your cubicle. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. saw you. Now you're running the studio in the jungle. Got it. I see. Okay. Good. Yeah. Well done. Yeah. What's yours? That's okay. Paul Fattinger (45:52) Let's stop it there. Here you go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Um, mine was actually similar and similar stories. What I had said in the beginning, this company is called, I can say is called Oxara and it was founded by this guy, Nan Li, Nan Li is his name and he's from Togo and he has an amazing life story that's been, you know, written about. He was also four and a 30 and so on, but he, from the age of seven, he left his family, his parents, and he went out to build homes all through Africa with his uncle. And when he was 16, he was sent to France to go to school. And then he, you know, he graduated and in the end he, went to ETH, you know, the best engineering school in Zurich, in Switzerland, one in Europe, and actually then also won a prize there for one of the best PhDs he, ⁓ wrote in material sciences in order. And he was driven by the fact that it, you know, he wanted the people in Africa can afford. Marc Winter (46:27) Wow. Cool. Paul Fattinger (46:52) proper homes that are not just clay homes, And he said, you know, people who can afford it, they build with concrete, but they build over 20 years because basically one bag of concrete costs a month or two worth of salaries. And that's why you just stretch this thing out for two decades in order to do this. And he was like, there must be a better way. And so he went about doing that. And he went about doing that with a question that finally enough, no one has. Marc Winter (46:55) Mmm. Paul Fattinger (47:20) asked themselves, you know, in that, in the environment of, you know, a top European research facility in material sciences. Right. I'm sure lots of people in Africa have asked themselves the questions, but they didn't have the mean to research that topic. And he did. And he really also connected with other sciences like geologists and so on. And he got to something, which is an alternative to concrete that can be produced very easily without applying heat just by mixing shit together. have no clue how, I mean, it goes beyond me. And there are an up and coming company that is scaling and going to change the world. And I think it's fascinating that in things that we think are set in stone or in concrete, it's not set in concrete. You can do things still differently. And that's insane. And it's just by changing the point of view of things, right? Just by asking the question in a different way. Beautiful. Marc Winter (47:57) So cool. I feel like I've read about this company. Amazing what you can reimagine. Mmm. Yeah, of course. The lenses upon which you look at a thing. That's a good way to end on this. Well, this was lovely, man. It was terrific. So excited to this. Paul Fattinger (48:17) It is. It was a pleasure, Nyquist. Me too! See you soon my friend! Marc Winter (48:24) Cheers.