Happy Thanksgiving: about celebrating holidays and other traditions | Ep 19

Paul Fattinger (00:00) get myself into real trouble here. Marc Winter (00:01) No, no, no, I don't want you to get in trouble. It's not that I'm better. I think there's enough harmony in my family, which is unique, I should say, my parents had this playroom in our house. where all the kids, all the cousins got together and there were like, you know, eight of us, 12 of us at some point, know, depending who was coming from Germany or Portugal and the pillow fights, the video games, the toys, everything was opening their stuff. this was like, Hello, welcome to Guys Like Us. If you are new to this podcast, this is a podcast about the things that you start to think about when you are in, and we gotta admit to that, I've in midlife, you'll hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, in short, all the things that shaped us and continue to move us, and we hope there's something in there for you as well. And today's episode I'm really excited to talk about. We're to be talking about holidays and family. And I'm Mark and I'm joined by my dear friend. Paul Fattinger (01:21) Hello and good evening. Marc Winter (01:22) ⁓ Good evening. How are you today, my friend? Paul Fattinger (01:28) I'm very good. How are you doing, I mean, it's freezing outside. It's zero degrees. It's crazy. It's winter. So I'm kind of like... Yeah. Yeah. Marc Winter (01:30) I am. No, zero degrees. Okay, so zero degrees is 32, right, in ⁓ Fahrenheit. Okay, it's cold, it's not freezing. I mean, it is freezing, but it's not. Yeah, okay. Paul Fattinger (01:42) almost freezing. is, I feel it's, it's winter is coming, which is nice because that means skiing is coming. So I'm kind of excited. It's been crazy work week. It's also exciting. Kids have been with me for a few days, which is means total chaos and, and, basically an industrial kitchen and industrial kitchen cleaning needed. So, but it's all good. Hang in there. How about yourself? Marc Winter (02:04) Okay, okay, that's pretty good. I, good, I'm recovering from a long week. I started my week just with a full detox. I was going through the clean, nothing like really just trying to stay sharp with everything I had going on. And then ⁓ I met an old friend I haven't really hung out with for a good year. Yeah, I know you know where this is going. But ⁓ No, we did, well, we used to know each other when he was living in the East Village, my friend Mark James. we met because in one of my earlier jobs in film, the producer I'd worked with, the female producer, like, there's someone I think you should know, you should get to know. And he was working at Sony Entertainment there. And when we met, I don't think we did whatever the producer was hoping that we would be doing because we just drank beers and became friends. Paul Fattinger (02:49) Mm-hmm. Marc Winter (02:59) It's been like that for 20 years. But he's moved out and now he was in and we took a nice tour of the old haunts in the East Village. It was good fun. I'm living off those memories. Maybe he's a good potential guest star. He's got a lot of good stories moving forward. Paul Fattinger (03:07) Nice. Sounds fun. Yeah, very fun. Yeah, I loved the guest episode last time. I really did. It super fun. Lots of fun. Marc Winter (03:18) It was a lot of It was a lot of fun. Who's sponsoring you today, by the way? Paul Fattinger (03:25) I am sponsored by a curious find in my wine cupboard. It's called a Kerschbaum, QA Kerschbaum from Burgenland in Austria. It's quite a heavy port dough, which you know that I don't actually do so well on. And, but I did cook, so I had to open some red wine. And it's actually quite nice for what it is. And then I just Googled it before we came in and it's... Marc Winter (03:45) Ha ha ha! Paul Fattinger (03:50) It was a nice sauce. Someone brought it to me. someone gave it to me and whoever did that, chances are very high they wouldn't be listening. ⁓ It was a great sauce, but it also tastes really nice. Sorry about that. Oops. Marc Winter (03:52) Let's move that way. I was about to say it. Question for you, how many times have you been in a situation where like the recipe called for bit of red wine, you open up your cupboard and it's only good shit? And then you're like, all right, am I gonna go to the wine show? Paul Fattinger (04:20) Yeah, you know what that happened and it hasn't happened in a while because always someone brings some wine to me that I know exactly. It's like I get it. It's like, I think so much. And so like already my head goes like, I'm going to put this in this sauce, this motherfucker. And then that's what I'm going to do. Or I'm going to give it to this idiot. Yeah, because he doesn't know what this good, you know. So the only thing you have to be very careful about is not to give it back to the same person. Marc Winter (04:30) Ha ha! Okay. I mean, I, I, so, so I just love the idea of like, you know, bringing you a gift and there's like an automatic sorting, sorting filter in your head, you know, that's like sauce, regift, drink. Exactly. Nice. Okay. Good. Nice. Well, I'm sponsored by, ⁓ actually, ⁓ four roses. No, no, no, it's I don't know what it is actually. So Paul Fattinger (04:48) Yeah. So I have a stash. Basic. I have a stash. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. Yeah. No, I do. Yeah. Check Daniels. Four roses. Marc Winter (05:16) He moved out, ⁓ but I think I told you about this. I had a neighbor who used to work for, what was it? No, Campari, Campari, but the conglomerate. So had a lot of different ⁓ groups that they own. One of them is a whiskey brand. They own a lot of them, like Russell's. I forgot what the big one is. Anyway, I rediscovered that he gave, I forgot he had given me all these samples and. Paul Fattinger (05:20) I hear, yeah. The Azure and one of those. Hi. Marc Winter (05:42) I guess when you're in sales and alcohol, you carry around samples. And when he moved out, it just gave me basically a suitcase of them. Yeah. No, no, no, no. It turns out that, uh, as I was putting on shoes, I was putting on new shoes today to go out and I was like, wait, what is this inside this sack? I was like, there's more. I cannot understate how many samples he gave me. was like really like whatever he couldn't ship to Miami came to my. Paul Fattinger (05:48) that's the ones last time you said you threw them away, so you didn't throw them away. There were more. No. Really? But like the small ones that are like, I don't know, I don't know the answers, but... Marc Winter (06:15) Yeah, the small little kind of like things. Yeah, so each of those are like a, I don't know, a glass of something. So that's what I'm drinking. That's not bad. I just worry about the alcohol content. It's a Four Roses, you know, Sherry Oak, 56 % alcohol. Yeah, yeah. Did I say it wasn't? ⁓ sorry, no, it is. But it's not what I meant to say. It's not a traditional Four Roses. It's one of those special batch kind of things. That's all. Paul Fattinger (06:20) Nice. What is it though? So these are four roses. Yeah, ⁓ Aha, And those little ones, think, yeah, I guess they're as dangerous as the big bottles, to be honest, because the big bottles don't go bad. that's why I don't have them anymore. We talked about it last time. Marc Winter (06:51) No, dude. Yeah, but I got rid of them as well because the little ones are also as dangerous because you think they're little so you could yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, ⁓ no Exactly got all right Paul Fattinger (06:57) Even more, because you can hide them. don't actually, you that never happened. It's like, it never happens. Like, I don't know what you're talking about, I didn't know. I didn't see. No, I don't know. Maybe actually Vera hit that stash there, you know, a gunfight. Oh, it did. All right, man. But listen, you guys got a big week coming up. Thanksgiving. And that's kind of the inspiration. Here we go. It is your favorite holiday. Marc Winter (07:12) She probably did for me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Guess. My favorite holiday, totally. Absolutely. And it is, you know, the reason why is it's got a simple idea of gratitude. It's agnostic of family. It brings friends and family together. It's about a shared table. ⁓ It's agnostic of religion. So there's no zero religious ties. It's more like what's... be together, let's share gratitude for our friendship, for our presence. And I love these back-handed, all the time. Good, he's thought about it, he does. ⁓ There is a philosophy of life I have. I'm teasing you. But ⁓ I think it's... Paul Fattinger (07:51) Good, you thought about this. Sounds great. No, no, no, no, I was, was an appreciation. Marc Winter (08:13) You know, we talked in previous episodes. There's some really shitty American exports that come to Europe like Halloween or Valentine's Day, etc. That are just basically commercial events. Well, but they're commercial events. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my point. Exactly. Yeah. The only the only negative thing is that Turkey is not so great. But ⁓ as a tradition, it's a baseline cheap bird. Paul Fattinger (08:21) Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say shitty, but they're just not our traditions. Thanksgiving I would like to have. Thanksgiving I like. It's great idea. Marc Winter (08:41) But I'd rather have duck or pheasant, but you can also just make that. So ⁓ it's special. So I'm excited for it. Paul Fattinger (08:51) let's talk about food How important is food for those? Yeah. Marc Winter (08:53) Alright, so do you want to hear about the... ⁓ in general? It may be the most... Well... The second most important thing. After a good wine. ⁓ Or actually, no, maybe it's the most important thing. Okay, okay, yeah. It's like... Paul Fattinger (08:58) Yeah. Yeah, it's just, I think it's on the same level. I mean, obviously it's coming together and so on and blah, blah. But if you came together, let's face it like this, that's actually a good one, right? If you came together, all of your family, all of your loved ones, mean, blah, blah, blah, and you had a shitty meal, would that be better than coming together with half of your family and having a great meal? Marc Winter (09:28) ⁓ that is. You know, I mean, I would take the whole family and the shitty meal, as unfortunate as that is, only because I, my family's pretty great. Paul Fattinger (09:41) You took over the person. I would... No, not because I don't like my family, but it's just like, you know, I mean, you know. Marc Winter (09:44) Yeah. I know this is going. Paul Fattinger (09:55) Depends. Okay, listen, I think I'm gonna get myself into real trouble here. Marc Winter (09:55) Listen. No, no, no, I don't want you to get in trouble. It's not that I'm better. I think there's enough harmony in my family, which is unique, I should say, I think for many, that we all get along. We all swallow odd moments when they should be swallowed in service of the greater good. It's not like everyone is a good thing and of a higher idea of being together. Yeah, I mean, if there wasn't any swallowing, there would be no. Paul Fattinger (10:22) That's That's nice. Marc Winter (10:29) not of pride and service of the greater good. There would be all kinds of chaos. Probably my mother wouldn't be invited back to many of these ⁓ holiday parties. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (10:38) Okay, let's also not get you into trouble right away. like, okay, I think good food, mean, like with everything, good food is kind of what brings people together. And I think it's also the act of preparing that and is a big part of tradition. My family, in my case, usually my mom, but then also others helping her preparing certain dishes that kind of carry some memories. ⁓ What is your typical Thanksgiving meal? mean, it's some kind of bird, right? Is it always the same bird? I mean, not the same type of bird. Marc Winter (11:11) Yeah, it's always the turkey, always the turkey. And then the real star of Thanksgiving, I think most people would say, are the sides. When you have your stuffing, your yams, your Brussels sprouts, everything is just, yeah. Because the bird, turkey, let's be honest, it's a shitty bird. You can make it good. I have a. Paul Fattinger (11:21) Hmm. Fantastic. Yeah, but you need the gravy. It is dry. It is kind of dry-ish. Could be dry-ish. Marc Winter (11:40) The trick, the trick, the 22nd trick I'll share for our listeners is that if you marinate it in buttermilk for about 48 hours and spatchcock it, it's gonna be a pretty very decent bird. Like something you'll have multiple. Yeah, great odd title. Spatchcock is when you remove the spine of the bird. So, and you can flatten it. You push it down like this, so it's, know. Paul Fattinger (11:56) What is spatch cocking? Huh. Marc Winter (12:09) It doesn't have that big kind of gap. And basically, cooks much more evenly in the oven. So it gets crispy. Yes, exactly. So it's. Paul Fattinger (12:09) Huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's not like only would the breasts get so dry and the... Have you ever fried a turkey? Marc Winter (12:23) No. of course you were in your, of course you did, exactly. Yeah? For Thanksgiving? Yeah? Was it awesome? Paul Fattinger (12:25) I have. in Ohio. Seriously. Yeah, for Thanksgiving. It was insane. It was insane. It was insane because I also think we did in the garage, which is totally stupid, you know, next to a car and probably a canister of petrol, smoking motherfuckers, of course, we were smoking. And there was like, you know, a huge tank of like, I don't Marc Winter (12:49) Yeah, when you're smoking, exactly that's the next thing. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (12:55) gallons of, don't know, whatever frying oil and fat. then, know, I don't know how it was hooked into the bird, but we kind of, you know, kind of let it down. It was a big motherfucker too, like this. then it all went crazy. But it was quite, I don't really remember, to be honest with you, but it was the point of entry of the bird into the oil, you know, the descent into the demise of the hot burning fat. Marc Winter (13:08) Yeah, of course. Paul Fattinger (13:25) was quite awesome, Yeah. Marc Winter (13:26) Must have been fucking awesome. Have you, do you know what a turducken is? Paul Fattinger (13:30) Yeah, when you put a duck inside a turkey. Of course I know that. Marc Winter (13:34) ⁓ No, ⁓ it's a turkey that you shove the duck and then you shove in the chicken. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you forgot the chicken. Paul Fattinger (13:39) It's not. Yeah, yeah, I forgot about the chicken. I got the picture in my head was like already obstructing me from the next level of sodomy that is going on here. Marc Winter (13:52) Exactly. I have still yet to order it. I'm actually tempted to order it since my mom isn't around. Paul Fattinger (14:04) Why do you have to order three birds, you stick them into each other? Marc Winter (14:08) No dude, because you actually have to de-bone them. I think a proper Turducken is de-boned. So it's actually quite, there's a bit of skill. It's not just some, I mean. Paul Fattinger (14:12) Mmm. Have I ever told you, no, I don't think it was, have I ever told you about this cordon bleu I ate in Austria? That was a fusion of a duck and a chicken. Like their chicken legs. It was called chimere. Like it had this, it cost like 120 euros and you had to split it. But it was basically the legs, like the leg meat of those. Marc Winter (14:33) No, what was that? Paul Fattinger (14:47) And it even had the legs still on like this, you know, on the side. it like, but it was one side was a duck. The other side was another bird. And in the middle was ham and cheese. And it was all, it was all, ⁓ it was all deep fried. It was like, we gotta have, we're gonna have to go there and have it next time. It's actually insane. It was really, really good. I'm going to have to share a picture of this. I'm going to, this one, I'm going to cut it in a picture. Let me think a picture. Marc Winter (15:06) It's, it's, yeah please do. ⁓ It sounds, it sounds either filthy or those people should be arrested. I can't tell, you know? Paul Fattinger (15:15) No, it is actually really, it is really great I'm going to upload this as we talk. Marc Winter (15:18) It's funny. Well, actually, just to to just to top off weird fusions, I've been invited to a restaurant this coming week for and their specialty is frog legs Kiev, you know, like chicken Kiev, but with frog legs, which kind of bananas, but it's supposed to be just delicious. Look, headline is record off post. Paul Fattinger (15:36) Okay, we're completely, we went completely off the rails here. I mean, this is insane. Holidays, Thanksgiving, your favorite holiday because it's agnostic of family, friends, religion. There is good food. What else? Marc Winter (15:51) Excellent playback. I think there's less, like, it's pretty simple to get done. Like, the food is fairly simple for things. It's not like rocket science here. You know, we're basically roasting vegetables and stuff. People just like chill out. They get drunk, share stories. We don't have weird uncles in my family that are going to, you know. or excessively weirdos that you have to worry about, everyone's just kind of cozy, or when we do a friendsgiving, which is another thing, where it's just all your friends. I think it's just a really, yeah, yeah, it's just a really sweet. Paul Fattinger (16:22) That sounds fun. I like that. And how does it compare to Christmas for you? Marc Winter (16:29) So Christmas has the added element of the presence and the kids you have to satisfy and the religious aspect to it, find, ⁓ I love Christmas tradition, but obviously I have, you know, not to take a super, like the religion itself is something I could live without. So I think the, ⁓ Paul Fattinger (16:35) Fair enough, okay. Apart from that. Marc Winter (16:56) The beauty, the warmth of Christmas, the songs, the music, all that beautiful, that's been inspired by Christianity, it's been amazing. ⁓ But I don't need to do a Bible reading, that kind of thing. Paul Fattinger (17:14) So, like in terms of the family coming together and the meals you're having, is Thanksgiving bigger or is Christmas bigger? Marc Winter (17:23) Christmas is bigger. Paul Fattinger (17:25) Yeah, also in terms of the meal and the family coming together as a but is that your family because your parents are, know, from Germany and Portugal respectively or is that Marc Winter (17:29) Totally, Yeah, so it's my family. And for the Americans, I can't really speak to the different. Sorry, I I know I'm American. But like for the American tradition is I think the Americans do a Christmas ham traditionally and a Thanksgiving turkey. That's what I think of. they don't do a very large progression, is what I understand. Paul Fattinger (17:51) Yeah. Yeah, but what's the bigger event? Marc Winter (18:02) For the country or for my family? Paul Fattinger (18:04) For your family? It's bigger. Yeah, I mean, okay, interesting. mean, for us, if we don't have Thanksgiving, there's no question. I don't know if I should, should we speak about Christmas now? Because it makes me think about Christmas because we don't, I don't have a Thanksgiving to talk about, man. So that's kind of like. Marc Winter (18:06) Christmas, Christmas for sure. No, but we're entering the holiday season. So I think it's actually really interesting to talk about. are lot of, I think, tensions, both. Paul Fattinger (18:30) So my favorite holiday by far at that is Christmas. By far. ⁓ Why? Because of the presence, because of the... How do you say it? Like the whole unfolding of the event. We have this thing in Austria, so for all of our listeners in the States, we don't have Santa Claus coming. We have this thing that's called Christkind, which is... Marc Winter (18:34) Why? Paul Fattinger (18:59) you know, looks like an angel is supposed to be baby Jesus flying around giving presents away. And so it was where it is, right? I mean, in Austria and I think also in the south of Germany like this. this Christmas comes on Christmas Eve. And so in my family, and I think in many families in Austria, was like this that ⁓ on the night before Christmas Eve the 23rd, the living room would go... Marc Winter (19:11) Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Paul Fattinger (19:27) like would be closed and would go dark in a sense that you couldn't look into it from any angle and that you trust me, I've tried as a child. So the blinds would be down, the doors would be closed. Those are glass doors in my parents' house. So they would be hung so you really couldn't see inside. And my parents would put the tree in that we might have bought together or actually back in the days we would even go into the forest of my grandfather. Marc Winter (19:40) That's a great ritual. Paul Fattinger (19:51) father and pick them up and they would all look absolutely terrible. But it was really, you know, because they were not like grown to be Christmas trees. We just, you know, found a tree and kind of like, you know, my mind was always like rolling her eyes. What the fuck did you bring? You know, like the poorest tree that was kind of giving up on life and we would feel sorry and take it home. Anyways. And so then on that evening and during the next day, my parents would, you know, do the tree and do the decorations and stuff. Marc Winter (19:53) Awesome. Paul Fattinger (20:20) And then on 24th, you know, it's kind of, you know, as kids, especially the anticipation will be so high that, you know, we do different things to kind of get by. And I would also go to church, I think, and, blah, blah, blah. And then when it finally got dark and we would assemble somewhere in the house, a bit away from, the living room. then usually my dad would sneak away and he would say, Oh, I need new batteries for my camera. That was kind of like in the eighties. Right. So you had a camera. And then he would sneak away and he would open his whole thing up and he would light the candles because there were real candles on the tree. He would put, you know, holy night on and he would, you know, he would ring that little bell, which signifies that Chris Kintchis came and rang the bell. And we would just run down the stairs and there was this living room and this tree, you know, with those candles and they had those, you magic candles that do all the fizzy stuff and it would smell and it was... Marc Winter (21:11) Yeah. Paul Fattinger (21:14) And then you'd see all of the presents kind of like draped around it. And that was the best. it continues. There was always a Bible reading. I always read this passage of the Bible, which is I think our fig leaf, you know, kind of business that we, you know, kind of still pretend that that's an important thing. And my mom always cared about this and we would have, you know, a glass of champagne and my mom would always do, you know, a goose liver. Marc Winter (21:17) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (21:39) pate on her own and there's all these in the cookies, know, that she would do 15 different kinds of cookies and then opening the presents and then we would have a big meal. Amazing. that's kind of so and to this day and I think actually up to the age of 33 when I had, you know, kids for the first time, I refused to participate in any of the preparation of this event. So I would never do it. No, I was like, fuck this shit. Like I'm still a kid. Marc Winter (21:45) Yeah, yeah, same, same. What? Jesus dude, what kind of- Paul Fattinger (22:08) Absolutely, kids like I don't want to see this. I still want to I want to believe I'm a believer there is Chris Kent and I want this I didn't want to let go of that feeling of and I really always did In that sense I really am and I love it for the kids. I absolutely do it's it's Even when we spent you know, Marc Winter (22:19) You're romantic. You're a real... I mean, listen, hold on. It should also be said. mean... actually, well look, Vienna in Christmas time is an extraordinarily beautiful place. Paul Fattinger (22:38) Except I think I've had one Christmas in my life in Vienna, but yeah. But at Christmas time, yeah, fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Marc Winter (22:42) I mean, but Christmas time is what I said, not Viennese. So, I mean, it's, know, New York is its own kind of version of that, but I think like for real romantic, it's hard not to be just stirred by the decor, by the commitment of it all. And so, I mean, I think you, it's called irresistible feeling in my view, you know, of how you guys kind of do it really well. Paul Fattinger (22:55) No, it's beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great, it's beautiful. yeah, so that's why for me Christmas is great. Yeah, and it comes like all the other holidays, too, also with lots of family. And that can also be a challenge. I I think that's the interesting part. Marc Winter (23:22) Yeah, well, I think that's the thing to talk about exactly. like, okay. Well, I want to compliment your best holiday moment with mine. ⁓ So which is similar. I think ⁓ my the best feeling I can take away from from that will be it would be also a Christmas holiday or just a holiday when we all got together. It was usually Christmas. Like my parents had this playroom in our house. where all the kids, all the cousins got together and there were like, you know, eight of us, 12 of us at some point, know, depending who was coming from Germany or Portugal and the pillow fights, the video games, the toys, everything was opening their stuff. mean, this was like, you know, basically, yeah, you know, was, was its own advertisement for a kid store, you know, but I think that's when I felt like, God, my... Paul Fattinger (24:08) Yeah, Bonanza was a crit, yeah. Marc Winter (24:18) This family is awesome. You just feel the warmth and togetherness and obviously the beauty of it all. ⁓ Well, I'm just curious, those are our baseline. So I think we have established we both have an amazing or really warm memories of these holidays and these holiday moments. How has that evolved? Or have you struggled to maintain that feeling, that fuzziness? the warm and fuzziness, I mean. Or is it there for you all the time? Paul Fattinger (24:50) I think this one, that very moment is always super special, but obviously, mean, it evolves over time. find it also, especially when I think about Christmas and that, you know, when we celebrate together as a family, we would do that, you know, at my parents' place in Graz. now things have changed a little bit because my brother has moved there. But before that, You know, my sister also lives out of town and has two kids and myself with three kids. We will be there and stay at my parents' house and it will be just very, very crowded. And you could feel the stress level also that rises with that, within everybody. And ⁓ so after a couple of days, I usually felt like this was enough. I wanted out a little bit. Marc Winter (25:29) Yeah, of course. Paul Fattinger (25:43) And in a good way, really. And I also think, if I remember back even in the time before kids, when you came back as a family, sometimes you feel kind of thrown back into old patterns. And I don't want to say you see old demons coming back, but you kind of see, you know, all of a sudden there's a weird, you know, my family isn't so great in kind of like bottling things up. Marc Winter (25:47) Yeah. This is what I want to talk about. Paul Fattinger (26:12) Then, I mean, there are some parts, but there are other parts like myself who then like also is like, fuck this shit, I'm gonna escalate this now. No, it wouldn't be about that. It would be about something else. It would be about something else. And usually it would be one of my siblings kind of like taking the piss on me that I wouldn't help and do anything, which is partly true and partly is. Marc Winter (26:19) This wine is terrible. Who brought this shit exactly? Put it in the sauce! You just submitted they were right. Yeah. Paul Fattinger (26:38) It's partly true and partly is them still being mad about the fact that I probably never did when I was young, but okay, I'm gonna get over it. And that's kind of what I would say. And then that would escalate a little bit and then someone would have to make a point and blah, blah. And that has changed again, I would say, into more mellowness and acceptedness about the whole thing. there was a phase, so I think there's kind of like different phases. It's like this. You know, obviously the childhood phase and then the coming of age phase where all of a sudden there are five adults sitting at the table that also have to kind of find themselves. And then you throw in all these kids and then it becomes a whole different craziness. Marc Winter (27:16) I, ⁓ so here's, let me put this out, see if it resonates. So you've been in my house, so once, but still, we talked about this. So like this house that my parents run is still the magnet that everyone comes to for the holidays. The challenge is often that my mom, you know, has been a bit of the matriarch here. You know, sometimes my aunt helps, and people help, right? But she's like the, this command and control, yeah, to a degree. As she's gotten older, it's gotten, here's the best tension. She delegates to me, here's what you're making. I was like, mom, here's the menu. I will literally, as you know, we both love to cook, right? I'm like, hey, here's what it is. A big list, it's amazing, I went to this cookbook, blah, blah, blah, blah. She's like, cool, sounds great. Completely ignores it, basically tears up the menu, right? Goes to the shop. Paul Fattinger (27:44) boss. ⁓ Marc Winter (28:11) buys, I don't know, $800 worth of food, right? Dumps it, like, in the kitchen. She's like, what I bought, right? And then she's like, make something, right? And then I was like, cool. So this thing I just sent you, she's like, Mark, no one wants to eat that, right? As soon as she says that, right? No one wants to eat that. Like, the temperature, she basically shot me to the moon, right? I'm already ready to, it's like fighting words, right? Paul Fattinger (28:29) Ha ha ha. nice. Thank you. Hahahaha Marc Winter (28:38) I was like, no one wants to, know, so we start there. That's usually where we start. And then I have to start cooking. And then here's the funny part. I start, and Vera, my wife is amazing, because she's like a great, she already knows the dynamics. She's like, okay guys, while you fight, I'm gonna chop the carrots, clean this stuff, like, gonna, it's a good time. Exactly. But then in the end, I find myself. Basically the sous chef of the meal, is the most frustrating thing. So my mom decides what's going to be made. And then my brother ⁓ does exactly kind of what you do, which is basically because he had two kids or has two kids or whatever, goes upstairs and takes a nap for precisely three hours. ⁓ Exactly. I knew it. You're the guy. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Like watching the kids are like, that's entertaining. Right. And Paul Fattinger (29:22) That's exactly what I do. That's exactly what I do. After I probably have a few glasses of wine while watching them and I'll be like, I'm good. Thank you. I might also nibble some things, know, work freshly cut. Amazing. Marc Winter (29:37) ⁓ it's this funny tipping point. And I have to tell you, the moment I will call the worst, I think, like where I just really just blew at it was when ⁓ for one Thanksgiving, it was at my aunt's place and we were supposed to make a salad, right? And I said, cool. I'll make this like kale salad that is like beautiful, you know, lemon, you know, really simple lemon garlic, beautiful with shaved almonds, toasted, et cetera. And then, you know, I prepare it, et cetera. And then like as we're ready to go to my aunt's house, I see my mom just chopping kale. So I was like, what the are you doing? Right? She's like, I'm making a kale salad. Cause I think your salads are gonna be a little bit too garlicky for people. No one wants to eat that. Right? So I basically... Lost it, took my mom's walked out into the woods and threw it out. I said, it's for the deer. Yes, dude, I've lost it, right? It's gotten much better since then, but that was the... Paul Fattinger (30:33) Way to de-escalate the situation. So maybe we came around to the fact why your mom isn't joining you guys for Thanksgiving this year. Marc Winter (30:42) No, it's no she's she's not because for a whole for a medical reason it doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah But I actually then saved some of that salad even though I threw half of it out and then I saved it We went to my aunt's place and and I had her taste both and she'd like mine the best I felt better, but yeah Paul Fattinger (30:46) It doesn't matter. I was just kidding. No, but I think what's really interesting about those events is, mean, apart from the fact that they're very beautiful and I'm a huge fan of those traditions and I'm actually very keen and almost pedantic to the fact that my kids and our kids also kind of get an idea of those traditions and have the same beautiful kind of memories, hopefully, that I had for those, which was also point of contention. Marc Winter (31:19) Yeah, 100%. Paul Fattinger (31:28) ⁓ that I had, you know, with, you know, my ex-wife sometimes because her being Italian and her family being somewhere else, would, you know, switch one year doing it there, one year doing it with her parents, which I loved also don't get me wrong, because the food was admittedly much better. Like, I mean, an Italian Christmas, mean, and also, know, Claudia and also her mom, and all of her sisters, amazing cooks. it was like... Marc Winter (31:51) For sure dude, for sure. Paul Fattinger (32:01) to die for, right? But the whole, what was missing was my whole kind of spectacle of unveiling the tree and the presents. So we always did what we called fake Christmas then, and a few days before that in Graz. this is how much I never wanted my kids to miss this. So that was a beautiful thing. So we always did fake Christmas. Also this year we're gonna do a fake Christmas. So that's the weekend before, whenever Christmas was, I would go to my parents' place and... Marc Winter (32:08) Yeah, of course. That's super interesting. Huh. Huh. Paul Fattinger (32:30) kind of forced me to do it twice because I wanted my kids to have this thing because every year felt a huge FOMO because of course, right? mean, how many years do you really have when they still believe in Santa or Chris Kind and actually are old enough to actually get it? That's maybe three or four years because when they're three, they start getting it. And then when they're eight, really, they kind of get it that there is no Chris Kind, you know? So I never wanted to, you know. Marc Winter (32:43) Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we should save some of that for our Christmas episode. I agree, I agree, mean, 100 % about raising kids and that. But do you agree though, I I find ourselves, mean, coming back to even the theme of this podcast of Guys Like Us, like I feel like we're in this tension point of like we're actually, we're shouldering two eras, know? The era of our past, which we wanna like carry forward and preserve and, you know. illuminate for our own children and then we also have to make it our own right in a modern way, you know Paul Fattinger (33:28) Yeah, I mean, I got distracted there. And but what I wanted to say is exactly there's two things. One is this what I find really interesting is that when you get into these whole situations that you also want to live, they are kind of a pressure cooker for old wounds, patterns, whatever you want to call them dynamics. and and you throw in the alcohol and the wine. You some things is usually going to come out. So I find that is a very interesting one. think we could talk about and the second one is exactly what you said is like, when do you start kind of introducing your own traditions? Right. In a sense. And when are you, is it your own thing? And, you know, if you wanted to make it so blunt, when do your parents come to your place and you eat what you cook and it goes down the way you want it to go. So Marc Winter (33:54) Yeah, just elevates. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Paul Fattinger (34:21) And I guess those two are intertwined, right? mean, those points one and two, the dynamics, the family dynamics, and the other one, it's kind of... Marc Winter (34:25) Bye. Well, this is actually, you're already kind of hitting on kind of where I would want it to go next if there were any tips, you know, as we kind of navigate this, because I think as nice as it is to be hosted, I would much rather host. Do you agree? Paul Fattinger (34:45) Yeah, me too. Me too. Absolutely. ⁓ For me, was just mainly that my parents had a better place to host and it was still also kind of for them and getting all the grandkids together. But I think we hosted it once. I don't really remember. I really don't anymore. But I would. Yeah, we did once. Yeah. Marc Winter (35:07) No, because then you can assert your own control of your vision. You know what I mean? And I think that's the thing. And I've come to accept this, I should say this. I shared this little anecdote with my mom and the kale salad, but what's gotten better is that I've just accepted it. said, okay, I'm not in control. I'm here to like, yes, I have high ambition, but it's not my house. She wants to make it something like this. Fine, no problem. It's not terrible, it's fine. And sometimes good is better than great. The journey to great in this family stuff. And we have our own vision. imagine our holiday parties would look very similar with great meals, great wine, great music, great friends. would curate it all. I imagine it would look at 80, 90 % the same and we would feel, which is why we're friends, by the way. Paul Fattinger (35:59) Yeah, which is exactly also what I kind of thought under under point two ⁓ is an, that's just to make a little detour there when I, when is it also a bridge to our last episode. When I did my first journey with, with Johannes about a year and a half or so ago, it was an MDMA journey, like kind of like an MDMA assisted therapy session. And it was amazing and we can talk about a separate thing, obviously when I got out of this and then I went straight actually to see, you know, to my parents place by the lake and I was very aware and obviously connected to myself and also aware of, know, you know how it is, right? And I saw and then I went into my, into the environment of where my parents were and you know, Marc Winter (36:29) Okay. Paul Fattinger (36:58) things were how it was and I was very much aware of how these things were and I saw them very vividly and I felt them and I felt things that hurt me when I felt them and it kind of made me take a step back and I guess be hurt and not happy about it in a sense and also resentful in a sense and then I saw all these things that also then influence you and make you who you are and all of a sudden you see them and Marc Winter (37:07) Mmm. Interesting. Hmm. Paul Fattinger (37:25) And while there is no one and nothing to blame, which you know, in the very beginning, when you kind of start realizing it's hard to actually, you know, kind of that path of being all holy and, you know, all forgiven. And, you know, the first reaction is more like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? So, so all these things become, you know, the way certain things your dad does or your mom does all of a sudden becomes so apparent and you see it so clear and you're like, what the fuck is this? I want to run away. Okay. Marc Winter (37:41) Yeah, for sure. Paul Fattinger (37:54) So that was two summers ago. I'd say last summer, obviously on there and nothing had changed. Why should have, you know, and probably would never will. And I think that's the big point. It never will. ⁓ but I've somehow and not by consciously doing it and to the face of accepting this, just still seeing it, laughing about it and saying, that's what it is. And you're not going to change it. And also they're not going to be around for, you know, ever. And if you know, you know, for the rest of their lives are pissed about some things that probably happened 20 years ago, which really, you know, they've always tried their best anyways and so on. What's the point? and when you enter that and by just except accepting, which I can do for three days, I think on day four, starts pissing me off. mean, I'm not a saint, but if you can do that for however long you can do it, this whole holiday business becomes much better. And I think it's exactly what you have just said is by accepting. Marc Winter (38:22) Hmm. Paul Fattinger (38:51) how those things are, letting them go and just laugh about it maybe or smile on it, you know? Marc Winter (38:56) This is for another episode, you know, it's so funny. There's a beauty and tragedy of what you said, and I feel it too. Isn't it amazing that we try to create an experience for our own children that will last them their lifetime, that will mark their lives like we opened this podcast? And we talk about going through that experience with our parents, where I can make it only four days. Paul Fattinger (39:19) Hmm. Marc Winter (39:25) or three days. And there's, when I was a kid, this would be, I would spend weeks, no problem, in that kind of environment to play, to be warm, care for. And I think that's, I mean, I guess that's the reality of transcendence between generations or growing out of your skin, but it's just a market lesson and just in this dialogue, is I think about ⁓ Paul Fattinger (39:35) Hmm. Marc Winter (39:55) you know, what we've long for when we were kids and what we try to get through, you could argue, you know, as, ⁓ as adults, you know. Paul Fattinger (40:07) Yeah, but I guess it's also right to see, you can see very negatively, right? In a sense, say, you know, you're trying to do the best you can, you create those experiences and you kind of keep creating them. And at one point, your kid just wants to be done with it after four days. You know, that's kind of like the negative connotation of this, but it's going to, the same is going to happen to our kids by the way. But I think it's, it's part of becoming an adult in your own, in your own person and understanding your own boundaries and, and, and, and, you know, And I think it's fine. Marc Winter (40:40) I'm not, it's yeah, it's just a general observation. And I actually think maybe the root of that might be control. And, you know, our, how, he jokes. Did he just say control? Like that was some big insight of pop psychology, but there is kind of interesting of how willing we are to give that up when we were younger and how unwilling we are when we're older. We have to work to do that. And when your parents are older, they don't want to. So it's just, you know, that's the interesting bridge of it all. Paul Fattinger (41:25) guys to control is it freedom? don't know. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, but I mean, to round it up. Marc Winter (41:28) Fair enough. Yeah. Well, that's the flip side. Well, it's the flip side of it, right? So it's anyway. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (41:36) Holidays are an amazing thing and I think that's what they're, I don't know if they're actually there for this, but if we didn't have them, would we ever come together like this, you know, as families as often, you know? And so it's just our society's way of making sure we do connect and I think that's an important piece. And if you see it as that and not as an act of performance, as you just said, right, if you kind of let go of the perfect meal. Marc Winter (41:56) I agree. Paul Fattinger (42:05) you let go of the idiosyncrasies of your family's things that might piss you off because they always create stress. I think, you know, they're just an amazing time to reunite. And if you just count how many times there are in your life, and if you, especially when you look forward, how many, probably not so many you're going to have like this, you know, you're going to make the best out of it. Marc Winter (42:28) Let me add to that and agree. A few episodes ago, we were talking about the art of manufacturing rituals, know, with the birthdays, when you bring people together, and how we should lead into those as a great way of convening. And these are one handed to you on the calendar each year, right? You don't have to manufacture them, their gift, and they hold their tensions. Paul Fattinger (42:36) Mmm. Exactly. Marc Winter (42:56) If I could offer a ⁓ tip for what matters is to simplify, let go and just acknowledge these things for what they are, which are convenings of your loved ones, you know, and it's not about manufacturing the best dinner party, you know, you can do that on your own time. Paul Fattinger (43:11) Exactly. What you can do, and this is a bridge to the last episode, you can use them as a tool for self-development to see what actually happens to you. And when you expose yourself to a very stressful situation, that is a trigger fest for patterns and dynamics and whatnot. And you can see what alcohol does to you handling with it and so on. So if you manage, right? And if you want to see how long is the break between trigger and reaction, Marc Winter (43:27) That's true. Paul Fattinger (43:47) and how much shorter it can get over the course of a week and a bottle of wine, that is the best way of experiencing that. Marc Winter (43:55) It's a great good insight, a good way to close and I love this notion of trigger fest that just sounds like. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (44:01) It's a trigger phrase. I think for all of us, it has to be. It has to be because all of what shaped you is around you at once in a high octane environment or a high proof environment. So yeah. But hey, a nice one. I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures of the turkey. Marc Winter (44:06) Yeah, that's true. Paul Fattinger (44:24) And seeing how the sides went and if you could actually keep your cool with... mean, this time you're going to be in charge, so then that's clear. Here we go so much for that, like, finally, finally. Marc Winter (44:24) Yes, yes, yes, yes. Dude, it's the best fun. mean, actually, this is the thing I'm most looking forward to is like she's got exactly exactly. It's going to be turducken and the feast of three birds that I want to. Paul Fattinger (44:43) my God, my God, I mean, listen, our closing segment, Idiot and Terminator of the Week. I got something which I don't know if it's an idiot or a terminator. Can I start? I'm like kind of leaning towards idiocy. So it's been a couple of weeks already that the Christmas markets are out in Vienna. And it's yes, I think since last weekend. I mean, I know last weekend they were there already. I think they might've been already there before. I think they start a week earlier every year now, which and the city is packed. You have no idea. It is. Marc Winter (44:56) Please. What? us. Paul Fattinger (45:22) I think this is the busiest time of the year for Vienna in terms of tourism and they do a great job So that's kind of terminator side of it that I think the city of Vienna and and doing a great job to maximize that the absolute You know F out of this is crazy. I don't like it though And that's why it's my edits of the week because to me is a too early Well now it's nice and cold and at least it kind of fits, you know into the whole scenery It's too busy for me. ⁓ You can't go anywhere and Marc Winter (45:37) Right, right. Paul Fattinger (45:50) I am not a huge fan of Christmas markets. gotta tell you, I have to disclose this. I don't like the mulled wine. I mean, I like it, but I don't feel shit if I drink it. It's not great usually. It's too busy. It's a bit too manufactured. Marc Winter (46:04) I think they've lost something as they've scaled, that's for sure. ⁓ I... Yeah, no, you should, and I'll second that. ⁓ First of all, the earliest time I've seen. I did this ⁓ work session in Holland, I can't remember if I mentioned this. ⁓ October 13th, I was just checking on my phone to look at it. October 13th, I was in Rotterdam, in Holland. Paul Fattinger (46:07) Yeah. So, 80th of the week, Christmas markets. I'm going to put it out there. already at Christmas markets. That's insane. Marc Winter (46:34) Yeah, not markets, just Christmas decorations. It's insane. And I went to the woman in the famous little market there, this is bougie little thing, high design. I was like, so basically, what the fuck, guys like, like Christmas, she's like, well, know, it's like, her response is, well, like, you know, it's a bit of a dark time with us, you know, with the Russia war, with other stuff, you know, we just feel like we, I was like, Paul Fattinger (46:38) It's the same. Yeah, what's going on? in a hundred years, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. Marc Winter (47:02) Yeah, dude, mean, honestly, like, like Christmas now, that maybe the action now that's a good case for Halloween. But no, we still have the same I as soon as Halloween ended, I went down to the market downstairs in my building to grab a coffee. And I was listening to, you know, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer on the radio, and they play this Christmas shit. And I looked at them. I was like, you're signing up for two months of this, guys, really? Anyway. Paul Fattinger (47:30) two ⁓ months of ⁓ last Christmas, which I haven't heard yet this year, but that's fine. Marc Winter (47:33) But the... No, okay, well, that's good. Well, I'll tell you this. least the Christmas markets open in New York right after Thanksgiving. So they'll open up on Friday. Which is more acceptable. Yeah, yeah. Paul Fattinger (47:42) Yeah, I mean, you have the secrets of events, right? With Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas. So yeah, I mean, fair enough. What I do love though, and that's beautiful. I mean, if you are in Vienna, is what you said before, right? If you go down those main roads, you know, the pedestrian zones in town, the Christmas decorations are insane. Insanely beautiful. is insanely beautiful with the old buildings and stuff. So that's, that's fantastic. So that's why people come to Vienna. Bring us your money. Leave it here. ⁓ We appreciate it. Marc Winter (47:59) Yeah, stunning. This sounds like a Scrooge. Paul Fattinger (48:12) Yeah, yeah, or a green shit a little bit, right? In a case. So and what's your terminator of the week? wonder. Marc Winter (48:19) So I have ⁓ been reflecting, I watched a presentation from a friend about ⁓ music that impacted their lives, or soundtrack to their lives. And was thinking about a soundtrack to my life ⁓ was very often waking up on a Saturday morning and my dad would always blast ⁓ either Bruce Springsteen or Creedence Clearwater. And I just recently put on those ⁓ Paul Fattinger (48:29) Mm-hmm. Marc Winter (48:46) recent Bruce Springsteen records, I was thinking of him and there's a great song ⁓ on the tunnel of love album called tougher than the rest. I recommend that for all of our listeners there because you know, Springsteen said it was the greatest love song he ever wrote and it's simple. It's so understated and reminded me of my dad and I was just thinking of the boss and sometimes you need go back to some of the greats as you think about what's forward and ⁓ it's a good one. We can post it. Paul Fattinger (49:12) Nice. That would have been a good closing because mine is much more boring. I had a really busy week because I told you, I started this new job as an interim executive and interim CEO or MD of this company in Austria. And as a start, I did a tour through the offices in Austria. So I a little bit of a tour d'Autriche, which was fun. Marc Winter (49:20) Ha! Paul Fattinger (49:42) And ⁓ it was really, really interesting to meet lots of new people. ⁓ my terminator goes to them because they were super open and very nice. Ask very good questions, critical questions were open, honest. It was a really, really cool feeling actually to be in. I felt really blessed to have this opportunity to kind of, you know, get into a completely new culture, you know, in a group of people that also some of them obviously have worked at those places for years and years. And it was quite special actually reflecting on that. Marc Winter (50:15) My friend, let me just say, ⁓ in the spirit of Thanksgiving, I'm so grateful to be able to do this with you. ⁓ Paul Fattinger (50:23) Likewise, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving, my friend. Ciao. Marc Winter (50:25) Happy Thanksgiving. Ciao.