How to Stop Rehearsing Conversations in Your Head | Ep 54

Paul (00:00) I was just at this beautiful forest lake with my wife and three kids, thirty degrees, peak of summer. It couldn't have been more perfect. Nobody there, the kids playing in the water, us lying in the shade. And I'm thinking and thinking and thinking about one thing only. So the question is, how do I get things that are a total mind fuck out of my head during free time, during family time, when I can't solve them there anyways? And there's nothing else I can do because it's just so damn sad that some crap which in the end doesn't matter at all smears itself over all the rest of your life. Marc (00:38) Duch. it's gonna stop when my parents tell me how proud they are of me and that they want nothing else. Paul (00:42) No, this is bullshit. Marc (00:51) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new to this podcast, then why would you be? But this is the podcast, but all the things that you start thinking about when you're in your prime. And I don't need to tell you that. That's about midlife. you'll hear stories about family, readership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, in short, the things that help shape us and continue to move us. And we've got a great show for you today. today is about rumination. and its power and its power over us. I'm your host, Mark Winter, an entrepreneur, a self conceived artist, a husband and father of two, based in cloudy New York City, and I'm joined by my dear friend and co host Paul. Paul (01:34) From beautifully sunny Vienna at the cusp of the next heat wave. I'm an entrepreneur, a father of three, a lover of rabbit holes, and a first class ruminator. And I wanna say though, I've gotten better. I've gotten better. Marc (01:52) I was about to say, I bet you were ruminating a lot. Ha ha good. Paul (01:57) So maybe I can share some of these things that that that helped me or I I think at least did. in in this episode. It's gonna be interesting. However, I'm only gonna be aided by some mere Austrian Viennese tap water, I'm afraid. Because yeah, you're gonna listen to it later as my idiot of the week I prepared. I'm I'm gonna yeah. I'm preparing. I'm hydrating. I'm prehydrating. What are you Marc (02:18) w we all know why you're you're preparing. You're hydrating. Yeah. Paul (02:24) having, Mark? Marc (02:24) Yeah. Also the same. I'm actually hydrating, but I I have similar plans to you this night, Well, we've been ruminating on on how to make this the best episode it can be, so join in. Paul (02:35) Hey, so how's it been? Marc (02:38) Hey, it's it's been great. It's been great. can you believe we're at the end of July? What a year. No, it's insane. Paul (02:45) No, I can't. Yeah. You know you know what also happens at the end of July? It's the end of tuna season in the Mediterranean. Marc (02:55) Ha Wow. I I I have a feeling I'm being set up for a for a for a good story. Tell me. Paul (03:06) You are. I mean, this is my Terminator of the week. Is I I went tuna fishing with my oldest son for his birthday, a gift that he got Marc (03:15) Right. Paul (03:15) from his mother and his grandmother. And I was the one executing it with him on the boat with the fishing captain. And we actually caught a 85 centimeter long skip jack. And on top of that, we obviously killed it and gutted it, and then I filleted it, and three days later. We made amazing tuna tataki, tuna tatar, and sashimi, all with the help of our good friend Toby from Mochi, who even made it happen because he owns a chain of restaurants here in Vienna that is specialized in Japanese food, to bring sauces over with a colleague who also happened to travel to where I was and actually had a house very close by. So all the styles aligned for the fish to bite. And two things I learned. There is tuna in limited terrena, which I never got. And one of the biggest breeding grounds for bluefin tuna is actually between the Belaraks and Valencia. So they all go there and they lay their Marc (04:14) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (04:15) eggs like Salmon and then they go back and they go all the way back to the east coast of the US. It's insane. It's a very, very impressive animal. in fact, now that I know how to look for them, you can see them everywhere. So anyway, that was my terminator of the week. What's what's yours? Marc (04:31) You know, actually, I'm gonna switch my Terminator. I was gonna have one and now I'm gonna go to to to this story because you're inspiring me. the Terminator is myself and my dear friend Kawson, who showed up in the in in West Hampton completely hungover, like like barely able to talk after a fun night of of older parents getting lost. And we went to Citerella, which is a famous seafood shop, and we were gonna buy stuff for like paella and things like this. And as we're talking, Paul (05:00) Mm-hmm. Marc (05:00) and this is like at eight thirty in the morning, we saw a guy walk through with a giant slab of tuna. A And we just looked at each other, we're like we could barely speak, but we just pointed at the figures. We're like, We want that. And apparently it was freshly cough cut off. And this is probably something you also didn't know to bring the story. There's a tuna off the coast of Long Island, off of Montauk, in deep waters. Paul (05:26) Here we go. Here we go. Marc (05:28) Really, really big. And so we bought three pounds, whatever that is, you know, a kilo and a half of Paul (05:35) Almost. Yeah. Marc (05:36) yeah, yeah. And did the tatake and the tuna tartare on potato chips and it was so easy and so good. But let me ask you this. Paul (05:45) Amen. Marc (05:45) Do you do you do you did make you have more respect for sashimi sushi chefs or less with this stuff when you buy it? Paul (05:54) Not less. But it's easy to do. I mean, if you have good quality, I mean, yeah. Yeah. You do. I mean, yeah. Yeah, that that's fun. I mean, Marc (05:57) Yeah. That's what I was thinking. I was like, this shit is really easy. You just use some really great ingredients and some knife skills. Yeah. And it's not it's not a big deal. Paul (06:06) I actually like carving up meat, I have to say. That's something I really like to do. Anyways, any any idiotic thing that you can think of that happened to you or that you did in the Marc (06:19) yeah, I mean, I I continually t somehow know that I'm gonna get injured by my kids and let myself do it. And so you might be noticing I'm like spotting like a little whe blister here because my my two year old was throwing trucks around. I was like, that's fun, let's do one and I was right in front of his face and I just stood there and he blasted me with it. Like And I knew it was like, there's a high probability he's gonna think that's funny. And sure enough, here we go. Paul (06:53) Here we go. You know, I th I think I'm about to commit an idiotic thing, going out with a friend who had just texted, Are you going there by bike? So I wanted to, you know, align means of transport is like, Yeah, I'm going there. I'm not sure how I'm going home though Marc (07:12) Nice. This is a great tea up for the next for the next Paul (07:14) So this is a great tea up. So exactly. So I'm all anxious. I'm like, yes, let's go, let's get this started. Well, let's dive into this super interesting topic today about racing minds, rumination, however you want to call it. And the the inspiration for this was a a listener and friend who Marc (07:37) Okay. Paul (07:38) who texted me the other day and saying, I have another topic for you. Nothing came. So a few days later I'm like looking for topics. I text him, so dude, what the fuck is the topic? You know? And he's like he texts me this really long thing, and I'm gonna read some of it because I think it's a great entry into this episode. And he wrote, Marc (07:58) Mm. Paul (07:58) are there any approaches, techniques That go beyond the same old Aliby hacks. That's my question. The one I've been asking myself for years. And frankly, I couldn't Marc (08:10) Interesting. Paul (08:11) really give him a good answer. So here we are today, and I'm trying and we're hoping with your help that we can maybe bring some light into this or at least share the pain. At least share the pain. Marc (08:21) Fighting of the mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for sure. Paul (08:27) But let me ask you this first, just a short answer. When I read this to you, is this something that resonates with you or something where you're like, Marc (08:33) Hundred percent. Paul (08:34) Pooh, okay. Right. Marc (08:36) I I was trying to think like when I've actually been able to be truly present, you know, with an idea just so interesting. Like it's been a long time. Long time. That's how much this resonates with me. Paul (08:53) Okay, well, but that's that's big. So so my first question actually to us was, I want to kind of put this into a number. If you think of the longest you've ever chewed on something, ruminated on something, I don't know, it was days, weeks, I don't know, basically divided by how long it actually took then to resolve this shit, you know, in a conversation usually, you know, what's what's the number? Marc (09:20) I mean I I'll break it up in two categories, right? Longest is in my early twenties, should I break up with this girl or not, right? That gosh, that's that was that was a year's of of ruminating. Yeah, exactly. Exact no. Paul (09:33) Years divided by one minute text. Marc (09:40) I mean I was I was that was that was terrible, right? I was I was I was really, you know, it was crazy. And then, you know, should I change my job or a bunch of things and what should I do? Like that so those are the longest, right? Periods of time. I mean I imagine your fit you fit yours are the exact same categories. Paul (10:00) No, they are. I mean there's what was that was that sec to two categories already from your end? I'm sorry, I didn't want Marc (10:07) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (10:07) to yeah. No my I also have two things. And one is I mean if I think back to when I was, you know, fully working as an executive, I had a constant rumination of things and Marc (10:20) Mm. Mm. Paul (10:22) fear almost. That was one thing. But very concretely and where why why this has really hit a a spot with me, this this text was when I came back from my sabbatical about nine months ago, of a year of not not working to be honest. I mean, you know, I did things, but not worrying really too much. I I Marc (10:45) Mm. Paul (10:45) started this job and I had to, after the first weekend on on a Monday, I had to have a conversation with a professional services provider that I had to let go because, you know. He he wasn't, I don't I didn't think it was working well enough for this. And I had the kids the weekend, and the whole weekend I was thinking about this stupid conversation with this lawyer who basically I would have just thought, Hey, listen, man, it's not gonna work out anymore. Thank you for your services. Send me your final invoice and you know, peace. And it was a weekend where I and I was so dialed into the presence with my kids stuff and so on, and it Didn't get out of my head. Marc (11:28) my God. I it that's that okay. I'm so glad you brought that up. As I mean, there those are okay. The long ruminations of how how you should, you know, do with your job or or or be with your girl. I mean the the the fun the funny challenge about that is that there's no end date. You just have to decide, you know. Like what you're Paul (11:47) Exactly. Yeah. Marc (11:48) talking what you're talking about is like like a move that you know needs to be made at like with with a with a queer milestone, right? And you either have to decide, do I speed it up somehow, right? Or how do I get this this thing out of my head? Paul (12:03) Exactly. Marc (12:04) And I not to leap to solutions, but I've started to think through n like absolutely do everything you can to accelerate that conversation and make that move out of your head. Like if it's a Monday thing, can we do it Friday? So I don't think about it. Because I don't know how to let it go. Like I'm so Paul (12:24) Well, fair I mean I think the speeding up is is a good one, but like you think of the the friend who texted me or in this case, I mean it's not like I could have done it on Friday. What do you do if you are, you know, at the lake, you can't have the conversation or you are on the weekend, you can't call the guy up and fire him on a Saturday morning. You know, that's not gonna happen. So so what do you do then? Marc (12:44) No. Paul (12:44) I think, you know, that's that's kind of the interesting one and and I was trying obviously as always to find out why this happens. you know, with our brains, because I find this fascinating. Marc (12:54) Mm. Paul (12:56) So there is there is a bunch of guys, you know, called whatever, Masicampo and Baumeister, they're called. and they say that an unfinished goal keeps intruding on everything else you do, but the intrusion stops at the moment you make a concrete plan. With zero progress on the actual task. Your brain wasn't never asking for a solution, it was asking to be told when. So, Marc (13:24) Hmm. Paul (13:25) do you think this is correct? That would be an easy hack, right? Make a plan. Marc (13:32) I well it's actually it's a good distillation of something I've been trying to do. So like in the past, just to fully articulate, like I would be sweating out that type of decision. I have to fire someone or I have a big kind of tricky conversation. It's Monday, et cetera. Like like and all I would think about as the weekend on the weekend is how to rehearse it, you know, or or get it done and and it would take over your time. And then I realized very quickly, my God, I'm working overtime. Like way well more over time. Like like I don't have a life anymore. All I do is think about this and that needs to stop. And your the making a plan piece is my version of that is start to architect at least the bullet points of the conversation, you know, if it's a conversation that I that I that I need to have. And so at least feel prepared versus you know me well enough that I I I have high confidence in winging something. And so the more I plan for it, the less my brain thinks about it. Does that resonate? Paul (14:39) It resonates and brings up three things. one is in this case, in my weekend case, I had a plan. I had a plan. I did Marc (14:48) You did and you still d thought about it. Okay. Paul (14:50) have a plan and I was still ruminating. And I'm wondering then I do agree with more s smaller things like when I can't fall asleep at night and I have things that are in my head. I at in busy times I keep a a little red journal on my nightstand and I just write this down. You know, I I just write down. It's a because then it's out of my head. But it's small things. It's more like let's not forget this. And it's just my my head being just still going and I actually want to sleep. So I write these things down and off I go. when I do make a plan, and I think in this case I even might have even written it down in in a in a note or somewhere on my on my laptop. then I keep on going over that plan in my head again and I would practice it. And so if if things that I I think If things are big and they're really moving you, I'm not sure the plan works for me, to be honest. Is is not not enough. It works on the small Marc (15:44) I agree. Paul (15:44) things, but on the big issues it doesn't. Marc (15:47) I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, does it help Paul (15:49) And and and and Marc (15:52) at all when you make the plan? I mean like like reduces your anxiety by twenty five percent, by by thirty percent. Like how would you Paul (16:00) Let's say, listen, small things, a hundred percent big things, it gets better, but it doesn't solve the problem. My take. And and let's also be, you know, you know, why is that a problem? Obviously, if you want to spend time with your kids or with your loved ones or with whatever you do, you know, being in there rather than being in your head makes sense, but it also takes a real toll on you, right? Because it's a stressor, this stresses your body. Marc (16:29) let me ask you this. can you take me through a time where you've mapped out the plan, where you've where you've d like done everything and you're still ruminating nonstop. Because you're I think you are like the the king of rumination, if I recall, like for for beautiful like it's hard for you to to let go. Paul (16:44) It's very hard for me to stop. It's very hard for me to stop. And and and most of the times, to be honest, the things I actually don't remember a single time. that something turned out worse than I thought it was when I was ruminating before. The things that turned out badly were things that I didn't know were were coming. That they were coming. You know what I mean? So things things where I like as a I had to have a conversation Marc (17:09) Got it. Yeah, 'cause you the the ones you didn't plan for. Paul (17:13) exactly. I have to have a conversation with this person, let him go. I have to have a conversation about this person that doesn't get a bonus. I have to have a board meeting where I tell the board that we're actually fucked. You know, all these things. I mean Marc (17:24) Ha ha. Paul (17:26) You you prepare and then you go into them exactly Marc (17:28) So very visceral. Paul (17:30) and they are actually much better than they actually turn out to be, which brought me to my conclusion that it is deeper than just making a plan. It is it is touching a fear of not performing, of not being good enough. And what you said before that you have the self confidence that you can wing it, and I wonder whether that's the difference. Whether you say, you know what, fuck it, I'll tell the board we're not, you know, good you know, whatever. I I'm gonna wing it. And and me worrying about not being, you know, perfect, you know, coming back to his Marc (18:06) Yeah. Paul (18:07) perfectionism. Wha what what's your I mean, what's your take on that? Marc (18:10) I I think perfect is the enemy of good. I've always said that, right? Paul (18:15) It's true. Marc (18:17) and I had this epiphany fourteen years, whenever it was, in a very high pressure situation, right? where I was like focus what's in your control and what's out of your control let go of. can I just chunk it up into the things that I think we can absolutely have control on and and break it down. And that might release some of the kind of pressure and the anxiety that I often we often put on ourselves in these situations. And that's been helpful. Paul (18:42) sh that that sounds like one of those alibi hacks that our Marc (18:46) Huh. Paul (18:46) friend was talking about. Marc (18:47) Yeah. Really? Paul (18:48) I hear you. And I think that's also what I've learned not so long ago. That you know, what is in my control but still there is something that for me I think is the approval or is am I good enough? And I wonder what are the things I I wanna see a little bit if there's something that is also pattern deep inside of you there. I mean what are the things that keep you up? Is it I mean you you do keynotes in front of five hundred people. Does that keep you up at night? Marc (19:13) Yeah, yeah. Paul (19:14) You you t you told me on on one of the other me and our listeners on one of our other episodes that you get up you wake up often at three o'clock or five o'clock in the morning. What are the thick things that is there a common theme among the things that keep you awake? Marc (19:32) I am gonna put myself in a very embarrassing confession here. So so what I I s definitely still if I'm debuting a talk, of course, like I'm a little bit nervous like anyone. Like you know, it's not that you know, I gave one for 175 to two weeks ago. And you know, of course you still get the knots in your stomach before you go on. I think that's all that is like fairly normal. But what What I ruminate on is all about my potential. It's not about my mistakes. It's all about am I am I or or the potential of the thing I'm building, you know? should we be going like this way? Or am I living up to like, Mark, you're given this talent? Like you should be like, are you really delivering on that? Because I feel like a lot of what you're given is luck, you know? And you have an obligation in life to to Act upon the thing that you're going through. I have this weird belief about obligation to your luck or to the cards given to you, if you got a good hand of cards. I believe I got a good hand of cards. I think I know you did too. And I often think about that as my big kind of existential rumination. So it's very slightly different than than a lot of yours. Like, you know, it's it's like Paul (20:50) Yeah, but but it could be I mean that's where I I landed on in this conversation was that I do think the things that make us ruminate are rooted more deeply in in the Marc (21:02) Mm. Paul (21:03) way we were brought up and maybe you know one of the themes in your upbringing was that you know you were asked and it was i it was you learned that it is important to live up to your potential. Whereas I probably learned that it was important to perform. I don't want to do a therapy session enough, but my kind of thought was if we don't go to those Marc (21:21) No, that's that's super interesting. Go there. Paul (21:23) if we don't go to those roots, can you ever stop the rumination? That was kind of my thought. So you never went to therapy, so you're probably never gonna stop this rumination, or what's what's the take here? And you think it's stupid. No, sorry. Marc (21:37) No, I don't actually well well no well well first of I'm stuck no no I'm stuck on these two like like the source of your rumination is of course it always goes back to the upbringing but I really like this idea of like hey you're about performance and I'm about potential. that's that was a that was a highly simplified version But it doesn't sound so rock, right? Exactly. You know, like yeah, like I would I love that idea. Paul (21:56) Exactly as you say it, it's doesn't sound so wrong actually if you mean Wow. Man, we could charge each other for this therapy session here. It's like it's a circle jerk. Marc (22:08) Yeah. Well, it's just it Paul (22:11) Yeah. Marc (22:12) you know, I I would just want to say like performance potential is never I it should be qualified, you know, potential was never about like airy, dreamy kind of thing. Like, you know, I had immigrant parents, first generation Americans, you know, who came from more hardworking backgrounds were very queer about emphasizing to me that I was a lucky boy to that I had the things that they didn't have, that I had opportunities that they didn't have, and they bel they loved me and they believed in me and all that stuff. So they really hammer ability to like like Paul (22:43) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you have a responsibility, right? With that. Yes. Marc (22:49) yeah, like, you know, don't fuck off and smoke weed, you know, loads of weed and and become an art, you know, a a a theater Paul (22:55) Just a little bit. Marc (22:56) kid. Yeah, exactly. Just do a little exact for your ideas. But but but you know that was really ingrained in me. It was like you, you, you You have a much better life than I did, Mark, right? Don't waste it, you know? And that's me. That's totally true. Paul (23:13) Here we go. Marc (23:14) And that's the source of my rumination. So much of it is that. Paul (23:17) But how how does it stop then? I mean, how w when do you I mean, is that an ongoing one or does that st or or when you, for example, then left your job and you started, you know, building your business? Marc (23:25) It's it's gonna it's gonna stop it's gonna stop when my parents tell me how proud they are of me and that they want nothing else. Paul (23:31) No, this is bullshit. No, but seriously, I mean you you've probably had it in the past, right? When you when then it stopped for a while. Did it stop when you left your job and started your own thing? For a while at least? Marc (23:44) Big time. yeah, like big time. I think like and wow, this is like this is really interesting therapy. So before I left my job, I was up countless nights. Like like like what's the right move? How do I do it, et cetera? And funny enough, my parents were like, Why are you weaving your job? Like like it sounds like a pretty sweet gig to me, right? And I was like, I literally said, It's I'm not delivering on my potential. And what I should have said is the The bar that you set for me, dumbasses. Like don't lower the bar, I'd be like, keep it high. Yeah. Paul (24:18) Yeah. Marc (24:20) And it did stop because then I started to say, okay, like I'm I'm doing the thing I should be doing. Right. And and and living to my potential. Dude, you know, this makes me want to really be a much more conscious parent right now, you know, talking to you. But thank you for that. Paul (24:37) We're gonna f there is a book, I think it is with the title along the lines of we're gonna fuck them up anyways. is Marc (24:45) What Paul (24:48) which which I never read. I just love the title and the title already gave me everything I needed to know, you know. it's it's almost like an exculpation. Marc (24:57) Performance and potential. Performance and potential. So tell me about your route of performance. Like I'm just, you know Paul (25:04) I v I think very simple. I mean in in in in my family it was always important to be good at school. I guess also to live up to your potential, but to perform and to do the your best, you know. Marc (25:15) Right. Paul (25:17) less I would say out of responsibility, to to to to the I think the luck that we had, but just by the fact that you are only worthy if you just work hard, you know, if you just work hard Marc (25:30) Mm. Hmm. Paul (25:31) and and do your best. And and and that's kind of and and that got approval, right? And and that got approval in the forms of, you know, the way kids get approval. A very simple, I think, a mechanism that I share with many, many, many other people. but it's interesting, it surfaces, I think, in different in different ways for for everybody. So so that's that's mine. Marc (25:49) Sure, sure. Paul (25:51) But you know what I was wondering, Mark, when you said this, I was wondering, you know, my rumination obviously stopped hardcore when I, you know, stepped out of this job. Marc (26:03) Yeah. Paul (26:04) and in my sabbatical. And and you know, critically you could argue I ran away from it, right? In the end. But you could also argue you also ran away from it because you just tried to fulfill your potential to make it stop, right? And and then and then three Marc (26:20) Exactly, exactly. Paul (26:22) months later you're like, this is actually working. Well, listen, shouldn't I raise my bar and my potential is higher? Now I'm thinking Marc (26:27) Yeah, exactly. Paul (26:28) how I can get to X, Y, Z million turnover, not just starting the company. So you're kind of raising the bar. So so how Marc (26:32) Right. Right. Paul (26:34) do you think about that? Are we r just running away or running towards it? Marc (26:40) Running away from ruminating or running towards r ruminating? Well, okay. Let me Paul (26:43) You know, in a sense w it's kinda has Marc (26:45) let me let's back up for a second. What let's distill d I want to answer your question, but there's shitty ruminating and there's quality ruminating. Would you agree on that? Like like like if we define my rumination as like being captured in the thought thoughts, right? And processes, right? That just don't like like don't let go. You c things you can't let go of. There's ones that or what's called toxic and non-toxic might be another way of saying it, right? Paul (27:09) Mm-hmm. Marc (27:10) There there's there's absolutely, you know, the the types of ruminations that eat at you, right? And just break you down and et cetera and and And while we have an inability to and we're both clearly struggling with because we're we're we're big thinkers, you know, letting go of topics. But we but but I think you re you ran from toxic to non toxic. And that's at least better than some than than than than staying in Toxicville, right? Paul (27:40) I I you know what I think rumination to me is always in a sense toxic because it's something it is a thought process that you are not actively steering. And and I I would call thinking about something Marc (27:54) Mm. Paul (27:54) positive, you know, with consciousness is brainstorming or strategizing or thinking or making a plan. But thoughts that are happening in your brain, although you don't want to, There is this great story I read once in a book, which is a book of Buddhist short stories, it's called the "die Kuh, die weinte" in German, I think the cow that cried. And it Marc (28:20) Okay. Paul (28:20) is it is about a monk that is you know going to some priest or you know to become a better monk, right? And so this priest gives the monk a simple task or mantra, but he warns the person, you know, just make sure you don't think of a monkey. If you think of a monkey, your practice is ruined. You know, so the person thinks that's easy. I never think of monkeys. Yeah. But the moment they close their eyes to try and focus, their head fills entirely with monkeys. Swinging, jumping, making noises, you know, jumping from one tree to the other. So and and the lesson of this was, you know, that's why it's monkey mind. Whatever you try to forcefully push away or tell yourself not to think about becomes the exact thing your brain latches on to. And I think this is a beautiful story. And it's actually also rooted in in research that that's that's what it is, which then brought me to thinking maybe you just have to accept the noise. Marc (29:23) Okay. Paul (29:23) And learn how to live next to the noise in turn of instead of trying to switch it off. Marc (29:28) First of all, thank you for sharing that story. I didn't know that's the source of monkey brain, but I'm glad it comes from a Buddhist story. That's that's fun. That's awesome. So basically, you and I are are consistently trapped in our own circles of rumination without much of an escape. Paul (29:46) Exactly. Yeah. Marc (29:49) Fucking depressing episode. I I thought we were gonna offer some real solutions here. Paul (29:54) Yeah. Marc (29:56) I I mean, well look, but what I what what I am taking away, what you just said is like a way to escape is to understand the source code. And actually that's sort of when you understand the source code, you you start to remove it of its power. and I'm gonna share a confession with you, which is kind of sick. And I'll tell you like so what if I wake up late at night, right? And I can't let go of the thought thought that I'm thinking about, I'll just put on a competing podcast that tells a story. And so so so It's like, you know, I'm reading about like the Byzantine Empire, you know, and the rise and fall of the Byzantine Empire, right? And Constantinople. Go going in my brain Paul (30:42) You're exactly like my my my I Marc (30:46) while I'm thinking about the other thing that's really important. I hope that the Byzantine Empire takes over the other side of my brain and it's so boring that I fall asleep and that's it, you know? It's sick. It's totally sick. Paul (30:56) Yeah, but I I I I know somebody who does exactly the same thing. He told me the other day there is this great CDF documentaries that I watch on YouTube and I put them in my ear at three in the morning and they make me fall asleep, which is Marc (31:08) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (31:09) exactly that. But it's it's it means you are just you know it's basically you know it smells bad, you know and you use toilet spray. Yeah. It doesn't Marc (31:20) Totally. Paul (31:20) make exactly it doesn't make the the base smell go away. Marc (31:26) Damn it, Paul, like, you know, you're making me th this conversation is is making me realize. I mean, I always knew that I needed to work on my brain health. And and like, thank God I studied enough Buddhism and Chinese philosophy to understand like what the aspirational state of of right of a healthy mind should be. But you're making me feel like, you know, not only do I have monkeys going in my head, but it's like, you know, a goddamn year round circus, you know. And I like Paul (31:55) Yeah, but the thing is though When it's not, right, are you Marc (32:03) Yeah. Paul (32:03) are we then lacking the drive to actually go and achieve something? I would becoming less ambitious because I mean that monkey brain of mine, that rumination, made me prepare for some important things in my life really fucking well and then motherfucking acing it. Marc (32:27) Were you acing anything of meaning or just acing something? yeah. All right. Yeah. Paul (32:30) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These were important meetings, important things, important conversations. Yeah. I I I don't have the answer of how it would have been without the preparation, I've no clue. Yeah, because I it didn't you know. Marc (32:47) Yeah. Paul (32:47) So that and is and Marc (32:49) It's a good it's a good so have you ever done like deep meditation? Paul (32:54) Yes. Marc (32:55) Yeah. So how do you kind of enter that transcendental state, right? You start to right. It's like it's literally you actually follow the monkeys around your head, right? And you follow how one thought leads to another thought and how that leads to the next thought. And you kind of like break down the causal nature of the thoughts that keep going and following your brain until almost suddenly they sort of just disappear. And then you just kind of be. And I always love that tactic. and maybe you're able to extinguish your rumination if you back to understanding the source code and the source code of that and the source code of that and just kind of break it down that way you can stop. and liberate yourself of some of the the challenges of that or that that brings you. Paul (33:50) And I want to follow up on that and on this great episode that you guys can listen to, I think is eighteen with Johannes, a coach that we had that was our first guest. And he always said that's why meditation is called practice. Because it's a Marc (34:05) Yeah. Paul (34:05) practice of actually being with your mind and your thoughts. And Marc (34:09) Mm. Paul (34:09) right, and there's concrete meditation techniques that are noting, right? So you have a thought, I have a thought. And there is one picture in a guided meditation that I That always helps me. And it describes Marc (34:21) Mm. Paul (34:22) this process as you being in a cabin somewhere in the mountains in winter. And there is a storm outside, but you sit by the fire. And Marc (34:28) Mm. Mm. Mm. Paul (34:32) the storm and the snow and the wind, that's your thoughts. But you are not your thoughts. You're inside that cabin in front of the fire. And I find that to me has always been an extremely powerful image to actually Let the storm be the storm and me be me. And not identifying Marc (34:52) Damn dude, that's pretty good. Paul (34:53) with the thoughts. Marc (34:56) Mm. Paul (34:58) So yeah, maybe I mean calling out to to our friend Marc (35:01) Beautiful. Paul (35:01) here, yeah, that maybe they're all allied by hacks, but I I I think I do think it's a superpower when you can balance that the the there's the drive that rumination sometimes gives you, but are also able to live with it and then focus on on what's important right now. Because I think we can all agree that being somewhere else in your mind is kind of ruining whatever you're doing at that moment. And that could just be eating Marc (35:26) That's true. I mean Paul (35:27) or cooking. Or being with your kids or your wife or a friend, yeah, Marc (35:28) Yeah. being with your c yeah, exactly. Paul (35:31) whatever it is. Marc (35:33) You know, this was a surprising episode. Like I I I I'm feeling like I I wanna go back and practice and train my brain again. I feel like its muscles are are very, very weak in terms of its discipline. that's which is annoying me. But it's good to know, like like, you know, we all suffer from it. We all suffer it for different reasons. Mr. Performance. Can I call you that from no one? Professor Performance. Paul (36:01) Yeah dog potential. Exactly. Marc (36:04) Top potential. Exactly. Well, Paul, so how would we summarize this one on rumination? like like do we do we have any solutions? Paul (36:16) I'm afraid beyond the, you know, what our friend called alibi hacks, which I personally just don't think they're alibi hacks. I think it's a bunch of things. What I take away from this, my biggest one is there is a deeper source for your rumination and and getting there and solving that will solve a lot of the rumination. Number two is our brain's default state is rumination. So I think You will always need to learn how to accept Marc (36:48) Mm. Paul (36:49) that and be with that thought process. Marc (36:52) but also I think you can reduce the power of it on your day to day by by really starting to explore the source code as to your first point. And I think that's that's a really powerful that's an interesting idea 'cause what I I think about how much rumination but this is reminds me of how much it just dominates our our lives, right? And our our brain power, our thinking, our inability to be present and take that you're you're inspiring me to take that power back. Paul (37:20) I love this mic. This was a really nice conversation, my friend. Thank you. We are gonna be on Marc (37:25) Thank you too. Paul (37:26) a bit of a break for the next couple of weeks. Talk to you soon. Marc (37:31) Summer Ferien Bye.