The 95% of Leadership No One Talks About | Ep 53

Paul (00:00) Welcome to guys like us. If you are new to this podcast, which is probably not very likely because this is our 53rd episode, this is the podcast about the things that you start thinking about when you are in your prime, which some people also call midlife. You'll hear stories about family, as today leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, lots of different things actually. And in today's episode Paul (00:25) We are talking about leadership, in fact. But not just what makes a great leader, but we're talking about moments of leadership and the things that we have seen in our careers that yeah, that shaped us as leaders, I guess. And we really sucked at exactly. So, and how can we talk about this? Who are we? My name is Paul Vattinger. I'm your co-host. I'm calling in from Beautiful and Tranquil and Dark by now, Vienna. I am Paul (00:52) I would say a former executive. I still do this on an interim basis. I am an entrepreneur, a father of three. and I'm joined by my good friend Mark. Marc (01:04) From beautiful sunny summary New York. It's a delight to be here. I am also an entrepreneur, sometimes artist, father of two, and lover of big questions and breaking down the human side of change. And so this is gonna be a really fun episode, Paul. I'm excited. Paul (01:24) I am very excited. Let's go. Marc (01:26) So Paul, how was your week? Paul (01:28) Hey Mark, how's it going? My week was pretty intense, I would say. It's been a while since we talked. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this, man. No, it doesn't only Marc (01:34) Yeah. It feels like it, right? Like we were kinda yeah, me too. Paul (01:38) feel like it, it is is actually like it. You know? It's fact based. Yeah, super fun. Marc (01:41) I I'm reminded of why we do this. Yeah, just looking at you. Yeah. Paul (01:44) Yeah, I was wondering, man, how to describe my week in a terminator and Paul (01:50) And an idiotic thing of the week. I'm gonna start with my Terminator though, because I am coming basically from my grandmother's funeral. That's kind of a bummer, right? But no, but she Marc (01:57) Mm. Yeah. Paul (02:00) passed away two weeks ago, aged 95. Paul (02:04) she was born in, you know, in 1930. So she's had a long and very eventful life. And I don't think she, you know, I'm I'm not sure the last few years she really, you know, she was already a bit on the no Marc (02:16) Well yeah. Paul (02:17) phasing out, you know, if you want. But Marc (02:18) Yeah. Yeah. Paul (02:20) I mean, obviously I mean, all this generation is kind of and I mean I'm still lucky, I still have another grandmother who's ninety-three. This obviously this generation is is kind of you know on the go and not many of of those are around and it reminded me to really catch up with my other grandma and ask her for all these stories. I mean you know they grew up during the war and and changed so many places and there's so much family history and stuff. Paul (02:42) Super interesting. And actually it was a a beautiful funeral with all all the family coming together on a beautiful day, sharing stories, laughs. I mean, really, really cool. And so Grossi, that's how we called her, my Terminator of the week. One hundred percent. Marc (02:59) Wow. Paul (02:59) High to top this one, huh? Marc (03:01) exactly. Why didn't I go first? Marc (03:02) Well, I I'd love to start with the idiot of the week and then I'll then I'll do a terminator if that's okay with you. So Paul (03:06) Yeah, here you go, here you go. Yeah. Marc (03:08) so I'm I'm absolutely the idiot of the week. So on Saturday, I took my kids to the pool and I put my phone right by the by the kitty pool. And sure enough, my youngest, you know, when I it was turned around, took my phone and said, Here Dad and threw it to me. Marc (03:30) He's not even two years old. So that, you know, that phone went, I don't know, half a meter and went straight down to the bottom of the pool. And I can really attest to the fact that I thought these Apple phones were supposed to be waterproof, but they're not. But when I left my my phone by the pool, I I thought to myself, that's probably a stupid idea. And it was. So, you know, not following your instincts makes me kind of and here you go. Yeah. Paul (03:53) Anyways, here you go. One hundred percent. You know what? They are Paul (03:56) only in the very beginning and then they kind of start, you know, I mean your phone was kind of beat up and then that's when they they don't work like this anymore. Yeah, yeah, anyways it was time for a new one. It was the that's the universe telling you it was time for a new one. Marc (04:03) It was. It was exactly. So that was it. There was time it was Marc (04:12) and you know, the terminator of the week, I gotta say, I met a lovely guy, an entrepreneur actually, a German one, who runs a bakery, set of bakeries in Berlin called La Maison. And he Marc (04:29) Was here in New York with his wife, his beautiful wife and kid, doing a little bit of RD and research on the New York bakeries, right? And trying Paul (04:35) Yeah. Marc (04:36) to to kind of understand a little bit of what can I beg, borrow, and steal from New York and bring that back into into Berlin. And and first of all, I had no idea what a remarkable successful business those bakeries can be. Marc (04:49) And he's clearly done really well with a with a strong philosophy of of of French French ingredients, French bakers, French ovens, you know, and and no wonder it has a tremendous success in Berlin. But the other terminator piece is the passion is like you could scale that across the Dach region, I suppose, you know. But instead he's like, No, no, I'm gonna move with my family to Marseille 'cause I think that's an awesome city. I'm gonna open one of those in Marseille. Paul (05:16) That's awesome. I like that. I like that. I mean, but but that Marc (05:16) Tech confidence, I admire. That's cool. Super cool. Paul (05:20) just brings me to an idiotic thing, not of the week, but something that I mean I did remember when I came back from New York or when we were in New York and we had those tacos and margaritas and I was like, fuck, this needs to happen in Vienna. So I Marc (05:31) yes. Paul (05:33) come home, I tell everybody, you know, and then two days later this thing was opened. I mean there were other places before, but one of these groups in Vienna that has already lots of restaurants Paul (05:42) opened a taco truck right by the water, tacos and margaritas. Well done. So well, fuck it. Marc (05:47) And are they good? Yeah. Paul (05:49) Hey, listen, man, what are you drinking? You're having one of those alcohol free beers here? Marc (05:54) I am in honor of you because you know, I still have some work to do and this way I feel like I'm the butt. Paul (05:59) No, that's awesome. I mean I only have Paul (06:01) water because I mean I was quite liquid on that funeral. So yeah. Marc (06:05) Yeah. Exactly. What what were you drinking at the funeral? Can you share or Paul (06:08) After the funeral. You know, after the funeral. It was really nice actually. Yeah. Exactly. Some proseco, Paul (06:16) some white wine, classic grunter Marc (06:18) yeah. Paul (06:19) Vettlina spritz, you know, something you need against the heat to protect yourself and your organs, you know. You cover it with some water and grunner Vettlina and Marc (06:20) Yeah. I I see. I see. Paul (06:27) then you stay fresh for longer. You know, that's how it goes. Marc (06:29) So it works. Paul (06:31) Listen, I mean enough fiddling around before we start with our main topic today. Paul (06:38) Which do you want to lead in because you just came back from were you California again for this thing? Marc (06:42) Yeah. I Marc (06:44) I was in California and you know we were reading a workshop for pretty cool fairly iconic company all around AI Marc (06:55) Anyway, so basically run a good session. That went that went super well. getting you know, letting some fires around kind of what how to thrive in the AI era and and hitting on stuff like agenda commerce or whatever. But you know, then like I gotta stay for the closing of the CEO who who got on stage and talked. And I have to say like it was it was Marc (07:17) A profound rallying cry really struck me as like how do you rally the troops at the same time deliver real talk and still walk away feeling fairly inspired? And this person was able to do all three remarkably well, you know. And I'll give you an example. Like, you know, I think well it's a it's a gentleman, so it was brought around I mean who care he was brought around as a turnaround CEO. I think like Marc (07:45) Level phase one of the turnaround was sort of accomplished, you know, fix the business fundamentals, that sort of stuff. But like to get to phase two or three, I mean, it's like there needs to be something radically done about how we're doing our businesses and how we're leading. Paul (07:58) Mm. Marc (07:59) And he said, you know, what what I loved is like, hey, you know what? Like when you pick this job, you gotta think short term, medium term, and long term. That's the fucking game, right? What else are we here to do? Yeah, you know? And if I have a back quarter, I mean like Marc (08:14) All of you are leaders. We're not a bad quarter. I have to represent all of you, right? In front of the group and the financial markets, etc., and explain whether or not we're kicking butt or whether or not we're not. So you should be really asking yourself like, like, are you in it, right? To really fully go and take this icon to what it needs to be next. And it was a incredible balance of like Marc (08:40) explaining your own kind of passion to win and feeling the weight of legacy. It's like, look, I'm carrying this thing forward. Like I'm here, we're not here to waste anyone's time. Two to like really, you know, engineer in front of people sitting in that room. If you're asking yourself, do I have heart for this? Maybe now's now's the time for you to leave. And three, just sort of like, you know, it's the in or out. just like collectively kind of raising the bar, right? Marc (09:06) So, you know, I I pinged you right afterwards and I said, Man, I think this was really interesting bit of of Marc (09:13) of leadership and and and I thought we could really talk about How how do you meet the moment, right? during times of real change. So you got really excited when I said that. I would love to hear what you're thinking. Paul (09:25) Yeah, I think that's you know what I I I was Paul (09:27) we were thinking about this. But the first thing that really I thought when you were telling the story right now is that, you know, you said they they came around as a turnaround CEO, right? And you know this actually one of the greatest books I've ever read about leadership was Ben Horowitz's book. where Marc (09:48) The hard thing about hard things? Paul (09:50) And he talks about the wartime and the peacetime CEO and how different it is. And what you're describing, it clearly is a wartime CEO. So but do you think what what do you think about this distinction? 'Cause I had a kind of a thought I wanna you know. Yeah, yeah. Marc (10:02) Between wartime and peacetime? Yeah. Marc (10:06) You know, I don't even know if there's ever really a peacetime CEO. I think you're always at various stages. I know, but like Paul (10:12) There are. The thing is I don't think there should be. Marc (10:16) there should be, yeah. I think you're always at various stages of war. And I hate the analogy, right? But like, you know Paul (10:20) An energy sucks, I agree with you. But you're always in Paul (10:23) some kind of transformation. And if you're not right now, what what's happening? but there are CEOs that have a pretty easy life, you know. Paul (10:30) I mean, I've met these guys, they run forty hour jobs, the business runs, grows ten percent a year, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Paul (10:37) But I do think that I mean, you don't have to be so radical in every you know, business, but Paul (10:42) If someone tells me right now they're not really looking into AI and not really looking into any of those changes that are happening, I mean that's wrong. I mean he he he or she might think they're in peacetime, but I don't know, that's kind of I don't know, that's kind of a sitting duck situation, right? Where you don't know that shit is gonna hit the fan. Marc (11:02) You know, yeah, well also like Paul (11:03) So yes to your answer, Marc (11:05) Like you're gonna have your skirmishes, they'll be full scale war, but you always need to be kind of moving forward, right, on on on the front lines. And I say this very from personal experience, having seen peacetime CEOs, right, and been under their tenure, right? Marc (11:19) And it's awesome for a while because you're like, okay, like you know, you're gonna find like it's it's it's less of a Paul (11:24) Yeah yeah. Marc (11:25) burning platform, but guess what? your chances of missing a moment or an opportunity increase exponentially, right? If you don't make an advance in in the business And Paul (11:36) Yeah. Marc (11:36) I've witnessed it firsthand on a few fronts. I think the challenge is how do you be Marc (11:41) a wartime CEO in general peacetime. You know, I think that's always really hard. You know, we used to break up in my old consulting gig, and you were like, hey, there three moments and you know, you really talk to us. The first is like, you know, the turnaround moment, like we we have to return to great moment. You have to do that, right? The second was the become great moment when a startup goes from like product to company, right? Like that kind of thing. Marc (12:06) And the third was always the hardest, which was called the stay great moment, you know. that was we're already kicking ass and we need to still want to find another gear. Percentage of business which was stay great, five percent. And I I think it's it's a hard thing to do. Marc (12:23) being in permanent state of war is exhausting. Marc (12:25) there's some who have the appetite for that and I don't. What are your thoughts? Paul (12:29) you could be in an industry that is doing super well where you know all investors are happy, whatever, you know, your stock noted, your your shares are going up, blah blah blah. but you actually know you have to change something, and that is probably the hardest. Paul (12:43) those moments where and how you you catch your troops in stupid analogy. But you know, if you have a burning platform, if the business is burning money not going well, if your competitors are kicking your ass, You can shake things up but if you Marc (12:57) Totally. Paul (12:57) don't if you're doing great, it's really, really, really fucking hard Marc (13:01) my god. Paul (13:02) to change something. Paul (13:03) You know, out of this complacency a et cetera, et cetera. Marc (13:08) unless you can get some really good incentives in like like in place. So I remember I was once with a really great global retailer, And the burning platform he was able to engineer was growth. Marc (13:25) He was like, look, we're already growing so fast. How would you guys like to grow more and make crazy money? You know? And it it was just an interesting like my and he was totally unafraid to lead into that, you know? He said, We're already doing great shit, right? Paul (13:37) Yeah. Interesting. Marc (13:39) we have magic. let's put that magic everywhere. Marc (13:41) Right. And you got everyone kind of involved in that. But that's I you're selling dreams and you're try you're tapping into r into extraordinary communication skill. But it's it's the hardest thing when the w when I'm gonna mix metaphors, but when the bath water is really warm, you know, you people are people are comfortable. Paul (13:56) that's a nice one. I like that. Marc (13:58) so look, we've already started to kind of explain all the kind of dimensions of of leadership, why it's hard and why when it's easier a little bit. But I'm super curious, like like when have you experienced great moments of leadership in your career? Paul (14:12) Yeah, that's a good one. I have Paul (14:16) I've had a few moments that I really remember and that really shaped how I was as as a leader because I really liked those the the things that that were done in these moments. And there were really moments. And there were more moments, not around I need to now go and and and I'm a c or you know, somebody was a captain, need to steer a ship, but it was more like how people led me and the principles and values that they transported, Marc (14:38) Yeah. Paul (14:39) you know, in these actions. And and there were basically I remember it Paul (14:45) Very young, you know, a very senior partner in the in the company I worked for, got a little bit mad that I didn't send out something to the client. And then he he got me into his office and it was really old school, the big desk, and he said, Come here, come here, you know, it's German, come here, look at my emails. And there were like five, fifty thousand unready emails, like, I don't read Marc (15:06) Yeah. Paul (15:06) this shit. Yeah. So Paul (15:09) If you send me an email to ask me if you should send out an email, I'm not gonna read this. So you send this out, and if it's shit, I'm gonna stand behind you for the next thousand years. And I was like, okay, that's empowerment. That was pretty cool. And I really like that. And I and and that I I remembered for a very long time. But it wasn't that, you know, as I said, this keynote address and so on. But I actually also think that those are not the moments where you change the trajectory of a company. I think it is in those small things. Paul (15:38) with individuals that you really shape the culture, st you know, bit by bit by bit, because Marc (15:44) Yeah. Paul (15:44) I I really don't believe you go in and you manage just with three nice preppy speeches to change the trajectory of the company. It happens through interactions like this. Marc (15:58) So okay, so that that's kind of man to man management, right? I think what you're outlining. Paul (16:01) Yeah, yeah. Marc (16:04) one I will also kind of want to hint on is like of the people is is a theme. And and so I I was once working with a with a firm you know, where the C suite is so classic, so hierarchical, obviously occupying the top floor, you know, you know, everyone is you know can walk down. Marc (16:21) from from north to south, right? I would see every, you know, all ten members of the C suite, you know, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi. Paul (16:27) Yeah. Yeah yeah. Marc (16:29) except then I went there two years later and my my dear friend there, she w she was no longer there. I was like, where are you? Right. She was like, no, I'm in the fourth floor. I was like, why? She's like, that's where my team is. It's like I I'm the CMO. I lead the marketing team. Like Paul (16:44) Yeah. Marc (16:44) why am I why am I up there? Why don't I just be where all my other people are so I can lead them and grow them. Marc (16:50) And if I need to go up a stairs to talk to the CEO, take the elevator. it was just a profoundly kind of interesting pivot. And look, she knew right away, I need to build trust first with the C suite, then I can go deeper and really kind of build a world class team. But I love that example. It's Paul (17:05) Yeah, but it I mean, y you you just I think yeah. But you hit on two Paul (17:10) things that it reminded me of something. One is the hierarchy. And I know coming from Marc (17:15) Mm. Paul (17:15) our world where we are in a quite non-hierarchical environment, usually in in a consulting company, Paul (17:21) and and then I went into industry and it was really hierarchical. And I I I saw it that, you know, by default, you know, how the way you set up meetings, you kind of set the meetings up with the Paul (17:32) Your next level, but you never get down to the people who actually know shit. And when they are in the room, they don't say anything. And before they want to say something, they look at their boss. It's a terrible, terrible culture. And when I was at BCG, where the culture should be that everyone's everybody speaks. And I was an intern and we had an extremely senior partner there, and he said something that I thought was complete bullshit. And as you know me, I could not hide the fact on my face. Yeah. Paul (18:01) That I thought he was completely talking shit. And so he looked at me, he's like, Do you think what I'm saying is wrong? And I was like, But if you ask me like this, I I absolutely think it's, you know, not right to say the least. And that's the reasons. And he's like, Great, you know, who are you? What's your name? I love this, yeah. Next time speak up right away, because we don't pay you to just sit there and listen to my bullshit. We we pay you to actually call out my bullshit. And I love this was in front of a big group, huh? Paul (18:28) So everybody knew they were able to speak. And I think that's amazing. And it's very simple. It Marc (18:33) Hmm. Paul (18:34) is the same thing that that that you know your CMO a friend did there. And and and I think to me is the most important principle of all leaders is you have to in German we always say, you know, the fish start stinking at the head. So if you see some kind of a behavior in your company, you need to be the first one to change it and go ahead. And it it's super boring, it's super simp, it's actually super hard. Paul (18:58) to be honest, but that's what it is. If you know so and this guy did it, your colleague did it and it's what I always try to do also myself. I think that's the the number one principle. Marc (19:07) That's a Marc (19:08) that's a that's a great that's a great leadership story. I remember actually I had a a partner who has said the same thing to to me. I'm sure you're s you're really smart and you went to a great school, that's why you're here. But next time you're in a room you don't say anything, don't bother coming up. Come in here. No, but Paul (19:24) Yeah. I love the American way of doing this. It's so much n know so much more bam in your face, you know. Marc (19:30) it's a but it's a okay. Marc (19:31) So we're getting to like some some real transparency, like like really modeling kind of the those behaviors. I I like that. That's actually really nice. you got another good story. I think we're finding the building blocks of leadership here. It's kinda fun. Paul (19:42) Yeah, you know what? I was just thinking when you told yours, whether where I showed up as a good leader in in my life. Marc (19:47) Hm, Paul (19:47) I led a company through ups and downs in the industry, which was really hard. and we also had to let go a few people, et cetera, et cetera. And and of course I remembered first, of course there were kind of speeches in all hands where there were 150 people in the room and you talked to them. Paul (20:02) And and those are the ones where you really kind of shit your pants. But I don't think they made the difference. I think what really made the difference in these situations were a few things you can do that have a radical impact, and these are people decisions if you want. You know, you can take a few people out quickly or move them in or move them up, or you can make a deal or you can make a decision that probably wouldn't have been done before. So those things kind of show something, right? But if you say, you know, you Marc (20:29) Mm. Paul (20:29) want to take more risk. Paul (20:31) As a company and you know, be more bold, you also need to be more bold and show it to the company. Otherwise, everybody thinks this guy's just Marc (20:36) That's right. Paul (20:36) talking, but he's not doing anything. So what's happening here? And the rest is just being extremely consistent with the message of where you want to go, what it takes, and how you're doing. You know? And Marc (20:49) Mm. Yeah. Paul (20:51) and and and be your your number one quarterback, cheerleader and everything in one. I think that's that's what it is. Paul (20:58) at the end of the day. To me it was. It was that simple. Into the company, right? the the other part is the outside world, which I think is is is it is not part of today. Marc (21:08) Hmm. I Paul (21:10) Sounds very boring. Marc (21:12) no no it's not it's actually refreshing because that that is a bit of the playbook. You know, I I'll tell you tell you mine. I'll tell you a proud one and and and one where I think I failed short. Paul (21:23) Yeah, go ahead. Marc (21:24) I I think the the proud one absolutely is was post COVID during or during COVID. And like I think people were really Marc (21:37) wanted reassurances that whatever it is that we did as a business, right, could be relevant, right? On on screens, you know, when everyone's on Zoom. You know, like it was such a Paul (21:46) Yeah. Yeah. Marc (21:47) high in person intent culture, right? And I think I was really thoughtful about not just the communications, but also just bringing in different types of clients for a conversation to talk about what they value in people and that fur. And so I kind of built Paul (22:03) Inspiration. Marc (22:04) the Yeah, but I Marc (22:06) And like authentic kind of inspiration for people who you you work with, right? All the time. And they come in there and they really gave it and I felt like, you know, j just you just don't have to hear it from me, but hear from someone else, you know? The people who buy you and and how they value. And it was it was a really it sounded tactical, but you know, it was I think maybe it's reading what your people needed to hear at that moment, right? And giving it to them, you know, in a in a way better than they thought. They need to feel feel that they what they did was of value. Marc (22:36) And it's a lot like, you know, you bring in your customers who are enjoying your product for the first time, you know, but like but in a moment of high emotion, you know, and so reading the room is really kind of important. And I'll tell you the moment where I failed, which is when I didn't read the room really clearly. Like when Paul (22:51) Yeah. Marc (22:54) you know, I'm reading you know, I was in between high stakes kind of business development stuff and and we're missing our numbers, like like going in a tailspin and and I I Marc (23:05) Couldn't react emotionally, you know, I didn't even know how to interpret it. And everyone was like, that was a terrible meeting. And as a leader of the revenue, I felt and showed up disengaged, numb, right? And a bit bit on to the next. And I think people lost belief in some of my ability to change at that moment in time. They were right. Paul (23:32) Yeah, I I like the failure question, my friend. Good one. Paul (23:36) whenever Paul (23:36) I change company, you obviously come in with a lot of expectations as you know and and a lot of pressure that I made myself to comp Marc (23:44) Yeah. Paul (23:44) to to to to perform and to be great. And and and obviously you can't do things you know on your own. That's why you're also a leader and you have a team. And then I I usually started pushing very hard, very, very hard. and and a few followed, luckily. So we kind of got our shit together. Paul (24:03) But not in the time, quality, scope or whatever that we wanted, because I also lost people. And in my impatience, and in my impatience also for performance, to be honest. I I I lost people who who also left or or b basically checked out, yeah, Paul (24:20) because they were like, I'm not gonna follow this fucking idiot. He's just crazy. You know, he just wants things from me that I've never known. And I was very impatient about this, and I lost a lot of Paul (24:29) traction more than more than anything. I think just coming in like a like a steamroller, that's not and that's why I'm not so keen on these kind of steamroller actions and moments either, because I don't think they they only work when you already kind of know who you are with, Paul (24:45) and and what they actually need. Paul (24:47) You know, some need the steamrolling and some need the push and some need something gentle. And I think in the end, being able to read the room, like you said, being able to understand what does the re situation require? Where are we? You know, in terms of all those different stakeholders, the employees, the the owners, whatever, the markets, what does it need right now? And can you adapt as a leader? I think that's one of the greatest qualities you can have. And and it requires you to step back and to listen. Paul (25:16) Actually and and to feel and sometimes have a little bit more patience than anybody else, including yourself, or myself in this case, is willing to give you. Marc (25:25) You know, that's that's a a great summary and I'm gonna bring it back actually to to kind of wit kick this off with this lead with this CO giving this kind of talk. And Paul (25:35) Mm-hmm. Marc (25:36) you know, when I talk read the room, said the right ambition, but you what it's it's interesting, like 'cause where I was sitting, I could see the talk track for the notes Paul (25:47) Yeah. Yeah. Marc (25:49) and as as the presentation was going on. Marc (25:52) And I could see like what was more optimistic. And then he's like, Nope, not saying that. And I'm gonna go hard on the, you know, and where he deviated. And it was I think that was a bit of the the the master class, you know, I think of a of of a of a great leadership moment where you could see, hey, like it's the last day of you know, of of a three day whatever it was kind of summit, you know, you people wanna raise on a high, right? And he's like, No, no. Marc (26:19) We're not gonna go rah, rah, rah. I'm raising the bar on you and collectively. And I feel it on myself and that legacy. And I thought that's such an a delicate thing to get right, you know, to say. Like before you Paul (26:32) It is. Marc (26:32) go off I Paul (26:34) It is. And Paul (26:35) I mean, you know the things that I said before, I mean, they are very t tactical and and I I love the inspiration part you got in. And I think you do you do need that, but it is one part it is to kind of set set and explain with a great story of where you want to go. And and I love that. Paul (26:51) I actually think leadership is simple and it is not mainly inspirational and stuff like this. I had a conversation once with a Harvard professor and we talked to him Marc (27:00) yeah. Paul (27:01) about a strategic thing and I explained it all to him and he told me, It's like Paul, this was a great presentation. Paul (27:08) And you delivered it really well, and I believe you really understand your industry and you have your strategy right. However, as a leader, that's only the first five percent. Because the next 95% are something that you are probably not really good at. It is repeating the same thing all over again. Hammer the message. Marc (27:25) We'll play again. Paul (27:28) Right? And yes, and he was 100% right because to the point, to my biggest fails, now I have my biggest fail, thank you. Was that Paul (27:36) I solved the problem, I set the strategy, I had it done in my head, and I moved on. And then maybe I told my chief of staff, And I thought this was it. But obviously not. You know, obviously not. And and for people who like to solve problems, you know, like me, when I solve the problem, I'm done. So actually getting, and I think this is one of the biggest challenges Paul (27:59) of good consultants to be good leaders and I had to learn this is that this is just the beginning and now comes the boring part. And you can make the boring part fun. You know, how do you transport this message? How do you keep people accountable? How do you measure Marc (28:10) Sure. Sure. Paul (28:12) against it? How do you keep on repeating the story? How do you bring different stories back to that one point, right? In every all hand monthly, da-da-da-da, you tell a nice story and see here you go. And this is why Paul (28:24) And and so there is ways that you can play with this, but you have to have in your head that this is hammer the message. And you can't change the message every all hands. That's terrible. People would be like, What the fuck is going on? So there is some fun in that. Marc (28:37) That's fun. That's fun. Yeah. Paul (28:39) Yeah. Marc (28:40) I mean, actually great readership is repet repetition. It's not, you know, it's now I'm gonna put on another one before we close. You know, it's just like getting super fit, right? G it's getting Paul (28:48) Next yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Marc (28:52) super fit or just training, right? It's just repetition. Reps. Reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, right? Paul (28:55) Yeah, here we go. Here we go. Marc (28:57) So Paul, you know, if I had to take a stab at, you know, what are some of the the great building blocks of of we of leadership? And I think we're what we're deliberately putting aside is the obvious of great vision and storytelling. That's really queer, you know, but I think one is a deep ability to do kind of man on man kind of coaching, right? Like you really wanna like like be present, share philosophy, like like really make that personal connection, especially to your directs to push it forward. Marc (29:27) Another one I would think is like to quickly be of the people. You know, I think you lose your people when you've when you put on airs and feel like you're you're kind of different. Back to that story of that CMO who went down to that fourth floor. Like you need to you know, you're not flying first class while your your team's sitting in the back, you're with your team. And I think that's that's kind of queer and important. no. Paul (29:48) Leading with example, yeah. Marc (29:51) I think read the ability to read the room is so great. Marc (29:54) And and I I like I think both are stories of of losing when we when we feel like we have something figured out, ready to move on and and our people need more and they don't get it. Paul (30:08) Yeah. And I wanna break this down, right? I mean it's it's probably not all of our listeners are CEOs and and and many are managing at you know, but also as a CO, right? I mean you manage a team of ten, maybe fifteen, maybe twenty directs, right? So I think that's Marc (30:22) Yeah. Sure. Paul (30:24) the first thing and and and that's how you manage also the rest of the company, because your ability to impact the rest of the company as a CO, yes, you can give some speeches and stuff, and maybe you are in some meetings, but Paul (30:37) you have very little airtime and FaceTime with all your other employees. So but in the end what you Marc (30:41) That's right. Paul (30:41) do, and I think that's is that you manage and you instill culture and direction through your team, your directs that then instill it into their teams. And if they don't get it, you can't get anywhere. So I think that's that's the first part of any leader that has ever a team, whether they then manage, you know, other teams or not, is to get that team right and to get the direction Marc (31:03) Yeah. Paul (31:04) right and to Paul (31:05) make sure everybody knows where they're going, make sure you give them all the information they need to make decisions, the more the better, I think. The transparency, blah, blah, blah. Marc (31:12) Yeah, yeah, of course. Paul (31:13) And so on. And and be a coach to them, as you said before, right? And and really manage that. And then and make sure they manage exactly along the principles and values you want this company to be managed. I think that's that's the hard part because you can't you can't have your fingers on everything. That doesn't that's not Marc (31:30) No. Paul (31:31) possible. Marc (31:32) No. Paul (31:33) and you can on some things and that's how you show that things are important. and and go really deep. I think that's also you you can't just helicopter around. So I think and that's the ones that are applicable to anybody, whether you are managing, I don't know, a few thousand people or five. I think it's the same thing at the end of the day. Marc (31:51) Well said. Well said.