The Museum vs. The Forest | Ep 52

Episode 52 === [00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Guys Like Us. This is the podcast about all the things you start thinking about when you're in your prime, and by that we mean midlife. you'll hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out, perspectives. In short, all the things that shape us and continue to move us. I am your co-host, Mark Winter. bringing in from the bottom of our wine cellar here in New York City. I am an entrepreneur. I am a father of two. I am also a part-time artist, and delighted to be here and joined in real life by Paul: Paul Fattinger today also from Marc's basement or Marc's building's basement. I usually reside in beautiful and tranquil Austria, which is a place I very much like because it has lots of forest and that's already a teaser for today. I'm a once executive, now entrepreneur, father of three, lover of rabbit holes, uh, everything from, I[00:01:00] Marc: And self-help. Paul: to forest and self-help. Exactly. So that's who I'm, I, I am and today's topic is, uh, I found very intriguing. Marc: is gonna be a great topic today. super great show for you guys. here we're gonna really unpack, um, this title of like kinda switching off. What does it actually mean to go in, into recharge? And we're learning that we're coming up with two very distinct perspectives here. You know, is it nature? Is it urban? Like, can you even find peace in, in urban environments? Um, tune in to find out. Uh, we have a great one for you Paul: So Mark, how is it going? Marc: It's going well. How are you? Paul: Fantastically well. We are actually sitting here together today in the wine room of your beautiful building Marc: exactly. The, the w- the, the wine room that only has one, a few racks filled, the rest are completely empty. Paul: and even those racks look really sad. And we are having a [00:02:00] beer in the wine room together. Marc: Love it. Cheers Paul: Yeah. We're sponsored by Dortmunder Lager, my man Marc: respectable. Oh, it's a good session beer, no? Paul: It was a good, good session, babe. Mm. Marc: How are you? How you been? How have you been enjoying your, your five days here in Paul: Yeah, and I thought it's, it's a workation actually. This was a workation 'cause we actually really worked. And one of the things we worked on was changing up some things on the podcast actually. I mean, whenever we actually managed to talk about this because, uh, most of the time we, we, we have other things, um, that occupy us. And one of those changes is gonna be that we talk about our terminators and idiots or idiotic things of the week before we hit it off Marc: That's totally fine. That's, that's good. I like it, you know? Paul: So let me ask you- Marc: you- I, I get to vent first, you know? That's it. Paul: That's it. Shoot Marc: Get out of the way. Look, uh, I'm, I'm having a, a hard [00:03:00] time, uh, imagining me not talking about the World Cup as, uh, in, for the next three weeks, and so my idiots and terminators most likely are gonna be tied to, to some experience there. Um, no doubt, uh, the, the German coach is an idiot. And, and the most idiotic thing I saw this week was the German, Germany performance, to be honest. Paul: fair. Marc: Okay, fair enough. That's fair enough. Check. And but, you know, the, the terminators, I have to say, and, and, um, Paul and I, dear listeners, were, were actually at a game, which was awesome. We saw Germany/Ecuador, and I think the, the fans, the 55,000 fans inside the stadium, the way they cheered, the way they pushed that team on was amazing. If you ever wanna, um, reinstate your belief in what sport can do for a nation, for people, you just g- had to be there to see it Paul: And 100%, that would have also been my terminator going to that stadium. And, um, let's, let's, um, build on that experience. It was [00:04:00] also just a p- an unbelievably beautiful stadium, 80,000 people. Everything went super smoothly, um, super positive. You know, I mean, obviously the Germans advanced and the Ecuadorians did, so everyone was happy, you know, hugging, making pictures afterwards, selfies, and, and that was just fantastic. There's almost no idiotic thing I, I, I can say that I've... Maybe m- no. No. I Marc: watched the same performance I did. That was a Paul: yeah. Maybe the only idiotic thing was that I, you know, this margaritas really fuck you up. Marc: Or, or ha- or having seven beers in the heat and no, and no water. Exactly. Paul: put- Seven beers and a tequila and no water. Exactly. So there's a few things there, but let's not dive into this too much. No, but this experience was great, and obviously, I mean, also this town is, is amazing. Although I have to say, and that's maybe already a little bit of a segue into our story, the first few days, I really felt that this is a lot. This town is a lot. It was actually... Weather was fine. It was not that it was too hot or [00:05:00] anything. It was actually beautiful. Um, and then for the game and the day after, we moved out to New Jersey to your parents' house, which is, is obviously very beautiful out in, in, in the woods almost, and I really felt how it calmed me down immediately. Just setting foot barefoot in the grass, sitting there looking at lots of beautiful bright green trees. I could really feel how it, it settles me down and, and I really wondered how do you do it to somehow stay... You're such a grounded and, and, and balanced person. How do you make that happen in the craziness of the city? Marc: I need to add a little bit of color to this. I think somewhere later in the evening, I think you were on your, your fourth or fifth glass of wine, and you were just sitting in sitting in the garden. And you were like, "Why don't you live here? Why don't you just... I would move out immediately if you Paul: Exactly. Yeah, yeah Marc: Yeah, exactly. And I would just also like to contrast that with, [00:06:00] uh, we, we had a wonderful dim sum brunch this morning, and then Paul comes back, he's like, "All right, I'm back in New York." You know? Like, "I totally get it. It's awesome." Paul: That is also true. That is also true. Nevertheless, we wanted to do this episode about, I don't know, we'll see a little bit, I think, about what it takes to wind down and unplug Marc: Yeah, especially there. It's a g- it's a good, uh, it's a good entry. And, you know, look, I, I think, um, you know, uh, we'll, we'll probably approach this from two different sides because, you know, you are both a nature guy, you're a m- a man from the mountains, and a self-described man from the mountains. Um, and, uh, even though you're from Graz, which is, which is what, the second-largest city in Austria, but still. Paul: Yeah, but still there's l- less people than in, in basically 300 exactly Marc: exactly. So, um, you know, it, it's [00:07:00] interesting to, to understand, like, what calms you down and what you need to actually calm down, right? And how you unplug. And, and, and it's funny that you return to nature, and for me, I, I have a, I have a opposite type of feeling. Like, I, I actually do find a little bit of calmness, of course, in nature, yeah, but I feel like I can easily find that in urban environments, especially intense, intense ones. I love the intensity of cities, of energy, you know? And knowing that that energy's out there, I find a way to just kind of step back from it and, like, let it all play out in front of my eyes, which I find is interesting. Paul: you might remember basically two month ago, I had this beautiful men's retreat up in the, really in the mountains where we connected to nature for three days and connected to, I would say the source, uh, within us and in of the universe if you want. And I came back and I felt, I felt my, my whole nervous system, everything was really calm and relaxed. And, and it was very present in my [00:08:00] mind that I needed to find that more often, you know, that, that calmness and that clarity that comes from it as well. And just let me continue my thought. And then you go back into the city and into your life, and you almost don't notice how, or I almost don't notice how, you know, you kind of get dragged back into this routine, and also in a cer- in a, in a more agitated state. And only when I then almost by chance get out to, you know, your parents' place in New Jersey, I feel all of a sudden a lightness and a relaxedness, and I, it, it reminds myself, ah, you know, but I'm not in the city, I also feel okay. That's what I'm, that's why I'm asking, do you feel a signal, Marc: Yeah Paul: you need to go out? I mean, and I'm wondering for myself, do I need a certain routine Marc: your point is really well taken. Actually, before I go to me, I, I wanna hit on what, what you just shared. So, so after you s- you spent time in your men's retreat and you went a little bit kind of deeper, et cetera, now, like, how did that affect [00:09:00] your business performance, for example? Or your... Did you feel like you were able to think more expansively or, or extensively there? Paul: Well, first of all, I felt like I... There was more clarity, more clarity in what I wanted to do and what it takes to do that, and, uh, a higher ability to focus and to actually sit down and do things. Because that's, that's actually for me a signal when I have so many th- when I have the feeling there are so many things to do and I start one thing and I do the other thing, I do four things in, in, in, in parallel, that that's a sign that I'm actually not very centered and relaxed. And that was a huge difference. When I came back from there, I sat down, I did one thing couple of hours, I check. Next one, check. That was great. So bigger sense of focus and clarity. Marc: Yeah, you know, look, I, I, I, I buy that, and I think, [00:10:00] um, the city, like urban environments, uh, uh, and I, I don't want us to play that I'm a, I'm, I'm not a nature guy. I don't love that. I do, and I, I do find everything that you're, that you're, uh, identify with what you're talking about, and I wish I was as intentional as you were, for example, that men's retreat because I actually completely buy, agree with you. The resetting your nervous system is right because, you know, the humans, how they organize themselves in urban environments, especially New York, is a pure chaos. It is full intensity, right? And, and the energies has to affect Paul: It's crazy. Yeah Marc: But I also think it affects you in positive ways. You know, I think you, uh, I kind of, like a surfer, I kinda like put on my board and just kinda ride that, that wave of, of energy, um, carrying forward because actually I think, and maybe this is it, I, I draw off so many of the ideas that I feel are flowing around that city, both in the commercial ideas, in the arts, in the commerce, and I, I am g- non-stop inspired.[00:11:00] And you, you know, you can, of course, there's the, the beauty of nature is also amazing. It's slower. It's a, it's a fast, um, fascination you kind of have, right? Of the clouds, of listening to the water, and, and, and putting your feet on the grass. Uh, but I will say that when I typically go to recharge or things like that, you'll find me in a museum, and I, I put on my, my headphones, noise-canceling, put on a beautiful piece of, of music or something, and I just study art. You know, walk around there and contemplate that for a while. Paul: Oh, that's fascinating. That is fascinating. In fact- Marc: That's my ritual Paul: if you look at research, I mean, obviously there was all these things of forest bathing, right? Yeah. Um, and, and, and of course they lower cortisol level, they lower your stress levels in however you can measure them. However, this is not the only way to do it. I mean, you can actually do this super well, as you just said, in an urban environment. It's more [00:12:00] about actually switching off and being present and not being drawn to other things. It's just that nature doesn't have a lot of distractions, right? No, right. You don't have to look for traffic coming in. You don't have, um, beautiful people walking around. You don't have, you know, the next shop, the next cafe, the next restaurant. If you manage in this environment, and it sounds to me like you are, if you manage to actually switch off and, and go within, then here you go. You, you might not need that. And I'm quite, uh, I'm quite an- intrigued by this, actually. I wanna try that. I, I really Marc: Yeah. I mean, listen, I'll, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a ritual I have. Um, like, you know, I used, used to go to Paris a lot. I hope to go more again, yeah. And in between, and it's usually, like, the three days I have by myself, kind of, you know, with, with no kids. I see friends, obviously you and, and a few others. And, you know, bef- like, before, like, we, we go off to the races and eating in amazing places and drinking great wines, I also [00:13:00] know that I wanna contemplate, um, some natural beauty, you know, or some artistic beauty. So I mean, uh, there's visiting the palaces or the museums, but honestly the one I always return to over and over again is the Picasso Museum, and I put on always a great piece of relaxing music. And, um, there's one painting in particular of, like, one of the very last paintings he painted, which is such a simple image of a, um, a young boy with old man eyes, um, which is how he conceived of himself at his death. And, and I always come back to that painting over and over again as a bit of, um, kind of beaut- beautiful inspiration, you know? It, it settles me somehow Paul: And now let me come back to my previous question again. Is there... Do you do this regularly? Like you say, you know what, once a week, once every two weeks I need to go to the museum. Um, do you feel that you need it? Do y- i- is, is there something changing in your [00:14:00] behavior? So what's the tell that it's time for putting your headphones on and go to see Picasso's young eyes? Marc: Um, I, I think when you need a creative recharge, I need a bit of inspiration, I feel it. Like, like I'm not ... There's, there's great ideas aren't coming to me, or I'm kind of feeling kind of stuck, right, of like what a path forward should be. I think I just try to go to see other great ideas, you know, and, and get to be inspired by that, you know, and by other different geniuses and what they spend on their time. So I, I think physically I feel it. Like, I feel like kind of like this gnawing inside of me, you know, this, this, this, you know, it's almost like indigestion in a way, you know? And like I need to go out and, and do that. Weirdly, I, I don't get that call to go to nature like that, you know? Uh, like I never have the, that, that gnawing indigestion, like, like run to the woods, you know?[00:15:00] Um, even though I make time for that, I'm there. You know, it's just not a, a biological calling like it is like, uh, I feel like a biological calling to be inspired by arts Paul: That's interesting because to me it's the exact opposite. To me it's the exact opposite. I, I, I do feel it. I mean, there's the extreme where a few weeks ago I, I bought myself a pack of cigarettes because I thought, "This is great. It's gonna calm me down." I knew that wasn't true, but I knew, okay, this is now end stage of being very unrelaxed. Yeah. Um, and then actually that weekend reset everything. The, the other one is, you know, one stage down is when I start losing shit. When I start forgetting things all the time. I mean, I lose things a lot anyways, but either way w- if that happens a few times a day or I do extremely stupid things, I also know somehow the system is in overflow. And I would say the milder tell is when I, I can't focus, I do too many things at once. I, I, I tend to, to do things that give me instant gratification or [00:16:00] pleasure also at work, rather than actually sitting down and doing the things that give me long-term, you know, benefits. Um, and I just know the, the easiest way for me to calm down is to actually go somewhere where there's a lot of forest really. I need that and, and, and space. Like that I can view, I have a view and I can look far ahead. Sea does the same thing, it's just very hard in a landlocked country to go to the sea, uh, unless you get on a plane or drive for six hours. But so these are my tells. Um, however, I, I do feel like I need almost more like a routine to put this in. I tried that once, to go, I don't know, take my bike into the forest once a week or something, just because I always feel different afterwards. Even though I don't even think-- Even though when I think I'm fine, I'm totally good, you put me into that forest for an hour like we did yesterday on our run, I will feel different afterwards. Marc: it's a good call to action, [00:17:00] and, um, it makes me think that... Here's one thing I, I know are, know is true. Nature has amazing different types of energies, right? And, you know, there's the energy of the forest, there's the energy of the sea. I, I don't think they're the same. And, um, and I'll give you an example. I think, like, when I was most generative, when I was writing all, like, my screenplays and things like this, you know, I was in the jungles of Mexico in this kind of, like, like, anc- around ancient Mayan temples and, and beautiful cenotes. Oh, yeah. Totally. It was a wild energy to that place, and when I was going to sleep all, I mean, amazing ideas were coming to me, just far out Paul: Yeah, but also you probably, you had, Marc: No, no, no. I was like, I didn't, I Paul: found some mushrooms in this jungle and and Marc: no, I pro- I promise you, I, no, I wasn't doing psychedelics. I was probably s- was definitely drinking a lot of mezcal back in the day, but like, uh, I mean, you know, more, more than usual. But, um, [00:18:00] it is, it was a, uh, it was a beautiful kind of feeling because like you, like that, that energy changes, and I think it's a lot like, like what does the sea do to you? You know, it's, and when you're out there and you're building. I think that's also very kind of refreshing versus the calmness of, of woods and, you know, I, I... First of all, do you agree with that? Paul: 100%, to the point that it's very interesting. I always thought I'm more of, of, I mean, by provenance, the, the forest, um, uh, mountain guy. And as you know, then a month after my retreat, I, I felt that calling. I was like, I had the time. I, I went to the sea for almost a week, and it was unbelievable. It, it, it is a different kind of peace. To me, the sea is more visionary. To, to me, the forest is, is something that is very much helps me going inward, opening up, um, being there for myself, if you want, a little bit. The sea, for me, is more [00:19:00] creativity, vision, opening up, getting new ideas. You know, where do I wanna go? It's somehow more, yeah, more creative. It's, it's, it's hard to put it into words, but it's a different energy, and both are amazing. I mean, in fact, when I was there, and you know how enthusiastic I am about things, I was like, "No, actually, I'm a sea guy. I'm a sea guy." And, and so obviously I Marc: I'm glad you g- I kn- I know you got a good relief from that, knowing you. Exactly. Paul: So, Marc: Paul, Paul, Paul's continuous Paul: it's like, what am I? Who am I? Who am I? Maybe this is the pro- and maybe... Exactly. Finally, I'm the sea guy. You know what? Then yesterday I was in a forest, and now I think I'm a forest guy. Maybe I'm both, and I think that's kind of the point you're trying to make Marc: Yeah, it's a little, it's exactly. And, and, um, you know, this conversation's making me think like, uh, like look, for sure if I, if I want ideas and inspiration, if I wanna think like, like I will absolutely first go for the urban environment. I want input. I want, I want... I was, you know, even this conversation we was talking about Mexico, I was like, God, I was just [00:20:00] immediately thinking, I haven't been to Mexico City in a while. I need to go there. Look at like, like look, look at the, the art and the ideas, you know, the, um, the shops, all that stuff. Um, I, but, uh, with that said, I will al- like if I need to build something new, really imagine something really crazy, I'm going back to that, to the jungle. Like, like maybe that is the, maybe that is the ultimate source code, I think, for kind of recharging in a way that feels fulfilling. But, but let me ask you this though, because I might be reframing some of this conversation for you because, you know, you're leading by char- you're feeling recharged by finding inner peace, it seems, right? And I'm leading by, oh, I'm feeling recharged 'cause I got ideas that I didn't have Paul: Exactly. Which, to me, I listen to you and I wonder if we have the same conversation actually- Yeah ... if we're talking about the same thing- Yeah ... because it's so different. So different. And, and, and I am here [00:21:00] and I'm looking at New York and I f- I, I'm really asking myself, "What the fuck is humanity doing?" We should ... We, we could always ... We like w- we put ourselves in, in like the, the, the tiniest of spaces. 10 million people. We cram as many as we can into each other. All we do is open restaurants and shops to buy shit and eat shit, which is by the way fantastic anyways. And we... And then you go out to New Jersey and there's all this forest and space and peace, and we could all sprawl out. I mean, I know why cities exist and so on, but to me it is ... I mean, I'd, I'd love to just go somewhere and I, I would sit at your parents' place and maybe once a month I would go to New York- Yeah ... have a nice dinner, go shopping. I'd be very happy with this. And I, I cannot contemplate how someone can see that differently. And I see you, and I see you relaxed, and I don't see you super s- I mean, you obviously are stressed with two little kids and a job and a company you're building, blah, blah, blah. But who wouldn't? You would also be stressed in a fucking forest, you know? Sure. That doesn't change that thing. Yeah. So I find [00:22:00] it fascinating how, how d- d- you can think so differently. Marc: Um, that's, uh, uh, look, uh, uh, this isn't about me, b-uh, but, uh, I, I understand your fascination. And look, uh, again, like we talked about on our way back and how I was explaining. Look, it's not that I don't see the need for nature. I would be able to weekend house, you know? I would love to have that, you know, to go out there and take a break, et cetera. But if it was a major, minor, major I'm here, 100%. I also think just like... A- and maybe it's my line of work or just how I'm wired or built, but I just love being surrounded by ideas. And you could also say, "Hey, Mark, nature's the ultimate idea." Like, like, if you wanna see, you know, contemplate various degrees of perfection, of evolution, of design, you know, it's all there in a walk in the forest. But, uh, it's, it's not what fills me up fully, like the, like, um, l- like seeing what humans do Paul: No, I think what's landing for me is that obviously, you know, everybody's different and, [00:23:00] uh- Yeah ... and it's not the ultimate source code for everybody to live out in nature, apparently. M- maybe we would do that if it was. A- a- and, uh, yeah, everybody has a different way of filling their tank, of ideas and of calmness too, right? And, and that's, Marc: I mean, a- and look, uh, it is w- it is weird. And, and I will say, like, you know, if... I think Central Park keeps New York sane because then I think it really would be too much. Or those parks, you know? Like, because there, there are, there's grass, beautiful trees, sculpted flo- you know, there's that there to, like, kind Paul: Also the, the water And the water in general too. Marc: the water, which I live by, too, which is also Paul: That makes a big difference. I agree with you. Yeah. Just thinking a little bit and summarizing for our listeners, what are we taking away from this? What I personally take away was, my amazement of how different we can be. I think similar in a way that we all need the pause button, but where this pause button [00:24:00] leads us to can be completely different. It leads you to the museum, it leads me into the forest or the sea or whatever I am on that day. That's the first thing. The second one is I'm still intrigued by that tell. What is the tell that you actually need to hit, hit pause is something I wanna go deeper into Marc: I- it, it feels biological in a way, Paul: It, it does, but you know, I think feeling that is actually the big challenge and, having access to that feeling and then actually hitting pause button. So these are my two takeaways. What's yours? Marc: Well, you know, I think, I mentioned I'm really fascinated by these different modes of nature, and, like, how you can tap into, and I think we're, we're already kind of aligning on, okay, like forests is for, for getting grounded. You know, oceans for thinking visionary. I think back to jungles being, feeling very much more around like, let's really, uh, shake things up and, and feel, take a, take on a different paradigm. The mountains are, have their own kind of, I think, [00:25:00] imagine, oh gosh, it's just when, when you're out there that's deeply reflective, almost becoming really soaring above your problems in a way, I imagine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, we don't know what the desert's for. We'll find that out. But, but, I really like being super intentional about where you spend time in nature given what you need, and I think that's very interesting to Paul: Yes. And, and I want to add on, on my what is the tell Routine also helps because then you don't need a tell. If you just routinely say, "I do X, Y, Z every 10 days," that's something I'm gonna take away for myself because I love it. Man, that was a nice light conversation, my friend. Thank you so much.