The Micro-Retirement/ Sabbatical Blueprint | Ep 33

Marc (00:12) Welcome to Guys Like Us. If you're new here, this is a space for the questions that start getting louder in midlife, the ones that move the needle from just doing well to actually living the good life. We deconstruct stories that shaped us from leadership and legacy to the deep friendships and late nights that continue to move us and kill us. No surface level talk here, just some lightly decanted reflections or existential questions and champagne problems. Paul (00:32) Hahaha. Cool. Marc (00:40) In today's episode, I'm very excited about this. We're going to be talking about micro retirements. I'm it's already time. Exactly. I'm overdue. I'm Mark ⁓ beaming in from a beautiful spring day in New York City, and I'm joined by Paul. Paul (00:47) Is it already time my friend for retirement? That's scary. Beaming in from a beautiful spring day here in Vienna, unreal. I mean, I am back. I can't believe I'm going skiing again next weekend, but this is the last time and I'm happy it's the last time. No, no, man, I'm back to clean my terrace today, made my kids work, made it all nice. I of cleaned my car inside, outside, got all of these spring cleaning things going, which feel fantastic. Marc (01:10) my god, fuck you. ⁓ yeah, good. Hahaha! Paul (01:30) Fantastic Marc (01:32) Well, I feel really lucky because the day when spring first hits a place is usually one of my top five favorite days of the year. That's when everyone just comes out of the woodwork. They're happy. It's like, know, they're in the sun. It's still not warm, but it's just good enough. Everyone's happy. They're having beers. Paul (01:45) Man, I love how you framed this. Yeah, you're right. It is. Yeah, yeah. Did you also make that mistake that you went out just with the jumper and then you realized actually when you go in the shade is really fucking freezing. That's what I did like yesterday. It's like so excited. I basically I was about to leave the house in shorts, right? ⁓ Marc (02:03) Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. But now I'm thrilled. got it. I got it in Paris and Berlin this week and New York this week. ⁓ You know, just to flex was awesome and so good. In fact, that I was like, OK, I need a summer cocktail for this results, but micro retirements. So I am cracking open. I'm sponsored by gin and tonic today to lubricate our thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. But that it's only four o'clock. We had a time change. Yeah, it's perfect time. Yeah. Paul (02:31) wow. wow. What time is it? That's perfect. That's perfect. Perfect. What kind of gin are you using there, my friend? Marc (02:42) the French and the, what is it called, the citadel? Citadel, yeah, that one. It's okay, it's a juniper. Paul (02:45) Citadel, yeah, whatever. I'm not... And actually, almost more importantly, what's the tonic? Marc (02:53) Tonic. I just use fever tree. It's not bad. Well, I don't know. Paul (02:56) Yeah, fair enough. You know, I found in my basement something from, you know, 2019 is a Grüne Weid Kline from actually one of my favorite vineyards here right in Vienna. Basically, I think I have a... Not true if I go out on my balcony, but if my house was pointed in a different direction, I could see where this wine is growing from my window. You know, and this is amazing. It's a 2019... Marc (03:17) Amazing. Paul (03:21) Vint a really beautiful a really beautiful crew never dinner with a beautiful color, which I didn't want to drink I mean guys I was sitting here ten minutes ago with my ⁓ Yogi tea shit and then Mike showed me showed me his gin and tonic and I was like, okay fuck it and Thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah Marc (03:24) God. Shut out of the cannon. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, well, I think, you this is, you need to, this is about micro retirements. What are you doing on retirement anyway? Paul (03:43) I had a beer this afternoon at the soccer field, the football field when I watched my son's game. So I felt like I had my today's share. But hey. Marc (03:49) Mm. Mm. I see. We were recording, come on. It's so lame. Paul (03:57) That's so lame. That is so lame. This is the edit. It is already... We jumped the segments. This is the edit of the week already. Okay. No, we're not taking it out. No surface level talk. It's all real. Okay. Okay. Here we go. So... Marc (04:05) Yeah, or we're taking it out. Okay. This is what it is. No, it is real, exactly. ⁓ Hey, so excited about today's topic. I know it's been an epic week. ⁓ Just to create a baseline definition for our audience here. Paul (04:19) Dude. Yeah, well, yes, we're talking about micro retirement slash sabbaticals slash breaks. What is it? kind of, know, micro retirement. didn't know that term until, you know, we kind of it surfaced in our, you know, work for this podcast. I was like, I kind of like it. Marc (04:36) Yeah, well... It did, I kind of dig it too. And so, you know, it's an emerging career trend, theoretically, popular among Gen Z and millennials involving intentional extended breaks, weeks to months from work to rest, travel, or pursue personal passions. Unlike a traditional vacation, these are often unpaid, like sabbatical, self-funded breaks. They're designed to combat burnout, improve mental health, and allow for life experiences while young. I stress that. Paul (04:48) What does it mean though? Mmm. Mmm. Marc (05:13) allow for white life experiences while young with the intention of returning to the workforce afterwards. So that's the baseline definition. Did you, did that align a little bit to what you were, you had in your head? Paul (05:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, no, no, fully. That's, I mean, to me, that's a sabbatical, yeah. Period. Yeah, yeah, as simple as that. Marc (05:31) Yeah, yeah, or I wanna push it a little bit, but I think that probably means different things to your career at different stages of your life, right? I think like how you're sabbaticaling. ⁓ But yeah, okay. So now, I just wanna throw out some stats just to give a little bit more context here. So there's the 80 % rule, so you know. Paul (05:48) Yeah, no, no, clearly, clearly, yeah. Marc (05:59) 2026 ⁓ report found that 80 % of Americans are now interested and ready to take an extended career break, about one to three months within the next two years. ⁓ These are a little US stats, but not surprising. I imagine it's the same for Europe. Then there's the microwave. So roughly one in 10 US workers plan to take a micro retirement this year. And for Gen X millennials, 60 % say they would consider one in the future. Paul (06:06) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Marc (06:27) And apparently, you ready? This is called the 46-year-old pivot. So an HSBC study identified 46 as the ideal age for a first mini retirement. And in the US, 37 % of affluent adults are already planning multiple ones. Yeah, they do. They do. Yeah, exactly. And you know, the strong corporate ROI. So apparently, replacing a high performer like ⁓ you and I. Paul (06:42) I saw that Gen Zs and Millennials have to wait a little bit for that one. I mean, we're not even there yet. I almost Marc (06:57) theoretically if we are on a good day. Costs company 200 % of their annual salary. So a sabbatical is literally a retention insurance. So that's kind why people have been doing it. Paul (06:59) If we were, yeah, yeah. fair enough. Well, if they paid for it. Yeah. I kind of like sabbatical more than I do like micro retirement, to be honest. Marc (07:15) I agree. Why? Paul (07:17) Now we're back to the age shaming of last episode, remember? When I was so picky on that. Marc (07:20) No, no, no, but like, mean, why? Paul (07:24) Why? I don't know, it sounds classier. Just being very superficial. But you know what I liked? mean, sabbatical, mean, obviously is a... And this might be very lame for people who notice, but I didn't actually. So I had to look up what the literal meaning of the word sabbatical was. Do you know? It obviously originates from the Greek word sabbatikos. Marc (07:44) No, tell me. No, tell me. Paul (07:50) which traces back to the Hebrew word of Shabbat, here we go, which literally translated means to seize or to rest. right. So and the original context of this is really interesting. mean, sabbaticals didn't really start, you know, ⁓ obviously in the 1980s or with any HBR reviews. The concept actually originated in ancient agriculture because in the Torah there's a mandate called the Shemitah, which literally means to release. Marc (07:55) No way. Paul (08:20) And it dictated the sabbatical year, every seventh year farmers were legally required to walk away from their fields. They couldn't plant, they couldn't plow and they couldn't harvest. The land was left entirely to rest. Which is also, you know, mean the basic of what they call the Siebenfelderwirtschaft, right? Yeah, but also, I mean, they talk about this in agriculture, right? That every seventh year you make a break and this is good for the soil and blah, blah, blah, blah. Marc (08:35) Fascinating. It's a good metaphor for the body. Paul (08:48) And finally, enough now that I read this, in my head the sabbatical was always a year long. So the word sabbatical was always tied to the one year period somehow. Marc (08:59) At least, yeah, it always felt like, or up to, between nine months to a year is what I always said. Like long, yeah. Paul (09:03) Yeah, so but it was always a longer thing. Right. So anyways, OK, we've established if we did some we did some great chat GPTing here. You welcome guys. So OK, so that's out of the way. So we're talking about extended breaks from work that happened well before retirement age. Very often, I guess, around our age. Although it gets more modern with younger Marc (09:29) Yeah, can I just add Paul (09:33) Kids too. Marc (09:34) a bit of a course correction from my mind from what I thought to what this is, just briefly. I always thought micro-retirements were when you can fuck off for a little bit, but not long enough because you don't have enough cash. So it's just like you, and you're moving, kind of, but you're moving between career phases in a way. I'm sunsetting this career, I'm gonna, Paul (09:37) Mm, mm, mm. Which is, I mean, the same thing, right? Marc (09:58) fuck off for a bit, retire, prioritize my experiences, et cetera, till the next one. I mean, I can't do it permanently, right? That was sort of the idea, Paul (10:04) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I mean, if I had had the money, would have had sabbaticized forever. Marc (10:13) I'm sorry, this is what we call a layup ⁓ for you, Paul. Exactly, this is what we call a layup. ⁓ Paul (10:17) That's like, like somewhat, you know. I remember, I mean, listen, okay, so what are the most common things people think, when you hear somebody say, man, I'm going on a sabbatical, and let's say it's a longer one, right? It's one of those more than six month ones, right? So what's kind of the first things that usually come to your mind? What this person should be doing, will be experiencing? What's kind of the cliches? Marc (10:39) Yeah. Yeah. Well, mean, the first thing I feel is deep envy and jealousy because I always want to. OK, transcending that. Sorry. OK, fair enough. I'm answering your question directly. And then I think so if you're thinking about stigma, I think very few will actually use it for productivity. I think most will use it to ride a motorcycle and drive around the south of Portugal. Paul (10:57) No shit. Yes. Check. Check. Yeah. Yeah. No, fair enough. Fair enough. Let's get that out of the way, but let's Yeah. Okay. Marc (11:20) you know, for an extended period of time. Paul (11:21) Yeah, so think one theme is, you have that, you know, kind of now you're doing, you know, this world tour, this globetrotting, this trip, this trip of a lifetime. I also think that's one picture. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a common one. What's another one for you? Marc (11:29) Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think people are using it often as a I need to quit my job and I'm going on sabbatical so I could find the next one. Paul (11:47) Yeah, that's also true. I kind of the other thing, I'm more thinking of stereotype, right? I have this one stereotype is, okay, now you have to go and you have to see the world. And the other stereotype, I think that is very often is that by the end of it, you're going to be bored and you're going to be so happy that you can work again. You know that stereotype too? Have you heard of that? Yeah. Marc (12:03) ⁓ of course, of course, because they don't know how to be with themselves. Yes, I totally agree with that. Paul (12:07) Well, I don't know why, I think people in general think that. that's what I mean. At least that's what people. Well, I can make it actually more direct. When I went on a sabbatical because I was on a sabbatical for exactly 12 months. So people asked told me, what are you going to do? Where you going to go? So which trips are you going to make? And the other thing people was like, but man, what are you going to do for you? You're going to be bored. You're going to be so happy. And did you did you work again? Marc (12:11) Mmm. I was going to go there exactly so I was going to go there. Go ahead. Paul (12:36) And just to cut to the chase and the punchline of this right away, I didn't do any light strips and I wasn't bored at all. I could have done this forever. Which maybe wouldn't have been true after three more months, but I mean, at that point, at that 12 month mark, I was very happy. Marc (12:38) Please. Yeah, you were having a lot of fun. Okay, you kind of jumped the gun in my facilitation trademark. I was going to ask you to take us through your sabbatical. So when you decided to go on it, it was partly your choice, having your career, but you had to make a... Paul (12:58) Sorry about that. Marc (13:19) It was your choice. Well, I'll let you talk about it, right? To go for that extended period of time to really reflect, design something for yourself. Take us through your thinking, as you were starting to structure it. Paul (13:30) Okay, I let's start with that. think it, I mean, it wasn't on my mind and it wasn't my choice. I mean, through the fact that I hadn't planned to quit my job at that point and then that, and that, that emerged. And then as it is with jobs like this, you usually have kind of a garden leaf type of situation where you also kind of worry free for, for some time. And that was the same, you know, was true for me as well. And, and so I thought, okay, for sure, for that period of time, I'm not going to work. And I was really happy. Marc (13:41) Right. Paul (14:00) And then immediately though, that kind of thing set in that like, what am I going to do? I need to do this. I need to do that. But then actually I don't have that much time because when the time's over, I need to start looking for a job again. So actually I only have a few months and dada. So I got into this whole loop and distress actually of, of, of what am I going to do with my time? And, and I was in very intense, uh, it was an very intense phase of coaching also, um, and during that time. then in, in one of these sessions, the question. Marc (14:15) Interesting, interesting. Hmm Paul (14:29) came up and I asked him, I don't know who asked it, doesn't matter. It's like, why is it limited to whatever it was six or seven months? It's like, I can't do it longer. It's like, so I kind of started doing the math, how much it costs. then I told myself, I'm gonna do a 12 month sabbatical and I'm gonna proclaim it to the world via LinkedIn. So it kind of has some sort of ⁓ legitimacy. Even though I always thought to myself, I might not, but just to say it out loud, Marc (14:38) Ha ha. Paul (14:57) took away all of the stress. And I did the math, I knew how much money would cost me, and I knew I could afford it, I think which is a big part of all of this. And then it took all this crazy stress I need to do now away from it. And that I think made it whole different experience for me. That's how it started. Marc (15:17) And what surprised you most about your time? I imagine you went to, or what's for this way, take a zip, how did you enter, like day one of your sabbatical, what was your mindset and how was it different when it ended? And then tell us what surprised you most through it, maybe. Paul (15:34) It's a great question. think I wouldn't even know what day one was. Let's say day one of not working was most likely not day one of my sabbatical. Marc (15:40) Mmm. Got it. Yeah. Paul (15:45) Because the one of not working didn't look much different than the last day of working. Because I had made up all the things I needed to do or I was about to, the people I wanted to meet, the things I wanted to get done. And I think it took me about a week or two to realize that I woke up easily as stressed and as wired as I had been three weeks before when I was in a completely different situation. Marc (15:51) Hmm. Hehehehehe Yeah. Paul (16:15) And again, through said coaching sessions, and I shared this experience, I had this almost epiphany to think, okay, and I shared this in a different podcast just a couple of weeks ago. Like, I realized that 80 % of the stress I had was probably, you know, self-made. And I mean, granted, depending on your job, there is stuff that you get on top. But 80 % is like the shit you expect from yourself or from others or, and so on, but really, and that was the first big one. Marc (16:34) That tracks. Yeah. Paul (16:44) The first really big one that hit me. They said, what? So I guess that's when it started. That's when my real sabbatical started and I very intentionally tried to stop doing things. Marc (16:57) Okay, like what? Paul (16:58) to stop being productive. To stop going for meetings, to stop thinking I needed to do X, Y, Z, to stop doing chores, to just stop doing for the sake of doing. Because our minds and our systems just find shit to do. Like my son did today, mean, I did this, did that, I that, I did that, do it. And feel great because you do, because that's how we wired. So to actually stop doing. Marc (17:13) Totally. Totally. Paul (17:24) is tough for once because it's tough for us because the system changed. And the other one, and I think it's a big one, is when people ask you, so, hey, great, you're in a sabbatical. What did you do? Where did you go? What did you learn? Do you do a learning journey? Did you do it? And you're like, and I was like, no, I'm not doing anything. Marc (17:45) Okay, however, that's not an easy thing. No, and also, but I think that is a profound response to a bit of the trauma that you had gone through. To our very avid listeners, I think they'll take away pretty quickly that you are, and well were, but can be a workaholic, very dedicated to your craft, committed to your... Paul (17:46) And that's not an easy one on a dinner party, you know, kind of setting. Marc (18:11) profession to your teams, et cetera, and it doesn't really turn off for you. I think that's been your journey to learn how to dial it down and find the balance that you needed. so, like, the, and I'm not fluffing you here, but I mean, think the self-awareness and the abid of bravery did not do anything, because the most classic thing you could have done is like, I'm going hiking in Nepal, or pick your version of that, right? Paul (18:38) Or I'm going to learn everything about AI, which I had on my list. I mean, I can tell you, I still have the to-do list. And I think off the to-do list, very little things are crossed off. So it's still pretty much there, which I mean, there days where that annoys me. yeah. I think, know, I mean, obviously I know I work a lot and I've worked a lot and things have changed also in that year. And you asked me what was different at the last day. I think that kind of relationship towards productivity and... Marc (18:42) Right. Mm. Mm. Mm. Paul (19:08) and to feel it more coming from inside that you want to do something and you wanted to achieve something than being coming from the outside, that's a big change. But I think we're all wired like this. I mean, I have hardly met anyone, including you. mean, you're also wired. We're also wired for doing, yeah? I think that's the thing. Marc (19:18) Mmm. Totally. No, no, no, totally. I have to tell you, when I left my consulting job and started another job, ⁓ I'll never forget the joy of deleting Slack from my phone. when you realize how often I check Slack, just because it made me productive to do something. This is a very common sort of thing. But it's also a like dopamine hit. Paul (19:47) Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah, of course. Marc (19:55) It's just, you're like, go, go. Paul (19:56) But let me ask you, you had almost the opportunity for a little micro retirement now. I mean, why didn't you do it? Marc (20:03) True, that's true. You know, I think ⁓ I have, for sure. And the story I told myself is that you've designed a life so rich you don't need it, right? Which is bullshit, but you know, it's sort of the story I was, yeah, yeah, of course. I thought go hard now when the timing is right and design a company where you can fuck off for at least a month plus in a row, right? Paul (20:07) Have you ever considered it even? Yeah, it's pretty bullshit, Marc (20:33) And it doesn't bother you. And so for me, I didn't want to lose the timing window that I saw because I felt like, talking about AI and leadership six months from now or eight months from now, letting other players in, ⁓ it would be a fool's errand, right? Versus let me jump in, ⁓ and I hate to use this term, but be first mover and get after it as quick as I can. So that was the rationale. ⁓ And I hope I won't regret it. I might. I hope I don't. ⁓ Paul (21:13) I mean, you know, I hear you on both ends. And, and you when you started talking, it sounded exactly like that. You know, now is the perfect time to do X, Y, Z. It sounded like this always like, I was have this picture of the carrot on the stick, especially in the consulting career, right? So I, you know, I'm going to do it when I, when I reach that and the carrot just keeps on. Marc (21:19) Mm. Yeah. Paul (21:41) actually never coming closer, it just becomes bigger. And on the other hand, I had to have a hard think about people who have actually made that break without some kind of external disturbance, in a sense. So I know someone who's actually very consciously saw that his time at this one job was over or he didn't want to do it anymore. He wanted something else, wanted to reorient himself. Marc (21:42) Yeah, totally. Fair, totally fair. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Paul (22:11) went on a break, very structured, learned a lot of things and got into a new job and into a new career. That was very deliberate, but it was almost like a career move. It was almost like a self-made NBA ⁓ late in the game. And all the other people that I know that have taken extensive breaks, something happened in their lives. I mean, they either got fired or ⁓ they hated their jobs and left or they sold the company and things like this. Marc (22:24) Yeah. Totally, Yeah, this all the... Paul (22:40) So Marc (22:40) Yeah. Paul (22:40) there are lots of these kind of breaks and I love, I haven't actually worked with this coach, but I talk to him a lot and his concept, because he's former football player, soccer player, is that everybody has kind of their break, their halftime. And you have a first half of your life and a second half of your life and then it's a question how you use this halftime to actually define your second half. And I kind of like... Marc (22:58) Right, right, right, right. Paul (23:08) that picture and you some people don't need much of a break others need a bigger one but I find the intention and the trigger for a break very interesting and yeah. Marc (23:19) I agree and I think neither of us are going to contest the intention or the importance of it. I what's useful in this conversation is to motivate our listeners to try it or least entertain the idea. If you're on the fence, go for it in a way. watching you come out of your sabbatical, I mean, saw such a profound change in how you saw the world and how you chose to prioritize your time and the risk you started to take. know, let's make a podcast every week, why not? To, mean, try something else. Feeling that little bit of creative energy. It's funny, to take it to another place, back to our AI conversation. Paul (23:56) Yeah. Marc (24:08) We all might be forced on a little sabbatical soon sometimes. It's funny, I was at Google last week, I think it's fine to share, just with a leader there I really admire. And we were just wrestling with that age, this now very hot question of if AI makes us more productive, what do we do with the extra productivity? ⁓ Paul (24:12) Absolutely correct. correct. Yeah. Marc (24:39) And I really admire her. Her belief is like, look, don't the best ideas come to you like a little bit like when you're on sabbatical, you know, it's just like, when we remove, shut off, when we let the machine run and do the thing that it's supposed to do, and you can step into a place of possibility, a place of reflection, a place of, of generosity to yourself and potential to the world, right? And I think that's Paul (24:51) you Marc (25:06) I was like, really? Like, that's your answer for this? And she's like, no, no, this to me. ⁓ Paul (25:09) Yeah, but you know what? I I I'd love to go down this tangent. Just to say one thing is that I think this is a beautiful idea. Everything I think that I have heard so far from people around me and also from what people have started is the opposite. In the sense that what we do with the extra productivity be even more productive. Yeah, you know, that's the problem. No one... Marc (25:28) Meaning. yeah, I mean, listen, I agree. Paul (25:38) No one stops. That's the problem. The people actually who use AI extensively work more than they have before with a much higher output exactly. you can do it. I case in point, I got up at 430 the other morning because I don't know why. I couldn't sleep anymore. I was like, great. My team's actually not sleeping. I fired up my laptops and bam, I was gone. It's nuts because you can do it all the time. Marc (25:45) you get to do more shit. Right, right. Someone will... Exhibit A of Paul's work. However, I agree with that. I don't want to derail us from our topic, but I do think that ⁓ yes, the future might be ⁓ high performing companies, ⁓ less head count, working overtime, just being super productive, et cetera, if that's all it is, extracting more revenue per employee. However. Paul (26:08) Exactly. No, no, okay, let's go back. Yeah. So I mean, listen. Marc (26:33) Someone will figure out the utopia, that's my vision of it, whatever the next version of that Patagonia company is, Where we'll have, you know what, we're gonna be 100 employees and we'll perform exactly like 100 employees performed in 2005, you know? And we're gonna AI run the rest and with that extra time that we have, we're gonna be thinking on the next big idea, which I think is cool. I wanna start that company. Paul (26:55) I'd love that. I'd love that. I I mean, just bring us, let me try to bring us back a little bit in, in maybe in the framework, right? Because we had talked about triggers, you know, the triggers for a sabbatical in a sense, right? And we talked about the fact that at least we think most of the time it must be somehow an external trigger. I really appreciate the people who kind of intentionally designed that into their career. And I mean, not a six week break. Marc (27:00) Ha ha. Please. Mmm. Yes. Paul (27:24) I mean, mean a proper break. So that's the trigger. Marc (27:25) No, no, By the way, you're so European, I love that. Not a six week break. mean Americans are sick, like that already is. Paul (27:34) No, I'm saying this. I'm saying this. It was funny because, you know, we have a friend who told me he's taking a sabbatical and then basically it was a five week holiday. And I was like, dude, that's not sabbatical. That's a holiday. And the interesting thing is today when I researched it actually says a sabbatical needs to be at least six weeks long, which I think is short by the magnitude of three times or four. Marc (27:44) ⁓ that's another sabbatical. ⁓ Bullshit. I agree. I agree. Paul (27:59) But I mean, I get that because anything shorter than six weeks is a vacation. And also not just, you know, by by French labor law or German for that matter. No, no, by by by the actual way that your brain relaxes and that is let's go and stuff. But OK, we talked about the trigger. And that's one thing. And I think the next one is if you're there, it kind of the intention of what you want to do with that time. And I find that interesting, too. So and they're different ones. I don't think there is one that Marc (28:13) Mmm. Mmm. Yes. Totally. Yeah. Paul (28:28) I mean, we talked about the career change intention that I think lots of people have and very diligently pursue. And I think I find that very admirable and cool. And, you know, there are people that go learning journeys and really design their own curriculae of what they want to do and do shit like this and do some kind of degree. Other people need to more find themselves to relax. That's kind of my end of the story, you know. Marc (28:48) Mm, mm. Yeah. Paul (28:58) Others might just want to go out and travel because they've worked since they were 18, who knows. So there are so many different kinds of intentions and to me, the only important part is, I think if you are at this point in time, to find the one that is really right for you. And I think that's a very hard one by itself. You almost have to spend the first month and a half, maybe those six weeks, you know. Marc (29:03) Whoa, whoa. Agree. Paul (29:25) to really find out what you want to do with that time and not rush into it and do what you think is expected of you ⁓ for whatever reason. Marc (29:35) Okay. Paul (29:36) intention. Marc (29:37) I love this. Let's play this little game. You have the invitation and the opportunity to go on another sabbatical on your 46th birthday, which is apparently the ideal age. So a year and a half, I guess. Paul (29:37) Amen. Marc (29:50) ⁓ What kind of intentions would you bring to that? Paul (29:51) Mm-hmm. I don't know today. I'm sorry to cut you short on this question, but I don't know today. Marc (30:00) So I think I have a good idea what I'd do for mine. I would go, yeah, fuck off. knew he say. Exactly, exactly. I plan to sell this company. I just started shortly before my 46th in October. How's that sound? Yeah, it's great, yeah, exactly. The fastest exit in history. Paul (30:03) Go ahead, mean yours is closer too. It's easy for you to say, I mean that's yesterday. Marc (30:23) would I mean, like with kids, it's always really challenging, but assuming that if I could ⁓ bring intention. I think I would love to go deeper into a creatively themed sabbatical. I want to go to see art and ideas that inspire me, places that inspire me, and then I want a break of doing a magical spot to do nothing and just either write or manifest what the next big creative act I have inside of me is. Paul (30:43) Mmm. Marc (31:00) And I'll tell you this, this is one of the great glories of COVID. think everyone has interpreted COVID one way or the other and had different experiences of course. I didn't have kids at the time, obviously Paul you did. But it was me and my wife in the Yucatan in Mexico in some jungle city and just relaxing there. And that to me, and had to work unfortunately, but I also took off from time to time. And I was like, this feels like the energies were distant. Paul (31:25) Yeah, yeah, Marc (31:27) I Paul (31:27) yeah. Marc (31:28) felt like my creative chakras opened up and I said, I'm I'm coveting that feeling again, of all the feelings. Paul (31:34) Yeah, dude, am, I mean, 100%. I'm with you. think the big one to me is kids is a big limiting factor in a sense at the moment, but it's also the big opportunity. And I think one of the things now, I know it's hard for you to see it at the moment, right? And, but to me, the two things that really collided was the fact that Marc (31:44) Yeah. Please tell me the opportunity. Paul (32:01) As you said in the beginning, right, now is the right time to do something. We are in our early mid forties now, at the peak of our careers and of our might, if you want. And actually I talked to a headhunter this week, actually at the end of it too, which is really scary. So you don't want to step out and do something, right? I think that's also, do nothing. And I think that's scary. On the other hand, Marc (32:26) Wait, the headhunter said you're at the end of your prime? Really? Paul (32:29) Yeah. Because it's getting, mean, it was a really scary one that, as, as, know, the scarcity, you know, the market was very scarce in the past years, but it's not anymore. And, you know, as companies are scaling back and we went basically in the third year of zero growth in Europe, you ⁓ know, ⁓ very old people and very young people in that saying and very old being, you know, Marc (32:41) ⁓ Paul (32:56) late 40s actually already starting and very young below 30s. So basically you only want to hire people aged between 30 and 42. That's kind of the golden age. We are already past that prime. So but anyways, let's assume we are in the prime because that's what I thought up until the day before yesterday. ⁓ Fuck that. But also it is the prime days with the kids and we've talked about this a lot of times, right? So Marc (32:59) Wow. Crazy. Yeah, fuck that person. I reject that. Yeah, Paul (33:24) In Marc (33:24) yeah. Paul (33:24) a sense that that in by the time I'm 50 they are basically gone So so to me those two things really collided in my head and they still do to a certain extent But then they also don't because I'm cocky enough to think that my days are not over by the time I'm 50 But I know that my days with the kids are gonna be over or different by that time So that's the one thing I know for sure the other thing I don't know for sure So I went for the thing that I know for sure that that's the time with my kids is limited and that's why I want to use it Marc (33:50) Mmm. Paul (33:54) So that's kind of the one thing. And the other thing I think I would like to do on my 46th birthday, because it's in July, I would also like to take my kids to somewhere new that they don't know for two months in their nine week summer break and to go travel and experience. And if I do this on my 56th, I would go and I would take a BMW GS and I would do a trip through Marc (33:54) Mmm. Paul (34:22) I don't know, around the world for half a year. That would be awesome. I mean, I have that inside of me, but it needs those fuckers to grow up and get out of the house. Marc (34:24) Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course. Everyone wants to do that. ⁓ Alright, fair enough. Yeah. Paul (34:36) So a lot of things about intentions. All these beautiful intentions, though, I think have one unfortunate limitation. Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. Marc (34:45) Money? Yeah, money. What about it? Paul (34:55) Listen, I think there's two dimensions to it. One is, and I think that's a healthy one, I've always thought I would, you know, I think everyone should have a stash of cash somewhere that you can live for 12 months without, you know, having to worry. I mean, that's kind of like, just smart. The other thing is then spending it though. I mean, and you know it now too, right? I mean, you're in your first month of, you know, of entrepreneurial... Marc (35:07) Yeah. Paul (35:22) living and that means no income for now I guess. Marc (35:23) Yeah. was supposed to adjust my lifestyle. It hasn't really worked out for me. It's kind of crazy. Paul (35:30) Just give it a few more months without money coming in. It suddenly is happening. And it really is. And I think it's a healthy one. But it's really difficult to live off of something if you're not used to it. It really sucks. And frankly, I we're all talking about this is an option when you have the money. When you don't, you don't. I mean, it's also that simple, right? Marc (35:34) Yeah, and then suddenly it's really good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Of course. Of course. Paul (35:54) and you have to cover your bases and your kids and all of this stuff. So it is all coming from a very privileged position where we can do stuff like this. I think that's clear. Marc (36:02) Well, apparently, just by the stats here, 49 % use personal savings, while 41 % rely on investment dividends. clearly this is a type of demographic. Or 36 % funded through high-ticket freelance consulting projects during the break. They do one or two, two about that. Paul (36:12) That's a great study. Was that done in Switzerland? Or Norway? I have to drink on this one. ⁓ yeah, I know a thing or two about that. That is great. But you also need to be able to do that, right? And I think there is this other thing that... And let's kind of focus it on a career break in our time of life, like in kind of midlife. ⁓ I think it's easier when... you've done something and have achieved something or sold a company, then when you have just recently struggled or kind of feel you actually haven't achieved what you wanted to achieve. And that was a big luxury for me that I realized that I had done lots of the things I wanted to do. Obviously, there's always more you can, but I was actually very, very happy with the state of my career and where I was. it was and still it wasn't easy to let go, mostly because of the ego part and the... Marc (37:00) I Paul (37:23) conditioning of the doing and what society thinks and my parents thought fuck me my parents my mom basically asked me every time she called me so you have a job you have a job mm-hmm so here we go yeah Marc (37:23) Yep. my god. ⁓ my god. Stop it, mom. You know, that resonates, the way. So I think actually, by the way, what you're drinking looks so good. I this is the color of this wine. Save me. Paul (37:45) Dude, I I have to, I have to, yeah, I can't save this. Maybe tomorrow I go and finally buy this Christmas present I wanted to get you, you know, where you can conserve a bottle of wine. But it's 280 bucks this thing, it's like really expensive. Yeah, no, but it's gone now. Marc (37:56) yeah. No, fuck it dude, we just drink it. ⁓ save me a bottle. You can get another one, yeah? Anyway, listen, what I want to share is I've met so many people who need a sabbatical. More than anyone, top of the list. But it's because their lives are just, they need that reset. And their lives are... Paul (38:06) Yeah. Marc (38:23) But sorry, the logic that they're putting out, of them, they're like, I'll do a sabbatical when my life is in order. And I'm like, guys, that's kind of when you need the opposite. You do the sabbatical to order your life, right? And that's the kind of crazy thing that I really wish for those who are closest to me. You're like, god, this is exactly what they need. The other thing is, nah, nah. Paul (38:31) Yeah, it's almost the other way around. they should be doing here. Marc (38:53) But look, money is obviously the luxury that allows for this. Though I think, I always used to joke I have a plan B, which was if I fail at life, lose my career, get divorced, lose my kids, they have to pay me, whatever, however, I'm not the only one like that. But I actually think the most ideal location is Southeast Asia anyway for sabbaticaling. It's so cheap. you can, it's so exotic, takes you to a place that's so radically different or the, Mexico, like South America. Paul (39:22) Yeah, I mean, but let's be realistic. Like most of the people that would probably are listening to us and that have the same situation like we have. Number one, I mean, I don't have a partner, but you have a partner who has a job, right? You have kids who don't go to school yet. Yeah, they go who don't go to school yet. So you could go to Thailand, but in two years time or next year, I don't know when Felix is there, you can't take them out anymore. Marc (39:38) That's true. Thank God. Paul (39:50) So and then when you're your mid 40s, usually you have kids that go to school. So let's face it. You are kind of not going to go to Thailand, man. Yeah. For many reasons. And and so the thing. Marc (39:51) No. True. True. Bursting my bubble. Paul (40:08) I am here, And I think though, there is what really frustrates me is when I see people who are actually sitting there, maybe just got fired or just for whatever other reason are in front of that amazing opportunity and they stress and actually have the money and then stress to go back to work. And I'm like, no fucking way, This is just so fucking stupid. Marc (40:19) Mmm. That I buy, 100%. Yes. my god, they're pretty much my constant idiots of the week. I agree. Look. Paul (40:36) God, thank you. I didn't have an edit of the week. This is my edit of the week. Marc (40:40) Totally, totally. you know, I think anyone listening to our 30 plus episodes knows that we're human beings that prioritize experience above everything else. Life is too short to everything, you know, to wait until you're 60 or 70 to go off that thing. So when you have that gift of time and you have the funds, lucky enough to have the funds in the account, how do you not give that to yourself? Like that's the ultimate thing. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paul (41:05) No, mean, it's beyond me because and I think and frankly, money is the only reason not to do it if you don't have it. If you don't have it, because if you have it, let's go through this. I mean, your ego, I think it's time to start understanding that and go beyond that. Right. I if you really need to feel productive, what society or your mom thinks exactly the same for your career. I really do think that Marc (41:16) 100 %! ⁓ my god. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Paul (41:35) in most in 99 % of cases or 100 % is going to be better. Plus, I also think that people are starting to look at these things in a different way. And you Marc (41:45) And I completely agree. They're evaluating them differently. Paul (41:48) Exactly. And unless you go on a one year splurge to, I don't know, to loom, which probably is not going to help you much, or maybe it is. But as long as your intention is clear and set and is really coming from within you and is a healthy one, I think your career is going to be better afterwards than it was before. So there's really no reason not to do it. I it's that simple to me. What other things could there be in the way under obstacles? Marc (41:55) No. I think people will always invent reasons not now until they, yeah, fuck those reasons, they're terrible. Exactly. And you know what's funny? Paul (42:18) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So fuck them. Fuck those reasons. Yeah, and do it for at least, that's the other one, do it for at least six months. Marc (42:30) ⁓ yeah. You know what? Paul (42:31) If you can. My 12 were amazing. I mean, it's just for the fact that you get every season of the year. I mean, I got 32 skiing days. I was, you know, by the sea for like a month. I mean, I had a pretty amazing time. Marc (42:37) Hahaha! Oh my God, just stop. We should close this on this idea, this parallel. My parents are on some bougie cruise off the coast of Australia on their way to Bali right now. They're in a macro retirement. However, the funny thing is they're packing it in now. And it's so interesting. My dad, unfortunately, he has a bum lag. Paul (42:54) They're on a macro retirement like mine. They're also all the time. ⁓ Marc (43:11) hard for him to move around. I can have it seeing, yeah, I can go to Melbourne, but seeing some of the other cities are not tough, you know, and like, he's like, yeah, you know, I'll just stay on the boat and this shit. I was like, okay, cool. And he had no way of foreseeing him. This is just an obvious lesson. First of all, there's the stuff, the generation where that's such a fucking foreign concept, it's going to sabbatical, you know, that's just bananas. But the second thing is to like, yeah, and the second thing is like, know, one thing we're very painfully aware of, it's like, Paul (43:17) Mm. Mm. Totally. Marc (43:39) You don't know what the future holds and sure enough, when he thought he would be most active and running around, has unfortunately been forced to walk on a cane. it's not to use that as, I mean it's a simple story, but I think to me it shows how when you have an opportunity in front of you that's so clearly there to further taking, take it because you just don't know what the end will happen. It's very simple. Paul (44:08) Yeah, I think we can break, as we said, we can break it. If you have the opportunity and the money, the trigger is there. You go for it. Do it for at least six months. Do it with an intention that is clear. Fuck what everybody thinks. And that's it. End of story. Marc (44:09) and you have a fresh mindset. Yeah. Duh. Now I'm regretting not going on one. God damn it. All right, I have to sell this thing quick. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Paul (44:28) No, but the right time will also come. The right time will come. But I think we tell us very often that it's not here yet. That is true. So you will regret it. Marc (44:35) No, it's Okay, that was ⁓ fun. ⁓ Paul (44:39) Alright, ⁓ Terminator and idiot of the week. I have an odd Terminator, I'm gonna share it. Marc (44:48) You do or you don't? ⁓ good. Paul (44:49) I do have one, but it's very odd. I did something today that I did very often in my sabbatical because in my sabbatical to actually feel better about all the money I'm spending, I started selling a lot of shit. I sold bikes and I sold shit that was standing around. And in Austria, we don't have eBay, we do have eBay, but actually we have the Austrian version, which is called Willhaben, which is an amazing, which is like want to have. Marc (45:06) Okay. Want to have, yeah. Paul (45:19) And it's the same thing as a marketplace and it works so perfectly. And I've sold so much shit through this thing for free because all the marketplace stuff is free. it's great brand. Wilhaben is fucking genius. think it works. And someone picked up my outdoor couch today that I wanted to get rid of. know, whatever. Czech. Awesome. I love it. It's my Terminator of the week. Very mundane, but I really made my day. Marc (45:31) Mm. Mm. All right, it's cool. Very mundane. Okay, I got a great one. ⁓ To make up for your mundane one. Okay, so no, no, just kidding. By the way, we should do a selling on eBay episode. I would like to see what you'd actually sell. Hey, Terminator of the Week. That would be fun. ⁓ I got a pro tip, which I'd never done before. Paul (45:51) Better man. Okay. Screw you. Yeah. Go ahead, come on. Next time I go through my feed on Wilhaben and show you. Marc (46:14) which is to take the kids to the Bronx Botanical Garden ⁓ for the Orchid Show. And ⁓ the woman who told me that, she's like, you know what, this is an extraordinary show, the best I've ever seen. And I said, really? I said, OK, I guess I'll go. And so it's called, it's Mr. Flower Fantastic's Concrete Jungle was the theme. Literally, there's a guy called Mr. Flower Fantastic, of course, known for transforming flowers into bold sculptural works of art. Anyway. Paul (46:21) Wow. He Mm-hmm. Marc (46:43) What he did with flowers was sew bananas in this beautiful botanical space. I can I just, I gotta show you. Like he put new classic New York scenes full of flowers. You see that? Like a taxicab, flowers. Yeah. Holy shit. Look at that laundromat. Like really fun. You know, like that's a New York scene. Like we always have laundromats here. You know, pizza full of flowers and everything else like that. I mean, this is like. Paul (46:54) What? Wow, ASMR. Amazing. Cool, yeah, yeah. God, I'm hungry. Yeah, don't show me this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (47:13) Super beautiful ideas and ⁓ I gotta say, if you're in New York or if you're visiting New York, the world is so crazy, so much turmoil, I didn't know I needed something like that and it was just so beautiful. Good for the soul. Mr. Flower, fantastic. Terminator, idiot. Paul (47:28) Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Listen, that's that's amazing. That's my I had made it is is the stereotypical person who has enough money enough triggers to actually go on a sabbatical and doesn't. I'm I'm on I mean, it's so good. It's so on point for today. It's there. Everybody who is that idiot knows anyway, so that's it. It's short and sweet and to the point. Marc (47:38) Hahaha! That's your. my god. All right. ⁓ I rarely don't like calling out my wife as the idiot of the week, but I gotta tell you, like, yeah, exactly. When you leave a place, whether it's an airplane, whether it's a restaurant, whether it's a car, I think of three things. I call it, let's see, PKW, right? Phone, keys, wallet. It's very simple, right? Like, do you have your phone? Do you have your keys? Really? Paul (47:58) Oof! Oof! Well, I don't. I don't. No, I'm terrible. I had this running gag with my brother-in-law when we went skiing because it's always me who loses things, right? And I'm like, it's not true. I forget things. I never lose them because they always find a way to come back to me, which is true. Marc (48:23) my god. ⁓ Right. Fair. Fair. Well, okay. Compared to last night, we go all the way up to the Bronx, go to a really nice Italian restaurant in the Bronx of Little Italy, know, they for the Bronx tail, yeah, real cute shit. Of course, make it all the way back down, drive an hour or so, and the barista's like, ⁓ do you have my phone? I was like, no, I don't have your fucking phone. What do think your phone is? Exactly. I was like, call it. Turn around, right? No, no, no. I was like, here are the keys to the car. I'll see you, right? Unfortunately, she lost all her. Paul (48:47) Cute. ⁓ See you turn around. Marc (49:06) She had to let go of all her big night plans last night, sitting in New York traffic to get her phone. I just feel like PKW, phone, keys, wallet, simple. Paul (49:17) Yeah, no, it's that easy, but I mean, listen, I'm with Vera there. I'm an idiot too. I mean, if you call this an idiot, I mean, I am the biggest one, but I usually am anyways, On that bombshell that I'm the biggest idiot, you know, we can't, it's nothing news. Again, guys, episode 33 and nothing is new. I'm still the biggest idiot. You know, I love it. All right, guys. As always, see ya. Marc (49:21) Ha ha ha. Well, yeah, exactly, exactly. Nothing's new. All right. Well, lovely chatting with you. Good one. Bye.