We Thought We Knew Wine — We Were So Wrong | Ep 46

Marc (00:05) Welcome to Guys Like Us. ⁓ whether you're an old timer or newbie to our show, you've found the podcast about all things that you experience when you approach that certain age, your prime, midlife. When you feel it in your bones, when you feel it in your mind, and you know, you're thinking about big shit. That's how I feel. ⁓ you're gonna hear stories about family, leadership, relationships, friendships, fun nights out. This episode in particular is really about friendship and dreams, and we're excited to bring it to you. I'm and fun, exactly. Maybe we had too much fun because we're actually recording this after the episode, after our time in Fajau, because we kind of jumped right into it and had a lot of great wine. ⁓ but I'm your host today, Mark. Paul (00:37) Have fun. Marc (00:55) joining from ⁓ New York where it's nice and sunny and beautiful. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an artist, a father of two. ⁓ and I've got Paul here. Paul (01:05) Hey guys. Yeah, so calling in from beautiful Vienna today as well. Dark outside though. yeah, former executive, now self proclaimed entrepreneur, I guess. Wine lover, father of three, and very also wine lover. We both are, and I'm afraid you if this is really the first episode you're listening to, how can I put this delicately? W we are usually not that drunk. Marc (01:18) Also a wine lover, yeah. Paul (01:34) We did ⁓ we used to also open ye we did open our used to open our episodes with a glass of wine and and ⁓ we shared what we drank. So we thought at one point when we visited our friend Markus Volbic, who we spoke to a couple episodes ago about making his life dream come true to become a winemaker, we were out there, ⁓ we were having a good time, and he said, you know what, let's do some blind tasting. Marc (01:35) Ha ha. If you wanna hear drunk Paul and Drunk Mark, this is great. Paul (02:03) And I can tell you that much, we totally sucked. And I am not sure yet whether I will edit out the absolutely embarrassing things that I said and whether I will give Mark you know his credit or not. But if you wanna know, you better stay on and tune in. Marc (02:15) Mm. Cheers. Paul (02:28) This is the episode we were looking forward to ever since we started the the the podcast. Exactly. We just didn't know what we were looking forward to, but now we know. it is An episode about wine. And we are sitting here, in beautiful Wachau, which is I would say the major wine producing region in Austria. Very famous for Marc (02:47) I hope that Mike is picking up this beautiful sound of just wine being poured. Paul (02:50) Yes, there is wine being poured. We're looking at the evening sun coloring the rocks of Wacau just opposite the blue Danube. Markus (02:59) Can I forward this podcast to our tourist agency? Marc (03:02) You Paul (03:03) You can and ⁓ absolutely you should actually. ⁓ and they should sponsor us in fact. And so now Marcus Purdue's something and it looks actually very beautiful and we're gonna try to see what it is. Just as a quick intro, Marcus is the owner ⁓ and winemaker of Landguts, who has a beautiful area here in in the heart of Wachau, really. Marc (03:09) do that. Paul (03:32) But not only here, also in Kamptal, which is a region that is a bit northeast of here. And we are gonna try some. And we did an episode and you guys maybe wanna listen back about Marcus's story and how he became a winemaker Markus (03:44) Now in this podcast I'm really hundred percent only the winemaker. You are feels really great. Yeah, feels very mighty. Paul (03:51) I can yes, and I can feel your ⁓ so ⁓ let's try this. Marc (03:53) Energy just changed. Markus (04:00) Perfect. Thank you very much, Paul. we are sitting here on our terrace in Bachau. And actually the wine we have in our glass comes from Wachau and it's a very old grape variety. ⁓ but it's an Austrian one. It's not so so some new one and not a super fancy one, but a very one. Now it's not a P V one, it's not a fungus resistant one. And ac actually we are Paul (04:13) Super difficult. Marc (04:25) Golden color, yeah. Markus (04:27) yeah, thank you for for describing it a little bit. You're right, it's in golden color. So so w when the color is, you know, very deep and ranging from yellow to orange, so w what would you suppose? The darker the wine colour of a white wine. Marc (04:42) I always think Chardonnay. Markus (04:44) But yeah, but I'm thinking of the making as well. Marc (04:45) Out of the making, too. Markus (04:47) Yeah. ⁓ the candidate is winning. So actually this wine has ⁓ completely fermented on the pills. So for two and a half weeks. Paul (04:47) Longer on the skin. And spontaneously, obviously. Markus (05:01) It's yeah, spontaneous so we only do spontaneous fermentation because we are biodynamic ⁓ minef Paul (05:07) We're gonna talk about this in a second. Markus (05:09) And ⁓ so you have a little bit of citrus in the beginning, ⁓ and then a little bit it's a little bit smoky in the end. ⁓ Paul (05:19) It's amazing. I have no clue though. Marc (05:22) Wait, really? I have no clue. mean... Markus (05:25) Yeah. Marc (05:27) No, it can't be a gruna. No. And it's not a reasoning. It's not a charnay. And it's not a solve. It's not one the major ones. Markus (05:32) No Paul (05:36) The Vice Burgundy. Markus (05:37) It's i it's actually a not very popular one. What is it? it's called Fru Rota Veltlina which is not related to the Gruna Veltlina, although the name would give some hints, but it's actually a a a breed or a mixed breed between ⁓ Silvana and Rota Veltlina. you do. Okay. Paul (05:58) Okay, but okay. So g great. Thank you for ⁓ letting us complete. Marc (06:02) You started really hard. Markus (06:03) yeah, yeah, so Fruta Vlina normally is not a very exciting grape variety because it's it's getting ready quite early in beginning of September, normally with low acidity Low structure, you know a little bit l lighter. And actually so we have fermented it on the peels to give it a little bit more structure. We harvested it quite early, so I think the acidity is nice. So this is how can I say a variety of food that I really like. Paul (06:31) Okay, that's I mean it tastes awesome, I think. I I really love it. Just because we jumped a few things here and let's let's try to take a few steps back. You are doing all of your wines in a organic way. Markus (06:47) Yes. Bi actually organic slash biodynamic. Yeah. Paul (06:51) Le we need to explain all of this. But first of all, why? And what's the main difference as to what you get in your supermarket? Markus (06:58) actually there is a a woman responsible for that development. there are two women. Actually two women responsible for that so first what the first one is my mother. Right because actually she introduced me in the world of organic farming because actually she was cooking in her kitchen. Thank you, Mom. with organic products long before there were this big you know retail brands like Jana Türlich in Austria or many others. ⁓ and the second one was ⁓ the a very great lady from the wineyard Geierhof. Where we that we visited when I was studying business. So if you want to learn more about my life number one, listen to the last podcast. and but in in my life number one, actually we we visited her wine yet, and she was already at that time she the the wineets were organic and she was explaining that in such a great way and she was talking about her her her wine and about the plants and ⁓ in such a nice sensitive way and then I was really touched ⁓ and I really thought, okay, wow, if you if you should think so much about your wine yards, about your plants, about you know the interdependence between, you know, what's up in the sky, what's down on the ground, weather, moon phases. So and and and in a very emotional way. ⁓ so so so this was really impressive for me. And and from from that time on, I always knew that when when when I But when I do something like this I o it was clear for me that it could only be organic. Paul (08:31) But why? Isn't that just like a, you know, fancy label to be organic? I mean, that green leaf on the bottle, isn't that just to hike up the prices? And it's just a lot of bullshit. Markus (08:41) I think that's a bit of a marketing perspective you're ⁓ talking right now. So I I'm talking you know, I'm I'm more fixed on a production perspective. Paul (08:48) But then I I I I know a lot of people who say, you know, fuck that, you know, I mean it's it's a joke anyways, right? It's like those organic in in in brackets, ⁓ zucchini we get from Spain, they're not organic. So but what is the real difference? I mean, why would you would you ever drink a non organic wine? Yourself? Markus (09:05) I think so in general I would say it's a higher consciousness in what you're doing. That's what I said. So if you're labeled organic or not, generally people work in organic or bi biodynamic, you I think it's a higher level of consciousness. So higher level of thinking about what is what is the weather, what what the weather will be, how is the soil, how is my soil? So dig into your soil, seeing, you know, what what is it really made of. And ⁓ really watching very carefully, very closely your your your plants and And ⁓ and realizing that actually many, many things that you need in your farm or in your agriculture, you already have on your farm. So that's what it's all about when it comes to organic and especially when it comes to biodynamic, is that you really think of your farm as an organism where you can be very independent and very resilient if you want to, ⁓ when you realize that you can do a lot on your own. So Fert so that you don't need any external fertilizers, for example, because you produced your own ⁓ dung made out of cow dung, for example, sorry compost. ⁓ especially in times like that. I mean we have seen now the dependence of and ⁓ of ⁓ f fertilizers and so I think it's a high level of resilience, it's a high level of you know, I'm in charge of my business, I I I I'm I'm not depending on so many Paul (10:11) 30%. Markus (10:26) ⁓ external factors and yeah and is it high level of Paul (10:31) Produce? Is it high to produce for you? Markus (10:34) so actually we we we started like that. So I say that no, but of course what what is harder is you know all the spraying stuff because we're not allowed to spray anything that intrudes into the the the the plants. ⁓ how do you say? ⁓ so actually ever everything we spray needs to stick on the leaves and is not allowed to go into the plant. So that's what one of the basic principles of organic farming. So when we spray something against the fungus. Marc (10:38) No Markus (11:02) It's only on the leaves. so if it is raining heavily it's washed right. exactly. So so there of course it's it's more work. but I think definitely think it's it's worth it. And it's especially when it comes to organic wine in Austria, it's really widely appreciated. So I think we have a thirty percent ratio now of organic wine producers in Austria. That is I'm not sure, but Marc (11:07) Then you're back out the next day. And so it's like, mean, I ⁓ well, I totally appreciate the organic movement, but, and I feel like in a climate like this, you know, I think you can get higher yields, right? Versus like some other climates where maybe with this little bit more humidity, where it's a little bit trickier to make Paul (11:50) Also we also made it trickier because we planted hectares and hectares of the same grape, right? I mean these monocultures also make it right. It's very hard in monocultures to do organic, right? Marc (12:01) Right, right, right, right, interesting. Markus (12:03) I think when it comes to the yield, you know, that's a big difference. So ⁓ of course when you use artificial fertilizers, when you when you do when you try conventional farming, right, ⁓ of course you can have higher yields. but you're also more exposed, I think, to catastrophes because when plants are depending on a certain treatment, where they are depending on fertilizers, when they depending on certain things against or Things against fungus or against any other diseases when they're really depending on it and you have some kind of an interruption or I don't know, w weather extremes, whatever, they are not as resilient normally as ⁓ organic plants are. Got it. So cool. I think resilience is actually one of the especially in these times, one of the main aspects. Imagine. And sorry, and to say it and it tastes good. No, I mean this is really the most important thing because I am not doing organic farming. Marc (12:52) Stupid question. Markus (13:00) So I one thing I one principle for me that was always clear is I'm I'm not producing a wine that I'm not really convinced of or a wine that is not really tasting good and I No, no, it's not tasting good, but it's organic. So that was not my approach. But but I think that you can produce more complex wine, more elegant wines when you do it ⁓ organic. That was actually my approach. Marc (13:19) stole my question. Paul (13:20) That is amazing. And does a and and and can you get a good organic wine for ten Euros? Is that producible? Markus (13:28) ⁓ you can get a very good wine at Lancochena Erde for ten euros for example, a very good rose or ⁓ a very good grunabellina. ⁓ Paul (13:37) Here we go. What a segue, what a segue. Markus (13:39) Because we we don't want to be a very exclusive brand, you know, we want to be a brand that is affordable somehow also for so our prices range from ten to twenty Euros and I hope that we will, you know, also exceed the twenty Euros, but we always want to have some affordable wines in our portfolio. Marc (13:46) Crazy. Paul (13:57) Well maybe we should try to Marc (13:58) Europe is ⁓ No. No? Paul (14:05) To me it's a reasoning. Markus (14:07) Mark, do you have any suggestions? Paul (14:10) Both are wrong. Markus (14:11) Haven't I eat anything so far? Marc (14:13) I really thought it was a gruner. Markus (14:16) Okay, hundred points. Go to Umar. Fuck Yes. ⁓ yeah, it's it's it's ⁓ Gruna Veglina or on the East Coast, I everyone's a gruna. It's a Gruna. ⁓ yeah, it's a it's ⁓ it's no no no Paul (14:27) The Heilingstein. Marc (14:32) This has been the fuel of many summer nights. I know exactly what it is. Markus (14:35) The fuel of many summoners. Very nice way of explaining. ⁓ Paul (14:39) It should be the new wine. Summer fuel. Markus (14:41) That's a good one. ⁓ but but but we have a a sparkling wine that it's called Summer Breeze. It's close. Close. Paul (14:49) Close enough. Marc (14:50) Actually, you know, the most famous, the best selling wine from Long Island is from Wolfer Estates from the Hamptons. It's called Summer in a Bottle. Markus (14:59) Really good. Very romantic. Marc (15:02) It is also, I think, recent. Paul (15:05) Are we gonna edit this out that I went wrong with it Marc (15:07) No, no, we're not ending that motherfucker right. And it's the best thing ever. Paul (15:10) Are you aware that we're gonna edit this up? One hundred Markus (15:13) ⁓ okay. But but to to ⁓ give Paul and and ⁓ some credit, yeah. So it's actually a grenolina with a nice level of acidity, it's quite dry, ⁓ and it's from you know, again from Danube's sandy soil. So at some point when it the grinolina is like this, some people would say that it tastes a little bit like a riesling. Marc (15:22) Some credit. Markus (15:42) Some burden. No. Paul (15:45) Stop dwelling on my failings here. ⁓ Markus (15:50) Actually But actually just that you know ⁓ so actually the wine comes from so so we're sitting in the wine yard where where the wine comes from. So actually that's from the from the wine yard on the right. So because we're sitting in a restaurant in the middle of wine yards ⁓ in very cozy and ⁓ beautiful Wahau. Beautiful and actually yeah. Paul (16:00) I felt that's exactly so connected to this. what is the difference between a seven euro bottle and a fifteen euro bottle? And the difference from a fifteen euro bottle to a fifty euro bottle and from a fifty euro bottle to a hundred and fifty euro bottle. Markus (16:28) So I think generally it it depends in what mood you are or what kind of wine you'd like to drink. So if you want to drink, you know, a more fresher wine, younger wine, perhaps higher level of acidity, ⁓ you can really enjoy, I would say, a a bottle for I don't know, eight, nine, ten euros. So I'm only talking about organic, ⁓ organic wine of course. And ⁓ and and I think then in the middle class you have wine which is already a little bit riper. A little bit lower in the C D D, a little bit more balanced, perhaps, ⁓ a little bit smoother. ⁓ and then the more you go up, you know, normally also the the stronger the wine is. ⁓ perhaps you have a reserve, ⁓ which is something you would normally drink to ⁓ a dish ⁓ that you would drink ⁓ I don't know, in front of your television on a nice evening. ⁓ so And then you have the reds, of course, they go p up to endlessly. ⁓ where it's, you know, also the younger fresh red wines, you know, you have less oak normally, the more expensive they they are. Normally they have more oak. ⁓ they are more ripe, they have less tenants. So young fresh red wines normally can also have more tenants because tenants the the level of the tenants goes down during the the ⁓ Aging process. The aging process, thank you very much. So yeah, I think I think it really it really did independent. Paul (17:58) But but we're saying it's okay, you get can get something really decent in Europe. I mean, for ten euros that is organic and that is fresh and crisp and nice and then if you go higher it means also that the wine took more work because it was in the you know, it it's ⁓ Marc (18:13) times. Markus (18:14) It took the wine more well. ⁓ Marc (18:16) Yeah. Markus (18:17) Because yeah, of course, because you know it's over the years, you know, also the characteristics are changing because normally you're Paul (18:18) But it also means your capital is Markus (18:26) Because as a winemaker as a as a winemaker it's your risk because it's you know it's actually money lying in your cellar and you don't know how it will be, you know, how the market will develop or whatever. Paul (18:35) I think that's very interesting. Marc (18:36) risk is the right word. And it's funny, like my uncle, the winemaker I was told you about has this great ⁓ phrase, he's like, you know, why making is a partnership with Mother Nature. And unfortunately, she's the senior partner. Yeah, but that's, that's the risk, right? yeah, exactly. But I think, you know, I think the diminishing returns question is where where it gets really kind of interesting, like, you know, where Markus (18:50) That's a beautiful one. That's a nice one. Marc (19:05) Where is it that you, um, where it's the, I think, I think I can get up to 50 bucks, maybe a little higher or 50 euros, I should say. Right. And then if you put a 50 or 60 year old wine for me and 150 year old wine. Markus (19:11) Hm. Paul (19:19) I don't know. I mean I don't know everything from a greenery there, so Marc (19:23) no. Markus (19:23) Actually, my my my my my greatest challenge is that I really like wines from Burgundy. Yeah. But actually, you know, my limit for a really good Burgundi is I would say 60 euros. I know that this is actually Marc (19:28) Yeah, that's it. Paul (19:39) Especially for the organic ones too. Marc (19:41) Thanks. Markus (19:42) Not even the middle class in Burgundi, but but still that that's my f psychological barrier, I think. Yeah. That's nice. Because because we have such a n nice price value ⁓ relation actually in Austria. You can get s really good wine for a really Paul (19:57) What's your favorite grape to what cellar. To cellar. Because it's I don't know w and why? I'm not gonna ask. Markus (20:08) I fave I think you know I have to it's it's not because actually our wine marketing urges me to to say so, but Gruinalina actually, you know, I think it's is really one of the nicest great. To sell her. It yeah, to sell it because it can can have so many different shapes, you know, really depending on the soil, depending on the type of fermentation, and depending if you put it into ⁓ a steel tank or if you put it into a barrick, ⁓ Marc (20:19) Really? Markus (20:37) So I think Grunovellini is really a nice ⁓ variety to play with. ⁓ yeah. Paul (20:43) Sorry to interrupt, but I think it just said something super interesting and I wanna go super basic on this. Can you describe in i very shortly like how does a wine come from the grape into our glass? What are the basic steps? Markus (20:57) So when I describe it, I've described it of course from a biodynamic point of view, so which means limited intervention. Actually, so we want to bring the grape into the the bottle, into the glass without a minimum of intervention. So actually we harvest the grape, ⁓ then we separate the the grapes from ⁓ you know the the the the wooden parts, then actually we press the grapes, ⁓ then we have you know the sweet liquid. ⁓ we let it in the cellar f overnight so that you know sediments, dirt, whatever can move to the ground. ⁓ and of next day we will put it into a tank. And then actually ⁓ we hope that you know all the the yeast that is already in the cellar will start the the fermentation. Sure. ⁓ and if this is not happening, you know, we are just taking some wine fr ⁓ or some a dose from a wine that is already fermenting to you know yeah it's a nice term yeah to jump start the the other one and then you know fermentation starts it can take two weeks it can take three weeks we have wines that you know mm ferment over I don't know four months even ⁓ really depending on the grain Paul (21:57) Yeah. You stopped that process at one point somehow? Markus (22:19) And so so normally actually w the we have the challenge the other way round. So normally I I I I don't like to to stop it because you know w we we like it when it's dry and when when the wine has fully fermented. But no what can happen is you know that it gets stuck in fermentation. Paul (22:35) Can I ask so dry means that because the fermentation is using the bacteria is using the sugar and the juice as a fuel. Exactly. And that's the fermentation. And the longer it ferments, the more sugar it takes out, then the drier it. Markus (22:48) Yes. Exactly. That's a perfect explanation. Yes. So so normally the you know there are some one makers who really have some kind of a higher level of residual sugar. But actually we we don't we we like it more dry, I would say. Yeah. ⁓ but but this year for example we had two Rieslings that actually have are higher in residual sugar because they just stopped fermentation and we we we tried to warm it up a little bit, so that's what what we allow to do or what we allow ourselves to do. Marc (22:49) Okay, you're also scientist, know that. Yeah, I can taste it that way. Paul (23:16) Because heat works for the bacteria, right? Markus (23:18) There can be again a jump starter for for fermentation. But if if this is not working, you know, okay we we just leave it like that. So we have two very nice Rieslings with a higher level of residual sugar, but Paul (23:30) Okay. Markus (23:32) Tank. and then sorry, and then yeah, we so we we produce natural wine as well, but actually we ⁓ also use sulfites. So ⁓ you can do ⁓ so yes, but there is a commitment in biodynamic farming that we really want to reduce the level of sulfides. So some wine makers are working without sulfites, which ⁓ I think is really cool, but actually we use a certain level of sulfides to stop to finally stop the fermentation, stabilize the wine actually. ⁓ yes, and then it it rests in the tank for Paul (24:09) However long it to a barrel then maybe ⁓ Markus (24:12) Exactly. So what do there are some wines that we ⁓ move into ⁓ a wooden barrel for example, so big cask for example, thousand liter, five hundred liter, or a barrick, with two hundred twenty five liters. really depending on on ⁓ Paul (24:26) Very nice. See? Marc (24:28) think that's a great transition by the way you're making me thirsty. Paul (24:32) Yeah, can we agree? Markus (24:34) of course. Marc (24:35) see that. Paul (24:36) Very Marc (24:38) no, wanted to. Yeah, because it just a pivot. Paul (24:38) good. Do it? Yeah. Old versus new. Marc (24:45) No, no, I'll just do it. ⁓ my God, I'm excited for this. Okay. This is the third one, right? The third and the last. Paul (24:53) Yeah. Markus (24:56) come on Pa. Come on Pa' Paul (24:58) Holy ⁓ I can say the same thing that I said before. Markus (25:02) No taste it you won't. Marc (25:05) think you're right. Just from the nose. No, I was gonna, you maybe wanna was gonna rethink this. no, no, it's not a recent. Hell no. This is interesting. Markus (25:16) So actually we have two lines of wine. So the the the first line is called s ⁓ variety rebels, where we actually play with different varieties. And I can say that this wine falls into this category. I'll have to this is a play playful thing. No, it's a single grape wine, but it's ⁓ P V. Yes. So fungus resistant variety. So actually we play a lot with fungus resistant varieties because it helps us to you reduce the overall amount of fungicides. Marc (25:27) This is a covariate. This is an Austrian varietal. Markus (25:46) It's actually I think a Swiss German one from Fribourg. Freiburg. Yep. Marc (25:52) Germany Then I should know this. I studied it for a year. Markus (25:58) Yeah. But it's not a survival but it's a it's a very popular fungus resistant variety in in South in in Alto Dice, in South Türol, in Switzerland, in Austria, where Southern Germany. Paul (26:07) Where's original grape in? What? Where is the original grape popular in? Markus (26:13) Actually you won't really know the original grape because the original grape is o so actually it it's a it's a breed of already a further Paul (26:22) Okay, just a quick break for our listeners. So what you are realizing now is that Mark and I actually have no fucking clue. We like Markus (26:34) We do. But that's ⁓ Paul (26:36) Up until today, I think both thought we do. We do. Markus (26:39) But but seriously. No, but but seriously, guys, that's the best way of drinking wine. Don't use your head. So you know, wine is such an is it that I don't know if this word exists, but an overheaded ⁓ business because you know people have so many things in their mind. What do they have to think of? Where does it come from? Is it dry? Do it do it taste melons, apples, whatever. Wine is it should be an emotional product. So you should have a relation Marc (26:40) I my guess yet. Markus (27:07) to a wine or not, it it you y you should like it, it should cause certain emotions. so w the best wine drinking is without using the head, really. Marc (27:18) love it. But ⁓ since you gave me enough clues, because honestly, I would be clueless, I would have said, just knowing where I am, Savannah or Weisburg-Under. Markus (27:28) burgundy is a good thing. It's a good it's a good direction. So actually it's the the grape is called souviner gris. So it's ⁓ a new name. and you know it well. And it's when when it comes to the taste, aroma, it's it's somehow not in the DNA, but when it comes to taste and aroma, it's somehow related to Pinot Gris. So ⁓ Gau Burgunder, ⁓ Pinot Grisha. Yeah, somehow. Marc (27:37) So. So close. Markus (27:55) And ⁓ and yeah, so it was it was ⁓ in small ⁓ barrels, so in small burig. ⁓ has been for over one year. And I really like this gr variety because there's a very nice level of acidity. You have like Burgundi varieties. Marc (28:11) fun with this. Honestly, this might be the most beautiful one you've poured. The most fun. look, I thought we'd love to close actually all of these on these passion ones with just a little simple game just to kind of help us understand a little bit your tastes. So ⁓ this is real simple one. So kind of binary choices here. Let's start with old versus old world versus new world. Where are going? Markus (28:18) So listen. ⁓ word. Marc (28:41) Yeah, specific region, country. Markus (28:45) Austria and France. Marc (28:46) I said one or one of the other pick pick pick No, not possible. Okay. Okay a specific bottle inside that Markus (28:49) Not possible, not possible. Yeah, Pinot Noir in any shape. Marc (28:59) Okay. All right. ⁓ Natural wine versus classic winemaking. Markus (29:04) Mm. I like natural wine with a classic style. Yeah, that was my life number two. So listen to the last podcast. Paul (29:16) Great. Marc (29:16) Okay, low alcohol or full bodied? Markus (29:20) Mm full bodied. Marc (29:20) What about it? Okay. Orange wine versus rosé? Markus (29:23) orange wine. I'm only producing an a rose because Christina, my girlfriend, is forcing me to And it's good and it's great. It's really it's really great. It's really great. Marc (29:32) Really great. Paul (29:33) Yeah. Marc (29:34) Oaked versus un-oaked. Markus (29:36) If oaked, only a little. Please don't kill a good Chardonnay with too much oak. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, yeah. Especially with American oak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Marc (29:48) Totally, Which brings me to indigenous grapes versus international. You had to... Are we with Gruner, Blau, Fankes? Markus (29:54) Mm I I would say Yeah, indigenous indigenous grapes, but also, you know, the fungus resistant varieties. So I'm open as long as it's is a a progress in agriculture. Okay. Marc (30:07) Then the last one I would say is like James Stockling is coming over for dinner. ⁓ Or Robert Parker, pick your version of that. He's going into your wine cellar. You have a choice between either a serious hype wine or a hidden gem. What are you serving him? Markus (30:30) Cheapest one I have. Marc (30:32) Fucking cool. Best answer.